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Amsterdam
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:08 pm

If all of this goes ahead, and KL can grow a bit in the coming years, then the ratio of capacity within the group will change towards AF:KL 60:40.

Last week Transavia Holland also unveiled plans of opening bases outside of the Netherlands.

But this crisis is not something thats literally good for the Dutch though, without a strong and profitable AF, KLM also wont make it in the long run.

This plan B is a lose-lose sceneraio for everyone: for the unions, for AF and for KLM.
Shrinking like this in France while all the competitors are growing steadily every year, every month actually, is nothing but deadly.

And these cuts might not be enough even...
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:36 pm

Yaaaaaaaay...I think that more strikes are probably in the future at AF...can't wait. Besides, with LH showing them up, they have to up their game  
 
kl838
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:46 pm

I think Air France needs to bite the bullet and just cut as much as they need, the actions today were unacceptable in this day and age. If they continue down this path, I don't see the AF-KLM group surviving another 5 more years. This is the time where the company should be making the most money like all their competitors are, and they are bleeding. Even UA is making money, so why can't AF? The new products have brought so much positive reviews and the rebranding has lifted the image up, but these staff members continue to tarnish the image. When are they going to realise if there is no airline, there is no job? A complete cultural overhaul is needed company wide, instead of flat out rejecting offers, why not bring some ideas and suggestions rather than acting like spoiled brats.
 
CDG
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:59 pm

Very Sad...

If 5 routes are axed as indicated to the middle east & asia i believe it must be:

1- CGK will stil be served by KL

2- BOM so Mumbai will lose it's only Skyteam carrier flying West but codesharing on 9W

3- SGN still reachable on codesharing by VN

4- CAN also reachable on codesharing by CZ

5- KUL already announced served by KL

Cheers,

CDG
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:14 pm

Well, it's easier to cancel a foreign product (Boeing) than a domestic one (Airbus) with lots of internal employment affected ...

In fact they should dump the A380 and building an efficient long haul fleet around the 77W, A350 and 787 which are easier to fill and generating more revenue. Cancelling a plane which can help to drop the (trip) costs in the long term is not a smart move.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 55):

Come on man, you're expecting too much smartness from AF here.. let it go..
 
Planeflyer
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:20 pm

Tycoon, GDP growth in Europe has been on downward slope for 30 years. This has been especially so in France.

This fact goes along way to explaining what is happening to AF. AF needs business travel which is closely linked to growth.

Over here we are now following the same path.

Reagan said it best; To the government the private sector needs to be taxed, if it keeps moving, regulate, once it starts to fail, subsidize it.

French business is being starved by these policies.

And those looking for work fare no better. Ask any French business and you will learn, due to the regulations involved they do everything they can to avoid adding staff.
 
ek241yyz
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
They start in November 2016.

L/n 500 is the first 787-9 on the production list.
Travel often; getting lost will help you find yourself.
 
toxtethogrady
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
More details to come.

As in the AF crews ripped the shirts off the backs of the executives. They were lucky they got to keep their pants.
 
anstar
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
The reality is reform has been delayed too long. Thus the reforms are less ideal and more brutal.

Exactly... if you look at ho ruthless IAG have been in harmonising their backend systems and aircraft etc it makes AF/KL and even LH look stupid. The reality is their competitors in europe (IAG, LH, EZY) are much better managed and have much lower costs... so they need to adapt or die.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 26):
The unions are already complaining loudly about unfair competition (from LCCs and the M3).

how are the LCC's unfair competition? The problem is AF management, staff and unions have failed to realise that aviation is a different ball game in 2015 than it was in 1980.
 
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seahawk
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:15 am

AF is French Icon, if nothing helps it will be put under state control. The unions know this.
 
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malaysia
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:57 am

I would like to see UTA and AOM return
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
aryonoco
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:31 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 61):
AF is French Icon, if nothing helps it will be put under state control. The unions know this.

French mentality is foreign to me, but are you saying that in 2015, French taxpayers are willing to pay for a loss making airline out of their pockets?
 
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seahawk
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:37 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 63):

French mentality is foreign to me, but are you saying that in 2015, French taxpayers are willing to pay for a loss making airline out of their pockets?

