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TWA772LR
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:45 pm

What about a premium heavy configuration with same plane service to SYD? Like 16F, 60J, and remainder Y+?
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tortugamon
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:03 pm

The revised Boeing figures have a range on a 280-seat 789 as 7,635nm which is 265nm longer than a 77W. We regularly see 16-17 hour 77W flights. A QF 789 should have less than 280 seats (UA has 252 seats for example). As Sunrisevalley states above the 789 is improving and I believe the current 789 range does not yet reflect the Trent TEN engines which don't enter service until next year. The point is I don't think LHR-PER is that outrageous. I do have a harder time seeing PER-LHR without a 778 or an increased MTOW 789.

I agree that I don't see this as a 2017 route but I don't think its outlandish come 2019+ if oil remains reasonably priced. Splitting profits with EK when stopping in DXB makes the incremental ROI of bypassing DXB that much higher.

Quoting ben175 (Reply 32):
It always baffles me when people mutter on about how an 18 hour flight in Y is absolutely ludicrous when every day hundreds of passengers choose to fly 16-17 hours in an economy seat on QF from DFW to SYD.

One extra hour is not much of a difference at all. The average joe often finds the hassle of getting on and off planes and lingering around an airport for 2-3 hours on a layover very frustrating. Most people just want to get to their destinations as soon as they can.

Agreed. The thing is this route won't have to convince everyone that flying 18 hours is ok, just enough to fill the plane. I think they can do that.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 46):
Aircraft descending, getting out of the plane, going through security again, getting back and settling in again, taking off again, those are the parts of flying I'm not a big fan of. But once I'm in my seat and the plane is cruising, everything is comfy and I'm happy.

Absolutely agree.

tortugamon

[Edited 2015-10-10 13:10:17]
 
jfk777
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:31 pm

Qantas would be better with using the 787-9 on flights to the Americas, Latin America has some options. QF A330 can handle Asian flights with their Business Class. More flights to the USA should be the primary 787 mission.
 
WearyDrover
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:36 pm

While many on this site might find the thought of a 17 or 18 hour flight abhorrent, what do most passengers look for when making a booking? Price, convenience and schedules.

Once or twice a year flyers will possibly not even ask what type of aircraft it is or how wide the seats are. If the price is right, they will fly.
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tortugamon
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 53):
If the price is right, they will fly.

This flight will certainly be much more expensive to operate. It can't survive on price.

tortugamon
 
Viscount724
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 36):
Really the 789 at 9 abreast is not the most uncomfortable wide body.

But no match for any A380, unless anyone decides on the 11-abreast option which is doubtful.
 
Ryanair01
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:18 am

I wouldn't rule this out because on a basic level the economics look good..

With non stops from Perth QF could serve LHR double daily with 4 airframes.

Currently, serving LHR double daily (daily Sydney/ daily Melbourne) via Dubai takes a whooping 6 airframes. Sydney and Melbourne are the key markets, but in reality it makes no difference to people in those cities if their one stop is in Dubai or Perth (provided the airport experience is sorted out).

So, if QF cancelled the current schedule, started non stop flights from Perth to London, they could simply route London bound passengers from Sydney and Melbourne to Perth on their existing transcon flights (which already operate as a premium service) and save themselves 2 wide body airframes.

In fact 4x 789s would replace 6x A380s. Assuming you can maintain premium cabin revenue and volumes (14 First Seats and 64 Business Seats), which begins to counter balance the range/payload restrictions, then the economics begin to look pretty favourable.
 
jacobin777
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 49):
As qf002 pointed out on Australian Aviation, this is nothin more than attention grabbing media for the very good point that there is no way that they are launching PER-LHR with 8 787s.

IMHO when all is said and done QF will have >20 B787's in their mainline fleet.
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Razza74
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:50 am

IMHO QF seems to be following to a fair degree the mantra for international flights out of Australia of If it is not SYD MEL or BNE it is not going to happen and PER-LHR fits this.

We are slowly seeing the A330 being removed from the SYD MEL BNE - PER flights due to the downturn and deployed on international services out of SYD MEL and BNE

QF does not even run PER-AKL year round (much to NZ joy) a service that could be run PER-AKL-SYD and SYD-AKL-PER to fit with domestic A330 ops.
PER-SIN by QF is a token service at best by a 73H that would have otherwise been used to service the FIFO contracts but no longer required due to the downturn and the slow replacement of QF by Network and Qantaslink

In reality the economics of running ops out of PER is a challenge, there is no multiple large urban centres ie SYD MEL and BNE close to allow repositioning of a/c. PER is an end point, very little if any through traffic.

PER-LHR would have to start as a domestic service to get the equipment to PER and then transfer to int and with the current terminal setup in PER it will cost time and money

I do look forward to increased 787 services out of PER as living under runway 03 approach they are a lot quieter than the A330

Razza74
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aerorobnz
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:50 am

It will require an airline who operates the A350 or next gen 777 for both comfort and specification.
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WearyDrover
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 58):
PER-LHR would have to start as a domestic service to get the equipment to PER and then transfer to int and with the current terminal setup in PER it will cost time and money

This is why nothing before the 2020s is likely to happen, unless QF is having behind the scenes talks with Immigration, Customs and Quarantine to introduce facilities at T3/4. I can't imagine the latter would wish to do that for just a short period unless QF was prepared to pay.
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SYDSpotter
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting Ryanair01 (Reply 56):
Currently, serving LHR double daily (daily Sydney/ daily Melbourne) via Dubai takes a whooping 6 airframes. Sydney and Melbourne are the key markets, but in reality it makes no difference to people in those cities if their one stop is in Dubai or Perth (provided the airport experience is sorted out).So, if QF cancelled the current schedule, started non stop flights from Perth to London, they could simply route London bound passengers from Sydney and Melbourne to Perth on their existing transcon flights (which already operate as a premium service) and save themselves 2 wide body airframes.

Then you may as well cancel the existing arrangement with EK then, because one of the main purposes of the arrangement was to recapture some of the Europe bound traffic that other carriers from other hub carriers (EK, EY, SQ, CX et al). Some of the traffic that QF carries via DXB aren't flying to LHR, they're flying to other parts of Europe and also Africa.
Routing everyone onto PER-LHR means you've effectively gone back to the old days of doing your stops via SIN/HKG. And routing via PER means you're the longest segment you're operating is a 18hr ULH segment which is no where near as efficient as a 13-14 hr segment if you were to operate via SIN/HKG/DXB.

You'd also lose quite a bit of capacity going from 2x daily A380 to 2x daily 789.
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:31 am

Ive got a theory. The QF/EK tie-up is probably unergoing a bit of negotiation at the moment, with recent media attention on the possibility that it could expand with QF flying more into Europe. Perhaps bringing PER-LHR routings up is a ploy by AJ to remind EK that QF does have (quite limited) options and if things don't go as much its way as it wants, QF might start such a route to capture that premium traffic. I personally don't think this is going to happen in a year of Sundays with the current aircraft on offer, but it might be just the reminder to EK in a contract renegotiation to not want to have it all their own way.
 
Jetstar315
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:35 am

In reply to BoeingVista (first post above) - you are surmising 9 abreast in Economy. What if it was 6 abreast, all business class a bit like SQ used to do SIN-JFK with the A345? My answer to that would be 'yes please'.

Don't forget, QF have already done the studies for their proposed premium Red Q which they wanted to set up in Asia a few years ago. I wouldn't mind betting some of that research will become evident on the B787-9 if they were to operate ultra long haul PER-LHR with this type.
 
SYDSpotter
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:47 am

Quoting Jetstar315 (Reply 63):
In reply to BoeingVista (first post above) - you are surmising 9 abreast in Economy. What if it was 6 abreast, all business class a bit like SQ used to do SIN-JFK with the A345? My answer to that would be 'yes please'.

That will only work if your entire premium cabin is filled with PER traffic only and I don't think QF would capture enough of the PER business/premium market to fill a business only configured 787-9. For premium travellers flying from/to MEL/SYD/BNE, flying via PER means a 1 stop flight, which is no different to the status quo being offered by everyone else flying the Kangaroo route today.
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ikramerica
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):
I assume some PAX are gonna connect from SYD, MEL, AKL, and so on, but what would be the difference between connecting at PER and at DXB?

Is there any benefit to a UK or OZ citizen not to transit a third nation?
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WearyDrover
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):
Is there any benefit to a UK or OZ citizen not to transit a third nation?

Not really, apart from possible time saving and less chance of missed connections, bags going astray, etc.

UK and Australian citizens don't require visas when transferring in DXB and, should they wish to book a stopover, are eligible for visas on arrival.
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vhqpa
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:16 am

I'm sceptical this will happen. At 7800 nmi it will be the longest flight in the world. I can't see the 787-9 lifting an economical payload on that sort of distance. I know WA has a large UK expat community but surely the yields aren't there to justify a ULH.
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Jetstar315
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:11 am

I think a PER-LHR service would capture good numbers with connections from AKL/WLG/CHC/MEL/SYD/BNE and the chance to fly on the B787-9 would also be a drawcard. What's the difference between transiting PER or transiting DXB??
I think you'd be surprised at the number of NZ originating pax who would be more than happy to fly QF!!
 
AngMoh
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:49 am

Quoting Ryanair01 (Reply 56):
In fact 4x 789s would replace 6x A380s. Assuming you can maintain premium cabin revenue and volumes (14 First Seats and 64 Business Seats), which begins to counter balance the range/payload restrictions, then the economics begin to look pretty favourable.
Quoting Jetstar315 (Reply 68):
I think a PER-LHR service would capture good numbers with connections from AKL/WLG/CHC/MEL/SYD/BNE and the chance to fly on the B787-9 would also be a drawcard. What's the difference between transiting PER or transiting DXB??

EK would love this. First QF would drop capacity like crazy (effectively half it) and if you come from MEL, BNE or SYD, you have this huge detour over Perth where there is a mediocre transit compared with DXB. And it is all the way A380 to most destinations on EK. On top of that, if you need to go LHR fine, but anything else you are better of DXB.A simple example, I just dropped a colleague off to go back to the UK. He actually works in the City of London, but he is flying back to Birmingham on EK as that is a much better way to go home.

I don't understand this PER-LHR obsession when QF has to fix their Asian network first. The 787s are better (and more profitable) for that.
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S75752
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:33 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
Non stop from 2017 in a 787-9, 18 hours in 9 across 787 no thanks.

No way in hell would they use a 9-across high density config, it simply wouldn't have the range capability for that. I'd expect some sort of lower density J and Y+ configuration.
 
SYDSpotter
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:00 am

Quoting Jetstar315 (Reply 68):
What's the difference between transiting PER or transiting DXB??

Hmm, how about DXB offers a multitude of connecting opportunities that PER doesn't.

If you want to fly just to LHR, then yeah there's no difference, but QF's tie-up with EK suggests that QF is after a slightly bigger market than just LHR !
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CXfirst
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:00 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):
Is there any benefit to a UK or OZ citizen not to transit a third nation?

Really, the only advantage is that for part of the Australian population there is one less stop. That is all PER resident, and residents that needed to take a domestic flight to MEL/SYD before, but able to fly non-stop to PER (ie. AYQ, DRW, WA residents, etc.)

Questions is, is it any true disadvantage for SYD/MEL/BNE/ADL residents to connect at PER rather than DXB or SIN, etc.

-CXfirst
 
SYDSpotter
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RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:25 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 72):
Questions is, is it any true disadvantage for SYD/MEL/BNE/ADL residents to connect at PER rather than DXB or SIN, etc.

If you're only going to LHR, probably not. The only disadvantage is that those sitting in economy have a very long 18 PER-LHR sector (as opposed to having 2 more evenly spread out sectors transiting DXB/SIN/HKG etc). But if you want to go anywhere but LHR, then going via PER is now a 2 stop proposition rather than 1.

If PER-LHR goes ahead, the local PER traffic needs to make it work alone. If you're relying on SYD/MEL/BNE/ADL passengers to make it work (i.e. dropping off the SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR services), then really you've put all your eggs in the LHR market as the DXB service means QF at least carries part of the European traffic for part of the way (before offloading onto EK's network). QF dropping SIN/HKG/BKK as transit points and getting into bed with EK suggests that QF isn't going to be LHR centric.
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baw716
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:49 am

The only way a 787-9 makes it to/from Australia (and especially FROM) is to go low density in Economy. This means 8 across seating a la the original 788 that ANA took before they got into the 9 across game as well.

The aircraft would have to be weight restricted to make it and this would be a logical approach for QF if they intended to go really all out and try to make a LHR-PER viable year around. I would suspect that people who want to do this, especially business flyers would be attracted to the smaller terminal at PER; however, QF would need to put an international quality service on PER-SYD or just run the plane with one stop all the way down. That could be an interesting proposition for QF if they had the fortitude to take that risk. Aussies don't strike me as people who back away from anything.

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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:07 am

They can try to fly this, but i cant see them actually being able to make money. It would need to be super super premium heavy
 
coolian2
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:10 am

Won't happen. The 787s are to cut Asia and Pacific capacity. They won't waste it on London
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777Jet
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 66):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):Is there any benefit to a UK or OZ citizen not to transit a third nation?

Not really, apart from possible time saving and less chance of missed connections, bags going astray, etc.

Add to that not having to deal with the law of the transit country.
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goodo
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:58 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 29):
I mean seriously, just how many 789s would such a route tie up to operate daily? 14? QF would have a lot more profitable places to deploy 14 brand new 789s on.

You do realise they don't need a different plane to operate the flight each day of the week right? Once a flight returns to PER it can turn around and head back to LHR. Just like you're allowed to wear your Wednesday socks on Monday if you so wish (as long as they've been washed   ) . With an 18 hour flight it would need 4 airframes.
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting goodo (Reply 78):
With an 18 hour flight it would need 4 airframes.

This assumes you have minimal ground time at LHR though. At the moment, both the SYD/MEL flights have significant downtime (5-6 hours) at LHR. So sure you could do it with 4 frames, but at the risk you have unfavourable arrival/departure times in order to squeeze 4 frames into that window.

[Edited 2015-10-11 02:42:45]
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qf002
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:07 am

Quoting goodo (Reply 78):
With an 18 hour flight it would need 4 airframes.
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 79):
So sure you could do it with 4 frames, but at the risk you have unfavourable arrival/departure times in order to squeeze 4 frames into that window.

Not sure what is throwing you all off, but a 17-18 hour flight could easily be done daily with just two frames, assuming 2-3 hours of downtime at both PER and LHR.

I doubt that they would go with such tight turns, but they could do both PER-LHR and a daily PER-AKL or PER-SIN with three aircraft (though as I've said in the other thread, I doubt this is something that will happen anyway so it's all moot as far as I'm concerned!).
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 80):
Not sure what is throwing you all off, but a 17-18 hour flight could easily be done daily with just two frames, assuming 2-3 hours of downtime at both PER and LHR.

The 4 frames is in relation to a 2x daily not single daily.
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qf002
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 81):
The 4 frames is in relation to a 2x daily not single daily.
aryonoco and goodo both appear to be talking about a single daily PER-LHR?  
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:22 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 82):
aryonoco and goodo both appear to be talking about a single daily PER-LHR?

I can't speak for them, but I think the talk of a 2x daily started from reply 56 (it can sometimes be hard to pick up the discussion in a long thread).
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goodo
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:42 am

My mistake. 2 frames
 
aryonoco
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:13 am

Quoting goodo (Reply 78):
You do realise they don't need a different plane to operate the flight each day of the week right?

Turns my maths skills aren't quite that strong after I've had a couple of glasses of wine. I should probably refrain from posting here at that point!  

Yes you are right, theoretically you only need 2 frames to do this route 7x weekly, though you would probably need a bit more than that to take maintenance etc into account. Either way, right now, with the number of 787s that QF has ordered, there is absolutely no way that they will dedicate 2+ frames for such a marginal route. Maybe we should come back and talk about this when QF has ordered another 20+ 787s.
 
a320fan
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:10 pm

DRW? Other than a poor connection point for PER orginating PAX, it offers the shortest distance for a direct LHR-Australia leg and has the benefit of been on the GC path between SYD and London. DRW to MEL, SYD and BNE is a shorter distance than PER.

I've made a table comparing a range of different connection options from LHR to SYD


Via Dubai 9473 nm
EGLL-OMDB 2972 nm
OMDB-YSSY 6500 nm

Via Singapore 9274 nm
EGLL-WSSS 5878 nm
WSSS-YSSY 3396 nm

Via Perth 9602 nm
EGLL-YPPH 7829 nm
YPPH-YSSY 1773 nm

Via Darwin 9191 nm
EGLL-YPDN 7490 nm
YPDN-YSSY 1701 nm

Direct
EGLL-YSSY 9188 nm
EGLL-YMML 9127 nm

Via Hong Kong 9189 nm
EGLL-VHHH 5209 nm
VHHH-YSSY 3980 nm

http://i.imgur.com/oILu6tG.gif

This shows Hong Kong as the most direct stopover point with Darwin the most direct in Australia. Both practically sit along the GC path. Both would be affected by poor airspace management in China in reality. Give me the choice to break up my journey in DRW or HGK i'll choose HGK.

Perth is the most indirect stopover point, I would choose all the others over Perth. DRW is shorter than both SIN and DXB.

I think this shows direct LHR-Australia flights are completely unfeasible. I will eat my left foot if QF introduces these, and I think it was a foolish and pointless thing for Joyce to make a statement on.
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BoeingVista
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting a320fan (Reply 86):
I think this shows direct LHR-Australia flights are completely unfeasible. I will eat my left foot if QF introduces these, and I think it was a foolish and pointless thing for Joyce to make a statement on.

Also nobody has mentioned the completely stupid diversion airport situation of PER, it would probably be ADL, you are going to end up tanking an extra couple of hours fuel flying LHR-PER.
BV
 
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qf789
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 87):
Also nobody has mentioned the completely stupid diversion airport situation of PER, it would probably be ADL, you are going to end up tanking an extra couple of hours fuel flying LHR-PER.

There is also LEA to the north which can be used for diversion if needed. The only time PER bound flights have been diverted is normally due to fog which normally affects flights just before sunrise. Taking into account that both the current QF flights would stay at roughly the same times, the 2 slot pairs that QF have leased to BA are early morning arrivals into LON and late evening departures. Therefore a LON-PER would depart in late evening and would arrive in PER the following day in the late evening say around 2200.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting a320fan (Reply 86):
I've made a table comparing a range of different connection options from LHR to SYD

a320fan, do us all a favor and restate your chart in hours.mins. for each sector or in ESAD for each sector. Sector distances west bound are quite different than sector distances eastbound in terms of time.  
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 88):
There is also LEA to the north which can be used for diversion if needed. The only time PER bound flights have been diverted is normally due to fog which normally affects flights just before sunrise.

