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LAXintl
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US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:56 am

As we have discussed here previously, the US Customs and Border Protection shortlisted 10 airports for preclearance facilities earlier this year. ( US DHS Wants To Add 10 New Pre-Clearance Airports (by ScottB May 29 2015 in Civil Aviation) )

At this weeks Airport Council International annual conference taking place at LGB, US CBP Director of Preclearance Dylan DeFrancisci informed participants at a briefing that initial agreements had been reached with Sweden and Dominican Repulic and as result Stockholm Arlanda and Punta Cana would be the first new airports coming on line.

Mr. DeFrancisci in his comments stated that final agreements should be in place with both nations by end of this year, with much of 2016 being taken up with facility construction with goal of opening both facilities by Q1 or Q2 2017.

Also mentioned was expectation that US government was likely to reach accords with 3-4 additional nations in the coming year for such facilities.


Only media source I've found so far is in Swedish with airport operator Swedavia confirming the selection and that ARN pier-F would be modified to accommodate screening requirements for US bound flights.

http://www.flygtorget.se/Aktuellt/Artikel/?Id=11201

=

I'm sure Norwegian will appreciate the benefits with its growing Stockholm-US network, as I know they submitted letters of support for ARN during the initial selection process as it would further help Norwegian serve US airports with more limited FIS capabilities.
SAS customers likewise will benefit with arriving in the US as domestic passengers.

[Edited 2015-10-07 22:08:41]
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hz747300
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:38 am

I'm really curious about some of the choices, though PUJ makes some sense to me. ARN, just wouldn't seem to be worth it given the volume versus the cost. But who am I, just an amateur armchair airline CEO.
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tmiw
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:04 am

Great news for those airports, but I can't help but feel this is just papering over the real issues with the US immigration system that make clearing it within the US itself a hassle. Extending preclearance to more airports may be the best solution given current realities though.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:11 am

Quoting tmiw (Reply 2):
but I can't help but feel this is just papering over the real issues with the US immigration system that make clearing it within the US itself a hassle.

They should wait until Congress actually does work, and increases budgets for the Customs department of DHS? Good luck waiting for that!
 
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mercure1
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:38 pm

This is good news. After ARN, I hope a few more of the Europe airports on the short list are approved.
It is so much more pleasant to land in US and walk off airplane directly instead of playing slow bingo down in immigration control.

[Edited 2015-10-08 16:06:54]
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santi319
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:04 pm

I can't believe PUJ will be pre-clear before MEX or CUN! That's just crazy!
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 1):
ARN, just wouldn't seem to be worth it given the volume versus the cost. But who am I, just an amateur armchair airline CEO.

Sounds like ARN probably agreed to foot the bill for everything
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting santi319 (Reply 5):
I can't believe PUJ will be pre-clear before MEX or CUN! That's just crazy!

It is not. There are many political and idiosyncratic hurdles that prevent Mexican airports from having U.S. preclearance. I do recall reading that the Peña Nieto administration was looking into implementing preclearance or at least there were analyses being carried out.
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pgh234
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:06 am

I probably had 20 posts in the other thread over my strong dislike of the ever expanding waste of my government tax dollars. This does nothing for increased security (passengers are background checked before they step foot on a plane to the US) and nothing for increased convenience (same immigration dance on either end that you need to alot time for).

But now we have to hire a bunch more CBP agents, pay their living abroad stipend, maintain even more facilities, and manage and secure facilities well outside of our boarders...

Typical government. Why pay for governement bureaucracy once when you can pay for it twice? And...surprise, their propaganda tells us it will make things "more efficient and safer".

Can I get a job with CBP in PUJ? :P
 
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mercure1
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):
This does nothing for increased security (passengers are background checked before they step foot on a plane to the US) and nothing for increased convenience (same immigration dance on either end that you need to alot time for).

And yet 10,000's of thousands are somehow found inadmissible to the U.S each year once they land at the U.S. airport.

