YXXMIKE
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 45):
They'll get launch aid off the Canadian and UK govts.

I would usually have agreed with you here but with an ongoing federal election in Canada I'm not as convinced. BBD has been helped before by the Canadian government so it wouldn't be anything new and in fairness to BBD they have been a lot more loyal to Canada then the auto industry and they got a fairly substantial bailout from the government during that crisis. I wonder if this time around they are going to have a harder time selling a bailout prospect or large government loan to secure the programme. I'm sure the UK government is closely watching this as well; the Northern Ireland economy isn't in particularly brilliant shape right now so job loses aren't going to do any political party any favours right now.

Unashamedly I'm a C-Series fanboy so I really do hope they can salvage this programme and build a stronger future. I'd really hate to see another almost successful Canadian aviation project get sent off shore or canceled completely (such as the Avro Arrow - yes a project from another era but a turning point in the Canadian aerospace industry none the less).
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 16):
Jurgen Klopp saga

.......sorry...... which airline does he work for ??
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 49):
The problem for the CS, is that all the while its future and Bombardier's future is in doubt, nobody will want to buy one for fear of being stuck with a lame duck plane. I'm sure there are sales out there which will happen once the programme is secure and has a LONG term future (with future developments, stretches etc)

Sounds very much like Fokker. They too had many airlines with serious interest for F70s and F100s that held back to see if Fokker would survive. Who knows, maybe Fokker would have survived if those orders had been placed.

Ooh well, if the CS program does get cancelled (I hope not) then at least in 10 years time we can look forward to endless Reidrabmob threads.  
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goosebayguy
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:49 pm

Not so long ago Bombardier were moving cash from as many divisions as possible in order to support the C series. Its Rail division has cutback heavily in order to save cash. Bombardier is in big trouble and may not survive to see the first delivery.

Perfect opportunity for BAE Systems to make a move and regain a footing in civil aircraft.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 53):
Perfect opportunity for BAE Systems to make a move and regain a footing in civil aircraft.

We talked earlier about what the possible motivation might be for Airbus to acquire a stake. And concluded that there isn't really any. What's the motivation for others to do that? Is the situation any better for other aviation manufacturers, or other investors?
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 24):
Lockheed Martin seems like a possible candidate. They've stated that they're exploring more civilian business opportunities since military spending has decreased. And needless to say, Lockheed Martin has the resources, the knowledge and the ability to swallow up Bombardier and make sure the C Series programme succeeds.

They would be purchasing a programme that is 99.9% complete, with 250 or so orders in the book. LM doesn't have any civilian aircraft on the market today except the LM-100J which is a niche aircraft. There probably are a lot of airlines out there, sitting on the fence about the C Series because of Bombardier financial troubles. If they learned LM took over, I'm sure we would see a lot more airlines sign the orderbook.

Lockheed Martin has no relationships with airlines. Lockheed has no customer support engineering left. In general other than money and potentially more credible management and a patient board of directors, Lockheed doesn't really bring much to to Bombardier.

I don't know how they would salvage the program. The hardest part of creating a new airplane is certification. Lockheed doesn't have much experience working with the aircraft certification office at the FAA or EASA since they aren't building much that is certified for civilian operation. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they have that expertise.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
I'm afraid Bombardier is going the same way Dornier went…

I am thinking that there is a chance Bombardier is going the same way as Fokker and Dornier. Without big money behind them, this is going to make airlines less inclined to purchase the C Series. Airlines usually are not the ones who decide the success or failure of an airplane. It is the leasing companies and finance companies who decide. The leasing companies are only interested in high volume planes. If an airline wants a C Series, the leasing and financing companies will steer them away because they risk getting stuck with an airplane after 5 years with no used market demand. The 757-300, 717, 737-600, A318, A345, A346, 748 all fall into the category where leasing companies and financing companies charge higher rates due to the used market for these planes being potentially weak. The 737-900ER took a while to get some serious orders because leasing companies were worried that it would not be popular like the 737-900. It wasn't until some big name airlines like Continental committed to it in big numbers before the financing rates became competitive. Boeing and Airbus both offer financing for airplanes that the leasing companies don't really want. The problem with the CS100 and CS300 is that Bombardier don't have the money or leasing divisions strong enough to finance them.
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:45 pm

How badly do customers of Airbus and Boeing need a viable regional jet? And is Bombardier vital for providing them?
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 24):

Lockheed Martin seems like a possible candidate.
Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 53):
Perfect opportunity for BAE Systems to make a move and regain a footing in civil aircraft.