When they are paying their taxes no, but when their is the chance that AF would close and the workers fired, then yes.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 63):
French mentality is foreign to me, but are you saying that in 2015, French taxpayers are willing to pay for a loss making airline out of their pockets?

I would not be so surprised. In Germany, we are stilly paying for the coal subsidies in the Ruhr area, where coal, which is not competitive due to the difficult mining conditions in 1.000metres depth, has been subsidised since 1958.

This stops now, but before, this was a political issue and took decades to remedy. The French are traditionally more open to government bailouts, but in this case, I am sure this would happen in other countries in Europe, too: If Lufthansa were to go bankrupt, I am sure there would be at least some public support for it, as a national airline is of strategic importance as well.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:01 am

Quoting ek241yyz (Reply 58):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):They start in November 2016.L/n 500 is the first 787-9 on the production list.

And it's a leased bird from Aercap, originally destined for KL, but was reallocated to AF when KL announced some of their restructuring.

Pretty sure this one cannot be reallocated to another airline anymore. IIRC there is an 18 month lead time when Boeing needs the final airline specifications. Fortunately, the basic specs like lavs etc were the same for AF and KL 787s, so this one may very well end up with KL again. KL will probably defer or cancel one of their 2017/2018 deliveries direct on order with Boeing to balance things out.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
tcyvr
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:20 am

Quite unfortunate. They will start shifting more traffic towards KL by cutting the routes and frequencies. Clearly side effects of the ME3 dominance.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:31 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 37):
This also might help EK with their 787/A350 decision. If the delivery slots are far enough out, could the 789s be switched to 7810s or is it too late for that?

Emirates doesn't need early delivery slots because DXB is full and the capacity issue won't resolved until they move to DWC in 2025.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
TC957
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 55):
In fact they should dump the A380

I'm surprised it's taken 55 posts for that one to come out.
For some on here, every airlines's problem can be fixed by grounding A380's  

I feel it is high time for KL to divorce AF. There is clearly going to be pain felt in rescuing AF but they can look to Skyteam partner AZ and see that a much-troubled airline can be turned around and saved.
Meanwhile of course, the ME3 will be rubbing their hands with glee and no doubt upping service frequencies.
 
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zkojq
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:35 am

65 replies and only one person blaming A380s? I'm impressed!   
First to fly the 787-9
 
Nouflyer
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 21):
The more a government restricts, regulates and taxes private property the more we all become impoverished.

Yeah, right.

If that is the case, how come Germany has no working poor and the USA has around 60 million?

And would anyone choose to fly United or American or Delta ahead of Lufthansa or Swiss or Austrian?

Pure unadulterated market forces in aviation basically destroy quality.
 
andrej
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:43 am

Some people were really angry or the management is so loved that everybody was piece of them. http://cdn.salzburg.com/nachrichten/uploads/pics/2015-10/orginal/trotz-mitarbeiter-protesten-air-france-baut-2900-jobs-ab-41-60506982.jpg
 
tcyvr
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 70):

Yes it seems like the A380 is a "White elephant" only EK has made it work for themselves.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
What is the unions end game? Specifically, with AF's high losses, what are they trying to accomplish that is achievable?

Seemingly, this:
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Photo © Sunbird Photos by Don Boyd



Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 54):
In fact they should dump the A380

Are they leased? They'll still be obligated for the duration of their agreed term.

If they're not leased, then where will they go? As noted on the other recent thread, no one yet really knows what the aftermarket value of the A380 will be yet...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LGAviation
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:56 am

Wonder whether KL will find a way not to get dragged down by this whole AF misery and if it's not separation can't wait for KL to start operations as KL France from CDG
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
OO-VEG
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 68):
I feel it is high time for KL to divorce AF. There is clearly going to be pain felt in rescuing AF but they can look to Skyteam partner AZ and see that a much-troubled airline can be turned around and saved.
Meanwhile of course, the ME3 will be rubbing their hands with glee and no doubt upping service frequencies.

AZ and KL have been working together on and off, and recently AZ cut the ties a little bit in favour of their EY partnership.