By screening people outside the US, you don't need the added infrastructure or cost to deal with them once on U.S. soil. That certainly must be beneficial.
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pgh234
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:13 am

Facts from post 165 in the other thread:

"In Fiscal Year (FY) 2012, CBP officers processed 15.6 million travelers for entry into the United States at international preclearance locations, which included 29 percent of all commercial aircraft and 18 percent of travelers arriving by air destined for the United States. Over 8,000 inadmissible travelers were intercepted at preclearance locations, allowing the U.S. government to avoid about $20 million in detention, processing and repatriation costs that would have been generated had they been caught upon arrival." (Source - http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/07/10/w...mittee-terrorism-nonproliferation)

So now that we know we "saved" $20 Million due to the propaganda provided above. Lets take a swag at the added costs conveniently not mentioned anywhere:

There are 17 Preclearance Stations. Lets assume 15 additional agents employed at each will be paid $65K salaries + $10k travel and living expenses. This is $19.1 Million

Now lets add in 15 bosses traveling around managing these stations or administering them from the US. Lets say they make $80K and have $20K in travel and living expenses. This is $1.5 Million.

Now lets guess about facility costs...everything from janitorial services to drug dogs and rent paid for office space to purchased vehicles. An absolute minimum of $300 K per year for the 17 stations which is $5.1 million.

And now we are up to nearly $26 Million in cost vs $20 Million in "savings". Now, this was just a swag (a very low ball one at that)...but as someone who works closely with government agencies, they never cease to amaze me in ways to waste tax payer money with bloat and inefficiency. In reality, my gut says the real cost of this $20 mil "savings" is well north of $200 Million.
 
airbazar
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:30 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):

And now we are up to nearly $26 Million in cost vs $20 Million in "savings". Now, this was just a swag

Indeed because you missed the most important part: The cost to actually build a new terminal that can cope with the growing number of foreign arrivals. Only someone who has never sat on an immigration line for 2+ hours thinks it's a bad idea to have pre-clearance stations. Hiring more agents isn't going to help if the current facilities are already maxed to the limit. Airports like BOS for example have little space to expand the international terminal. That forces airlines to funnel traffic thru the few large gateways that can accommodate extra passengers. That just compounds the delays at those large gateways even more. The solution is to have more gateways. If some have to be outside the U.S. then be it.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Indeed because you missed the most important part: The cost to actually build a new terminal that can cope with the growing number of foreign arrivals. Only someone who has never sat on an immigration line for 2+ hours thinks it's a bad idea to have pre-clearance stations.

Frankly, I find that to be a rather crazy argument. Our large and very underused CBP stations around the US have plenty of capacity.

1) I think it is exceedingly rare for the facility to be the problem. Nearly everytime I have gone through immigration, nearly HALF (or more!) of the CBP lines I have been empty. This includes the "busy" airports like JFK, EWR, ATL, LAX. I have taken 2 hours to go through immigration once...but that is because a quarter of the booths were not manned on one of the busiest travel days of the year. Every other time I go through immigration...the hold up has been luggage retrieval or the TSA (as if I have not already gone through security three times today...)

2) How will staffing all of those hordes of ARN and SNN 757's coming to the US even be noticable?

3) Have you never arrived at IAD at 9PM and waited 60 minutes because two agents were on duty? I sure have. There were about 40 empty booths surrounding them. Two 737's arrived at the same time.

4) Even if there is a need for bigger facilities that I cannot really fathom...there is NO WAY it is more cost efficient to built 17 new staffed stations around the planet vs expanding the two or three points that need it in the US.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 12):
Frankly, I find that to be a rather crazy argument. Our large and very underused CBP stations around the US have plenty of capacity.

So the under staffing at stations like MIA and DFW was actually due to sequestra?

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
And now we are up to nearly $26 Million in cost vs $20 Million in "savings"

So the loans that the govt. of the Bahamas supposedly used to assist in building our new pre-clearance facilities was corruption as the US government paid for everything?

I honestly did not know.
 
pgh234
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
So the under staffing at stations like MIA and DFW was actually due to sequestra?

The CBP is 99% funded by the fees you pay when you buy an international airline ticket. Plus, do not believe the self-serving things the government says about the Sequester. Remember how is was going to cause the end of the world? Well, it didn't. We could use 50 more Sequesters.