Uhh..why? Both are making tons of money without being in the civil aviation market. Why change that now; what do Lockheed Martin or BAE get from it versus focusing in on their core strengths? Lockheed has pulled out of the civil aviation market before, and BAE has pulled out of Airbus, why would that inspire confidence in airlines that the C series wouldn't be pulled if not performing to financial expectations?

BBD needs someone who brings money and established experience in the civil aviation market for the C series to reach its full potential.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 9):
That said I also think the only partners that really make sense for Bombardier are Airbus or Boeing, as the above is only true for those two. Embraer is otherwise Bombardier's main competitor

However the market is moving to larger aircraft and Embraer's updated E-190/195 E2 is in the 100-130 seat range. The CS300 would give Embraer access to the 130-160 seat market without any development costs. They could drop the CS100 to eliminate the competition for the E2.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:28 pm

If i was Bombardier, i would have started and tried to get the CS300 off the ground first. It has more orders / options.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 57):
Uhh..why? Both are making tons of money without being in the civil aviation market.

Perhaps because, with US military spending on freeze for the coming years, the military aerospace market has reached its top, and no further growth is expected for the foreseeable future. This may be the time to expand their portfolio outside military. Cash-wise it would not pose any problem for neither.
Not claiming it will happen, just pointing out that their massive military successes of the past form no guarantee for continued success going forward.
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 55):
The problem with the CS100 and CS300 is that Bombardier don't have the money or leasing divisions strong enough to finance them.

Yes, but do not forget EDC (Export Development Canada) will backup any necessary funding required by BBD to sell Airplanes.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 49):
The Japanese have their own MRJ, I doubt they'd want another programme,

Actually, the CSeries would be a perfect complement to the MRJ, from a product family point of view.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
That's what happens when you blow your budget and schedule building a product for an unproven market.

Not so much IMO. Blowing budget & schedule is the norm nowadays, nothing to be surprised about. The problem was pursuing too many development programs (Global 7/8000, Learjet 85, CSeries) in parallel, while the existing product lines (CRJ, Q) were are dying away, so that no cash flows in. Airbus developed the A350 and poured tons of money to fix the A400M while in parallel the A320 & A330 were selling in record numbers - cash was always flowing in. Same for the Boeing 787 troubles - 777 and 737 kept selling like hotcakes, cash was flowing in. BBD did not have that during CSeries/G7/8000/L85 development, and that's the problem they're in now.

As for the unproven market, the lack of sales is not necessarily an indication of unproven market; the sales are decided by other factors, a few of which have been pointed out:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 52):
Sounds very much like Fokker. They too had many airlines with serious interest for F70s and F100s that held back to see if Fokker would survive.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 55):
The problem with the CS100 and CS300 is that Bombardier don't have the money or leasing divisions strong enough to finance them.
Quoting r2rho (Reply 43):
there is no need now for any airline to step up and hurry when you can obtain an a/c with short notice, so they might as well wait until it porves itself in service
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:53 pm

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...oncerns-grow-talks-airbus-collapse

This is not good news - it puts BBD in a very weak position - their best hope is now LM or Northrup, someone who wants to step in immediately and save the orders before they melt away.

The are basically dead in the water in terms of new orders unless they get a major capital infusion (Think $5B).

They really could pull the plug on it if they don't get an infusion.

