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New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:16 pm
by winterlight

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:59 pm
by kaitak
Interesting; I think I saw this a few weeks back, but certainly good that they are moving forward with this plan; it will create lots of employment.

It now looks increasingly likely that the UK govt will approve R3. Anti-R3 ministers have been sidelined (although there remains a danger that Zac Goldsmith might become mayor of London) and now, a former Labour Transport minister has been appointed to head an infrastructure planning programme (which includes Transport). On top of that, the opposition party - Labour - is in a terminal dive with an unelectable and very left wing leader. The Tories are likely to be in power for the next decade.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:13 pm
by winterlight
Terminal 6 has finally been mentioned despite being featured in all of the artists impressions so far without a word.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:20 pm
by TedToToe
There isn't a great deal of new information here, for example, the plans to build a hotel with direct access to T2 had already been announced. However, the images are of interest nonetheless.

Along with the images comes confirmation that the Western Campus would consist of T5 and T6, whilst the Eastern Campus would be an enlarged T2. What isn't clear to me is the plan for the two satellites to the West of T2. Are they T2 satellites or a further extension of T5? Again, there is no T5D shown, so presumably the cost of relocating the fuel farm (and underground pipelines) is too great. As for the construction sequence, I would imagine T2 being expanded first, but what next? For IAG and OneWorld, I cannot see an easy transition out of T3 unless T6 is built up front. But with all of the works on the M25, how realistic is this?

Any thoughts?

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:21 pm
by hz747300
The images make it look nice. I hope it happens! I find T2 quite good, even if compact. T3 now looks terribly outdated except for the spot where CX and AA park now.

The new terminal depicted in the pictures between the existing and new runway, it looks different than previous images which seemed to showcase a similar layout to T5 even with the islands. It'll be cool to have a BCN type terminal but I'm not sure it is as efficient in a multiple runway layout.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:24 pm
by ScottB
Quoting TedToToe (Reply 3):
What isn't clear to me is the plan for the two satellites to the West of T2. Are they T2 satellites or a further extension of T5?

I'd imagine they're actually both; my understanding is that the T2 & T5 complexes would be connected via an extension of the T5 train system. And there's a lot of logic in that sort of arrangement allowing better gate utilization as well as a single centralized check-in scheme for BA in T5 rather than the mish-mash of being spread over multiple unconnected (apart by bus) terminals. Also, if U.S. Pre-clearance were to be implemented at LHR, those facilities could be shared among the several carriers flying between LHR & the U.S.

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 3):
As for the construction sequence, I would imagine T2 being expanded first, but what next? For IAG and OneWorld, I cannot see an easy transition out of T3 unless T6 is built up front.

The renderings show the enlarged T2 (Heathrow East) as well as a T2C -- and the stated plan is for T3 to close when the expanded T2 opens.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:13 am
by ba282
Looks nice. But Heathrow is already a chaotic mess. Wait an hour before flight for gate assignment, walk a thousand miles from one end of the terminal to the other, let alone a whole 'nother terminal via tram plus the miles of duty free shopping in the way with passengers cramming the already crowded corridors. Good grief. It'll only get worse before it gets better, and that's a big IF.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:29 am
by cosyr
I imagine that BA is going to use Terminal 6 primarily, so it will be interesting to see how they integrate Terminals 5 and 6. Perhaps VS should take over Terminal 4 and share it with DL/AF/KL. There might not be enough room there for all Skyteam airlines, but the expanded Terminal 2 would certainly fit.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:54 am
by r2rho
I still see the ackwardly located T4 in there, which will be even more ackward with the new runway. Why not take advantage of the opportunity to finally get rid of it and relocate it to the north, between the center and new north rwy?

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 4):
it looks different than previous images which seemed to showcase a similar layout to T5 even with the islands. It'll be cool to have a BCN type terminal but I'm not sure it is as efficient in a multiple runway layout.

BCN type terminal might look cool but is pretty bad from an airside perspective, increasing taxi times and decreasing permeability between the parallel runways. Not the best thing you want to do if you want to increase aircraft movements, which is the whole point of adding a new runway in the first place.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:50 am
by aerokiwi
So if the third runway was only used for westebound departures and eastbound arrivals, wouldn´t that go a long way to addressing noise issues for local residents?

