PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:02 pm

I think IllinoisMan thinks F9 should pay becauser it's F9. Nevermind that WN wants more of C - make F9 pay. lol

At least he's consistent.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:10 pm

No shock there. Many of us have been saying this for along time. Frontiers has WAY too many gates in Denver and will need even less in the future. I think returning 6 is a no brainer for them, they are not gonna want them back. The future is point to point routes not connections its an ULCC in a few years i bet they stop connections or taking those passengers.
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 49):
Then again, DL is growing at DEN so I'm not sure they would want to move from C.

How many planes does DL RON in DEN? One gate would make a difference for their daily operations as well as charters. This would be a big help for the new 20 minute bag to claim times. Is there space for a sky club? I know BA and AA share a club on the A concourse
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1354
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:42 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 22):
Will F9 ever be strong in one area again? From 24 gates now down to 8!

Being strong in one area is what has made them weak for so many years. DEN is a very competitive market, and it's no longer a 2 hub airport. F9 has been hostage to every struggle in DEN, because for most of its existence, that has been it's only major market. UA hasn't always done well in DEN, but could fall back on other hubs to get through the rocky periods. F9 doesn't want 24 gates in any city, they want a diversified route map.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23730
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:04 am

Keep in mind, F9 is not that DEN hub-spoke connection carrier of the past, but evolving ever more into a p2p O&D player as it transitions its network as a ULCC.

The ability to connect and flow passengers over DEN is no longer part of the core fundamental scheduling goal, so the carrier does not need as many planes to meet at DEN at the same time.
Today if connections work its more due happenstance than design.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:00 am

Anyone wanna see AS grow in DEN?
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:08 am

On the DL gate situation, before the DL/NW merger it was:
C-34/36/38 were NW and C-40/42/44/46 were DL

At some point along the way C-46 was given up as were C-34 and C-36 so that DL now has 4 gates at DEN, C-38/40/42/44

IMO moving DL to A and letting WN have all of C would make perfect sense.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
n7371f
Posts: 1559
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:06 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 56):

On the DL gate situation, before the DL/NW merger it was:
C-34/36/38 were NW and C-40/42/44/46 were DL

At some point along the way C-46 was given up as were C-34 and C-36 so that DL now has 4 gates at DEN, C-38/40/42/44

IMO moving DL to A and letting WN have all of C would make perfect sense.

Delta has 5. I was just there last week. 2 of the former NW gates - and then 3 on the other side.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3887
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 17):
Thus, I wonder if UA would consider opening DEN-OAK even though it has a hub at SFO. There might be some business it can attain from OAK side with some nominal DEN frequencies. WN has that market all to itself. UA would rather OAK not exist, but it does exist and competes with SFO. Other carriers exist at competing airports to it's hubs when necessary: DL in HPN, AA in FLL, or B6 in PVD. OAK might have a different submarket to SFO, like those examples, than HOU to IAH or MDW or ORD, where UA doesn't need to be in the same city alternate airport.

I Can't say Never But I can say I'd HIGHLY doubt it.. OAK - IAH, OAK - ORD, OAK -IAD, would seem to be good Idea routes if we did but with Bart (Bay Area Rapid Transit) trains right out of the airport? it seems redundant Especially to even park at SFO when OAK might be easier and cheaper for East Bay residents. My son lives in Oakland and I too will retire in the East Bay region but I just don't see it coming unless Oakland opened a brand new terminal section which I do NOT see happening.
 
rj777
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:44 am

I hope we aren't looking at something as drastic as what F9 did at MKE.
 
bjorn14
Topic Author
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:20 am

DIA will most likely let F9 out of the gates because the airport can proceed more quickly on some construction plans they have.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:25 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
Quoting enilria (Reply 41):
We'll see. I don't think they even know the plan more than a few months in advance.

I think they're a bit smarter than that. LOL.

mariner

I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm saying that opportunities are more tactical than strategic in their current thinking.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6617
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 27):
UA does compete with WN on DEN-BWI directly, even though WN dominates the BWI side with a massive hub. What would be the difference in this case other than UA wanting to steer pax use SFO?

