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PRAirbus
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:59 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:47 am

KLM should part with AF; AF needs to put its house in order...KLM profitability could be jeopardized by AF's failures! KLM probably regrets being tied up with AF...
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 150):
KLM should part with AF; AF needs to put its house in order...KLM profitability could be jeopardized by AF's failures! KLM probably regrets being tied up with AF...

Very short view! Just think what have been the benefits of KL with AF since the merger?

- network development, strong brand visibility
- key role in a huge alliance
- fleet development
- traffic growth
- very smart strategy of separating the business focus area: northern Europe, East Africa, Asia, USA etc.

KL itself would have been weaker.

AMS and CDG remain two major hubs in the world and having a dual offer, is a unique and great strategy which is working very well. There are few examples in Europe, except FRA and MUC.
(in comparison of MXP and FCO).
 
bleudefrance
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:27 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 150):

That would be a mistake, IMHO.

AF helped KLM a lot when the Dutch were in trouble, so now it's the reverse.

In an Alliance/Marriage/Merger, the profits should be shared as well as the losses.

If in the coming years there won't be any tragic accident involving the AFKL Group, then i'm sure that the group will be back to profits.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 152):


If in the coming years there won't be any tragic accident involving the AFKL Group, then i'm sure that the group will be back to profits.

Back to profits is not enough. To invest and expand a lot of profit is needed, not just profit.
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:11 pm

Even ignoring the question about what effect AF447 had, taking your opinion as correct reflects the problem AF currently has.

Quoting bleudefrance (Reply 145):
The group is still suffering through that terrible accident. They have done a great effort of financial consolidation in recent years but unfortunately the good results have not been achieved yet.


If they have gotten their house in order but the results continue to be poor, what is the next step? AF is burning through their cash on hand and they need to start making a profit (a real profit not an operating profit) or they are going to run out of money at some point. If what they have done isn’t enough to allow them to become profitable, I believe some further action is required if AF is going to continue to be a feasible non-state supported airline.

Do you think AF just needs more time to let previous reforms take effect or that further organizational changes/cost cutting are needed?
 
bleudefrance
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:27 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 154):

They need both more time and further cost cutting, they have made a deep restructuration in recent years with redutions of costs and cut jobs and they will need to continue in the future but it's not easy to face the strong unions in countries such as France or Germany.
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:57 pm

Flew with them twice, thought they were awful. It's hardly surprising that people choose to spend their money elsewhere.
 
kl838
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:22 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 156):

Flew with them twice, thought they were awful. It's hardly surprising that people choose to spend their money elsewhere.

I don't know when is the last time you have flown them, but as a someone who has constantly flown them for the last 20 years I have had mostly excellent flights. Yes, there were one or two crew members that were a bit sour, but Air France has a stellar product in all classes. CDG is also improved greatly for AF connections, and quite delightful, it amazes me how AF gets so much more crap thrown at it. Out of all major European airlines, British Airways is the worse in my opinion. Their product is mediocre in all classes, with LHR being much more of a pain to transfer through. Don't even get me started on the American carriers, besides Delta the rest are just awful.

Air France needs to work on its cost structure, eliminating the excess fat and to boost worker productivity. That can't be done with the ridiculous demands of the unions who would rather kill the airline than actually negotiate. The corporate culture needs to change, and the management structure as well.

[Edited 2015-10-14 16:27:39]
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2929
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 157):
Air France needs to work its cost structure, eliminating the excess fat and to boost worker productivity

Do crews doing the LAX runs still stay at the Le Meridien Newport Beach???
 
kl838
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:22 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:29 pm

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 158):
Do crews doing the LAX runs still stay at the Le Meridien Newport Beach???

I would think so, even at BA I ended up running into the crew that served me in First at the Sofitel Philadelphia! Did not expect BA to put their crew in 5 star hotels either. Don't see why a 3 or 4 star can't be sufficient enough.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5907
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 156):
Flew with them twice, thought they were awful. It's hardly surprising that people choose to spend their money elsewhere.

Air France is very nice to fly with. I don't think it's first and foremost a lack of passengers wanting to fly with Air France that is the problem. It's the high cost structure of the company.

[Edited 2015-10-14 16:57:01]
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2929
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting kl838 (Reply 159):
I would think so, even at BA I ended up running into the crew that served me in First at the Sofitel Philadelphia! Did not expect BA to put their crew in 5 star hotels either. Don't see why a 3 or 4 star can't be sufficient enough.

Sofitels often leave a lot to be desired... and a 5 star city hotel isn't quite the same as being bused for over an hour to a resort-like property in a very chic area outside of town when somewhere local like Santa Monica, Redondo Beach, or even Long Beach would do.
 
delimit
Posts: 840
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:08 pm

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:55 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 158):
Do crews doing the LAX runs still stay at the Le Meridien Newport Beach???

AF has a long history with the chain (they started it, and owned it for 20 years); and I rather doubt they pay anything close to the market rate.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2929
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting delimit (Reply 162):
AF has a long history with the chain (they started it, and owned it for 20 years); and I rather doubt they pay anything close to the market rate.

Quite correct- crew contracts are primarily for hotel cash flow and the new owners will want a decent ROI.
 
l'espace180
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:10 pm

"Air France management says they are ready to avoid the attrition plan" (article in french):
Le Monde

To sum up the article: the management and unions have been meeting regularly since last Friday.
BOTH parties (or all parties, as the unions are not one unique party) agree that the adoption of Perform 2020 (growth through expansion+economy making) is a better solution that the Plan B (attrition).

Until October 22nd (next key Central Committee), negotiations are to continue.

Let's see what comes up, but it sounds very likely that they work something out to make Perform 2020 acceptable for everybody.

There is still some media/political/social fuss about the arrest of the 5 employees suspected of assaulting the managers last week. The arrest is considered by many as way too spectacular (some consider they have been treated as terrorist). I hope the debate about their trial does not interfere too much with the negotiation about the future of the company!
 
l'espace180
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: AF To Cut Jobs, Long-haul Fleet And Orders

Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:19 pm

Another article in French, a bit longer, from last week, explaining how management and pilots started negotiating in a much better way:
http://www.lemonde.fr/economie-franc...s-concessions_4786166_1656968.html

And an important element: the negotiation with Boeing and/or AerCap for cancellation of 787 only concerns 5 frames out of the 37 in order for AFKLM (25 from Boeing / 12 from AerCap)
No big event, except that you can write sensational headlines out of it! And this cancellation is also subject to the maintain or cancellation of the Plan B...

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