User avatar
rotating14
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:13 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...airbus-group-idUSKCN0S02MF20151006


We knew it would happen sooner or later but now the *&^% has hit the fan. We'll see how this ends up. Who knows ....
 
zkncj
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:20 pm

Does Airbus really need an 120 seater jet, to add to its catalog?

If it was to be successful, with Airbus backing. Would the aircraft require a bunch of changes to make it more 'common' and interchangeable with other Airbus aircraft?
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:23 pm

Makes you wonder, if A has the €€€ to buy into this, would they have the €€€ for a certain NEO project?
DISCLAIMER: Airliners.net is an AIRBUS forum. Boeing Commercial Airplanes, if it has considered doing so in the past, should in no way consider supporting this website.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:26 pm

If you read between the lines Airbus is aware the plane is being shopped to other companies. I would be shocked if Boeing isn't one of them. Could also be someone like Spirit. Or Lockheed even. Perhaps other companies in other countries.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:27 pm

Bomba! I can see what the deal would give Bombardier, and I think I see what Airbus can bring to the C-Series program in terms of marketing, maintenance and engineering. Too late for a common cockpit with the A320 though. But is it enough to turn hundreds of orders into thousands? Not so sure.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 2):

Makes you wonder, if A has the €€€ to buy into this, would they have the €€€ for a certain NEO project?

? They'll stand or fall on their respective merits.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
User avatar
rotating14
Topic Author
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 4):
Bomba!

Yawdy!!

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
If you read between the lines Airbus is aware the plane is being shopped to other companies. I would be shocked if Boeing isn't one of them. Could also be someone like Spirit. Or Lockheed even. Perhaps other companies in other countries.

This is true. I however think that controlling a majority stake in the C-Series would be a difficult thing to do. Since the program has been in the tank for a while and the sales do't reflect that of a well selling aircraft, what do Airbus or Boeing stand to gain from a brokered deal like this?
 
stburke
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:11 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 3):
I would be shocked if Boeing isn't one of them

Probably true, but wasn't Boeing already in bed with Embraer to an extent?

Given how successful the earlier CRJ Series was, I'm surprised how tough of a sell the CRJ1000, Q400, and CSeries has been for Bombardier. Indicative of a poor sales team? Non-competitive pricing? I have high hopes for BBD and the CSeries but man, things are looking more reminiscent of the early jet era where Douglas, Convair, and Boeing all grappled to make a new product hit a moving target.
 
tomcat
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):
what do Airbus or Boeing stand to gain from a brokered deal like this?

Let's see the other side of the coin: is it the interest of Airbus of Boeing to see this program taken over by an American, Russian or Chinese competitor (or competitor to be)?
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:07 pm

Interesting development, to say the least.

There are naturally competitive implications for a further stretch ('CS500'), as this would compete to some extent with the Airbus A319NEO.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:41 pm

Didn't see that coming, to be honest.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):
Since the program has been in the tank for a while and the sales do't reflect that of a well selling aircraft, what do Airbus or Boeing stand to gain from a brokered deal like this?

Quite a lot, actually.
The A319NEO and 737-7 are by far the worst sellers of the NEO/MAX families. The C-Series is a much more efficient aircraft for that category, albeit slightly smaller (in its current iterations anyway). But Boeing and Airbus have - according to reports over the last few years - been very successful at putting pricing pressure on Bombardier and leveraging their size to construct package deals for customers that would otherwise be looking at 737MAX/A320NEO and the C-Series. If you're looking for about 50 jets in the 100-200 seat category, it's currently a lot easier to just go with Boeing or Airbus, and have the low end slightly under-optimised. The alternative would be to introduce two aircraft types and do separate negotiations about those aircraft and their maintenance...

Now - with a stake like the rumours suggest, Airbus/Boeing could offer the one newly developed new-built aircraft in that category (and get a hand in future developments of the platform), and Bombardier would get a foot in the door on deals that would otherwise have been fought exclusively between Airbus and Boeing.
At the same time, Airbus and Boeing aren't in competition with the rest of Bombardier's portfolio.

That said I also think the only partners that really make sense for Bombardier are Airbus or Boeing, as the above is only true for those two. Embraer is otherwise Bombardier's main competitor, while Lockheed/Spirit/etc. aren't really in the business of selling commercial jets to begin with, so they wouldn't solve Bombardier's market access problem.

Will be interesting to see whether this rumoured buy-in - by Airbus or anybody else - is actually going to go ahead.