If they do pull the plug I could see them shutting the whole Commercial Side, and then maybe selling the Business Jet Side and get out of Aircraft altogether - it could be a good fit with Cessna (Textron) as it would then give them a full range of aircraft. Kill Learjet and keep the Challenger/Global Programs but move them to Wichita.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 62):
Not so much IMO. Blowing budget & schedule is the norm nowadays, nothing to be surprised about. The problem was pursuing too many development programs (Global 7/8000, Learjet 85, CSeries) in parallel, while the existing product lines (CRJ, Q) were are dying away, so that no cash flows in. Airbus developed the A350 and poured tons of money to fix the A400M while in parallel the A320 & A330 were selling in record numbers - cash was always flowing in. Same for the Boeing 787 troubles - 777 and 737 kept selling like hotcakes, cash was flowing in. BBD did not have that during CSeries/G7/8000/L85 development, and that's the problem they're in now.

As for the unproven market, the lack of sales is not necessarily an indication of unproven market; the sales are decided by other factors, a few of which have been pointed out:

Yep. Early 2000s BBD sat on their hands and watched the regionals load up on CR2s. When that started tapering, they decided to stretch it again and again. See how well the CRJ1000 has sold....

Same with the Dash. The classics stopped selling so they canned them and went all Q400. It sold alright at first, but it's going the same way as the CRJ's.

BBD should have updated the classic Dash rather than stopping production in 2006(?)

They also should have stopped stretching the CRJ after the 700/900. The 1000 must have cost them a fortune, it seemed like it was in development forever.

Meanwhile, they've sold off the rest of the DHC portfolio, so no income there anymore. CRJ's are winding up in the desert at a crazy rate, so they must face declining revenue from that program. And the Q400, well, after the SAS saga, it's never really recovered, except for domestically, with PD, WS Encore and QK ordering them since 2005.

Rather than upgrading the aircraft, BBD has merely offered an 86 seat config, and a combi config. Maybe good for 5 or 10 orders each. Wise use of resources? Doubtful.

I'd lovelovelove to see the Cseries be successful; I'm firmly of the opinion of the more aircraft types around the better. However, if we don't start to see some orders appear after they're in revenue service for a bit, I'm going to be pretty pessimistic.

Remember, this is, realistically, Bombardier's first ever airliner. Everything else they've inherited and stretched. (Canadair, DHC, Shorts,Lear) They've never started with a blank piece of paper and a goal.
Same goes for their rail division...Lohner-Rotax, Adtranz, Pullman, Budd etc. (I'm not super up to date on their rail division, but they only got into the business through acquisitions)




The other issue I see with Bombardier is the Beaudoin/Bombardier family. Their CEO stepped down in February..where'd he end up? Executive Chairman of the Board. Replacing his father. At least the new CEO isn't blood related. Though it must be difficult to report to the guy who used to have your job and really didn't seem to know how to do it.

Regardless, the Quebec government will undoubtedly throw some cash their way. They'd never let Bombardier fail. Too much pride in the company. Now might be a great time to load up on some shares...
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 55):
Lockheed Martin has no relationships with airlines. Lockheed has no customer support engineering left. In general other than money and potentially more credible management and a patient board of directors, Lockheed doesn't really bring much to to Bombardier.

Maybe not, but Bombardier would bring a lot to Lockheed Martin. And as several others have suggested, one of the reasons Bombardier aren't selling any C Series currently may be because customers know about their financial troubles. Lockheed Martin would be the security they need to go forward. Bombardier has everything LM doesn't have, and vice versa.

Quoting Polot (Reply 57):
Uhh..why? Both are making tons of money without being in the civil aviation market. Why change that now; what do Lockheed Martin or BAE get from it versus focusing in on their core strengths? Lockheed has pulled out of the civil aviation market before, and BAE has pulled out of Airbus, why would that inspire confidence in airlines that the C series wouldn't be pulled if not performing to financial expectations?