Source: http://openborders.info/blog/us-immi...ng-funded-by-user-fees-since-1882/

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
So the loans that the govt. of the Bahamas supposedly used to assist in building our new pre-clearance facilities was corruption as the US government paid for everything?

I honestly did not know.

As I said above in my example, I know that some if not most of these new facility costs abroad are covered by the host airport (just like they would be in the US). However...the remaining costs of maintaining and staffing new facilities will certainly fall on the CBP.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:18 am

When are we going to see preclearance at airports like LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/FCO/ZRH? Why are they opening outposts in cities that aren't even major hubs for flights to the US?
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 15):
When are we going to see preclearance at airports like LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/FCO/ZRH? Why are they opening outposts in cities that aren't even major hubs for flights to the US?

Because, as I understand it, most of those airports are agreeing to put in the new facilities in hopes or luring more flights to the US. It is quite a deal for them. They put up a few walls...and we spend millions to do the same thing there that we already do at home.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 16):
They put up a few walls...and we spend millions to do the same thing there that we already do at home.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that Americans will go to help other people before helping themselves.
 
PVD757
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:30 am

The CBP pays very little for the FIS facilities in most airports, the airports themselves design, build, and otherwise provide the station for the CBP but with their approval and cooperation. I am sure the same is true for foreign preclearance facilities. If you want this, you provide what the CBP asks for and let them know when they can move in!
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:41 am

How about putting preclearance in foreign airports with a lot of traffic to the US? Like LHR, CDG, FRA, NRT...
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LAXintl
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 19):

How about putting preclearance in foreign airports with a lot of traffic to the US? Like LHR, CDG, FRA, NRT...

Yes some of those are on the CBP announced short list. Its pending negotiations with foreign governments.

US DHS Wants To Add 10 New Pre-Clearance Airports (by ScottB May 29 2015 in Civil Aviation)

=
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b747400erf
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):

Typical government. Why pay for governement bureaucracy once when you can pay for it twice? And...surprise, their propaganda tells us it will make things "more efficient and safer".

Maybe you should turn off Fox News

Helping people come to America for business and leisure is great for an economy that is struggling to regain momentum after the financial crisis. It is a net gain to the economy no matter how much is spent on services.

Instead of complaining about pennies being wasted you should be complaining about the hundreds of billions wasted by your military.

(And go to school for a real education where they teach you how to spell the word "government" can help too)
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:04 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 17):

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that Americans will go to help other people before helping themselves.

Helping business and tourists spend money in America is not helping your country, other other people? It never ceases to amaze me the lengths Americans go to prove they had a very poor education and stopped learning once they left school. The internet does not need any more people blindly repeating conservative talking points that are not logical.
 
pgh234
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:34 am

Wow you just took this off track but I will respond in kind so that hopefully I can get some sort of response to my fact and discussion in post 10 about CBP operation.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 21):
Maybe you should turn off Fox News

Maybe you should turn off CNN, NPR, etc. Thanks for being concerned about my TV viewing habits...but I never watch any of that conservative and/or liberal vitriol because it is full of people like yourself making accusations who refuse to look at any sort of unbiased fact in their arguments. You need to get out of the house, meet some new people, and travel the world to formulate your own opinions.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 21):
Helping people come to America for business and leisure is great for an economy that is struggling to regain momentum after the financial crisis. It is a net gain to the economy no matter how much is spent on services.

How does doing the CBP dance over seas vs. once they get here make more people come to America?? And why is the economy struggling to regain momentum? (Answer: The Government) How is having two CBP facilities available on either side of my journey, full of their waste and bureaucracy, a net gain on the economy? Sounds like a drag to me.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 21):
Instead of complaining about pennies being wasted you should be complaining about the hundreds of billions wasted by your military.

I complain very strongly about the Billions being wasted on the Military Industrial Complex. There are more "pennies" being wasted by the government everyday than you can possibly imagine. However, this thread is about the CBP...so I try to stay on that topic.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 21):
(And go to school for a real education where they teach you how to spell the word "government" can help too)

Sorry about my misspelling (It was late). I am also sorry it is the only fact you brought up in your argument.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 22):
Helping business and tourists spend money in America is not helping your country, other other people? It never ceases to amaze me the lengths Americans go to prove they had a very poor education and stopped learning once they left school. The internet does not need any more people blindly repeating conservative talking points that are not logical.