I still think onboading EY into skyteam and getting AZ on closer ties with an independent KL could prove to be a good solution. But that's unrealistic given the history between the two airlines.

Still it woudl be best if they fix the issues at CDG and at least get a really good feeder product for the other partners in place in order to keep traffic flowing.
 
r2rho
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):
Being France (and as a foreigner who has worked in France) I have a very strong intuition that this has to do with "old style" French management, which undoubtedly must be the case in a "dinosaur" like Air France. [...]
Of course, from airliners.net perspective, it is much easier to blame unions and "lazy" workers.

Having worked and lived in France I know exactly what you mean, and yes, AF must surely be a textbook example of old style French management. And AF management has long lost all credibility, with their frequent and erratic strategy changes over the past 5-7 years (such as opening the regional bases only to close them a few months later, the hesitation on integrating the regional operation, etc). Why should this restructuring plan be believed, when all their plans of the recent past have failed? But you are on a site which is traditionally anti-union, so don't expect much love for your words. Lazy workers and unions it is.
 
TYCOON
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 56):
Tycoon, GDP growth in Europe has been on downward slope for 30 years. This has been especially so in France.

This fact goes along way to explaining what is happening to AF. AF needs business travel which is closely linked to growth.

Over here we are now following the same path.

Reagan said it best; To the government the private sector needs to be taxed, if it keeps moving, regulate, once it starts to fail, subsidize it.

French business is being starved by these policies.

And those looking for work fare no better. Ask any French business and you will learn, due to the regulations involved they do everything they can to avoid adding staff.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Can you please state your sources? The European economy, not without its problems, has sustained over the past 30 years a very high standard of living for an increasing number of people.
There are fewer persons living under the poverty line in almost all (if not all) European countries today, including France, than in the US where those living under poverty has exploded (especially post-Reagan).
So before writing nonsensical statements, please look up the facts first.
What is your economics/history background BTW? I found it astounding to read stuff like this.
 
HUYfan
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:31 am

I think KLM should abandon their AF partnership and join up with BA/IB in IAG. Air France have a long way to go to sorting themselves out, and KLM should take this opportunity to cut and run!

Kind regards

HUYfan
 
Egerton
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:44 am

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 78):
I think KLM should abandon their AF partnership and join up with BA/IB in IAG. Air France have a long way to go to sorting themselves out, and KLM should take this opportunity to cut and run!

I can't see IAG wanting any of AF, KLM, LH or SAS etc. None of these show any interest is earning the necessary rate of return on capital employed to provide shareholders with what they require. IAG might however take a look at Wizz Air or suchlike firms which are not burdened with the dead weight of history.
 
dare100em
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:56 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 77):
Sorry, but you are incorrect. Can you please state your sources? The European economy, not without its problems, has sustained over the past 30 years a very high standard of living for an increasing number of people.
There are fewer persons living under the poverty line in almost all (if not all) European countries today, including France, than in the US where those living under poverty has exploded (especially post-Reagan).
So before writing nonsensical statements, please look up the facts first.
What is your economics/history background BTW? I found it astounding to read stuff like this.

The GDP growth is in fact lower as in the US of A, but only on a total base while the US has grown substantly faster population-wise than nearly all European countries in the second half of the 20th century. The capitia GDP grwoth is very comperable between US and Western Europe since at least 40 years.
 
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CARST
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:07 am

Could this be the end to the ORY longhaul-hub? They are flying mostly to leasure destinations and French oversea territories. I guess most of this flying is purely low-cost with high Y seating. Perhaps it would be smarter to focus all flying to CDG.

Anyone knowing the numbers of the ORY sub-fleet?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 43):
my 5 predictions for route cuts in Asia/Middle East are as follows:i. RUH (SV already flies daily from JED and RUH to CDG so they can maintain Sky Team presence)ii. CAN (CZ already flies daily from CAN to CDG so they can maintain Sky Team hub to hub presence)iii. WUH- Wuhan, Chinaiv. KIX (big loss maker already)v. BKK or SGN (I say BKK though as SGN is important to maintain due to colonial ties)
Quoting CDG" class="quote" target="_blank">CDG (Reply 53):
If 5 routes are axed as indicated to the middle east & asia i believe it must be:1- CGK will stil be served by KL 2- BOM so Mumbai will lose it's only Skyteam carrier flying West but codesharing on 9W3- SGN still reachable on codesharing by VN4- CAN also reachable on codesharing by CZ5- KUL already announced served by KL