Lockheed Martin has stated in the past that they're looking to invest into the civilian market, now that military spending has been cut back. They're looking for new possibilities. And when LM says that, I actually believe them. This is also the reason they decided to make the LM-100J out of the C-130J. The same could be applied to BAE, but I don't know that company as well as LM.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 60):
Perhaps because, with US military spending on freeze for the coming years, the military aerospace market has reached its top, and no further growth is expected for the foreseeable future. This may be the time to expand their portfolio outside military. Cash-wise it would not pose any problem for neither.
Not claiming it will happen, just pointing out that their massive military successes of the past form no guarantee for continued success going forward.

Exactly.

Cessna/Textron is making GA aircraft, helicpoters and a military jet trainer.
Embraer is making civilian airliners and military jet transports.
Boeing is making civilian airliners and military tankers and fighter jets.
Airbus is making civilian airliners and military transports and helicopters.
Sukhoi is making civilian airliners and military fighter jets.
Mitsubishi is making civilian airliners and military fighter jets.
Lockheed Martin is making military transports, military fighter jets, and just about everything that can go *boom*.

We know that LM is seeking to invest into the civilian market to diversify because of military cutbacks. Why on earth would Lockheed Martin - the pinnacle of advanced aviation technology, and with their financial security - not be able to build and finish developing the C Series, a programme that is 99.9% complete, WITH the expertise and employees of Bombardier on board?

I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just surprised people actually think LM couldn't do it. To me it looks like a very big opportunity for Lockheed Martin.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:37 pm

Richard Aboulafia stated in Forbes that he sees the CSeries being cancelled.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richarda...us-this-does-not-look-good-at-all/

tortugamon
 
morrisond
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:33 pm

I would say the odds of cancellation are now over 50% within the next 90 days to stop the bleeding.

I would'nt rule Northrop out of this either. They may 'Need' to get into Commercial Aerospace if they are the losers in the LRS-B competition which sounds like the winner may now be announced within the next few weeks.

LM doesn't need to get into Commercial if they lose LRS-B but it would be a good direction to move in as there will probably be no new Military Airframe programs for a good 10 plus years(F22 replacement).
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:40 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 66):
Richard Aboulafia stated in Forbes that he sees the CSeries being cancelled.

Always the straight talker... (though not always right).

Lets hope he is wrong now, for the sake of diversity in the market place.
 
aryonoco
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:20 am

I really, really, really wanted the C-Series to succeed.

Such a great aircraft. So sad about the state of affairs.

Looks like at this point BBD needs an angel investor. Hope they find it before it's too late.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 69):
I really, really, really wanted the C-Series to succeed.

Such a great aircraft. So sad about the state of affairs.

Looks like at this point BBD needs an angel investor. Hope they find it before it's too late.

Here, here.
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bluesky73
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:29 am

If only a.net members could form a company to buy out BBD 

Rename from CS100 and CS300 to A.N100 and A.N300.

So back to reality, this will be such a shame to see what looks a beautiful looking plane to be unsuccessful and not join the fleets of the world. I prey they can find a backer very soon.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting morrisond (Reply 67):

I would say the odds of cancellation are now over 50% within the next 90 days to stop the bleeding.

I hope not..they're so close to being done flight testing. If only they could sell the bloody thing. Or any of their products for that matter. I'm counting 27 q400s ordered this year, and a backlog of 51 frames. CRJ's look to be about a 76 frame backlog. Cseries has 243 "firm" orders.(Even though many of them seem to be more LOI's than firm orders, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt) So give or take, 370 frame backlog.

When we routinely see Boeing/Airbus/Embraer announce 100+ frame orders, and then realize that Bombardier as an entire commercial airline manufacturer has two programs with less than 100 orders, and a new "gamechanging" aircraft with a bunch of up in the air orders (Republic 40 frames, Odyssey with 10 frames) you wonder how they even OK'd the Cseries development. I know we were, and still are cheering for it to succeed, but in reality, Bombardier should have taken the 2005-2015 timeframe to replace the CRJ's with a nextgen aircraft, and to update or replace the Dash 8s, 100 through 400.

