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TYCOON
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Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:55 am

AF's headquarters were stormed by union members today as the Board took the decision to lay off 2,900 employees.

Shocking photo of the Head of HR at AF climbing over the fence having literally lost his shirt in the mayhem!

http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2...lote-transport-greve-syndicats.php

[Edited 2015-10-05 03:56:29]
 
qf340500
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:00 am

If this is true, I know why I sincerely dislike these kind of (not all, mind) Unions!!!!
 
a320fan
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:02 am

I support unions, but it appears they are not using common sense here.

What a great look for an airline already with a safety image problem.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting TYCOON (Thread starter):
Shocking photo of the Head of HR at AF climbing over the fence having literally lost his shirt in the mayhem!

Just remember, these people could be serving you coffee on a flight next week
  
 
TYCOON
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:09 am

Footage of the incidents... shocking!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py9sFED91js
 
SCQ83
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:10 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 1):
If this is true, I know why I sincerely dislike these kind of (not all, mind) Unions!!!!

It is France, it is still a democracy and even with their issues have higher standard of living that neoliberal utopias like those of some Asian city-states  . Of course it will not help them to reach the #1 stop in The Economist's "Economic Freedom Index", but common people have other priorities.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):

Just remember, these people could be serving you coffee on a flight next week

I am actually next scheduled to fly AF on Wednesday and again on Friday.
 
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moo
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 1):
Unions!!!!
Quoting TYCOON (Thread starter):
union members
Quoting A320fan (Reply 2):
I support unions

That's not a union, that's a mob looking to carry out a lynching and should be treated as such.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:21 am

Will the people who directly attacked him be fired?
This cant be tolerated.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:21 am

Air France is to file a complaint for aggrevated assault:

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr..._Air_France_central_works_council/
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:24 am

This will really not help the unions in the public eye I guess.
Even if only two guys are directly responsible for this.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:29 am

Wow... Just wow.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
Just remember, these people could be serving you coffee on a flight next week

I hope the small number of individuals involved are dismissed and quickly. Violence has no place in today's society.


Lightsaber
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MileStalker
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
Quoting TYCOON (Thread starter):
Shocking photo of the Head of HR at AF climbing over the fence having literally lost his shirt in the mayhem!

Just remember, these people could be serving you coffee on a flight next week

Only if you have the misfortune of flying AF/KL next week.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting moo (Reply 7):
That's not a union, that's a mob looking to carry out a lynching and should be treated as such.

That looks more like it, indeed. CFDT is condemning the violence.
 
bennett123
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:25 pm

Just do not be rude to the FA!!!.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 14):

Hey maybe it were some though guys from groud personnel, probably not a couple FA's on high heels.
 
bennett123
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:39 pm

Frankly, this would not encourage me to chose AF!.
 
LJ
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting MileStalker (Reply 12):
Only if you have the misfortune of flying AF/KL next week.

This is an AF issue only. No strikes expected at KL.
 
PH-TVH
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:01 pm

France. Need to say more?
Shame those unions still live in 1990.....
 
DXTraveler
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:22 pm

Seriously...why is anyone shocked by this? This is who these people are. And not just in France. Don't hold your breath for anyone to be fired. That's part of the problem, too much tolerance for this kind of behavior.
 
motif1
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:35 pm

What are people supposed to do when everything else fails?
Viva la revolución!

M1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
bmacleod
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:48 pm

Any word of flight cancellations yet?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
blueflyer
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:53 pm

It is apparently the first time in company history that management is talking about terminating employees, as opposed to voluntary departures, buy-outs and early retirements in previous rounds of staff cuts. This may explain (but certainly not justify) the violent reaction.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 15):
Hey maybe it were some though guys from groud personnel, probably not a couple FA's on high heels.

You're probably right, but I don't want those guys handling my luggage either. To be honest it does seem like Air France employees are a bit spoiled. They have some of the highest wages in the industry, don't they? They need to accept cutbacks like their collegues in other airlines.
 
ogre727
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting motif1 (Reply 20):

What are people supposed to do when everything else fails?
Viva la revolución!