On the downside, by the way - Airbus plays a major role in preventing another aircraft maker it holds a major stake in from developing a new type. One would hope that they wouldn't treat the C-Series in the same way.

[Edited 2015-10-06 14:44:28]
42
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:03 pm

In case folks aren't reading the article, it says Bombardier has approached Airbus with an offer. It makes no mention of Airbus agreeing to any offer. There aren't any rumors about a tie-up, just that Bombardier is asking around. Honestly, I'm surprised this is news, because I would have expected Bombardier to have made these offers to Airbus, Boeing, and others a while ago.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:41 pm

The only vague commonality between the C series and Airbus products is the GTF engine which Boeing of course don't use.

The much talked about stretched CS500 would take the plane pretty close to A319/A320 size, if not range though?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:01 pm

If that be the case, Airbus may as well cancel the A319neo. The C Series could comfortably do that job!

CS100
CS300
A320neo
A321neo/A321neoLR
A330-800neo
A330-900neo
A350-900
A350-1000
A380

All are side stick controls! There's commonality besides GTFs! Perhaps Airbus could use the C Series as a template or inspiration for a future A320 Family successor.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
crimsonchin
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 12):
If that be the case, Airbus may as well cancel the A319neo.

They could as well do that now anyways, even without a tie-up with Bombardier, the A319neo model is dead.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:29 pm

Airbus confirmed there were discussions but they are no longer taking place.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...up-statement-idUSL8N1264SS20151006

And BBD followed up with a confirmation.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...us-statement-idUSKCN0S031E20151006
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
User avatar
2707200X
Posts: 6369
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:38 pm

I guess it would not be too much out of hand as I recall Airbus's development of the similar looking AE316/17/31X before the development and service entry of the A318.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:50 pm

That excitement didn't last long. At least it was a pleasant distraction from the Jurgen Klopp saga for a short while #JustSignFFS
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:03 am

Wouldn't be the first Canadian aircraft manufacturer owned by a foreign company, ironically both now part of Bombardier.

Canadair was a subsidiary of General Dynamics (Convair etc.) from the early 1950s until the Canadian government acquired Canadair in 1976. Sold to Bombardier in 1986.

And De Havilland Canada was acquired by Boeing in 1986 and sold to Bombardier in 1992.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Bombardier offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:34 am

Bombardier is stuck, going no where and bleeding cash. I doubt they will talk to countries like Russia to help them.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2133
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:51 am

Wait, maybe I'm missing something but, the article quoted says:

"Airbus (AIR.PA) on Tuesday called off talks with Bombardier (BBDb.TO) over propping up the troubled CSeries jet, leaving the Canadian plane maker facing dwindling options to keep its dream of competing in the aerospace big league alive."


sooooo, nothing doing guys.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:56 am

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 19):

The article was updated after both companies responded. Earlier versions of the article stated that neither company would confirm.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 18):

Bombardier is stuck, going no where and bleeding cash. I doubt they will talk to countries like Russia to help them.

Russia has the SuperJet and I think PM Harper burned any bridge after his harsh rhetoric over Ukraine.

Surprised no one mentioned Embraer? Is this complimentary to the E195 or in competition to it? I preferred that to the C Series anyway.

Only other possibility is some group in China. Comac maybe?
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting tomcat (Reply 7):
Let's see the other side of the coin: is it the interest of Airbus of Boeing to see this program taken over by an American, Russian or Chinese competitor (or competitor to be)?

American, likely
Chinese, less likely
Russian, beyond unlikely

Canada and America are on very friendly terms despite recent irritants on trade and environmental policy. I don't see a reason why an American player who complies with the foreign takeover rules and has a solid plan to keep every single job in Canada wouldn't be able to go ahead with a bit of smart PR. One thing perhaps to consider is the provincial politics in Quebec, which are far more protectionist than at the federal level. You can bet your baby on the fact that the Quebec government would rather throw money at Bombardier than let it slip away to any foreign interests. Ultimately however they may not have a choice in the matter since we're talking billions, not millions of dollars, and they have no legal way of blocking foreign investment, which is a federal matter. In any case this would have also been a problem for Airbus, so it's not specific to America.

Canada and China are on relatively friendly terms but any talks for a takeover of the program, or worst the company, would be under intense media, political, and public scrutiny. CNOOC's takeover of oil sands power player Nexen was a political landmine for the federal government, which ultimately approved it; it turned out the mine didn't explode but the government still set very tough rules for foreign takeovers, especially by foreign state-owned enterprises. In other words, the government made it clear Nexen was a one-time deal and is unlikely to be repeated.