I hope the terminal design is more practical than existing designs around London. Stansted is ridiculous - who had the bright idea of a shuttle train for such small distances? And the same for Heathrow T5 - surely a simple travelator or two would have sufficed rather than the ridiculous connector train. Meanwhile there´s still no direct access from the tube to the checkin area of T5 - a ridiculous array of confusing escalators. Ugh, a mess.

I´ve noticed too the woeful signage at all of London´s airports - bar LCY. Sorry if this sounds like a giant moan, but when you get off a long haul flight to be confronted with contradicting signage it really throws you (I´m talking directional arrows as the main culprit).

Hopefully all this will get addressed with all terminal developments. LHR is very nearly a very good airport with the current upgrades. Just a few issues and it becomes, dare I say it, enjoyable?

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:04 am
by Bongodog1964
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):

So if the third runway was only used for westebound departures and eastbound arrivals, wouldn´t that go a long way to addressing noise issues for local residents?

If only we could get the wind to blow permanently from the West, then your wish could be granted.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:12 am
by Lofty
Just for Info T5 does have travelators between T5A B and C they are located in tunnels under the TTS.

[Edited 2015-10-06 03:23:52]

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:59 pm
by BHXLOVER
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):

As discussed in another thread, pretty pictures are one thing, but I don't think this is a decision that any UK political party is likely to make any time soon. Don't forget that Boris Johnson, the conservative London Mayor has said he will lay down in front of the bulldozers.

Any decision that means re-locating maybe 2000 people and erasing from the map of the village of Harmondsworth and its 750 homes, is going to come up against a lot of opposition.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:00 pm
by skipness1E
Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 12):
Don't forget that Boris Johnson, the conservative London Mayor has said he will lay down in front of the bulldozers.

He's comdey gold but powerless let's be honest. Zac Goldsmith, the new candidate is even more of a Green. Still, as a billionaire who doens't need the wealth the jobs this would bring, he can afford to be.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:42 pm
by TOGA01
Must be way far in the future - looking at the a/c departing in pic #8.... trailing edge mounted engines.
Gotta love those PR artists. Sorry - could not resist.   

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:00 pm
by giblets
Decision is due 'before christmas' according to Osborne on the radio yesterday.
As mentioned, the big worry is Zac going for London Mayor and being very anti R3.

The report basically said you 'could' build a new runway at Gatwick, but you 'should' build it at Heathrow, they Tories are campaigning about getting the economy up and running, so picking the poor option would be against that.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:36 pm
by readytotaxi
As Sir Huphrey might say, "Brave decisions" need to be taken in the first year of any government, it then gives the electors three years to forgot about it before the next round of voting.  

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:01 pm
by TedToToe
Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 12):
Don't forget that Boris Johnson, the conservative London Mayor has said he will lay down in front of the bulldozers.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 13):
He's comedy gold but powerless let's be honest.

The Prime Minister has set up 10-strong committee to review the Airports Commission report and excludes known R3 opponents. So, hopefully, the national interest will be considered before London mayoral interests. IIRC, all of the mayoral candidates, irrespective of political party, are against R3. On the comedic side, maybe Boris could host an edition of HIGNFY from in front of said bulldozer!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ommittee-on-airport-expansion.html

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:12 pm
by TedToToe
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):
And the same for Heathrow T5 - surely a simple travelator or two would have sufficed rather than the ridiculous connector train.

Not really, no. The distance between T5A and T5B is greater than that between T2A and T2B and the travelator there is much maligned. It is probably deceptive because the shuttle train in T5 is covering that distance in a short space of time; and as for a travelator out to T5C, now that would be "ridiculous".

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:19 pm
by LAX772LR
Quoting r2rho (Reply 8):
Why not take advantage of the opportunity to finally get rid of it and relocate it to the north, between the center and new north rwy?

...because money doesn't grow on trees?

Very high cost, for very little additional benefit.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:42 pm
by SiouxFlyer
If a third runway was constructed what impact would it have on the slots at LHR?