It's interesting that SFO and OAK are farther apart than FLL and MIA, and AA figured it must keep some presence in FLL, but UA figured (in the case of SFO and OAK) that it could just avoid OAK. While OAK might have been perceived as a low yield leisure airport, there seems to be service from DL, AS and other carriers (besides WN) that are likely not just picking up leisure traffic heading to Mexico and Vegas.

Not to get too OAK focused, but it is major missing route for frequent fliers of UA out of DEN, as DEN is a hub in the western US.

Part of it is the fact that Baltimore is quite a bit further from IAD (around 60 miles) than Oakland is from SFO (a bit over 20 miles). Sure, the traffic in the Bay Area is awful but then so is the Beltway. DCA is a bit closer but then UA's non-stop service from DEN to DCA is very limited. People from Oakland will drive to SFO; very few from Baltimore will drive to IAD unless the fares are a lot, lot lower.

And UA mostly has only a limited presence in alternative airports to their hubs -- unless that alternative tends to be strongly preferred and people are willing to pay more for that privilege. I'm speaking of airports like LGA, DCA, SNA, and SJC. I don't think BWI & IAD are alternates for anyone who isn't highly fare-sensitive.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 40):
If F9 plans to grow at DIA in the future then why not keep the gates and sub lease them yourself.

Paying for gates you don't need is very expensive and there's no guarantee you'll be able to sublease them. By all accounts, DL is happy with their setup on C which is vastly superior to being stuck in the gates on the west end of A. And why would they move if they could be kicked out by F9 on short notice?
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 61):
I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm saying that opportunities are more tactical than strategic in their current thinking.

I think the track of going with the A321 with high density seating was strategic. As a result, preference also steers to airports like PHL. The current schedule of heavy MCO/Florida during the Winter is consistent with the last couple of years, except that F9 is now relying on major markets over medium size markets (e.g. MDT).

One apparent change to me (within the last 6-8 months) is the shifting away from focus cities. Instead F9 just wants to be a low cost option for a lot of markets on a few selected routes, primarily MCO.

As of last year, F9 would market the number of nonstop destinations as selling point.

As number of destinations become slim in the old focus cities, I wonder the importance of F9 to be involved in credit card program and frequent flier program as attractiveness dwindles. It might be simpler for them to follow Allegiant's model in that regards. They aren't really going for repeat customers, but just trying to attract customers seeking the lowest fare at the given time likely through the help of third party sites.

The deletion of some routes might be because of heavy competition and limited fleet. But as a result, it conceded routes to Spirit in CLE and PHL. Spirit seemed to coordinate PHL-ATL and PHL-ORD to connect to places in the western part of the country, and can rely on some connections when the fare matching is strong. I don't think F9 coordinated as much on those type of routes (except with a few DEN 1-stop/connections).
 
SWADawg
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:05 pm

The City of Denver has total discretion on where they assign Airlines gates throughout the Airport. It's the reason that AA, US, and FL were all moved out of C Concourse. The only reason that the City had not as of yet forced DL out is because DL pulled out a provision in their lease agreement that stated that the could only be forced to move if the Gates they were being moved to were all together in the same Convourse. Since the City of Denver was unable to find 5 gates all together on A Concourse to accommodate DL, they were able to stay on C Concourse. It appears that with F9 giving back 6 gates most likely together on A Concourse, the City of Denver will now have authority to force DL to move per the City's lease agreement with DL.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 61):
I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm saying that opportunities are more tactical than strategic in their current thinking.

Once again, we differ.

Much of what they are doing was laid down, conceptually, almost as soon as Indigo took control, and some even before. Franke hinted at the A321's in some of his earliest interviews, as well as the right sizing of DEN.

Growth at other stations has been obvious from the git-go, and they've been refining the Apple Vacations contract since the early days - I made a post about it here well over a year ago.

Certainly, they are opportunistic - CLE - and certainly a few things may not have worked - IAD has proven to be more problematic than they might have hoped.

But the essential strategy - north/south in winter and east/west in summer - was established by Siegel pre-Indigo, as well as the guiding mantra - fly where people want to go, when they want to go there.