The CBP is doing nothing to help tourists spend money in America. It is a net gain of zero here. You have to a lot an hour on either end of your journey to do the CBP dance. The CBP will now raise their fees to pay for all of these Pre-Clearance Facilities (The cost has to come from somewhere...right? Money does not grow on trees.) So how are more expensive plane tickets to America supposed to help our economy?
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:22 am

Quoting santi319 (Reply 5):

I can't believe PUJ will be pre-clear before MEX or CUN! That's just crazy!
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
It is not. There are many political and idiosyncratic hurdles that prevent Mexican airports from having U.S. preclearance.

CUN built their "new" terminal 10 years ago to handle it. It's just not a priority for the USA because they consider it low risk.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
So now that we know we "saved" $20 Million due to the propaganda provided above. Lets take a swag at the added costs conveniently not mentioned anywhere:

LOL

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
Lets assume 15 additional agents employed at each will be paid $65K salaries + $10k travel and living expenses. This is $19.1 Million

Very low estimate. I've heard it's double that because they reimburse foreign income tax, offer housing assistance, etc.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
And now we are up to nearly $26 Million in cost vs $20 Million in "savings". Now, this was just a swag (a very low ball one at that)...but as someone who works closely with government agencies, they never cease to amaze me in ways to waste tax payer money with bloat and inefficiency. In reality, my gut says the real cost of this $20 mil "savings" is well north of $200 Million.

Probably

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 18):
The CBP pays very little for the FIS facilities in most airports

There is a fee on your ticket at most airports for the FIS which goes to the airport.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 23):
The CBP is doing nothing to help tourists spend money in America.

Here is the irony. On the one end there is BrandUSA which is in effect a lobbying organization intended to fight for tourism into the USA. On the other hand there's DHS whose job is basically to make it more difficult to visit the USA by making it more invasive and more expensive. Both are funded by the U.S. taxpayer to be on opposite ends of the issue, although Brand USA is also funded by the entry taxes and it was increased a few years ago so they could promote the USA more aggressively for visitors while making the entry taxes even more uncompetitive.
 
jcwr56
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:50 pm

In the end, this is not about passenger convenience, but how the US wants to extend its' borders as far out as possible for security purposes only.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 25):
In the end, this is not about passenger convenience, but how the US wants to extend its' borders as far out as possible for security purposes only.

That is what it is really. US is very concerned about the terrorists with clean Visa free passport arriving in US and doing damages here. The airports that need to get the pre clearance are CDG, LHR, BRU, AMS etc. But basically any EU airports generally.
 
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 12):
Frankly, I find that to be a rather crazy argument. Our large and very underused CBP stations around the US have plenty of capacity.

At IAH last year I spent 2+ hours to clear immigration and every single counter was occupied.
In BOS for example, we have lots of unused counters but no gates at the international terminal for the increasing number of international flights so adding more personnel will do little to cope with demand. Those are my 2 recent experiences. One way or another additional terminal space is needed at a lot of airports and no one wants to pay for it.

Quoting airDFW (Reply 26):
That is what it is really. US is very concerned about the terrorists with clean Visa free passport arriving in US and doing damages here.

Uh? This will not prevent any of that, so try again.
Any potential terrorist with a clean visa that would arrive in the U.S. will still arrive in the U.S. regardless of whether the immigration checks are done in Europe or in the U.S. in other words, if you can get past DHS here you can get past DHS there.
This is about increasing the number of flights to the U.S. without building new airport infrastructure because it has become increasingly difficult to expand airport infrastructure in this country. Like so many other things, there is so much bureaucratic and nimby opposition that it has becomes easier to send the job overseas.
 
N1120A
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):
But now we have to hire a bunch more CBP agents

Why? The Stateside ones would need fewer.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):
maintain even more facilities, and manage and secure facilities well outside of our boarders...

They are maintained, managed and secured by the locals.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):
pay their living abroad stipend,

That is the one extra.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 9):
And yet 10,000's of thousands are somehow found inadmissible to the U.S each year once they land at the U.S. airport.