They could have had two fairly successful programs, and instead, are staring down the barrel of three programs that not many people see turning around unfortunately.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:05 pm

Dream scenario:

Boeing buys it and funds to get current C100/300 certified and in service, then redevelops it (new systems maybe cockpit etc) and relaunches it (under Boeing nomenclature a la Md-95 to 717) as smaller companion aircraft to future MOM/NMA/whatever with same type certificate (same as 737?)
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:16 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 67):
I would say the odds of cancellation are now over 50% within the next 90 days to stop the bleeding.

That would equate to shutting down BBD commercial aircraft, because the CSeries is their last and only hope. For the sake of innovation, competition, and the future of the global aeronautics sector, I sincerely hope it doesn't happen.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:40 pm

Seems crazy to make public talks with other airplane manufacturers soon after getting a revamped sales team. Seriously how many airlines are going to buy from a manufacturer which is virtually stating publicly that there is a serious possibility that they might not be around long. Talk about throwing a company under the bus. Couldn't this have all waited until January? So sad that they couldn't either a) understand the market prior to spending a fortune on the program, and b) understand the amount of money that the program would go through so they could be sure they had the financing it before they went down this path.

What other large manufacturer or tech firm is headquartered in Canada? Sad.
 
morrisond
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 74):
That would equate to shutting down BBD commercial aircraft, because the CSeries is their last and only hope. For the sake of innovation, competition, and the future of the global aeronautics sector, I sincerely hope it doesn't happen.

I hope it doesn't happen either. But I've seen what happens all too often when companies get in this financial position.

IMO - Bombardier's best option at this point given that we are less than two weeks away from a Federal election in Cananda is to announce that unless they get a Bailout from the Canadian Government right away they will shut down Commercial Aerospace.....

All the parties would jump over themselves to pledge support to keep a lot of jobs in Quebec where they all want/need seats.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 75):
Seems crazy to make public talks with other airplane manufacturers soon after getting a revamped sales team. Seriously how many airlines are going to buy from a manufacturer which is virtually stating publicly that there is a serious possibility that they might not be around long.

The way I read the scenario, they didn't make the talks public. It seems like they were leaked. From what I recall of the original article in this thread, before it got revised/updated (and which it seems few actually read/understood before commenting that a tie-up was rumored to happen, rather than one-way talks taking place), is that nobody was specifically quoted and cited by name, but rather "sources familiar with the situation who are anonymous because they are not authorized to speak about it." Meaning, somebody yapped when they shouldn't have, and because the story got legs, Airbus had to respond by basically saying "no way, no how."

We'll probably never know how serious the talks were. If there was any chance that this deal could have been reached, the media leak almost certainly killed it by forcing Airbus to respond. If BBD had been able to keep a lid on things, there's an outside possibility that they could have reached a deal with someone, by negotiating a deal with a bit more time (keeping their desperation quiet so they could still make things look good on the public side). Now, who knows what might have happened?
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 73):
Dream scenario:

Can't see that happening. Boeing has more than enough on its plate just now without adding tons of work and billions of additional expenditure.   
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bluesky73
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 73):

Dream scenario:

Boeing buys it and funds to get current C100/300 certified and in service, then redevelops it (new systems maybe cockpit etc) and relaunches it (under Boeing nomenclature a la Md-95 to 717) as smaller companion aircraft to future MOM/NMA/whatever with same type certificate (same as 737?)

A good dream scenario Polot, maybe the Boeing 818-1 and 818-3. If they could get an engine that can handle short cycles then offer to HA, maybe being Hawaii then the B808-1 etc, plus Chinese like number 8 
 
diverted
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 75):
What other large manufacturer or tech firm is headquartered in Canada? Sad.

Blackberry, but speculation is they'll stop making phones next year...

Quoting morrisond (Reply 76):
IMO - Bombardier's best option at this point given that we are less than two weeks away from a Federal election in Cananda is to announce that unless they get a Bailout from the Canadian Government right away they will shut down Commercial Aerospace.....