I find it frustrating that they're making the jump to profitability look almost easy and part of me wonders why something of that strategy wasn't pursued by previous CEO's back in the bad ol' financial days of Frontier. One thing has been essential to that - divorcing itself from the almost total reliance on DEN.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting planesNTrains (Reply 50):
I think IllinoisMan thinks F9 should pay becauser it's F9. Nevermind that WN wants more of C - make F9 pay. lol

At least he's consistent.

I agree totally.
        

Frontier 14
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 63):

Quoting enilria (Reply 61):
I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm saying that opportunities are more tactical than strategic in their current thinking.

I think the track of going with the A321 with high density seating was strategic.

I'm talking about routes, not fleet...although I do think that the move to A321s forces them out of smaller markets and I would assume that was an intentional move.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 63):
As a result, preference also steers to airports like PHL.
Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 63):
except that F9 is now relying on major markets over medium size markets (e.g. MDT).

Yes, the A321 forced them to places like PHL, but they got the A321 not because they wanted to go to places like PHL, but because fuel prices were high and in order to be a ULCC with high fuel they needed A321 economics. That's why I saw this all fairly tactical because the game board has changed a lot lately with oil dropping and much greater attention on pricing from the legacies (see below).

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 63):
Instead F9 just wants to be a low cost option for a lot of markets on a few selected routes, primarily MCO.

At least in the Winter, but Florida in Winter is a tried and true strategy for LCCs back before we were all born.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
Much of what they are doing was laid down, conceptually, almost as soon as Indigo took control, and some even before.

But that wasn't that long ago. They really have morphed from copycatting G4 to copycatting NK now that Biffle is at the helm. I don't think they ever had enough of the vacation packaging element to do the G4 strategy well enough.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
IAD has proven to be more problematic than they might have hoped.

It would appear ATL hasn't either if they are unable to fly ATL-MCO/MSY in Winter. Those are really disheartening moves for their ATL future given the timing. The rest can be explained away by seasonality, but combined it probably means ATL turned out fairly poorly.

ATL-CVG ends this month
ATL-IND ends this month
ATL-LAX ends in January
ATL-MSP ends this month
ATL-MCO ends in January
ATL-MSY ends in January
ATL-ORD ends in January
ATL-PHL ends in January
ATL-TTN ends in January

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
But the essential strategy - north/south in winter and east/west in summer - was established by Siegel

Or by Eastern in 1978...

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I find it frustrating that they're making the jump to profitability look almost easy and part of me wonders why something of that strategy wasn't pursued by previous CEO's back in the bad ol' financial days of Frontier. One thing has been essential to that - divorcing itself from the almost total reliance on DEN.

I don't think they are making it look that easy. From a route network perspective they are making it look really hard. My data shows ORD, some of DEN, and what remains in TTN have been doing well. The rest is not that great.

Again, the reason why F9 and NK can now make money and basically neither previously could, simply comes down to not being price matched. That *has* been happening because once both instituted the carry on bag fees, the legacies stopped paying attention to them and that situation is a gold mine. NOW, we are seeing an evolution of this with different legacies selectively matching them in order to drive them out. That is what has happened in ATL and IAH. AA has been less aggressive with that strategy and they are easier pickings. It's probably a good time to short SAVE because if the legacies continue with this and it is coupled with NK's fantastic growth rate it could be ugly moving forward. F9 is growing more slowly so they are less at risk.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
But that wasn't that long ago.

Now I'm really confused - of course it wasn't long ago. Indigo didn't take over "long ago".   

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
It would appear ATL hasn't either if they are unable to fly ATL-MCO/MSY in Winter

Okay. See below.

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Or by Eastern in 1978...

I meant at Frontier - but you knew that.

Since MCO and LAS were obvious to Blind Freddie, I wonder why "old" Frontier didn't make more of 'em.

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
I don't think they are making it look that easy. From a route network perspective they are making it look really hard. My data shows ORD, some of DEN, and what remains in TTN have been doing well. The rest is not that great.

Your data and the profit numbers seem to be in some conflict.

If only ORD, DEN and TTN made money and the others all lost, ORD, DEN and TTN must be freakin' gangbusters financially.

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Again, the reason why F9 and NK can now make money and basically neither previously could, simply comes down to not being price matched.