Which is ridiculous, in and of itself.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
Lets assume 15 additional agents employed at each will be paid $65K salaries + $10k travel and living expenses.
Quoting pgh234 (Reply 10):
Now lets add in 15 bosses traveling around managing these stations or administering them from the US. Lets say they make $80K and have $20K in travel and living expenses. This is $1.5 Million.

     . You WAY underestimated the costs of those salaries and travel/living.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 14):
We could use 50 more Sequesters.

Absolutely not. It would destroy the economy.
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par13del
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 14):
Remember how is was going to cause the end of the world? Well, it didn't. We could use 50 more Sequesters.

Funny thing is, most do not want to admit that any economic good came / is coming from it, no one wants lower government spending with lower debt increase.

Quoting airDFW (Reply 26):
The airports that need to get the pre clearance are CDG, LHR, BRU, AMS etc. But basically any EU airports generally.

Its a nationalistic thing, folks would have a hard time accepting that while they are standing on their own soil, they are being denied entrance to the USA by an American in uniform also on their soil  

On a practical side, most of the airport terminals would require some serious re-configuration, and while it could be done, you would be hard pressed to win over the tax payers on spending their money to assist folks travelling to America having their own terminal.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 9):
And yet 10,000's of thousands are somehow found inadmissible to the U.S each year once they land at the U.S. airport.

By screening people outside the US, you don't need the added infrastructure or cost to deal with them once on U.S. soil. That certainly must be beneficial.

This. I don't know if this is the primary driver, but it should be near the top of the list. Also airlines should want this as it saves them deportation flight costs if it's their mistake.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 21):
Maybe you should turn off Fox News

Helping people come to America for business and leisure is great for an economy that is struggling to regain momentum after the financial crisis. It is a net gain to the economy no matter how much is spent on services.

Instead of complaining about pennies being wasted you should be complaining about the hundreds of billions wasted by your military.

(And go to school for a real education where they teach you how to spell the word "government" can help too)

It's obvious by all your off-topic rants on a.net that you have an intense hatred of the U.S. That's fine, it's your preference. It's also obvious you know very little of U.S. politics and the U.S. economy. If you insist on discussing U.S. politics or economics on an airline message board (?!), I suggest you at least get yourself a basic education on said subjects. Otherwise you're just trolling...

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 23):
Maybe you should turn off CNN, NPR, etc. Thanks for being concerned about my TV viewing habits...but I never watch any of that conservative and/or liberal vitriol because it is full of people like yourself making accusations who refuse to look at any sort of unbiased fact in their arguments. You need to get out of the house, meet some new people, and travel the world to formulate your own opinions.

This is also good advice (for anyone).
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airzona11
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 22):
Helping business and tourists spend money in America is not helping your country, other other people? It never ceases to amaze me the lengths Americans go to prove they had a very poor education and stopped learning once they left school. The internet does not need any more people blindly repeating conservative talking points that are not logical.

Please do tell me from your podium of superior education, what is so blindly incorrect about his statements?

Everyone from across the pond seems to argue Americans should embrace more government spending and denounces military spend for being so frivolous and wasteful. It is the SAME people making the SAME frivolous wasteful decisions.

There is no way around it, this will cost more money. Whether taxes or fees, passengers are the ones that will be forced to pay. Airlines want to provide it as a perk for their premium fliers? Fine, they pay for it.
Business Travelers concerned? Pay for Global Entry.

If a business is going to spend thousands of dollars to send an employee to the US for business trip, a few minutes of immigration control is not going to the tip the scales to not send the employee.

For tourists, what is their primary concern? PRICE. This is something that will cost them more money, price is what is going to effect their decision to travel on vacation.
 
pgh234
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Why? The Stateside ones would need fewer.

I have never seen a government agency shrink...have you?

To keep it on a small scale...if I fly PUJ-PIT. Those handful of agents are still employed at PIT to staff that station for other international flights...as well as additional (and more expensive) agents now at PUJ.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
They are maintained, managed and secured by the locals.

