airliner371
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Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:32 pm

Southwest is on offense now with its new ad campaign. Making up this new word for the campaign but also bringing out the facts. Southwest is out with a new study showing the Southwest Effect is still alive and well.

http://www.swamedia.com/presskits/ou...t-effect-is-alive-and-well?l=en-US

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdHgMX0I0wc

In addition they also kicked off a new website www.transfarency.com to compare Southwest to the other airlines. This is a very big ad campaign.

----
Also something that's in the commercial but nothing we've seen yet, they changed the color of their seat covers on the plane they video taped. The seat is all blue (presumably bold blue) and the bulkhead is the new one that is supposed to come with the new Southwest seat next year. Since this new seat is going to be only on the new -800s and the MAX aircraft, is Southwest going to be retrofitting its -700s and the evolve -300s with this new seat cover and bulkhead to try to match the new look of its new seat on the -800s? This hasn't been announced or seen yet but heres the screenshot from the promo.

http://swamedia.com/presskits/southwest-airlines-new-aircraft-seat


[Edited 2015-10-08 11:43:46]
 
dc10lover
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RE: New Southwest Ad Campaign "Transfarency"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:40 pm

"Southwest Effect is still alive and well"

As Southwest connects the dots, i do hope they add new cities also. Yes, they tend to go into larger cities. I would still love to see EUG added someday.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:59 pm

I am surprised that Allegiant's fees were not included in comparison chart. As G4 adds more WN competitive routes, I would think
WN would be somewhat proactive in making G4 fees aware to potential pax switching over to G4. At least the ones that don't know of fees.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
flyoregon
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 1):
As Southwest connects the dots, i do hope they add new cities also. Yes, they tend to go into larger cities. I would still love to see EUG added someday.

I bet they will in the next 10 years. There are only so many more cities in America that are "big" for Southwest. Second/Third tier American cities seems logical for growth.
 
dbo861
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:47 pm

New seats, but still no power outlets. Or even USB ports. Disappointing.
 
ty97
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:50 pm

"Supply and Demand is alive and well"
 
barney captain
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 4):
New seats, but still no power outlets. Or even USB ports. Disappointing.

The employees made this objection loud and clear when the new seats were debuted a while back. Maybe if enough people express their disappointment, they will listen.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:25 pm

So its also Southwest Airlines Media Day in Houston. Some other tidbits to note that I've gathered online:

-Here's a look at some of the proposed new Southwest Uniforms
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ms-in-20-years-other-changes.html/
http://twitter.com/wandrme/status/652210977996304384

-Expanding in-flight beverage options with new mixed drinks
http://www.southwest.com/assets/pdfs/travel-extras/inflight_menu.pdf

-Testing new mobile devices for Flight Attendants will begin later this year

-New Meridian seat launches in May 2016, no retrofits, only new aircraft

-Evolve seats WILL get the new blue seat cover and bulkhead to match look of Meridian seat but will keep the evolve seat itself

-Even with new Meridian seat, no desire to cram another row of seats

-Southwest is cautious about potential Cuba expansion

-Aware the wifi performance is lousy and is working on it

-70% of Southwest pax are non-stop, 30% direct or connecting

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 4):
New seats, but still no power outlets. Or even USB ports. Disappointing.
Quoting barney captain (Reply 6):
The employees made this objection loud and clear when the new seats were debuted a while back. Maybe if enough people express their disappointment, they will listen.

Agreed. Even a little USB port would be beneficial.

[Edited 2015-10-08 13:25:55]
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:44 pm

I love the website. The headline says:

$0 First and second bag fly for free*
$0 No change fees*
$0 Free Live TV*

Each asterisk has a disclaimer in very tiny print at the bottom

* First and second bag subject to size and weight limitations (okay, not a big deal - still a good value)
* No change fee but subject to fare difference, which there almost always will be
* Free Live TV available for a limited time only


Seems like they aren't being completely transparent. I mean when you compare them to Spirit Airlines, or maybe Allegiant or even Frontier you could say that they are a better value but Southwest is no longer the low fare leader as compared to the majors. Often times they're more expensive than the majors.

[Edited 2015-10-08 13:45:04]
 
steex
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting ASflyer (Reply 8):
Southwest is no longer the low fare leader as compared to the majors. Often times they're more expensive than the majors.

They of course extract fare premiums where they are able, they're running a for-profit business. The discussion of value requires multiple considerations, and the idea of the Southwest effect these days isn't that Southwest is absolutely the cheapest on the bottom end, but moreso that they are cheaper on the top end than the majors would be without Southwest's presence. There is always a very noticeable difference between walkup fares between city pairs that do and do not have Southwest competition (whether that be nonstop or connecting).
 
badgervor
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting ASflyer (Reply 8):
Southwest is no longer the low fare leader as compared to the majors. Often times they're more expensive than the majors

I found that to especially be true in markets with little to no competition. Tried to book a flight MKE-LAS back in May and it came to $1,054.00 round trip for the "wanna get away fare". Went on priceline and got a $378.00 fare out of ORD on AA.
 
n471wn
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 1):
As Southwest connects the dots, i do hope they add new cities also. Yes, they tend to go into larger cities. I would still love to see EUG added someday.

The glaring hole in their network is FAT
 
psa188
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:35 pm

This is great. While I realize that airlines must make a profit to stay in business, I fail to understand the logic of nickel and diming the passenger with extra nuisance fees on top of the airfare. I've discussed this with my co-workers, friends, family and business associates, and there is a general consensus among us that airlines should charge one honest fare and eliminate the extra fees. Southwest gets it.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting ASflyer (Reply 8):
* No change fee but subject to fare difference, which there almost always will be

This exactly depends on when one change their flights. A flight booked at super low fare way in advance has a good chance of being changed for the same fare for a while, esp. if one wants to delay their travel.
A last minute expensive flight can also be changed usually at little or no fare difference, and (not even in the "fine print" but...) if the new flight is cheaper, a voucher is issued for future travel and voila. There is also no limits (as far as I know) on how many times one can change their flight (only limit I'm aware of it to stay within 1 year of original ticket purchase date)

Quoting ASflyer (Reply 8):
Seems like they aren't being completely transparent. I mean when you compare them to Spirit Airlines, or maybe Allegiant or even Frontier you could say that they are a better value but Southwest is no longer the low fare leader as compared to the majors. Often times they're more expensive than the majors.

I hate to say that they generally are $ per $ within same fares as the majors on same itineraries involving same airports, but they take a big lead at the instant one has checked bags and/or needs to make changes to their flight. The majors usually have more frequent flights and are more likely to have non-stops, if out of one major hub. They fail on anything else.

If WN is not completely transparent, then the other majors are as opaque as a thick cloud of volcanic ash.

Quoting badgervor (Reply 10):
I found that to especially be true in markets with little to no competition. Tried to book a flight MKE-LAS back in May and it came to $1,054.00 round trip for the "wanna get away fare". Went on priceline and got a $378.00 fare out of ORD on AA.

Sure, but MKE is not ORD. ORD also is not MKE. Apples. vs. Oranges. Your point is moot. What can AA offer on MKE-LAS? Probably nothing better than a connection through hell (a.k.a. ORD) and a longer journey. Also, it might have cheaper to fly to LAX over LAS.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 2):
I am surprised that Allegiant's fees were not included in comparison chart.

How many average Americans do even know about the existence of Allegiant? Sounds like it would have been one unnecessary extra line to dilute their message.
When I doubt... go running!
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:44 pm

Here's a closer look at the Heart Cabin Interior, watch it on your phone for a 3D look at the cabin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hC4_bt1amM
 
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FLIHGH
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:54 pm

All of the fees aren't even quite accurate. JetBlue checked bags start at $15, something the website completely ignores.
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting FLIHGH (Reply 15):

All of the fees aren't even quite accurate. JetBlue checked bags start at $15, something the website completely ignores.

The JetBlue website begs to differ...

http://www.jetblue.com/travel/baggage/
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:14 am

Quoting airliner371 (Thread starter):
Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"  

Southwest effect in 2015...that is adorable. Bless their heart. 
Quoting airliner371 (Thread starter):
Southwest is out with a new study showing the Southwest Effect is still alive and well.

WN finds WN supported study on WN shows WN effect still alive and well. Seems legit!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ty97
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting FLIHGH (Reply 15):

All of the fees aren't even quite accurate. JetBlue checked bags start at $15, something the website completely ignores.

Jetblue is complicated because bag fees (or lack thereof) depend on the fare you by. The cheapest of their economy fares have bag fees. Other economy fees don't. It's a bit too complicated to fit in a simple airline comparison chart.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
While I realize that airlines must make a profit to stay in business, I fail to understand the logic of nickel and diming the passenger with extra nuisance fees on top of the airfare.

You call it "nickel and diming".... others might refer to it as "only requiring you to pay for what you actually use," and thus appreciate it as such.



Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
Southwest gets it.

One could argue Spirit's margins (relative to Southwest) show that they "get it" even more clearly.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
dc10lover
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:49 am

Southwest Airlines zings competitors' fees in new ads

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...petitors-fees-in-new-ads/73613386/
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
jman40
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 6):
The employees made this objection loud and clear when the new seats were debuted a while back. Maybe if enough people express their disappointment, they will listen.


Why did the employees object to power or USB? Because of added maintenance? I don't understand what there is to object to, quite honestly..
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting jman40 (Reply 21):
Why did the employees object to power or USB? Because of added maintenance? I don't understand what there is to object to, quite honestly..

No, objected to fact that they there will be none. everyone wants it
 
jman40
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 22):
No, objected to fact that they there will be none. everyone wants it

Ahhh! That makes sense. My brain is already on the weekend. Thanks for the clarification!
 
chrisair
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:45 am

Quoting ASflyer (Reply 8):
but Southwest is no longer the low fare leader as compared to the majors. Often times they're more expensive than the majors.

Their low end fares seem more expensive recently, but I've found their refundable fares are generally less expensive than DL or AA/US. It's not uncommon to see DL charge $1500 for a refundable Y when WN wants $500.

And believe me, getting stuck with a $200 change fee from AA is not fun. That happened to me twice in August.
 
dbo861
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 24):
And believe me, getting stuck with a $200 change fee from AA is not fun. That happened to me twice in August.

Exactly. People keep hating on Southwest, but the no baggage fees and flexibility to change your flight up to 10 minutes before departure without any change fees makes Southwest worth it for me as my travel plans change often.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):

Quoting psa188 (Reply 12):
While I realize that airlines must make a profit to stay in business, I fail to understand the logic of nickel and diming the passenger with extra nuisance fees on top of the airfare.

You call it "nickel and diming".... others might refer to it as "only requiring you to pay for what you actually use," and thus appreciate it as such.

Like charging to use the overhead bin? Yeah, nickel and diming.

Also, what's more transparent, Southwest advertising a fare and that's what you pay, or Spirit advertising a fare and then when you click through the pages of their website to book your flight, and you find out that advertised fare is only a fraction of what you'll end up paying?
Quoting badgervor (Reply 10):
I found that to especially be true in markets with little to no competition. Tried to book a flight MKE-LAS back in May and it came to $1,054.00 round trip for the "wanna get away fare". Went on priceline and got a $378.00 fare out of ORD on AA.

I think with Southwest, if you book far enough in advance the ticket prices are normally cheaper, at least on the routes I've looked at. You're always going to find examples where Southwest is the cheapest, and where they're much more expensive. I recently was looking for tickets DSM-LAS around holidays. I already knew I was going to fly on Southwest, but for shits and gigs I went to Allegiant's website to see how much money I could be "saving." For the exact same days, Allegiant tickets were $200 more for the round trip, not including all of their ridiculous fees. And Allegiaint is supposed to be a ULCC.



[Edited 2015-10-09 05:56:21]
 
crazytoaster
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):

Exactly. People keep hating on Southwest, but the no baggage fees and flexibility to change your flight up to 10 minutes before departure without any change fees makes Southwest worth it for me as my travel plans change often.

Agreed. For me the best part is the flexibility to change flights. I like to book a lot of leisure travel when I get a good deal and I may end canceling / changing it later on if the dates don't work.
DEN homebase. Frequent traveler to IND and RNO.
 
SunsetLimited
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):
Like charging to use the overhead bin? Yeah, nickel and diming.

Not if you still save a bunch of money over a regular WN ticket, which clearly could happen. The NK example they used was poor, because not everyone will be needing all of those ancillary services when they fly NK (or, pick your airline). Many people take a 3-4 day trip with just a carry on. Many people don't care where they sit. Heck, you better not care where you sit when you fly WN, right? Unless you pay the extra $ for pre-boarding. Even with the "extra" fees included, you can still come out way ahead of WN in many cases. WN generally doesn't offer the low fares they used to be known for, except when they have a fare sale.

So basically, if you're the kind of flyer who will require checked bags every time you fly, and you have a tendency to make a lot of changes to your ticket, WN would offer a good value. But I certainly don't see people abandoning the other carriers mentioned in this article just because WN bundles all of the products in one fare.
Spread hope like fire.
 
dbo861
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting SunsetLimited (Reply 27):

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 25):
Like charging to use the overhead bin? Yeah, nickel and diming.

Not if you still save a bunch of money over a regular WN ticket, which clearly could happen. The NK example they used was poor, because not everyone will be needing all of those ancillary services when they fly NK (or, pick your airline). Many people take a 3-4 day trip with just a carry on. Many people don't care where they sit. Heck, you better not care where you sit when you fly WN, right? Unless you pay the extra $ for pre-boarding. Even with the "extra" fees included, you can still come out way ahead of WN in many cases. WN generally doesn't offer the low fares they used to be known for, except when they have a fare sale.

I'm not arguing with you. There are plenty of times when I'm booking tickets and Southwest is more expensive than the other airlines, especially if it's the week of departure and the Wanna Get Away fare isn't available. You're always going to be able to find examples where Southwest is the cheapest, and when Southwest is the most expensive even with all of the extra fees.

But getting back to the theme of this thread, people argue that the "Southwest Effect" is dead, tell that to the people of Des Moines where since Southwest passenger counts for the entire airport have skyrocketed and airfares on all airlines have dropped. In many cases, they've dropped below what Southwest charges on the route..but much cheaper than what the fares were before. And I guarantee, the day Southwest leaves DSM, which I fear will happen sooner than later, those airlines will jack their prices back up to the pre-WN days.
 
ncflyer
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:34 pm

I saw Herb give a talk years ago, it was a brilliant speech. This is what "southwest effect" means to me, and it comes from his speech. He said "we're not competing against other airlines, we're competing against Greyhound, or against people who are choosing not to travel." (this is a lot like what Spirit or Allegiant say nowadays).

I'm sorry but based on my experience, and in my home market, CLE, the southwest effect is in fact dead. Their hair raisingly low fares are long, long gone. They are often more expensive, especially if one has to fly two segments to get to the final destination. And because Southwest is much more hub focused than they used to be, the likelihood of a connection is very, very high. They fly nowhere direct anymore except the 8 or so focus cities, many of which are not on CLE's radar.

Proof: when CLE had the United Hub, Southwest was here, but CLE was still one of the highest fare airports in the country, it was in the top 10. When UA dehubbed, Spirit, JetBlue, and Frontier came in to town in a big way, and then fares plummeted. Southwest was simply not a difference maker.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting jman40 (Reply 23):
Ahhh! That makes sense. My brain is already on the weekend. Thanks for the clarification!

To be honest, nobody really gave a damn about the seat. The bigger story was the lack of power/ usb outlets.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):
One could argue Spirit's margins (relative to Southwest) show that they "get it" even more clearly.

They "get it" that you don't pay taxes on any "fees", which the government should change and go after. Those "fees" should be taxed just like the fares.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
rtalk25
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 29):
I'm sorry but based on my experience, and in my home market, CLE, the southwest effect is in fact dead.

Southwest was slow to move at CLE, likely because of the DAL and DCA buildup this year and last. It could have started CLE-BOS perhaps thwarting a B6 entry. In hindsight, CLE likely benefited with WN not responsive to add routes soon after CLE was dehubbed from UA, as B6 got it's foot in the door there.

WN has been aggressive lately with $49 CAK-ATL fares against NK and F9 up at CLE. F9 is abandoning CLE-ATL flying (or maybe seasonally). I wonder when WN will move that route up to CLE.

WN also has some low fares out on CAK-DCA route where fares are a lot cheaper than CLE-BWI, although WN stops flying the CAK-DCA route sometime soon.

[Edited 2015-10-09 10:32:26]
 
N1120A
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 11):
The glaring hole in their network is FAT

I agree there, especially as they could pull drive-in traffic from Bakersfield and up to Stockton.

Quoting ty97 (Reply 18):
Jetblue is complicated because bag fees (or lack thereof) depend on the fare you by. The cheapest of their economy fares have bag fees. Other economy fees don't. It's a bit too complicated to fit in a simple airline comparison chart.

B6 basically mirrors AA's choice system. Still, the lowest fares on a route tend to be uniform.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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N776AU
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:33 pm

Here in ATL by "alive and well" you mean a lower quality of service, cutbacks, and higher fares then yes.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting N776AU (Reply 34):
Here in ATL by "alive and well" you mean a lower quality of service, cutbacks, and higher fares then yes.

   or really anywhere WN is dominant. Check DALHOU fares to see that WN effekt on pricing.

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 29):
Proof: when CLE had the United Hub, Southwest was here, but CLE was still one of the highest fare airports in the country, it was in the top 10. When UA dehubbed, Spirit, JetBlue, and Frontier came in to town in a big way, and then fares plummeted. Southwest was simply not a difference maker.

   WN is still a formidable force but the WN effect these days is something every airline has; it's called competition.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
WN is still a formidable force but the WN effect these days is something every airline has; it's called competition

Yes, but WN does offer more fare competition. Look at ORD-CVG versus CHI-CMH. Each has three carriers with broadly similar shares, but the average fare to CMH is some $100 lower.

Heck, if you compare STL-MCI (which is a monopoly market for WN) to something like ATL-CLT (which has the "magical" competition), WN's fare are still lower.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
Look at ORD-CVG versus CHI-CMH.

CVG is a higher yield market. WN is maximizing revenue just like everyone else, and in recent years has been leading the charge on fare increases. They're no different; they just have lower costs than most of the competition.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
CVG is a higher yield market.

Of course, because yields track fares where stage lengths are similar. So, for a market that is higher-fare, whether because of a lack of LFCs or any other reason, yields on similar-length routes will necessarily be higher. I'm not sure what this proves.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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b777900
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:10 pm

Southwest is just a bad airline I wish they never came to DCA. Only because of Air Tran merger if not for that I do not think WN would ever have added DCA.
[i[b]]Prepare for Gate arrival, Gate 32
 
rtalk25
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RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
Of course, because yields track fares where stage lengths are similar. So, for a market that is higher-fare, whether because of a lack of LFCs or any other reason, yields on similar-length routes will necessarily be higher. I'm not sure what this proves.

While I do agree that an LCC competing in a nonstop market with legacies will result in lower fares for pax than a market with just legacies serving the nonstop, Southwest's choice of not serving medium size markets despite being one of the largest carriers and inheriting several through it's mergers, has led it's keep several cost advantages over it's legacy competitors. It's different business models, where Southwest does particularly well in large markets.

For example, in most categories a Wal-Mart will sell products cheaper than a nearby CVS, even though CVS will service far more areas like NYC or multiple locations within a town, where a Wal-Mart won't adapt to service some markets at all (like NYC). Or back to Southwest, a lot of medium size markets like CVG and TYS aren't adapted to be served. I do believe the DOJ have favored Southwest a bit unfairly over Delta (in DCA and DAL) while Delta will service those markets as well as larger markets, through connections from hubs.

[Edited 2015-10-11 08:14:41]
 
texdravid
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:21 pm

I have soured on WN recently for many reasons.

I live 5 min away from Love Field in uptown, but I feel that they have
"Grown too big for their britches".

They have high fares and are often more expensive than competing majors.

Case in point: I fly Dallas-Seattle frequently.

DAL-SEA is more expensive than DFW-SEA on AS/AA.
Furthermore, it has only one or two non stops vs about 12 on
AA/AS.

This is also evident on routes such as Dallas-Tulsa and other
Regionals and long hauls.

More expensive and less frequent options. I'm sorry, but the bags fly free
Doesn't make up for it at all, especially to frequent flyers who
have bag privileges and change privileges on the majors.

IMO, they have expanded too fast and customer service has gone down.
They are not cheap or convenient anymore.
I miss the old WN!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14043
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 40):
Southwest's choice of not serving medium size markets despite being one of the largest carriers and inheriting several through it's mergers, has led it's keep several cost advantages over it's legacy competitors.

What medium-sized markets do you contend that WN avoids? WN has large focus cities in places like Kansas City and Nashville that are arguably too small for legacy hubs. No one else is flying many routes like MCI-SAN or BNA-MSY, and no legacy is flying those routes with 737-sized aircraft.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
r really anywhere WN is dominant. Check DALHOU fares to see that WN effekt on pricing.

There essentially no competition on this route. Bad example
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
What medium-sized markets do you contend that WN avoids?

MDT, ABE, TYS, FAT, CVG, GSO.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17677
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
Of course, because yields track fares where stage lengths are similar. So, for a market that is higher-fare, whether because of a lack of LFCs or any other reason, yields on similar-length routes will necessarily be higher. I'm not sure what this proves.

You said CMHCHI was cheaper than CVGCHI because of WN, when it's just a cheaper market.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 43):
There essentially no competition on this route. Bad example

So they are free to extort transcon fares on a one hour hop? Not very transfarent 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14043
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
You said CMHCHI was cheaper than CVGCHI because of WN, when it's just a cheaper market.

How do you know it's "just a cheaper market?"

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 44):
MDT, ABE, TYS, FAT, CVG, GSO.

Which routes do you think WN would be able to make work from GSO or TYS?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3504
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:51 pm

The Southwest Effect is alive and well whenever I search for fares around the country. They're not always the cheapest, but by and large they are or force the legacies to match, which still leaves WN as the best value. The legacies will largely ignore NK's fares, but they don't often ignore WN. Another thing I find important is that one-way fares from legacies in an WN market are what they should be--half a round-trip. WN prevents gouging there.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 41):
DAL-SEA is more expensive than DFW-SEA on AS/AA.


Through the end of the year, AA/AS are price matching WN. And with WN, you get free bags, no change fees, and reusable funds on all fares. So Southwest is setting the lowest bar and has the best value for the economy class passenger. Flights to TUL are in the same situation. AA is price matching WN.

WN will never have the volume that AA has at DFW, but I wonder if WN would have more DAL-SEA flights if they weren't gate restricted.
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
Which routes do you think WN would be able to make work from GSO or TYS?

What might work from some markets is moot. My point was by WN not serving the range of the medium to smaller size markets like the legacies, it has led it to keep several cost advantages over it's legacy competitors. When Southwest decides not to be in MDT, some customers have to trek to BWI for more options. When it decides not to be in CVG, CMH attracts more pax. Southwest then attains a critical mass and can be a leader at the chosen airport.

My issue is not those differences of business models and airport selections, but ultimately at the DOJ that put Southwest on a pedestal because of the low fare image over all other factors, maybe through Southwest's national advertising, and most probably through BWI in the DC region, where the sphere of influence is high.

It would be like the DOJ favoring a mass discounter over the unionized grocery chain just because a discounter sells things for cheaper. One business has higher costs but serves in a beneficial way.

It blocked DL entirely in attaining DCA slots (on the AA/US merger) but allowed WN because of WN's BWI low faring and limited incumbency, and imposed no conditions even though WN has a massive hub/flight operation in the WAS area unlike DL. Ultimately WN was able to attain enough slots that it now holds more than UA at DCA.

The DOJ ultimately neglected the fact that Southwest cut several AirTran markets, and viewed Southwest as a limited incumbent in DCA, but disregarded entirely Southwest's massive hub up at BWI, and ultimately led Southwest to keep the DCA bidding steep enough over the much smaller competitors.

BWI is a pretty important airport for both perimeter and out of perimeter routes competition to DCA and IAD. I have no doubt that carriers' struggles at IAD are partly due to both BWI and DCA and not just DCA, and these airports aren't in isolated bubbles to each other.

[Edited 2015-10-12 10:15:53]
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Southwest Effect "Alive And Well"

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 48):
The DOJ ultimately neglected the fact that Southwest cut several AirTran markets, and viewed Southwest as a limited incumbent in DCA, but disregarded entirely Southwest's massive hub up at BWI, and ultimately led Southwest to keep the DCA bidding steep enough over the much smaller competitors.

So by that logic, UA never should gain another slot at DCA due to their hub at IAD?
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?

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