People have been saying that about Ryanair, too, for a couple of decades or more.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, other than that the glass is for you, as so often, half-empty. It's why the debates between us, you and I, are so unproductive.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
illinoisman
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:07 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting planesNTrains (Reply 50):
I think IllinoisMan thinks F9 should pay becauser it's F9.

Well then I you probably know that I think it would be better if DEN just took away all their gates because of the useless airline that they've become. F9 is ranked 2nd in number of complaints, only eclipsed only by their Chief Executive's last employer, NK. And after all the fees, I've found F9's tickets to be comparable to other airlines anyways.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 49):
If DL wants to expand, it would certainly be in their best interest to move to A as they could get additional gates rather than being stuck with 5 on C.

If F9 paid for relocation, DL would certainly not resist a move from C to A. They cannot expand in C, and A is more convenient for their passengers. Someone will also likely want the next round of gates F9 yields. Not sure how much it costs for an airline to move between concourses, but I suspect in F9's case it may be less than the annual gate-rental fees, as it was at MKE.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
My data shows ORD, some of DEN, and what remains in TTN have been doing well. The rest is not that great.

Your data and the profit numbers seem to be in some conflict.

If only ORD, DEN and TTN made money and the others all lost, ORD, DEN and TTN must be freakin' gangbusters financially.

Or it could be that those three markets make up 65% of all the company's flying...64.655% to be exact in 2015.

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, other than that the glass is for you, as so often, half-empty.

I'm saying ATL seems to have proven problematic like IAD did. You said yourself "IAD has proven to be more problematic". Doesn't mean the company is at risk and didn't say that; but since RASM declined for the industry and the legacies are afraid to reduce capacity as a group due to the anti-trust investigation, they really have no other move besides reclaiming revenue from ULCCs. The fact that ORD is working is an enormous achievement and pretty surprising if you went back in time and predicted that. Other things just don't work. Some things at DL aren't working. Some things at WN aren't working. It's just reality.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 70):
Or it could be that those three markets make up 65% of all the company's flying...64.655% to be exact in 2015.

Once again, if those three airports at 65% are making 100% of the profits - and more to make up for the others - that's darn good and - I think - a tad unlikely.

As to ATL, it may be "problematic" but as I've said several times, I find it difficult to take this coming winter schedule as representative - because of the fleet situation.

Speaking of the fleet, the new A320 (N230FR) seems to be making its delivery flight. Pretty tail - Betty the Bluebird - TLS-CFB-TPA.

http://xfw-spotter.blogspot.co.nz/20...sl-frontier-f-wwdn-n230ft-msn.html

mariner

[Edited 2015-10-08 13:59:54]
aeternum nauta
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting illinoisman (Reply 69):
If F9 paid for relocation, DL would certainly not resist a move from C to A.

I'm going to ignore all the ignorant things in that post and just get down to this. Why should F9 pay for DL to move to A? F9 gets NOTHING by moving DL to A so I see absolutely no reason for F9 to pay for it. Do explain. Or is this part of your bias too?
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 72):
Why should F9 pay for DL to move to A? F9 gets NOTHING by moving DL to A so I see absolutely no reason for F9 to pay for it. Do explain. Or is this part of your bias too?

I assume F9 is on the hook for these gate leases. Paying for DL to relocate could be the 'fee' that the city charges F9 to let them get out of the lease and so DL can locate to a location that allows for them to grow while freeing up more room for WN in C. It sounds like everyone would get something out of that deal.

tortugamon
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 73):
I assume F9 is on the hook for these gate leases.

Not beyond the end of the lease in 2016.

I can't imagine why Frontier should "pay" Delta one thin dime.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 73):
I assume F9 is on the hook for these gate leases.

In re-negotiating the leases with Denver, Frontier will save @ $3 million over the next year. If the Denver City Council approves the revised leases, F9 saves $$$ and the city can make some of the infastructure modifications that are needed (carpeting, seating etc....) with less disruption to the airlines and the traveling public.

Not sure how many flights per day Delta has via DEN, but would be surprised if they change concourses. Their position on concourse C is a prime location as it is.

Frontier 14
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 74):
Not beyond the end of the lease in 2016. I can't imagine why Frontier should "pay" Delta one thin dime.