If that is indeed true...that is quite worrisome to me that the night-time cleaner and overall security protocol for access to the facility is under the control of a foreign power. That opens up a TON of security loop holes (as if there were not enough already). Basically, another one of the reasons I feel we need to keep these procedures inside of the US.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
    . You WAY underestimated the costs of those salaries and travel/living.

Oh I know I did. However, there are some rather inexperienced minds around here that have yet to experience reality, so I did not want to stir argument from them. As I said, I place the cost well north of $200 Million...not $20 Million. Even $200 Million is but a small penny of what is wasted everyday...but all of those pennies add up.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 25):

In the end, this is not about passenger convenience, but how the US wants to extend its' borders as far out as possible for security purposes only.

This is what they say at least. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I do not understand how conducting the exact same CBP dance abroad is more secure than doing it here? I understand not having the hassle of shipping back denied folks...but that cost is well over shadowed by the savings of not having 100 different vulnerable staffed CBP facilities abroad.

I mean, for the love of god, if you can get into a foreign country (i.e. Canada)...you can just walk across our border. Go check for yourself on Google street view. A road will dead end at the US border and we put up a sign saying "You are not allowed to go any further" and that is it. How will staffing a damn CBP point in ARN or PUJ of all places prevent a terrorist from flying to the US (vs. Stopping him in the US and turning him around)...and also prevent him from flying to Canada and walking across the border?

Like I said before...how can I get a job as a CBP agent in PUJ? haha
 
jcwr56
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 32):
This is what they say at least. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I do not understand how conducting the exact same CBP dance abroad is more secure than doing it here? I understand not having the hassle of shipping back denied folks...but that cost is well over shadowed by the savings of not having 100 different vulnerable staffed CBP facilities abroad.

If I can find the link to the Congressional hearings on this topic, you'll see how they laid out the whole song and dance routine to get approval. Remember how Congress threaten to pull funding and yet now we have host countries paying the tab.

It's like the TSA; all for show.

Just wait till a foreign government through bi lateral agreement demands their own preclearance on U.S. soil at major airports and expects the Feds to pay for it.

By the way, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying at all. It looks great on paper, but we'll pay way more in the end.
 
hz747300
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 24):
CUN built their "new" terminal 10 years ago to handle it. It's just not a priority for the USA because they consider it low risk.

There are two sides to it. One is risk, one is convenience. For me, as a US person abroad, there is no indication that the government wants to do anything really to make my life convenient. CUN would be perfect actually because any large volume destination, especially tourist destination could really benefit the people (god forbid!). For CUN, it would allow direct access to smaller markets for seasonal holiday service too.

Hong Kong, Tokyo, and London, come to mind too. On that list, I would say Hong Kong would be the easiest as they are rebuilding T2 anyways, it is a perfect time to add pre-clearance into the terminal, as it is more or less a single building, and they could just assign gates 1-4, or 14-19 to US flights.

The airports will struggle to do this. But with Heathrow doing a rebuild of T3 why not build out the infrastructure for this anyways?

Haneda would not have space, but Narita would, and it could easily be carved out one of the existing terminals. The last time I was the JAL/CX terminal, it was in serious need of a refresh. This would also benefit the numerous military personal too flying AA. The ANA/UA terminal was quite nice already.

Given the military angle, Incheon would be a good idea too.

With so many billions wasted every year, here's a chance to really do some good with real, or real-ish, money.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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mercure1
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:30 pm

Spain gives cool reception to having US clearance at Madrid

http://www.elconfidencial.com/empres...previa-para-vuelos-a-eeuu_1065520/
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enilria
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 34):
there is no indication that the government wants to do anything really to make my life convenient.
Quoting hz747300 (Reply 34):
With so many billions wasted every year, here's a chance to really do some good with real, or real-ish, money.

Completely agree. It is a joke that CUN doesn't have it. There are probably 10 cities that would service. CUN better figure out a way in before Cuba takes their traffic away.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 36):
Completely agree. It is a joke that CUN doesn't have it. There are probably 10 cities that would service.