I believe that the 5 route cuts will be to Bangkok, Canton, Wuhan, Riyadh and Osaka, while Jakarta will be cut but the Singapore route it is tagged to will obviously survive. I also wonder how much longer AF will serve Brasilia.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:18 am

AF crew stays in better and more expensive hotels than KLM crew, some of them in suites.
AF and KL crew are in different hotels in the same city.
What's that for nonsense. It's much cheaper to let alle crews stay in the hotels the KLM crews stay.

This is just one example of too high costs that are not necessary on the French side.
 
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CARST
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:22 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 83):
AF crew stays in better and more expensive hotels than KLM crew, some of them in suites.
AF and KL crew are in different hotels in the same city.
What's that for nonsense. It's much cheaper to let alle crews stay in the hotels the KLM crews stay.

This is just one example of too high costs that are not necessary on the French side.

But you are asking the poor, badly payed French employees to give up privileges they earned by striking at least twice every year in the last 40 years. How unhuman!  

Typically AF. They won't stop until the company is out of business.
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 14):

Getting the airline back under state control.
Quoting seahawk (Reply 60):
AF is French Icon, if nothing helps it will be put under state control. The unions know this.

That would not solve the Problem, just increase and add additional Problems. The unions would get even more arrogant and the rest of economic sense in that Company would vanish.

but the state could not subsidize AF, it's against EU rules.

It is a shame that radical left wing unions attack Company officers. this sort f aggressive behavious is totally unacceptable. The People at KLM should get their parachutes and ready to jump out of this mes-alliance. It can only get worse.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:43 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):
That would not solve the Problem, just increase and add additional Problems. The unions would get even more arrogant and the rest of economic sense in that Company would vanish.

but the state could not subsidize AF, it's against EU rules.

It is like AZ, just with a government with even greater pull within the EU. So AF becomes a part of SNCF or so...
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting Egerton (Reply 79):

I can't see IAG wanting any of AF, KLM, LH or SAS etc. None of these show any interest is earning the necessary rate of return on capital employed to provide shareholders with what they require. IAG might however take a look at Wizz Air or suchlike firms which are not burdened with the dead weight of history.

KLM would be a brilliant addition to IAG. Like Aer Lingus it has a big presence in the UK market and like DUB, AMS could act as an overspill for LHR.

But unless there is a need for a radical restructuring of AF-KLM that results in the two airlines being separated, it's not got to happen.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 87):

Quoting Egerton (Reply 79):

KLM would be a brilliant addition to IAG. Like Aer Lingus it has a big presence in the UK market and like DUB, AMS could act as an overspill for LHR.

No
The first thing BA would do is kill KLMs presence in the UK.
 
bluesky73
Posts: 518
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 87):

KLM would be a brilliant addition to IAG. Like Aer Lingus it has a big presence in the UK market and like DUB, AMS could act as an overspill for LHR.

But unless there is a need for a radical restructuring of AF-KLM that results in the two airlines being separated, it's not got to happen.

Totally agree LHRFlyer. I was reading down this post thinking what a shame BA/KL never linked up then red your comments.
Maybe if we see a AF/KL divorce KL could join IAG, would be great addition to the group.
I know it's early days and AF have to battle unions but surely KL must have doubts.
This will certainly test their partnership.
 
TYCOON
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:59 am

Give it a rest guys, KL is not going anywhere... It is not a "partnership", it is one company AFKL... People have said this time and again, in very clear English, and yet it always seems like the BA/IAG pom-pom girls are the least able to comprehend this...
Geez!
 
fcogafa
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:00 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 89):
No
The first thing BA would do is kill KLMs presence in the UK.

Well that's not how it is working with Aer Lingus, in fact they are increasing flights using DUB as a hub from all over the UK
 
Egerton
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 87):
KLM would be a brilliant addition to IAG. Like Aer Lingus it has a big presence in the UK market and like DUB, AMS could act as an overspill for LHR.