OK, pay Denver City for early termination and Denver City who then incentivize DL to move. The point is it sounds like everyone wants something here and nothing has to come at the expense of another.

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 75):
F9 saves $$$ and the city can make some of the infastructure modifications that are needed (carpeting, seating etc....) with less disruption to the airlines and the traveling public.

I don't know these gates to be in terrible shape...

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 75):
Their position on concourse C is a prime location as it is.

Why is C better than A? I honestly like being able to walk to A and skip the tram.

tortugamon
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
OK, pay Denver City for early termination and Denver City who then incentivize DL to move.

If Delta wants to move to A, let Delta pay Frontier's early termination costs.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
I don't know these gates to be in terrible shape..

They are not in terrible shape. The carpeting in the area is "well worn", patched and stained since being laid when DIA opened. There are relatively few power outlets in the vicinity of these gates; and the west end wall area is an eyesore. The Denver airport queen has said, the freeing up of the gates would allow them to make needed improvements. Take that for what it is worth.........

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
Why is C better than A? I honestly like being able to walk to A and skip the tram.

Each to their own. The Delta gates, as you know, are right off the tram on concourse C requiring little walking as opposed, to where the soon to be open gates are at on concourse A.

Frontier 14
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 78):
Each to their own. The Delta gates, as you know, are right off the tram on concourse C requiring little walking as opposed, to where the soon to be open gates are at on concourse A.

Well it may not come down to being Delta's decision. They could very well be moved, especially if Southwest has its way and I assure you, the airport is much more focused on making WN happy over DL.
 
KBJCpilot
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 7:12 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:34 am

I can see Madam Kim converting the west end of A Concourse into 3-5 international gates with dual jet bridges and overhead corridors for arrivals to walk directly to US Customs like they have for the regular int'l arrival gates now. We all know of Kim's desire to bring in more international flights so this may be her way of getting there. In addition WN, OO, UA, and others are doing more international flying out of DEN and sometimes the arrival gates are squeezed for space so adding additional gates may make sense.
Samsonite, I was way off!
 
mcg
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 76):
Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 75):
F9 saves $$$ and the city can make some of the infastructure modifications that are needed (carpeting, seating etc....) with less disruption to the airlines and the traveling public.

I don't know these gates to be in terrible shape...

I think those gates are pretty bad, the worst at DIA. They are heavily worn, don't have enough seating and are very crowded. The slipped a couple extra long jet bridges on the end of the concourse (to give a then expanding F9 extra gates) and as a result that part of the airport is quite worn, imo.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1559
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:43 am

Good. Been a while since these two got tangled up on Frontier.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):

Quoting enilria (Reply 61):
I'm not saying they aren't smart, I'm saying that opportunities are more tactical than strategic in their current thinking.

Once again, we differ.

Much of what they are doing was laid down, conceptually, almost as soon as Indigo took control, and some even before. Franke hinted at the A321's in some of his earliest interviews, as well as the right sizing of DEN.

Growth at other stations has been obvious from the git-go, and they've been refining the Apple Vacations contract since the early days - I made a post about it here well over a year ago.

Certainly, they are opportunistic - CLE - and certainly a few things may not have worked - IAD has proven to be more problematic than they might have hoped.

But the essential strategy - north/south in winter and east/west in summer - was established by Siegel pre-Indigo, as well as the guiding mantra - fly where people want to go, when they want to go there.

I find it frustrating that they're making the jump to profitability look almost easy and part of me wonders why something of that strategy wasn't pursued by previous CEO's back in the bad ol' financial days of Frontier. One thing has been essential to that - divorcing itself from the almost total reliance on DEN.

mariner
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
It would appear ATL hasn't either if they are unable to fly ATL-MCO/MSY in Winter.

The ATL-MCO route has always been iffy (in my opinion) when covered from a ULCC, because the drive is about 7 hours, but on straight surfaced roads, and the drive is likely a better value than flying when in a group. Many families prefer the filling up the van/SUV approach and just driving down when the drive can be done.

It is a bit surprising it cut TTN so much, e.g. ATL-TTN. I would have figured it could keep TTN-ATL/CLT/RDU maybe over TTN-FLL. WN also doesn't cover ATL-EWR so F9 should have been able to be attractive for low fares from those north of Trenton but south of NYC.

TTN-FLL has plenty of competition from surrounding airports and F9 will be self-competing with it on PHL-MIA. B6 will also be adding seats on PHL-FLL. I suspect that F9 will pull out of PHL-MIA by summer if B6 and AA become too aggressive in fare matching and keeping low fares. And, if PHL has a mild winter, it'll likely not help.

[Edited 2015-10-09 08:30:05]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17920
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting FARmd90 (Reply 18):

I once dreamed of a B6 hub at DEN, but with WN, UA, and F9, B6 should keep to focus cities.

I have no idea where B6 could establish a Western hub. At this time, BOS, MCO, and FLL would be smarter expansion moves.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 83):
TTN-FLL has plenty of competition from surrounding airports and F9 will be self-competing with it on PHL-MIA. B6 will also be adding seats on PHL-FLL.
TTN-FLL is going daily in January, as are RSW and PBI, all for the first time.

mariner

[Edited 2015-10-09 11:57:57]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23730
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:49 pm

Aviation Week has a good feature story about Frontier this week.

Frontier’s New Ultra-Low-Cost Model Is Working
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...s-new-ultra-low-cost-model-working

=

Denver now represents under 50% of the airline capacity, and they no longer worry about facilitating customer connections at the airport with the new p2p schedule emphasis.

[Edited 2015-10-09 17:26:45]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:25 am

The first A321 arrived at TPA earlier this morning.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ontier-welcomes-first-a321-417595/

"PICTURES: Frontier welcomes first A321"

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 85):
TTN-FLL is going daily in January, as are RSW and PBI, all for the first time.

TTN-St. Augustine ends in JAN, though. Hard to believe it's seasonal Summer.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 88):
TTN-St. Augustine ends in JAN, though. Hard to believe it's seasonal Summer.

Why? It can be quite chilly, even cold at nights, there in January/February.

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 480 File size: 19kb


Assuming it does come back, the greater question is could it survive a move to daily flights, as Shurz has said they intend to do at TTN, and have done with TTN-FLL/RSW/PBI?

I have a soft spot for UST, but I'm not sure about daily.

mariner

[Edited 2015-10-09 21:21:05]
aeternum nauta
 
michman
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 74):
I can't imagine why Frontier should "pay" Delta one thin dime.

Yep, I can't imagine the city could legally force F9 to pay relocation costs. The DL lease is actually online at the denvergov.org website. The current lease is a 5 year lease from Jan 1,2012 - Jan 1, 2017. The City is actually the one responsible for paying relocation costs --

"After consultation with all affected airlines, in order to maximize the highest and best use
of the City’s airline facilities, the City may at its sole discretion, relocate and reassign the
Airline’s use and lease of the Demised Premises and Preferential Use Facilities upon sixty (60)
days advance written notice. The City will be responsible for reasonable costs related to any
such relocations and/or reassignments."


http://www.denvergov.org/sirepub/cac...rdu4f1/35577210092015095342395.PDF
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting michman (Reply 90):
"After consultation with all affected airlines, in order to maximize the highest and best use
of the City’s airline facilities, the City may at its sole discretion, relocate and reassign the
Airline’s use and lease of the Demised Premises and Preferential Use Facilities upon sixty (60)
days advance written notice. The City will be responsible for reasonable costs related to any
such relocations and/or reassignments."

Based on that, the airport will probably renovate the gate areas Frontier is leaving and bring it up to Delta standards and then pay for Delta to move to that space and then Southwest gets all of C and A was fixed before Delta moved.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 89):
Quoting enilria (Reply 88):
TTN-St. Augustine ends in JAN, though. Hard to believe it's seasonal Summer.

Why? It can be quite chilly, even cold at nights, there in January/February.

Perhaps, but I don't know a single person who has gone there for a Summer vacation. March, I definitely have.
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 92):
Perhaps, but I don't know a single person who has gone there for a Summer vacation. March, I definitely have.

I agree that March is likely part of peak season there. I assume some savvy pax might choose an MCO flight (because it was cheaper to do so, or works out to do so) and will drive to TPA or UST/JAX area, from MCO. It might be more prevalent with TTN-MCO going 2x daily, while TTN-TPA and TPA-UST are suspended (because of seasonal) or deleted.