CUN might actually SAVE money by reducing the need for staffing at places like BNA and IND that have no (or virtually no) other non-precleared international service.
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DSS787
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):

It would be nice to have it in CUN. Mexican President Pena Nieto has signed an agreement to allow US CBP agents to be armed in Mexico, and we have allowed Mexican Customs agents to be armed and conduct pre inspections of cargo out of Laredo, TX. It will come eventually, but US/MEX are starting slowly I think. I can guarantee the new MEX will have it when it is built.

As far as risk, CUN is very low risk, majority US citizens and it is fairly easy to process US citizens upon return. Yes the lines are long, but with the APC machines the process has become a lot faster. CBP is concerned about stopping potential threats as far away from the US borders as possible, not as a convenience to travelers. Maybe back in the day it was about convenience, but today the world has changed and the mission of CBP is to stop terrorists and their weapons before they come to the US. They are looking to get major transit hubs, and apparently anyone else willing to pay for it... A place like BNA or IND does not get a lot of INTL flights and 3-4 CBP officers can handle a flight of 130 people coming in 2-3 times a day, whereas a place like JFK has 7 heavies coming in at the same time to one terminal packed with 300-400 people.
 
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enilria
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Quoting enilria (Reply 36):
Completely agree. It is a joke that CUN doesn't have it. There are probably 10 cities that would service.

CUN might actually SAVE money by reducing the need for staffing at places like BNA and IND that have no (or virtually no) other non-precleared international service.
Quoting dss787 (Reply 38):
not as a convenience to travelers.

It's not about efficiency. It's not about convenience. AND it's certainly not about saving money. It's about SPENDING money. They have zero interest in doing anything that will cut their own budgets. One wonders how it doesn't become eventually inevitable that government overtakes the whole economy. While sequester is a blunt instrument, those who follow individual industries as closely as we do can see the waste and lack of interest in saving money, but if the budget isn't continually expanded they will scream about how terrorists will gain access if we don't put preclearance in ARN. What a joke.

Quoting dss787 (Reply 38):
As far as risk, CUN is very low risk, majority US citizens and it is fairly easy to process US citizens upon return.

And ARN is high risk? Sorry, can't stop laughing. CUN has more risk than ARN. It's much easier to sneak into Mexico than into Sweden.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 8):
But now we have to hire a bunch more CBP agents, pay their living abroad stipend, maintain even more facilities, and manage and secure facilities well outside of our boarders...

Really? i thought preclearance airport picked up much of the tab for this. Happy to stand corrected if this is not so.

Quoting enilria (Reply 24):
CUN built their "new" terminal 10 years ago to handle it. It's just not a priority for the USA because they consider it low risk.

I understand that there are also some mexican legal issues regarding pre-clearance in mexico. As some one else posted above, it is being worked on but might be a few years.
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Birdwatching
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:09 pm

Let me add some more thoughts to the discussion that were left completely unmentioned (or almost unmentioned) in all 40 posts above... they are neither pro or against pre-clearance, just some more thoughts.

1) having pre-clearance at airports like ARN where low-cost flights depart (Norwegian) would allow them to fly into airports in the US that have no international facilities.

2) I read lots of complaining about long lines at CBP in the US. Will this become better now that more and more arriving passengers will be processed by an automated process? (Not only Global entry, but also those CBP kiosks that everyone can use)

3) If another country (let's say Germany) wanted to build their own pre-clearance in the US, with German agents working there, would the US allow it?

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DSS787
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):

How do you figure? In terms of drugs? Ok maybe, probably yes, but that is not the PRIMARY mission of CBP. The primary mission is to stop terrorists from entering the US and their weapons. There are far more individuals from terrorist affiliated countries or people that the US considers high risk in ARN and that country than in CUN. Think of the flood of "refugees" coming in to Europe. Eventually they will be able to get citizenship. I have seen MANY people from countries of interest naturalized in Sweden, Denmark, Norway. Also, the US and CBP have a pretty decent idea of who is arriving in Mexico by air, obviously not by land. the "threat" is more there than CUN. I personally would like to see it in CUN and one day it will come, but probably not soon.
 
LGAviation
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 41):
3) If another country (let's say Germany) wanted to build their own pre-clearance in the US, with German agents working there, would the US allow it?