About 15 years ago, the pre-IAG BA tried to form an alliance with KLM, but the discussions ended without agreement.

I think it was the first serious attempt to consolidate the multiple national airlines in Europe, many of which airlines today continue to struggle. As it happens, the later BA - IB consolidation into IAG was initially a financial disaster but IAG stuck with it to make it a success. In hindsight, the BA - KLM alliance may have been a mistake as the management team from the Netherlands and that of BA were both competent. This would have set up the opportunity for endless internal squabbling whilst the needs and wants of the (external) customers would play 2nd fiddle.

[Edited 2015-10-06 06:01:17]
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 88):

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 87):

Quoting Egerton (Reply 79):

KLM would be a brilliant addition to IAG. Like Aer Lingus it has a big presence in the UK market and like DUB, AMS could act as an overspill for LHR.

No
The first thing BA would do is kill KLMs presence in the UK.

Unlikely. One of the reasons for IAG buying Aer Lingus is they want to capture traffic from Executive Club frequent flyers who usually transfer via LHR for long-haul connections, but choose DUB instead for transatlantic flights. The marketing strength of the Avios frequent flyer currency would be extremely powerful for KLM in the UK market.
 
bluesky73
Posts: 518
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 89):
No
The first thing BA would do is kill KLMs presence in the UK.

Well that's not how it is working with Aer Lingus, in fact they are increasing flights using DUB as a hub from all over the UK
[/quote]

Umm I didn't quote the above it was Amsterdam but totally agree with fcogafa 

[Edited 2015-10-06 05:43:32]
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 50):
Shrinking like this in France while all the competitors are growing steadily every year, every month actually, is nothing but deadly.

The alternative which the unions are fighting for, stick head firmly in sand carry on as before and hope the competition goes away is far more deadly.
 
SCQ83
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:14 pm

I don't see how KLM would be such a great addition to IAG. There are major overlaps with BA and IB to North America, Latin America and Asia.

AMS wouldn't work as a new runway for LHR to Asia the same way that DUB does it for North America.
 
factsonly
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 96):
AMS wouldn't work as a new runway for LHR to Asia the same way that DUB does it for North America.

Be interested to know the logic behind this statement, as AMS already serves as a 3rd runway for not just LHR, but all of BRITAIN to:

- Asia - 21 destinations
- Africa - 18 destinations
- Europe - 150 destinations
- Middle East - 13 destinations
- Latin and Central America, plus Caribbean - 23 destinations
- USA - 17 destinations
- Canada - 5 destinations

......with some 8.5 Million pax flying on 25x UK-AMS routes this year.

With a similar UK-DUB route network, DUB serves some selected US, Canada, ME and Africa destinations only.
 
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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:21 pm

France just had their bond rating cut. Would the people really want it further threatened by nationalizing AirFrance?
http://m.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4556dca4-5eb1-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):

That is an important detail that subsidies are not allowed. But the belief that the government will (again) disrupt the process emboldens the unions.

This is a bad situation. Management is not communicating well and the unions refuse to allow progress.

I personally would like to know how AF plans to turn around. Their market capitalization is puny. Serious question, could they be taken over? This looks like another project for EY. {Duck}

A no to nationalization:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0S00MY20151006

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RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):
but the state could not subsidize AF, it's against EU rules

In my opinion, Air France doesn’t need a state subsidy, they need a American style bankruptcy. The problem appears to be their costs are just too high and they have been unable to bring them down. With competition from the ME3 and LCC they are at too big of a disadvantage to be competitive and profitable.

Of course, French bankruptcy laws are not as corporation friendly as their American counterparts. If the management doesn’t improve and unions agree to some cost savings, I don’t see how AF will be viable in the long-run.

Does any Frenchman know what happens to pension and other obligations AF made to its employees in the event it folds? Does the government pick those up? In the States, when a company is in dire straits (usually bankruptcy) Unions have to balance getting as much as they can without putting the company out of business. If the company folds, the government Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) insures that all employees get a portion of the promised pension but it is usually only a limited amount and the PBGC does not guarantee the retiree healthcare benefit or other plan benefits.

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