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:52 pm
by pasu129
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10):
If only we could get the wind to blow permanently from the West, then your wish could be granted.

Too bad Mary Poppins doesn't fly in from the West...   

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:39 pm
by TedToToe
Quoting r2rho (Reply 8):
I still see the awkwardly located T4 in there.....

A future U2 base, perhaps. I can't see them wanting to pay premium prices for operating out of T2, T5 or T6.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:11 pm
by r2rho
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):
Very high cost, for very little additional benefit.

LHR hasn't hesitated to demolish and rebuild T1-2-3; they deemed the cost/benefit analysis was worth it. Why should T4 be different? There would be important savings in operating cost by having a new T4 at an adequate location, as well as better runway and taxiway utillization.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:20 pm
by YXXMIKE
So let's assume R3 does go ahead; what do Londoners complain about next once it's built and operational?

The waterway/canal at the end of the new runway are there barges and other river boats which would utilize that link? Certainly not trying to be sensational here but could that not be viewed as a potential security risk?

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:36 pm
by AirbusA6
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 16):
As Sir Huphrey might say, "Brave decisions" need to be taken in the first year of any government, it then gives the electors three years to forgot about it before the next round of voting.  

With devolution, things become more tricky. Sadiq Khan has also come out against the 3rd runway, so that's BOTH the main Mayoral candidates.

And even if you take the decision to go ahead, in reality bugger will probably have been built or demolished before the next election!

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:34 pm
by TedToToe
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
And even if you take the decision to go ahead, in reality bugger [all] will probably have been built or demolished before the next election!

I haven't seen this scenario played out in the media; we're jumping the gun here in assuming that R3 gets the go ahead. But, one would imagine, if an act of parliament in this government gave the go ahead, then it would take an act of parliament in the next to reverse it. Regardless of how much demolition or enabling works have taken place, Heathrow Airport Limited would claim compensation. I cannot recall a precedent for this, at least in the area of infrastructure. Defence procurement decisions have been reversed before, but that is very different since airports are in the private sector.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:15 pm
by rtfm
Quoting r2rho (Reply 23):
The waterway/canal at the end of the new runway are there barges and other river boats which would utilize that link? Certainly not trying to be sensational here but could that not be viewed as a potential security risk?

The two waterways are artificial rivers; the Duke of Northumberland's River (originally built to take water to Syon Park near the Thames at Isleworth) and the Longford River (built to take water to Hampton Court). Neither are used for navigation, and they are certainly not navigable around the west side of the airport as they pass under too many culverts, low bridges, etc.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:41 pm
by Scorpio
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 9):
Meanwhile there´s still no direct access from the tube to the checkin area of T5 - a ridiculous array of confusing escalators. Ugh, a mess.

Um, what are you talking about? There are elevators that bring you straight from the Tube station (platform level) to the departure / check-in level. And they've been there ever since the place opened...

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:54 pm
by jsnww81
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
With devolution, things become more tricky. Sadiq Khan has also come out against the 3rd runway, so that's BOTH the main Mayoral candidates.

And even if you take the decision to go ahead, in reality bugger will probably have been built or demolished before the next election!

The UK builds the most beautiful paper airports of anyone in the world. Every few years we get a series of gorgeous LHR expansion renderings, momentum seems to build toward some kind of dirt actually being turned over, then they have some kind of election at the local/state/national level and everyone decides it's better just to kick everything into the grass for a few more years.

This go-round is certainly following the script. We got the renderings and the momentum building, now we're starting to see the rumblings that an election may put everything out to pasture. Another five years and we'll get a different runway on the south side of LHR, and the cycle will begin anew.

There doesn't seem to be any problem reconfiguring within the bounds of the existing airfield, but God help anyone who suggests the footprint of an aviation facility anywhere in Britain might actually need to expand.

When I get frustrated about infrastructure projects here in the US, it always brings me comfort to remember there's another developed country that's even worse at it than we are.

RE: New Heathrow Expansion Images Released.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:55 am
by TedToToe
Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 29):

Indeed, short term political considerations over long term strategic policy. IIRC Manchester only got its second runway when an outgoing minister approved it on his last day in the job. Meaning that the new minister was able to say "It wasn't my decision!"