Canada and Russia are literally in cold war terms, so a takeover by Russian interests is a no-go. For starters, Parliament has imposed one of the world's toughest regime of sanctions against Russia since its invasion of Ukraine. Canadian businesses have been virtually shut out of Russia by their own government, much like American and European ones were in Iran. It's worth noting that Canada is the second-largest Ukrainian country after Ukraine; in fact, there are over a million Canadians of Ukrainian origin, the vast majority of which are descendants of the post-Holomodor diaspora. This is a huge constituency for the Conservative Party, currently in power, and a major reason why Canada has been by far the most (vocally) aggressive player against Russia on the world stage--though not the only reason, as Canada has never been on very good terms with its Arctic neighbour. All this to say, there is **absolutely no way** the government will let Russian or even Russian-linked interests get a hold of a Canadian industrial heavyweight.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 6620
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 2):
Makes you wonder, if A has the €€€ to buy into this, would they have the €€€ for a certain NEO project?

It's possible that the buy-in would be substantially cheaper than that certain NEO project.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):
Since the program has been in the tank for a while and the sales do't reflect that of a well selling aircraft, what do Airbus or Boeing stand to gain from a brokered deal like this?

Depending on what liabilities the prospective investor has to assume and the level of control that would be granted, they could possibly gain two practically complete programs at a fraction of the costs that would otherwise be required if they started both on their own. It could also potentially free their current smallest model from pricing pressures in order to keep new competitors out of their turf.

This, of course, assumes A & B still want to play in the Minor League. The comparatively low orders for BBD's offerings could be attributed more to uncertainties within the company than anything else.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 14):
Airbus confirmed there were discussions but they are no longer taking place.
Quoting AngMoh (Reply 14):
And BBD followed up with a confirmation.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...bus-break-off-secret-talks-417473/

Wonder if Boeing would consider renewing a partnership with BBD through a takeover of the CSeries program...   . It might be more worthwhile than pursuing the NMA now.

[Edited 2015-10-06 20:39:11]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2278
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 3):

If you read between the lines Airbus is aware the plane is being shopped to other companies. I would be shocked if Boeing isn't one of them. Could also be someone like Spirit. Or Lockheed even. Perhaps other companies in other countries.

Lockheed Martin seems like a possible candidate. They've stated that they're exploring more civilian business opportunities since military spending has decreased. And needless to say, Lockheed Martin has the resources, the knowledge and the ability to swallow up Bombardier and make sure the C Series programme succeeds.

They would be purchasing a programme that is 99.9% complete, with 250 or so orders in the book. LM doesn't have any civilian aircraft on the market today except the LM-100J which is a niche aircraft. There probably are a lot of airlines out there, sitting on the fence about the C Series because of Bombardier financial troubles. If they learned LM took over, I'm sure we would see a lot more airlines sign the orderbook.

I really hope Bombardier makes it. The aviation world is getting a bit boring with the duopoly.

[Edited 2015-10-06 19:52:07]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 24):
And needless to say, Lockheed Martin has the resources, the knowledge and the ability to swallow up Bombardier and make sure the C Series programme succeeds

What knowledge and ability do they have when they haven't built a commercial airliner in over 30 years? Marketing a civil aircraft is very different than dealing with governments on military contracts. It's unlikely that there's anyone left at Lockheed Martin who was even involved in the L-1011 program, which was far from a commercial success and required Lockheed to be bailed out by the U.S. government, apart from bankrupting Rolls-Royce and requiring them to be taken over by the British government.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2278
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
What knowledge and ability do they have when they haven't built a commercial airliner in over 30 years? Marketing a civil aircraft is very different than dealing with governments on military contracts. It's unlikely that there's anyone left at Lockheed Martin who was even involved in the L-1011 program, which was far from a commercial success and required Lockheed to be bailed out by the U.S. government, apart from bankrupting Rolls-Royce and requiring them to be taken over by the British government.

Do you really believe that Lockheed Martin would not use Bombardier sales teams to try to sell this aircraft? By aquiring a majority stake in Bombardier, or buying the whole company they can choose to include the resources and the employees. I don't know what to make of your comment, because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter that the Tristar hasn't been manufactured in 30 years. The C Series probably has more in common with the F-35 than the L-1011 either way. There is no magic line between military and civilian aircraft. There are differences yes, but aviation is aviation. With LM financial backing it will be a lot easier to sell the C Series as well.

[Edited 2015-10-06 19:59:10]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 26):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
What knowledge and ability do they have when they haven't built a commercial airliner in over 30 years? Marketing a civil aircraft is very different than dealing with governments on military contracts. It's unlikely that there's anyone left at Lockheed Martin who was even involved in the L-1011 program, which was far from a commercial success and required Lockheed to be bailed out by the U.S. government, apart from bankrupting Rolls-Royce and requiring them to be taken over by the British government.

Do you really believe that Lockheed Martin would not use Bombardier sales teams to try to sell this aircraft? By aquiring a majority stake in Bombardier, or buying the whole company they can choose to include the resources and the employees. I don't know what to make of your comment, because it doesn't make sense.

The current Bombardier sales team hasn't been doing a very good job selling the aircraft. That was my point. How does simply changing the company's owner help if the same people are still going to be doing the sales job? A company with long experience in the commercial aviation industry would be much better.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4945
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting tomcat (Reply 7):
it the interest of Airbus of Boeing to see this program taken over by an American, Russian or Chinese competitor (or competitor to be)?
Quoting GE9X (Reply 22):
but any talks for a takeover of the program, or worst the company, would be under intense media, political, and public scrutiny.

Interesting points, actually.

One would indeed think the Chinese would jump at the opportunity to acquire western aeronautical tech. They'd be able to buy hundreds of them for their domestic airlines and use the technology for their own development programs.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9272
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 28):
One would indeed think the Chinese would jump at the opportunity to acquire western aeronautical tech. They'd be able to buy hundreds of them for their domestic airlines and use the technology for their own development programs.

Bombardier's technology is less valuable than it's installed based, sales channels, parts distribution network, and support services.

Technology is just one means of creating a competitive product. Lots of companies can develop technology. The bigger challenge is taking your technology product and operating a business around it. That is something that only Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, and Bombardier have figured out how to do in today's commercial jet market. And clearly, Bombardier isn't doing the hottest job of it either.

[Edited 2015-10-06 20:20:50]
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:32 am

I'm afraid Bombardier is going the same way Dornier went…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
I'm afraid Bombardier is going the same way Dornier went…

Dornier was a relatively small player, even long before it died. The two are not remotely comparable. Bombardier is a much larger operation that happens to also have a massive and currently profitable railway business. Yes, its aviation sector has a bleak outlook, which is why it was recently restructured : they want to make it easier to get rid of the CRJ and Q400 programs. The CRJ has no future and is on its way out sooner rather than later and, to a lesser extent, so is Downsview. The only aircraft Bombardier makes that have a future are the private jets and even that is on a short to medium term basis. They put all their eggs in the CSeries basket and they really need it to work out which is why they are desperate enough to offer majority stakes in the program to potential capital injectors. But Bombardier as a whole is not Dornier, they have a big and diversified industrial base. Of course it can't continue forever this way, and the railway side of things is not always going to be able to subisidize the aerospace side, so something's gotta give somewhere, sometime...
 
User avatar
SR380
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:01 am

What will happen to Swiss in case the all progam is canceled? It was suppose to enter service early next year and replace the Avro which are falling in pieces...

I guess they could find some second hand E190 quick enough...
 
chiad
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:16 am

The C series would certainly be a tiny addition to the NEO program.
A C series backlog of some 240 frames with no commonality sounds like unnecessary IMO.
But maybe the Bombardier plants could be converted to produce the NEO, or both program, to help Airbus reach 63 units a month?
Anyway ... they broke off the talks so why speculate?
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:26 am

On the first view the offer seems attractive.
But we rather should eveluate why Arbus didn't bite.

- So smething found after looking into the real status of the C-Series project?
- Disagreement on the financials: To expensive for Airbus et the end?

Something broke durng the Talks!

Probably Airbus wantet the whole thing: Includes Busiens Jets, and Bombardier didn't want?

So lets find out what broke the deal.

Flyglobal
 
Max Q
Posts: 7858
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:09 am

Sad if this program bites the dust, seems like a good aircraft.


But why would AB want it ? after all it has already served its function for them as a free test bed
for the P&W geared turbofan.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:03 am

Airbus rejected Bombardier's offer.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...up-statement-idUSL8N1264SS20151006

Quote:
European planemaker Airbus Group said on Tuesday it had halted talks with Bombardier after exploring opportunities with the Canadian manufacturer.

"Airbus Group SE confirms that it has been exploring business opportunities with Canada-based Bombardier Inc and that such discussions are no longer being pursued," Airbus Group said in a statement.

Case closed.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:05 am

This is a sign of total desperation - equivalent to selling BBD's soul and killing the whole purpose of the CSeries program, which was to set a foot in A&B's door.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 34):
But we rather should eveluate why Arbus didn't bite.

Because they have nothing to gain. Their options were:
a) follow their current strategy of strangling the CSeries by aggressive NEO pricing, and hope the CSeries will die by itself
b) buy the program and spend lots of money to shut it down
c) buy the program and spend lots of money to prop it up, at a doubtful ROI

Option a) is just so much easier...
 
voodoo
Posts: 1983
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
I'm afraid Bombardier is going the same way Dornier went…

Ironic news given BBD once did a due diligence purchase analysis of the Dornier 728/928/etc program and decided against it. http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/business/bo...se-of-german-jet-division-1.339435
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17865
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 34):
On the first view the offer seems attractive.

I'm struggling to see much attraction, frankly. BBD is obviously struggling with everything. The CSeries may be a fine product, but BBD is making a real hash of it. Not a single sale this year.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 34):
But we rather should eveluate why Arbus didn't bite.

Not really, there's clearly not enough upside for Airbus to take it on.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3673
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 16):
That excitement didn't last long.

Premature speculation.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:29 am

There are too many regional jets, hence many of the programmes struggling for sales. Airbus may have decided that there simply isn't a big enough market for the CSeries to make investing in it worthwhile
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
BHXLOVER
Posts: 212
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:20 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:32 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 41):

I think you are right. The market is going for larger not smaller. Hence the boom in sales for the A321 etc.

BBD is obviously hoping someone will come along and waste a whole lot of cash on this project. Unfortunately I cannot see it happening, so the CSeries looks doomed.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:47 am

The CSeries will likely not sell a single aircraft until EIS, because there is no need now for any airline to step up and hurry when you can obtain an a/c with short notice, so they might as well wait until it porves itself in service. So BBD is going to have a cash flow problem for a while unfortunately. To make things worse, cheap fuel means there is even less of a hurry to buy a fuel efficient a/c.

Quoting BHXLOVER (Reply 42):
The market is going for larger not smaller. Hence the boom in sales for the A321 etc.

The market is going for whatever's available, it's a duopoly. By NEOing, you shift the goal posts and increase the size around which a family is optimized. Thus for Airbus it is now the A321NEO, with the A319NEO being a "double shrink", and thus not selling.
 
Rbgso
Posts: 337
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:15 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 39):
Not a single sale this year.

I'm not surprised, and given how increasingly desperate BBD seems to be it's doubtful customers would be willing to place orders right now.

Would a Japanese company have any interest?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2500
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:06 pm

They'll get launch aid off the Canadian and UK govts.

Whats materially different between the CSeries and the A350?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21946
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 37):
This is a sign of total desperation - equivalent to selling BBD's soul and killing the whole purpose of the CSeries program, which was to set a foot in A&B's door.

That's what happens when you blow your budget and schedule building a product for an unproven market.

The only people that I can see wanting to purchase this project would be China, presuming they thought the technology was worth the price to import it. The a/c would have the same issues in the Chinese market: relatively high costs to move relatively fewer pax.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:36 pm

I always assumed the main moneymaker (C150) will be introduced with C110 serving as a Trojan horse. If BBD refuses to even enter the C150 into the marketplace, how can one feel sympathetic... they know the global sales prospects. Sell thousands of jets, a few dozen... your choice BBD. To engineer a superb 150 seater and then not build or offer it, hard to imagine.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
building a product for an unproven market.

This.

[Edited 2015-10-07 05:37:09]
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 40):

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 16):
That excitement didn't last long.

Premature speculation.

I used to suffer from that, but now I think of Amy Winehouse.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 44):

Quoting scbriml (Reply 39):
Not a single sale this year.

I'm not surprised, and given how increasingly desperate BBD seems to be it's doubtful customers would be willing to place orders right now.

Would a Japanese company have any interest?

The Japanese have their own MRJ, I doubt they'd want another programme, even if the CS is slightly larger.

The problem for the CS, is that all the while its future and Bombardier's future is in doubt, nobody will want to buy one for fear of being stuck with a lame duck plane. I'm sure there are sales out there which will happen once the programme is secure and has a LONG term future (with future developments, stretches etc)
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos