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ilyag
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UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:15 am

According to Israeli news site Ynet, United is planning to start a nonstop SFO-TLV flight beginning from 3/30/2016.
The flight will be initially flown 3/week (departing TLV on Sun/Tue/Fri) with 787-9

The article (in Hebrew only)
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4708486,00.html

Didn't see other references to this but ynet is usually pretty credible.

This is going to be the first 787-9 in TLV!
 
EL-AL
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:27 am

So since American Airlines dropped the Israeli market, Delta decided to add 4 flights a week from JFK, and United is adding new destination to/from TLV to the US.

Such unprofitable market!
every day is a good day to fly
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:44 am

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 1):
So since American Airlines dropped the Israeli market, Delta decided to add 4 flights a week from JFK, and United is adding new destination to/from TLV to the US.

Such unprofitable market!

I don't think TLV is an unprofitable market. I think PHL might not have been the correct city. New York to Israel is a gigantic market. We'll see how well SFO will do. I think UA probably has an idea of how many people are currently flying SFO-EWR-TLV. I am guessing that there are a lot of connecting passengers so UA thinks they can make a nonstop work.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
jfk777
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:00 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
I don't think TLV is an unprofitable market. I think PHL might not have been the correct city. New York to Israel is a gigantic market. We'll see how well SFO will do. I think UA probably has an idea of how many people are currently flying SFO-EWR-TLV. I am guessing that there are a lot of connecting passengers so UA thinks they can make a nonstop work.

While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.

I'm not expert enough to know whether LAX would have been better than SFO from am economic/operational standpoint.

But I do know that I'd rather fly LAX-SFO-TLV than LAX-EWR-TLV any day of the week, and not just whatever three days UA will be offering a choice.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
I don't think TLV is an unprofitable market. I think PHL might not have been the correct city. New York to Israel is a gigantic market. We'll see how well SFO will do. I think UA probably has an idea of how many people are currently flying SFO-EWR-TLV. I am guessing that there are a lot of connecting passengers so UA thinks they can make a nonstop work.

Interesting. I assume Silicon Valley is behind this flight. It's certainly a gamble if it's true and I would never have expected UA to start SFO instead of ORD or IAD. But between this and the eventual increase in capacity to the 77W on EWR TLV UA will be making good money there.
 
ilyag
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.

I guess UA is after the business market that files between SFO-TLV. I know first hand that this route is very busy with lots of high quality one-stop competition (BA, LH, LX, TK). UA bets on schedule sensitive business passengers to prefer the nonstop option and thus the flights are offered on the busier days (Sunday is particularly busy for TLV->SFO as people are travelling for Monday business meetings, Saturday SFO-TLV is going to be full as well with the folks returning after the busy work week to be ready for work on Sunday)
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:19 pm

I think the thread title should mention that this is a rumor though as Y.net tends to make premature announcements, like announcing CX HKG TLV six months ago when nothing is official.

Would this be the first time UA has flown its own metal from SFO to somewhere east or south of Germany on TATL?
 
a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:21 pm

Very surprised they opted for SFO over ORD, if the rumor is true. But maybe the tech traffic is so strong ?

This is great news if it's true, but let's not celebrate too early.
 
Rookinla
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.

LY already flies LAX-TLV. I've flown this flight and, although the flights generally go out very full and there is substantial traffic, there isn't room for a second carrier on this route.
And UA can get better feed from SFO than LAX for this route. I do think that ORD may have made more sense but SFO will work better than LAX would have for UA. And LA does have a large Jewish population. I can tell you that, except for Star Alliance statused passengers, most ethnic travelers will choose LY if given a choice.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:30 pm

AA had/has an expensive judgement against them.

Looks like they were originally going to move PHL to JFK and MIA, but something changed. Probably reenforcement of the original judgement.

DL and UA do not have that albatross around their respective necks when serving Israel.
 
behramjee
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:35 pm

SFO is UA's main hub on the U.S. West Coast and not LAX hence why SFO was chosen as the beyond connections via SFO for UA is far more superior in strength.

With regards to SFO vs LAX for traffic to TLV (round trip), the figures below are for 2014 full year:

LAX - 151,000 pax
SFO - 49,000 pax

Yields on SFO-TLV are 20% higher than LAX-TLV.

Since people will ask, the comparable stats to other U.S. cities in terms of traffic demand in 2014 were as follows:

JFK - 610,000
EWR - 230,000
ORD - 54,000
IAD - 30,000
PHL - 28,000
BOS - 39,000
MIA - 43,000
IAH - 22,000
DFW - 17,000
SEA - 15,000

[Edited 2015-10-08 05:41:37]
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:36 pm

SFO also has a large Jewish population and the high tech links between the two cities/regions are undeniable. That being said, I'm super upset that they didn't choose ORD. I'm starting to think that ORD-TLV is just a crazy pipe dream.
 
flyiguy
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:49 pm

I'm surprised its not from IAD with all the Capital to Capital traffic and being within range easily for a 767 if needing to go that small.

FLY
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a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
That being said, I'm super upset that they didn't choose ORD. I'm starting to think that ORD-TLV is just a crazy pipe dream.


I feel your pain. I was guessing ORD too, but given that UA picked SFO (if rumor is confirmed), this would push ORD-TLV back at least 5 years (on any carrier)

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10):
AA had/has an expensive judgement against them.

Looks like they were originally going to move PHL to JFK and MIA, but something changed. Probably reenforcement of the original judgement.

I thought on the PHL-TLV cancellation thread, the defenders were swearing their mother's lives that it was all about profitability and nothing else, and that anyone suspecting otherwise is a conspiracy theorist  
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
I'm starting to think that ORD-TLV is just a crazy pipe dream.

I thought LY had unofficially announced MIA and ORD on the 787.
 
FSDan
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 11):
ORD - 54,000
Quoting behramjee (Reply 11):
SFO - 49,000 pax

ORD-TLV is only slightly larger than SFO-TLV, and I bet the yields are a lot higher out of SFO because of the aforementioned tech traffic. I don't think SFO-TLV is that surprising of a choice.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
I'm starting to think that ORD-TLV is just a crazy pipe dream.

LY purchased 787s, and I'd be very surprised if ORD-TLV isn't one of the routes they start up with those, as well as probably MIA-TLV.
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United1
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:31 pm

Quoting ilyag (Thread starter):
The flight will be initially flown 3/week (departing TLV on Sun/Tue/Fri) with 787-9

Wasn't expecting that however probably should have...when Xi'an was announced there were rumors of another less than daily flight to Asia being launched out of SFO as well.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:37 pm

Proving once again the 787 being a game changer ..... SFO-XIY and SFO-TLV are beyond the wildest dreams of many
 
rwsea
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):

While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 5):
I assume Silicon Valley is behind this flight. It's certainly a gamble if it's true and I would never have expected UA to start SFO instead of ORD or IAD. But between this and the eventual increase in capacity to the 77W on EWR TLV UA will be making good money there.

There is a LOT of tech traffic between the Bay Area and Israel.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:57 pm

I can confirm.

Schedule is:

WeFrSu
SFO-TLV 2000-2010+1

TuFrSu
TLV-SFO 0055-0600
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cyxuk
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:05 pm

Any reduction in EWR TLV, or is this all additional capacity?
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:06 pm

Just in...UA is adding SFO-AKL 3 days a week in July 2016...going daily in Oct. 2016

Big day at UA.

http://newsroom.united.com/2015-10-0...hen-Found-3-Ways-to-Make-it-Better

[Edited 2015-10-08 07:08:39]
 
a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 22):

Just in...UA is adding SFO-AKL 3 days a week in July 2016...going daily in Oct. 2016

Big day at UA.

here's the source

ir.united.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=83680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2095522

MAJOR news day ..... UA is really giving SFO all the love it deserves !!!!
 
TW870
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:08 pm

According to great circle mapper, TLV will be the longest trip for UA out of SFO - although just 4nm longer than SYD! I wonder which would average longer in the winter due to winds?
 
b747400erf
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:09 pm

surprised the ME3 hasn't come to the TLV market   

The business traffic is going to be big, a lot of tech growth in both areas.

But can it fill a 789? Time will tell.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:10 pm

The Press release also adds SFO-AKL starting in July 2016 3 times per week, going daily in Sept 2016.

http://ir.united.com/phoenix.zhtml?c...3680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2095522
 
simairlinenet
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:18 pm

Press release: http://ir.united.com/phoenix.zhtml?c...3680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2095522

Also, SFO-AKL (being discussed here): UA To Start SFO-AKL (by simairlinenet Oct 8 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
ilyag
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:19 pm

TLV schedule published by UA :
Flight From To Departure Arrival
UA954 SFO TLV 8 p.m. We/Fr/Su 8:10 p.m. the next day
UA955 TLV SFO 12:55 a.m. Tu/Fr/Su 6 a.m. the same day

I find it very clever and expect to be very successful with the tech folks that usually travel on the weekends
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:22 pm

Yes Silicon Valley was a driver of this flight

[Edited 2015-10-08 07:22:39]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
RJNUT
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 25):
surprised the ME3 hasn't come to the TLV market

Qatar has come the closest to any semblance of trade/diplomatic relations ..UAE probably no way...but its all a long ways off, I believe .


they have TK and RJ at least , and to a small degree, MS (via Air Sinai)
 
IAHWorldflyer
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:31 pm

They're really throwing the 787's at SFO. Major switch from Spring 2015 plan to base most at IAH for LatAm operations. Considering the 747's are in another reliability crisis over the last month, hopefully the 787's in SFO can bring some reliability to those schedules. I think the A350's can't come soon enough from a maintenance perspective.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 31):
They're really throwing the 787's at SFO. Major switch from Spring 2015 plan to base most at IAH for LatAm operations. Considering the 747's are in another reliability crisis over the last month, hopefully the 787's in SFO can bring some reliability to those schedules. I think the A350's can't come soon enough from a maintenance perspective.

Running 787s IAH-LatAm is a waste of the plane's capabilities when 763/764 can do the jobs just fine. Now the routes really put the plane to good use - long-n-thin, exactly what the 787 was meant to be.
 
ORD Boy 2
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:42 pm

I am suprised. I thought ORD would get the flight (and it may some day), but good to see TLV getitng love from UA.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10):
AA had/has an expensive judgement against them.

Looks like they were originally going to move PHL to JFK and MIA, but something changed. Probably reenforcement of the original judgement.

Wasn't that from the TWA days?
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 25):
surprised the ME3 hasn't come to the TLV market   

Haha, however TK is huge at TLV with 9 daily flights and has been trashing yields there.
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:19 pm

Congratulations to SFO! DEL, TLV, XIY, AKL - unique additions to SFO's already long destination list.

UA has finally fulfilled their promise of starting AKL flights.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:21 pm

Meanwhile, over at IAD and IAH....UA announces it is up-gauging several domestic routes from ERJ-145s to CRJ-700s and some CRJ-200 routes to E-170s....May through October only.

  

in all seriousness, these are some pretty cool new flights from SFO. definitely good to see some out of the box thinking.
 
32andBelow
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
I don't think TLV is an unprofitable market. I think PHL might not have been the correct city. New York to Israel is a gigantic market. We'll see how well SFO will do. I think UA probably has an idea of how many people are currently flying SFO-EWR-TLV. I am guessing that there are a lot of connecting passengers so UA thinks they can make a nonstop work.

I'm sure they will get a ton of flow from socal if the price is right.
 
superjeff
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 34):
AA had/has an expensive judgement against them.

Looks like they were originally going to move PHL to JFK and MIA, but something changed. Probably reenforcement of the original judgement.

Wasn't that from the TWA days?

Yes, the litigation was over termination/severance obligations when TWA closed their TLV station when they filed Bankruptcy and sold assets to American. Apparently, Israeli law doesn't allow a company to avoid those types of obligations by filing bankruptcy, even though all AA did was, in fact, purchase certain TWA assets out of the bankruptcy estate.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 38):

I'm sure they will get a ton of flow from socal if the price is right.

UA doesn't even need to discount LAX-SFO-TLV all that much to attract traffic. Even though it's domestic F to SFO vs. flat beds to JFK/EWR, the idea of

1. really quick short 1 hr hop to SFO then 15 hours of sleep
and
2. avoiding ATC congestion of NYC

far outweighs the domestic F downside of it.
 
ec99
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 25):
surprised the ME3 hasn't come to the TLV market

Also, from the USA or Europe, their hubs are all 1000+ miles out of the way. If an American or European wants a better first or business experience, flying TK through Istanbul makes much more sense.
 
ytz
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
We'll see how well SFO will do.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
Very surprised they opted for SFO over ORD, if the rumor is true.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
But maybe the tech traffic is so strong ?

Most people are still not aware of how strong Israel's tech sector is.....

And surely traffic between two tech hubs will lead to this:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 11):
Yields on SFO-TLV are 20% higher than LAX-TLV.

A 15hr direct flight is absolutely awesome for this route. This is exactly the type of route the 787 was made for.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 41):
If an American or European wants a better first or business experience, flying TK through Istanbul makes much more sense.

TK's J is good but nothing extraordinary, and they have no F. I believe LX is the only carrier sending F seats to TLV and even then they sell the product as J and people connecting from F can get in those seats for free, or others can pay for it, but in any case it's still J service.
 
jayunited
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
While SFO is a UA hub Los Angeles would be the right city for Israel since LA has a large jewish population.

If you are not a UA employee then you don't have access to Flying Together, however below is a direct quote from Flying Together explaining why UA is launching SFO-TLV instead of LAX-TLV.

"As part of our evaluation for serving SFO-TLV nonstop, we considered the opinions of thousands of customers who petitioned for the service through the SFOTLV.ORG petition effort.
"Providing corporate customers from throughout the Bay Area and Silicon Valley nonstop service to the high-tech market in Israel has been high on our priority list at United," said Worldwide Sales SVP Dave Hilfman. "Now with the 787-9, we're delighted to make it a reality.""

As you have just read this service is in direct response to UA's corporate customers asking for non-stop service UA is not really targeting tourist with the SFO-TLV flight however I suspect if the flight meets financial expectations then UA might add more frequency or even make it daily some time down the road. However with that being said I think UA will be able to charge a lot more money for SFO-TLV than they would be able to charge for LAX-TLV.
 
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United787
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
I'm super upset that they didn't choose ORD. I'm starting to think that ORD-TLV is just a crazy pipe dream.
Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
I feel your pain. I was guessing ORD too, but given that UA picked SFO (if rumor is confirmed), this would push ORD-TLV back at least 5 years (on any carrier)

I am not sure ORD-TLV will ever happen now... but maybe ORD can get ATH, BOG or LIM instead... come on UA, throw us a bone.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
WeFrSu
SFO-TLV 2000-2010+1

TuFrSu
TLV-SFO 0055-0600
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 22):
Just in...UA is adding SFO-AKL 3 days a week in July 2016...going daily in Oct. 2016

Is it me or is the less than daily new route trend that I am seeing on UA a new thing? Seems to be a carry over from CO since I don't remember UA kicking off any new long haul routes that weren't daily...IIRC...
 
32andBelow
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 40):
UA doesn't even need to discount LAX-SFO-TLV all that much to attract traffic. Even though it's domestic F to SFO vs. flat beds to JFK/EWR, the idea of

I guess the only advantage of going EWR is that you are at least going in the right direction. However, I agree the flight time is negligible for SAN/LAX/ETC to SFO.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 45):
Is it me or is the less than daily new route trend that I am seeing on UA a new thing?

Could be a combination of testing the market first as well as a lack of available aircraft to do all these long-haul routes right away. I believe UA is seeing a net loss of 6 widebody aircraft next year. A few 744 retirements, 772A conversion to domestic and only 8 more 787s arriving in this order with the last ones arriving in June 2016.
 
United1
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RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 47):
Could be a combination of testing the market first as well as a lack of available aircraft to do all these long-haul routes right away. I believe UA is seeing a net loss of 6 widebody aircraft next year. A few 744 retirements, 772A conversion to domestic and only 8 more 787s arriving in this order with the last ones arriving in June 2016

The 77As are being converted in 2016 and 2017 so I am not sure if the net loss of 6 aircraft calculation works out.

In 2015/2016 UA is retiring 4 744s and between now and 2016 year end is taking delivery of 1 77W and 8 789s with the balance of the 77Ws coming online in early 2017. If they start converting the 77As in late 2016 after the peak summer season the fleet actually grows a bit....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Rdh3e
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: UA Starts SFO-TLV With 787-9

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 45):
I am not sure ORD-TLV will ever happen now... but maybe ORD can get ATH, BOG or LIM instead... come on UA, throw us a bone.

We got DUB/EDI/SNN. That's not nothing.

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