I'd love to see a UK or Schengen pre-clearance in the US one day. But let's be honest about ourselves, we're doing a great job handling everybody over here without significant waiting times. Having passed through Schengen border controls probably 30+ times this year, the worst I've had was like 15 mins in Milan MXP. So there's no real need for that stuff to move over the Atlantic and in terms of risk it might make more sense to deploy Schengen agents to our Eastern neighbors.
Patriotism aside, I am not sure about whether we would be able to deploy Bundespolizei to the US, but at least the US-Canadian treaty is two-sided giving the Canadian Gov't the option to establish pre-clearance posts at major US airports as well as rail stations in the same manner that the US maintains its facilities in Canada. Nevertheless, the Canadians so far opted not to do so most likely due to the same reasons.
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hz747300
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:21 pm

Guys & a few Gals, I just received an email from the US Gov't stating that with my Global Entry card, I can apply for automatic entry into the UK. It also says that 'low risk' UK peoples will be able to take advantage of Global Entry in reverse.

Last time I went to the US, I have to say I love Global Entry. No more bazillion questions about living abroad from a social misfit on a high horse. Just a few questions from a modified ATM machine programmed to be a slightly nosey high horse.
Keep on truckin'...
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
And ARN is high risk? Sorry, can't stop laughing. CUN has more risk than ARN. It's much easier to sneak into Mexico than into Sweden.

current refugee trends would say otherwise...

CUN is low risk

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 43):
Patriotism aside, I am not sure about whether we would be able to deploy Bundespolizei to the US, but at least the US-Canadian treaty is two-sided giving the Canadian Gov't the option to establish pre-clearance posts at major US

I do not see why not. Germany has military bases in the US and vice versa, for example.

If diplomats work hard enough anything is possible. The bigger issue could be Schengen itself. I know several folks in Germany got miffed when the Dutch started working with GE, for example.
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B4REAL
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting santi319 (Reply 5):

I can't believe PUJ will be pre-clear before MEX or CUN! That's just crazy!
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
CUN might actually SAVE money by reducing the need for staffing at places like BNA and IND that have no (or virtually no) other non-precleared international service.

CUN would be good. Just DL in January of 2015 operated flights to ATL, BOS, CVG, CMH, DTW, BDL, IND, LAX, MEM, MKE, MSP, BNA, JFK, MCO, RDU, SLC, TPA and IAD (most Saturday only)....

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 15):
When are we going to see preclearance at airports like LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/FCO/ZRH? Why are they opening outposts in cities that aren't even major hubs for flights to the US?

DXB is the best current example with what EK and soon-stopping DL operates...

**BUT** For the record, I don't like pre-clearance. Best example is Canada, especially Toronto, really poor post-clearance terminal setup...

Bahamas (NAS) was good, YHZ is good. Calgary was pretty good, but I do a lot of travel to Toronto and it's really a wreck, puts a bad taste in my mouth RE: Pre-clearance.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 1):
I'm really curious about some of the choices, though PUJ makes some sense to me. ARN, just wouldn't seem to be worth it given the volume versus the cost. But who am I, just an amateur armchair airline CEO.

Pure politics - as in "We're not going to let the Swedes get away with this -- we want one too."

Expect choices 3 to 10 to be in place by the end of 4th Q.  
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:18 am

"The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced that they intend to negotiate with ten airports (and their respective governments) to expand U.S. Customs & Border Protection pre-clearance:

AMS, LHR, MAN, MAD, BRU, NRT, ARN, OSL, PUJ, & IST.

" target=_blank>http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...l-Pre-Clearance#.VWjPHc9VhBc"


And I would pay any fee to pre-clear at either LHR or AMS.
 
RemoFlyer
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RE: US CBP: ARN And PUJ Agree On Pre-Clearance

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:23 am

I found these two statements, made by the same person to be somewhat ironic, to say the least.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 23):
You need to get out of the house, meet some new people, and travel the world to formulate your own opinions.
Quoting pgh234 (Reply 32):
I mean, for the love of god, if you can get into a foreign country (i.e. Canada)...you can just walk across our border. Go check for yourself on Google street view.

Sometimes, I think, people forget that the internet has a very failsafe way of recording every single comment that we make.

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