All the parties would jump over themselves to pledge support to keep a lot of jobs in Quebec where they all want/need seats.

Please no. Let them shut down Commercial Aerospace if they can't make it work. Sell it off whole or in pieces I don't care.

Why should federal dollars go to bail them out? Because jobs? If they can't run it as a profitable enterprise it's not up to our tax dollars to keep them on life support. What's next, Blackberry wants a bailout? Then xyz company? Where's it end. We claim to believe in capitalism, but that's clearly not the case. They shouldn't have bailed out GM and Chrysler in 09, but that's another topic. Besides, Quebec's economy minister already said they'd bail them out. Leave the feds out of it.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 80):
Please no. Let them shut down Commercial Aerospace if they can't make it work. Sell it off whole or in pieces I don't care.

Why should federal dollars go to bail them out? Because jobs? If they can't run it as a profitable enterprise it's not up to our tax dollars to keep them on life support. What's next, Blackberry wants a bailout? Then xyz company? Where's it end. We claim to believe in capitalism, but that's clearly not the case. They shouldn't have bailed out GM and Chrysler in 09, but that's another topic. Besides, Quebec's economy minister already said they'd bail them out. Leave the feds out of it.

As a taxpaying Canadian I totally agree with you! I was just pointing out how they might be able to get additional funds.

Even with a bailout I think the writing is on the wall unless they get a significant US or Chinese partner to give them mass.
 
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Polot
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 78):
Can't see that happening. Boeing has more than enough on its plate just now without adding tons of work and billions of additional expenditure.

Well I did label it a dream scenario. I know the chances of that happening lie just above Boeing resurrecting the Fairchild Dornier 528/728/928 program (...to act as an even smaller companion to the C series/NMA  Wow! That's gold, Jerry! Gold!)

[Edited 2015-10-09 07:46:26]
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 73):
Boeing buys it and funds to get current C100/300 certified and in service, then redevelops it (new systems maybe cockpit etc) and relaunches it (under Boeing nomenclature a la Md-95 to 717) as smaller companion aircraft to future MOM/NMA/whatever with same type certificate (same as 737?)

I don't think that will happen. While Boeing has the resources, the knowledge and everything needed.. they don't need Bombardier. We all know what happened to the 717. It was the oddball in the programme. Bombardier doesn't bring anything to the table that Boeing doesn't already have. The situation is different with Lockheed Martin, Northrop and BAE. Bombardier would have something of value to them.

I think what will happen is this; Canadian authorities and investment groups will issue emergency funding or buy a stake in Bombardier to make sure the programme is completed and initial production is started. If no more orders happen within the next year or so after that, I think the C Series is dead unfortunately.
 
aryonoco
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting HOMSAR (Reply 77):
The way I read the scenario, they didn't make the talks public. It seems like they were leaked.

Yes, Reuters got an exclusive on it. Someone leaked the talks to them as they were happening. Airbus walked away in a matter of hours after the leak.

I don't want to point fingers, but obviously Airbus had nothing to gain by keeping the talks secret. In fact Airbus, Boeing and Embraer all hugely benefit if the market as a whole believes that BBD is about to die.

From a purely technical point of view, it made sense for me for Airbus to buy the C-Series. Airbus has nothing that competes with the CS-100, and the CS-300 is an infinitely better plane than the A319. If Airbus had bought it, they could have just killed the A319NEO and have the CS-100, CS-300, A320NEO and A321NEO all on offer perfectly complimenting each other.

But that is from a purely technical point of view. In reality, they probably determined that it's cheaper to just kill BBD the way they have been doing up until now.

As for the future, I think the idea of Lockheed Martin, BAE or Boeing buying the program is more of a pipe dream, but as far as dreams go, I do very much hope Lockheed Martin ends up buying it and coming back to the civilian aircraft market. They are one of the few companies who are used to competing with Boeing.
 
diverted
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 81):
Even with a bailout I think the writing is on the wall unless they get a significant US or Chinese partner to give them mass.

Exactly. A bailout may buy them some time to string together new cseries orders, but for all intents and purposes the Q400 and CRJ are dead. CR7s/9s may see a few top up orders for the regionals in the US, and the Q400 will probably get some more WS orders and probably some more for QK as well as they wind down the -100 flying. But without some major investments, they're both lame duck programs. The only future I see for BBD commercial aviation is if the Cseries is able to nab a bunch of orders in a short timeframe. IE UA ordering 50 or 75. However, until someone places a big order like that, everything is up in the air. The bizjets will keep some income flowing for a bit, but I think those benefit from the economies of scale that the commercial side brings to the table. Without that, I can't see the bizjets making it a whole lot longer either.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 71):
If only a.net members could form a company to buy out BBD

Rename from CS100 and CS300 to A.N100 and A.N300.

I would then lease two of each model, then buy the ZestAir brand that AirAsia dropped, to start a domestic/regional LCC based at CRK. You could throw in a couple of Q300NG for good measure...    .

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 71):
So back to reality,

Like I pointed out in # 23, the Family, unfortunately, wants to eat their cake and have it too...as indicated in this report from the other thread.....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ge-on-dual-shares/article26730552/


Which leads us to this opinion piece.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...iers-woes-getting-cserious-417569/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:13 pm

I can't see the CS being of interest to the large defence orientated groups (LM, Northrop/BAE) as it's in a cutthroat part of the market, with a small chance of making a profit on the investment, and none of the 3 have existing any existing products with synergy, or much recent relevant experience.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...isis-must-be-tackled-31592122.html

An awful lot of jobs in Belfast depend on the CS. One thing that I hadn't considered is that this is a devolved matter for the N Ireland administration, which is currently in a state of complete crisis...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
jalarner
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:07 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:02 pm

I know it's not technically the correct thread for this, but here is some interesting news...or at least news to come.

http://www.rebelmouse.com/sylvainfau...-top-north-america-1396695409.html
Support air cadets!
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 87):
One thing that I hadn't considered is that this is a devolved matter for the N Ireland administration, which is currently in a state of complete crisis...

Meh. When aren't our bunch of elected clowns in a state of complete crisis?
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 87):
I can't see the CS being of interest to the large defence orientated groups (LM, Northrop/BAE) as it's in a cutthroat part of the market, with a small chance of making a profit on the investment, and none of the 3 have existing any existing products with synergy, or much recent relevant experience.

Any such purchase or investment would not be for the C Series alone, it would be for the technology, the experience, the knowledge and everything else Bombardier would bring with them. And then to build on that, to develop further models. It's a relatively cheap ticket to get a foothold in the civil aviation market.. again.
 
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hOMSaR
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 71):

If only a.net members could form a company to buy out BBD

Rename from CS100 and CS300 to A.N100 and A.N300.

Nah, they'd buy the rights to the 757 from Boeing and restart production, with about the same sales success as the CSeries has had over the past year.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
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Polot
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 90):
Any such purchase or investment would not be for the C Series alone, it would be for the technology, the experience, the knowledge and everything else Bombardier would bring with them. And then to build on that, to develop further models. It's a relatively cheap ticket to get a foothold in the civil aviation market.. again.

Most of the companies mentioned likely don't need the technology/experience/knowledge that BBD brings, in fact many of them (especially LM) likely have more knowledge and experience with the technology than BBD does...

BBD needs a John Leahy (because BBD's current commercial sale's team is not cutting it for any of their jets) and an extensive support network for airlines to compete with Boeing and Airbus. I don't think LM, Northrop, and BAE bring that to the table.

An airline is not going to say that since Lockheed made a commercial jet 30 years ago everything is going to be fine.
 
panais
Posts: 228
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RE: Bombardier Offers Majority Stake To Airbus For C-Series

Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:56 am

How much money is Bombardier asking for the C Series?

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