[Edited 2015-10-10 07:07:01]
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9579
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 93):

According to T100 for JAX: MAR, APR, and MAY are all virtually equal. The other months of the year are lower. JUN/JUL/AUG are all lower than MAR. I would assume that since UST is going to attract beach-goers more, MAR is even more peak.
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 94):
According to T100 for JAX: MAR, APR, and MAY are all virtually equal. The other months of the year are lower. JUN/JUL/AUG are all lower than MAR. I would assume that since UST is going to attract beach-goers more, MAR is even more peak.

F9 has likely lost interest in UST, and interest was rather small with nominal service only to TTN. AA will have virtually no competition on it's nonstop PHL-JAX as well, and with high fares, it might suppress demand (from PHL). Southwest competed on that route against US for awhile. I wonder if G4 might try a semi weekly flight from JAX to CAK (in lieu of CLE) and maybe ACY (if AA at PHL will fare match and G4 doesn't want to deal with that issue), since G4 is running less than daily JAX flights to CVG and PIT.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 95):
F9 has likely lost interest in UST

That's entirely possible, too. As above, I worry about the future of UST because I don't know that it could support daily service.

But who knows? Once again, I don't think this coming winter schedule as representative of anything much, because Frontier is using it to rebalance the fleet. While they have some aircraft coming in, they're sending a bigger bunch of A319's away.

I have a question mark over several of the less-than-daily routes, such as DEN-BIS, because there has such been an obvious - blatant - change of strategy with Indigo. But what Indigo is doing is not unlike a bigger, grander version of Sam Addoms strategy to save the airline in the mid-90's when he dropped BIS first time around and refashioned the airline - which was then on its knees - into a "national" airline.

And there are parallels with the situation at DEN and the market share - and the gates. "Old" Frontier made money at DEN back in the very early 2000's with only about 10% market share (8.3% in 2001).

http://globaldocuments.morningstar.c...nt/ce57946c6f015ab0.msdoc/original

"Frontier’s fiscal year 2001 was our best year yet, as evidenced by record revenue, operating income and net income. Additionally, fiscal year 2001 marked the ongoing preparation for our largest undertaking to date, the Airbus fleet conversion."

As market share went up, profits declined and turned into losses. Now the balance has been restored - market share is down, but profits are up.

mariner

[Edited 2015-10-10 12:22:34]
aeternum nauta
 
B757capt
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 90):

Terminal moves are clostly for anyone. Cities nor airlines want to spend money on this unless there is a cost savings. I still can't understand any cost savings if DL is relocated. In fact, the way I understand is DEN makes money off of airlines using additional gates they do not own. Those preferential gates would turn into dedicated gates and the cities looses the ability to make additional unplanned revenue.

Thoughts?
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:53 pm

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 97):
Terminal moves are clostly for anyone. Cities nor airlines want to spend money on this unless there is a cost savings. I still can't understand any cost savings if DL is relocated. In fact, the way I understand is DEN makes money off of airlines using additional gates they do not own. Those preferential gates would turn into dedicated gates and the cities looses the ability to make additional unplanned revenue.

Thoughts?

DL moving is more for WN then DL. If WN wants those 5 gates and DEN has gates to give DL elsewhere, DEN will move DL.
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Frontier Wants Give Back 6 Gates At Denver

Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 96):
That's entirely possible, too. As above, I worry about the future of UST because I don't know that it could support daily service.

I figured UST was on marginal relevancy when it didn't try more markets (aside from IAD).

I would have figured CLE and MDW (then ORD) woiuld have worked better. But now with F9 to have A321s on routes like CLE-MCO, it might just need all the pax it can get to use the MCO flight rather than pitch those customers to take a UST flight. The area overlap is close is what I am inferring.

It's also relevant to some extent (in my opinion) for markets like RDU, GSO and CLT. If F9 runs a DEN-CLT, fares plummet, AA fare matches, and then WN decides to get in eventually. Possible outcomes.

While F9 is running it, would it want to restore DEN-GSO at the same time, when it needs all the pax it can get to profitably fill DEN-CLT?

[Edited 2015-10-10 14:06:11]

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos