A35K Icao Designator

372375 · Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:51 pm

Just saw that ICAO uses the designator A35K for the A350-1000, which seems a bit odd considering the K is the 11th letter in "the" alphabet and especially since there has been talked about an A350-1100. Does anyone know why they don't use A35J as the official designator? Seems a bit confusing to me. Does Airbus have any influence on what ICAO decides on using?

817Dreamliiner · Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:55 pm

Its not odd at all. K is for kilo which represents 1000. Makes a lot more sense than J.

CXfirst · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):

Its not odd at all. K is for kilo which represents 1000. Makes a lot more sense than J.

I understand that reasoning, but generally, we have seen the letter placement in the alphabet used. Like 73G or even 73H (although 738 is more common).

A35K does leave a problem, if there is a further stretch to a possible A350-1100.

-CXfirst

Revelation · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):
A35K does leave a problem, if there is a further stretch to a possible A350-1100.

It will be A35L for eLeven hundred.

Of course, I'm just making this up. It really doesn't matter what they call it, does it?

N14AZ · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):
generally, we have seen the letter placement in the alphabet used. Like 73G or even 73H (although 738 is more common).

I never understood why ICAO cannot stick to the manufacturer's numbers such as 738 /773 and so on.

Polot · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 4):
I never understood why ICAO cannot stick to the manufacturer's numbers such as 738 /773 and so on.

They do. 73G is necessary to distinguish between the 737-700 versus just the 737 as a whole, 73H designates wingletted 738s (73W is wingletted 73Gs). Since most 737NGs are wingletted now, many airlines elect to just use the standard 73G/738.

773 is the 777-300, with the 77W being the 777-300ER.

These are mostly IATA codes btw. I believe the ICAO codes don't distinguish between wingletted 737s and not, and don't believe they uses the 73G designation for the -700. IATA is more specific.

[Edited 2015-10-09 07:25:10]

jcwr56 · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting rebr (Thread starter):
Just saw that ICAO uses the designator A35K for the A350-1000, which seems a bit odd considering the K is the 11th letter in "the" alphabet and especially since there has been talked about an A350-1100. Does anyone know why they don't use A35J as the official designator? Seems a bit confusing to me. Does Airbus have any influence on what ICAO decides on using?

This group decides designations.

www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Pages/sisc.aspx

[Edited 2015-10-09 07:36:05]

frigatebird · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):A35K does leave a problem, if there is a further stretch to a possible A350-1100.
It will be A35L for eLeven hundred.

Of course, I'm just making this up. It really doesn't matter what they call it, does it?

That's why the stretch was called A350-1200 in an article where someone actually asked Airbus about their plans of a possible A350-1000 stretch

zeke · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting rebr (Thread starter):
ICAO uses the designator A35K for the A350-1000

And B78X for the 787-10. The only place this designation is used really for all practical purposes is on the filed flight plan.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):
This group decides designations.

Thats for IATA codes, not ICAO codes. There is another set of codes which IATA use, eg the ICAO airport code for Hong Kong is VHHH, the IATA code is HKG. A 747 freighter has an ICAO code of B744, and an IATA code of 74Y. The ICAO code for the A350-1000 is A35K, the IATA code is 351.

Thenoflyzone · Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
The only place this designation is used really for all practical purposes is on the filed flight plan.

And ATC radar screens !

Thunderboltdrgn · Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Thats for IATA codes, not ICAO codes. There is another set of codes which
IATA use, eg the ICAO airport code for Hong Kong is VHHH, the IATA code is HKG. A 747 freighter
has an ICAO code of B744, and an IATA code of 74Y. The ICAO code for the A350-1000 is A35K
the IATA code is 351.

Wouldn't it be appropriate to start evolving to allow for 5/4 character codes?
So that a A350-1000 would be A3510, a A350-1100 -> A3511 and etc...?

Polot · Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it be appropriate to start evolving to allow for 5/4 character codes?
So that a A350-1000 would be A3510, a A350-1100 -> A3511 and etc...?

That requires basically reworking every piece of software used in the industry, and any one with programming experience knows what happens when you change a bunch of pieces of software at once...

Much easier to stick with current code size and use letters.

AirbusA6 · Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:35 pm

With the ridiculous inflation of model numbers from 200/300 to 800/900/1000, surely the stretched A350 will be the

A350-10000000000000 XWB XL

FlyCaledonian · Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:33 pm

Why not 351 for the A350-1000, given that we'll never see an A350-100.

In the same way, the 787-10 could be the 781, but 78X also makes sense given X is the Roman Numeral for 10.

If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

Stitch · Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

M is traditionally used by IATA to designate the combi models of a family, at least with Boeing frames.

So the 707 and 727 combi models are collectively known as the 70M and 72M. Same with the 74M for the collective 747 combis (individual combi models within the family have different designations: 74C for the 747-200, 74D for the 747-300 and 74E for the 747-400).

So they may have decided not to use M for the A350-1000 to prevent confusion as a combi or they went Metric (K) because Airbus is a European company.

The above being said, it was interesting they went with 78X for the 787 as "X" is used to designate some of the freighter models of a family:

72X - 727-100 freighter
73X - 737-200 freighter
74X - 747-200 freighter
76X - 767-200 freighter

31X - A310-200 freighter
ABX - A300C4/F4 combi / freighter

Of course, there will only be one 787 freighter model, so it can use 78F.

Though I do wonder if the 777-8 freighter (if built) will become the 77X.

[Edited 2015-10-09 13:19:21]

strfyr51 · Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:35 pm

Most of the ICAO designations are for Air Traffic Control, Just like you'll hear controllers call a flight "United 811 Heavy"
the Heavy is to designate a certain performance characteristic in climb and Cruise as a 73B might be different than a 73G
Controllers have to know what performance they can expect and that's how they do it. It's actually pretty neat because they pull the performance knowledge out like there's a "rolodex" behind their eyes
The designations are to standardize how the Air traffic Community handles the airplane.

Thunderboltdrgn · Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

It is but K is also the symbol for the SI prefix Kilo which is equal to 1000.

AirbusA6 · Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 16):
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

It is but K is also the symbol for the SI prefix Kilo which is equal to 1000.

And "K" is a very common abbreviation for 1000, especially in the financial world.
He earns 40k a month...

prebennorholm · Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:17 pm

When using the Latin alphabet to identify a sequence, then often the letter "i" is ignored. Simply because that letter has the potential to be confused with the digit "1".

When ignoring i, then K becomes the 10th letter in the alphabet instead of 11th. I'm not telling that it's the reason for A35K instead of A35J. But it could be so.

Think of the military Hercules. C-130H was superseded by C-130J. There never was a C-130i.

[Edited 2015-10-09 14:19:36]

Viscount724 · Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):
Quoting rebr (Thread starter):
Just saw that ICAO uses the designator A35K for the A350-1000, which seems a bit odd considering the K is the 11th letter in "the" alphabet and especially since there has been talked about an A350-1100. Does anyone know why they don't use A35J as the official designator? Seems a bit confusing to me. Does Airbus have any influence on what ICAO decides on using?

This group decides designations.

www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Pag....aspx

IATA is only involved with the 3-character IATA aircraft type codes, not the 4-character ICAO codes. Same thing with the IATA 3-letter airport codes used for reservations/ticketing purposes and the ICAO 4-letter codes used for ATC and other operational purposes. They each control their own codes.

N14AZ · Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 4): I never understood why ICAO cannot stick to the manufacturer's numbers such as 738 /773 and so on.
They do. 73G is necessary to distinguish between the 737-700 versus just the 737 as a whole, 73H designates wingletted 738s (73W is wingletted 73Gs). Since most 737NGs are wingletted now, many airlines elect to just use the standard 73G/738.

773 is the 777-300, with the 77W being the 777-300ER.

These are mostly IATA codes btw. I believe the ICAO codes don't distinguish between wingletted 737s and not, and don't believe they uses the 73G designation for the -700. IATA is more specific.

Thanks very much for your explanations.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
The above being said, it was interesting they went with 78X for the 787 as "X" is used to designate some of the freighter models of a family:

72X - 727-100 freighter
73X - 737-200 freighter
74X - 747-200 freighter
76X - 767-200 freighter

31X - A310-200 freighter
ABX - A300C4/F4 combi / freighter

Of course, there will only be one 787 freighter model, so it can use 78F.

Though I do wonder if the 777-8 freighter (if built) will become the 77X.

But now I am completely lost... you are referring to the IATA codes, correct? I just checked it up and there is already a 77X, the B777 Freighter. Source: http://www.avcodes.co.uk/acrtypes.asp

Maybe, in case of a 777-8 freighter, history will repeat itself and it will be called 77Y. That's what happened in case of the 747 freighter version:
74X B742 Boeing 747-200 Freighter
74Y B744 Boeing 747-400 Freighter

By the way, the ICAO code for the B777 Freighter is 77L, which is the Boeing 777-200LR pax version as per the IATA-code...

lugie · Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:07 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 18):
When ignoring i, then K becomes the 10th letter in the alphabet instead of 11th. I'm not telling that it's the reason for A35K instead of A35J. But it could be so.

Think of the military Hercules. C-130H was superseded by C-130J. There never was a C-130i.

That does in fact make sense, actually most widebody planes with more than 8-across in Y leave out the "I" when numbering seats, too.
In a 10-across 777 or 747 you'll normally find seats ABC DEFG HJK in a respective row

birdbrainz · Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:14 pm

Why does FlightAware sometimes put B764 and other times B764/L?

Obviously, it's a 767-400 (or -422 or whatever pmCO's customer code was).

twincessna340a · Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting birdbrainz (Reply 22):
Why does FlightAware sometimes put B764 and other times B764/L?

The letter after the "/" designates its navigation equipment type for flightplans/ATC. Maybe FlightAware doesn't always get the equipment code.

zeke · Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting birdbrainz (Reply 22):
Why does FlightAware sometimes put B764 and other times B764/L?

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 23):
The letter after the "/" designates its navigation equipment type for flightplans/ATC. Maybe FlightAware doesn't always get the equipment code.

Should be B764/H, means its wake turbulence category

Stitch · Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 20):
But now I am completely lost... you are referring to the IATA codes, correct? I just checked it up and there is already a 77X, the B777 Freighter.

I was working off an older list, which only had 77F for the 777 Freighter.

Technically, there is no 777-200 freighter, even though the 777 freighter does use the 777-200LR structure as its base. I am guessing 77X is a placeholder for 777-200/777-200ER passenger to freighter conversions.

ei a330-200 · Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
Should be B764/H, means its wake turbulence category

This is incorrect. As previously stated, B764 is the type, and the /L is the equipment suffix that describes navigational abilities as well as the ability to enter RVSM airspace.

Source: I'm an Air Traffic Controller.

Freshside3 · Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Think of the military Hercules. C-130H was superseded by C-130J. There never was a C-130i.

Quoting lugie (Reply 21):
That does in fact make sense, actually most widebody planes with more than 8-across in Y leave out the "I" when numbering seats, too.
In a 10-across 777 or 747 you'll normally find seats ABC DEFG HJK in a respective row

Maybe someone in the aviation industry will start using "i" since Apple computer made "i"-everything popular....

EA CO AS · Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
In the same way, the 787-10 could be the 781, but 78X also makes sense given X is the Roman Numeral for 10.

If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

Ugh, no one will ever agree on this even if I live to be C!

Viscount724 · Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 27):
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Think of the military Hercules. C-130H was superseded by C-130J. There never was a C-130i.
Quoting lugie (Reply 21):
That does in fact make sense, actually most widebody planes with more than 8-across in Y leave out the "I" when numbering seats, too.
In a 10-across 777 or 747 you'll normally find seats ABC DEFG HJK in a respective row

Maybe someone in the aviation industry will start using "i" since Apple computer made "i"-everything popular....

They skip the letter "I" in seat numbering since it's too easily confused with the number "1". The letter "O" and number "0" are also often avoided in various designation systems for the same reason.

zeke · Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:40 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
Why not 351 for the A350-1000, given that we'll never see an A350-100.

As i posted above, 351 is the IATA code for the A350-1000

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
If Roman Numerals were used with the A350-1000, then why not 35M over 35K?

I can see why Europe being metric would adopt K=1000, and I can see why somewhere non metric would adopt roman numerals.

Quoting EI A330-200 (Reply 26):
This is incorrect. As previously stated, B764 is the type, and the /L is the equipment suffix that describes navigational abilities as well as the ability to enter RVSM airspace.

This is the sort of things that is filed

A333/H-SDE2E3FJ2J4J5M1HIZWRGY/LB1D1

The A333/H is the A333 with Heavy wake turbulence category, the /LB1D1 in 10.b means mode s with aircraft ident, ADS-B out 1090mhz, and ADS-C.

Thats ICAO anyway, America thinks it knows better always and does things differently.

r2rho · Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:48 pm

I just hope that for the next new aircraft program the "8" fashion wears off and we have a normal -100/-200/... designation again...

Regarding the A350-1000: isn't the CRJ-1000 also the CRK? IMO it's as simple as K = kilo = 1000, not much more to it.

redzeppelin · Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
773 is the 777-300, with the 77W being the 777-300ER.

I've always seen it this way:
E=5, R=18, W=23, so E+R=W, hence the 77W. (77E was already taken by the 200ER.)

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