I am with you 100%.... so people at the top fuck up... year after year.... and then thousands lose their job.... Am I defending violence? am I pro-unions? I am not... but a big part of me smirked when I saw them climbing... shirtless...
I am between the devil and the deep blue sea
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:28 pm

The french have one of the least-rational labour markets in the world, where direct striking action is preferred over negotiations. It not only damages individual companies but also the economy and general reputation of the country as a whole. It's like staff have this enormous sense of entitlement... You see it with the farmers especially.
Base: BRU
 
irelayer
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:39 pm

I'm not condoning this type of behavior, but all of the union bashing on here is disheartening. Not knowing the particulars I can't comment on if this stuff is justified, however, it is not unexpected in France...

That said, AF is in a boatload of trouble. I don't think they can really survive the long term trends in the EU aviation market without taking some drastic measures. What they need to do is clear, but I doubt they can actually execute it in France.

FYI, For anyone interested in the history of labor unions in the United States, I would suggest at least a skimming of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States", for some perspective. There is a lot of stuff in there that puts this stuff to shame.

-IR
 
TYCOON
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
FYI, For anyone interested in the history of labor unions in the United States, I would suggest at least a skimming of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States", for some perspective. There is a lot of stuff in there that puts this stuff to shame.

Read it, loved it! One of the best books on U.S. history in my view, and I have read quite a few! (A bit off-topic, but had to congratulate you on citing this opus!)
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):

A rational response. The reality is AF must adapt and the government, management, and the unions are all doing this poorly.

I'd like to hear how AF could adapt considering the rejected offer to increase productivity. FR, U2, IAG, and others won't go away.

Lightsaber
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
all of the union bashing on here is disheartening.

Sadly too common. Unions wouldn't exist if corporations were such a perfect world for employees.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 27):
Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
FYI, For anyone interested in the history of labor unions in the United States, I would suggest at least a skimming of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States", for some perspective. There is a lot of stuff in there that puts this stuff to shame.

Read it, loved it! One of the best books on U.S. history in my view, and I have read quite a few! (A bit off-topic, but had to congratulate you on citing this opus!)

  
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:54 pm

If I were one of the folks over at Schipol watching all this carnage; I would seriously be looking at the future for KLM in this relationship with this basket case called Air France. What a disgrace.

If you are an AF or 'Skyteam' customer; would you really want a member of this rabble serving you on an flight; maintaining your aircraft or handling your baggage ? I wouldn't.

I suspect some of the board @ KLM will be actively wondering what on earth they have done teaming up with AF. Perhaps someone @ KLM should give that nice Mr.Walsh a call @ IAG and see if KLM might be able to leave AF and Skyteam and join BA and 'Oneworld'. A much more natural partnership for BA and KLM IMO.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
Just remember, these people could be serving you coffee on a flight next week

Not if they're among the 2,900 soon to be dismissed employees!
 
luckyone
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 31):
Not if they're among the 2,900 soon to be dismissed employees!

Their actions likely just made the selection of said employees that much easier. But I get it, they work but hard they're largely low-skilled workers who will have a hard time finding well-paying employment.

[Edited 2015-10-05 09:54:48]
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:59 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34445379

What a disgrace. You loose all credibility when you treat people in such a fashion, sit around the table and talk for as long as it may take, you don't attack someone for holding a different POV.   
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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tlecam
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 6):
I am actually next scheduled to fly AF on Wednesday and again on Friday.

I'm flying them on Friday - long haul! JFK-CDG-BLR.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
airbazar
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting DXTraveler (Reply 19):
Seriously...why is anyone shocked by this? This is who these people are. And not just in France.

  
http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/10/te...icted-top-chef-boston-attack.html#

Quoting motif1 (Reply 20):
What are people supposed to do when everything else fails?

They were given a choice. Lower your costs or go somewhere else. They chose to go somewhere else.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 30):
I suspect some of the board @ KLM will be actively wondering what on earth they have done teaming up with AF. Perhaps someone @ KLM should give that nice Mr.Walsh a call @ IAG and see if KLM might be able to leave AF and Skyteam and join BA and 'Oneworld'. A much more natural partnership for BA and KLM IMO.

NOOO!! Please!! Despite the current difficulties at AF, KL is much better and has grown quite nicely as AF's partner. IAG is the worse from a customer service perspective.
I am a Gold Executive Club member and a Flying Blue Platinum member... I think I can compare travel experience on both IAG and AF/KL, but sorry there just is no comparison.
AF/KL is an infinitely preferable overall experience and more reliable than pathetic IAG airlines.
You mention baggage handling? IAG lost my luggage three times within the space of six weeks!! Twice on IB and once on VY. With IB, my luggage left the airport even though I didn't because my flight was cancelled. On VY, they lost my luggage on 8 August from an ORY-IBZ direct flight and it was never "found". They just reimbursed me peanuts and have refused to pay me back the €100 I paid with the ticket to check that lost luggage in!! I didn't even have the luggage to check-in on my return flight for which I pre-paid €50!!!
And don't get me started on BA... horrible all around, and the food is God-awful!!
Never have those kind of problems flying AF/KL... Flying IAG, forget it... I am on the verge of cutting up my Exec Club Gold card and sending it back to Willie boy and tell him to insert it you know where.
Sorry for the rant... but had to get it out!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 36):
and the food is God-awful!!

Yes, what has happened to the quality of the catering? Have the bean counters got a foot in the door?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
Not knowing the particulars I can't comment on if this stuff is justified

In exactly what circumstances is physically attacking management justified?

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
FYI, For anyone interested in the history of labor unions in the United States, I would suggest at least a skimming of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States", for some perspective.

So because in the US history people acted poorly, its acceptable for it to happen in France today?

tortugamon
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 33):
sit around the table and talk for as long as it may take,

What if you feel so frustrated but are not part of those seating around the table and maybe don't feel properly represented by them? Not that I support violence though.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 39):
What if you feel so frustrated but are not part of those seating around the table and maybe don't feel properly represented by them?

Indeed, then replace your representatives before resorting to unacceptable actions.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 39):
Not that I support violence though.

Sorts nothing,gives you more problems. Take your frustration out on a beanbag.  
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Thread starter):
Shocking photo of the Head of HR at AF climbing over the fence having literally lost his shirt in the mayhem!

Wow, you ain't kiddin'.... Plissonnier, director of Air France at ORY, got his shirt ripped off too.



[Edited 2015-10-05 10:27:50]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:51 pm

The CEO of AF, Frederic Gagey (who learnt dutch when he was at KL), spoke on a French news TV (BFM TV), saying that these violences from a dozen of extremist people are not representing the AF staff and are devastating
for the company.

He kept very strong in his decision of restructuring the company, saying that if the pilots strike in September would had been avoided, AF would be profitable this year.

Crazy to see how pilots and a minority of the ground staff are threatening the existence of a company!
 
irelayer
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 38):
In exactly what circumstances is physically attacking management justified?

In no circumstances, physically assaulting people is a crime, and you'll notice I never said that it was justified. However labor action is sometimes justified, sometimes not, depending on the circumstances. For example, we wouldn't even be talking about this if they didn't storm the building. Now everyone knows something substantial is happening.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 38):
So because in the US history people acted poorly, its acceptable for it to happen in France today?

No, I think you missed the point. Universally condemning labor unions is easy when you don't know the history behind them, why they are important, and what kind of things have happened in the past. I'm not making judgments, just passing along information for those who might want some!  

-IR
 
747megatop
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Thread starter):
AF's headquarters were stormed by union members today as the Board took the decision to lay off 2,900 employees.

Shocking photo of the Head of HR at AF climbing over the fence having literally lost his shirt in the mayhem!

Typical Fench style i guess.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 43):
In no circumstances, physically assaulting people is a crime, and you'll notice I never said that it was justified.

When I read the following:

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
Not knowing the particulars I can't comment on if this stuff is justified, however, it is not unexpected in France...

I assumed 'this stuff' meant storming the building attacking people. Inquiring if this stuff is justified assumes that there could be circumstances where it was justified. There isn't.

Quoting irelayer (Reply 43):
For example, we wouldn't even be talking about this if they didn't storm the building. Now everyone knows something substantial is happening.

There is an open current thread about this subject and it was getting attention before this. I don't think this is good attention and will make the people of France less interested in the union's side than they were.

Quoting irelayer (Reply 43):
Universally condemning labor unions is easy when you don't know the history behind them, why they are important, and what kind of things have happened in the past.

Because workers fell into meat grinders and were made into sausage 90 years ago may not be the historical context we need when talking about $150,000/year pilots and their quality of life.

tortugamon
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:27 pm

So where was the CEO of AF at that moment...
 
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LTU932
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:43 pm

I'm simply shocked and appaled. It's people like this that give unions a bad reputation, and such a riot won't help them at all. However you may try to spin this, while most countries have the right to strike, there's no justification for a riot, even if your job is at risk.

At the risk of making myself unpopular, I hope there will be criminal charges filed and disciplinary action taken against the rioters (or at least those who were identified). I expect the unions involved in AF to condemn this riot. Strike if you want, but keep it peaceful, for your sake and the sake of all others. Don't ever riot.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
irelayer
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 45):
I assumed 'this stuff' meant storming the building attacking people. Inquiring if this stuff is justified assumes that there could be circumstances where it was justified. There isn't.

I'm not trying to argue against you, you understand that right? I don't know if you are trying to pick a fight, and of course it's up to you what you want to assume about you read, but please look at the context of what I wrote (you only quoted half of it) before you do so:

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
I'm not condoning this type of behavior, but all of the union bashing on here is disheartening. Not knowing the particulars I can't comment on if this stuff is justified, however, it is not unexpected in France...

So the very first thing I said was a qualifier for the rest of it, pretty clearly stating that I don't condone this...well...type of behavior (as I wrote). That right there should be a pretty clear indication of my opinion on the matter. Then the very next set of words was a commentary on (again, my opinion) how all the anti-union stuff on here is saddening. Then the very next sentence states that I can't comment on if this stuff is justified (which I didn't). I guess I don't really see how you derived a question (other than one you wanted to ask yourself) from a statement. And by "this stuff" I meant labor action in France in relation to the current labor situation between Air France and it's unions. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Here is a more clear version:

I don't know the issues that are at play here ("here" meaning the current overall situation that is occurring), so I cannot comment on whether this current labor strife is justified, or whether it's just a bunch of people who are afraid of losing their jobs. But I think overall, it's a sad situation for all the parties, and an indication that things are not going well for Air France. Also, from what I have seen in the past, very disruptive labor strife is not unexpected in France.

I can kind of see your point, what I wrote was ambiguous and carelessly written, but it was meant to be a general comment on anti-union sentiment in the previous replies, and I don't see what you see out of what I wrote. Language is imprecise, so I apologize for any misunderstandings   And I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really am responding to your questioning point blank. I appreciate a healthy debate on issues anytime, but I think you were reaching a little bit here. I'm sure you'll disagree, so let's just put this particular debate to rest, shall we?

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 45):
There is an open current thread about this subject and it was getting attention before this. I don't think this is good attention and will make the people of France less interested in the union's side than they were.

Of course, I wasn't playing "sides" here. It brings attention to the overall situation.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 45):
Because workers fell into meat grinders and were made into sausage 90 years ago may not be the historical context we need when talking about $150,000/year pilots and their quality of life.

I disagree completely. I believe the lessons learned from the book are still quite applicable to the labor market today, but point taken. Agree to disagree on this one?

-IR
 
airbuster
Posts: 490
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RE: Violence At Air France Headquarters

Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:07 pm

Me being a proud KLM employee and ready to do whatever it takes to keep our bluebirds in the air is disgusted by what happened today. I know it's a small group of employees but it just shows what a shambles it is over there at AF. How on earth are they going to restructure that company into an profitable one. I just hope we don't get dragged down by this mess.
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