It has been known to be closed by thunderstorms mid morning / early afternoon, flew over the wheatbelt for an hour on a SYD-PER flight waiting for it to reopen, spoke to captain after landing he said we were 5 minutes from diverting to ADL.

LEA is still 1091 KM away so 1.5 hours flying time.

[Edited 2015-10-11 07:11:57]
BV
 
Ruscoe
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):
Is there any benefit to a UK or OZ citizen not to transit a third nation?

It's not so much the third nation, it is the third airport.

In my own case I love flying but hate airport procedures (while fully accepting they are necessary), and will happily be in the air for a few extra hours to avoid going through another airport.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 59):
It will require an airline who operates the A350 or next gen 777 for both comfort and specification.

If the range and economics of the 789 are questionable, then the 359 will be no better. Airbus are thinking of yet another MTOW increase of 5T for the 359, (why this is necessary would be another interesting thread), at which point any further weight increases require triple bogie etc, but although it makes the aircraft more capable it does not make it more efficient.
In any case QF have already decided to take 789's, so it is a bit of a theoretical consideration.
I agree a 778X may be a more attractive proposition, and I can imagine them in QF service, but as far as I am aware, they are not currently part of the plan.

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BoeingVista
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 91):
If the range and economics of the 789 are questionable, then the 359 will be no better. Airbus are thinking of yet another MTOW increase of 5T for the 359, (why this is necessary would be another interesting thread), at which point any further weight increases require triple bogie etc, but although it makes the aircraft more capable it does not make it more efficient.
In any case QF have already decided to take 789's, so it is a bit of a theoretical consideration.
I agree a 778X may be a more attractive proposition, and I can imagine them in QF service, but as far as I am aware, they are not currently part of the plan.

Wow, 90 posts before you start with the A v B A350 knocking can you not give it a rest on any thread you post to?
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sunrisevalley
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:04 pm

If QF was to create a premium ULH fleet within their 789 fleet of 16F,50J,32Y+ and 152Y at 8 abreast in Y+ and Y at a point in time when the 789 MEW is 2t less than at EIS and SFC is 5% less than EIS they would comfortably carry a 90% passenger LF just over 18-hrs. The same airplane would work on PER-LHR, DFW-MEL and LAX-PER which are close to the same fight time most days.
On the matter of costs . Based on fuel at $480 mt the per occupied seat cost for ~18hrs block time is $198.00 For the same load for a 15hr flight is $160.00 and for 13hrs is about $135. In my view the increase in one of the major cost components for the distance/time flown is not significant.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
Non stop from 2017 in a 787-9, 18 hours in 9 across 787 no thanks.

To match the payload that the sector time will allow they don't need 9 across. 8 will work just fine and Y could be at 32" pitch . They could offer their customers A380 space and their highest catering standard within the payload constraint.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 94):
To match the payload that the sector time will allow they don't need 9 across. 8 will work just fine and Y could be at 32" pitch . They could offer their customers A380 space and their highest catering standard within the payload constraint.

The basic problem is thus:-

You have the competing requirements of needing a high PAX count for revenue, low PAX count for weight and range. You may be able to square this circle by generating more revenue per passenger by charging more for a premium service but most people buy tickets based on price.
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qf002
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 93):
16F,50J,32Y+ and 152Y

You would never fit that many seats on a 789 -- for comparison, JL's very premium 77Ws are 8F/49J/40W/147Y. Something similar to JL's 44J/35W/116Y 789s would be more realistic IMO.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 96):
You would never fit that many seats on a 789 --

The Boeing typical 3-class layout is 16F 50J and 214 Y . I have left the F and J alone and split the 24 rows of Y into 4 Y+ = 32 seats and 19 Y = 152 seats for a total of 250. . ..
Because the operation is going to be payload limited they could reduce the seat count by about 20- seats. anyway all FWIW..
 
NAV30
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 87):
Also nobody has mentioned the completely stupid diversion airport situation of PER

Surely a good proportion of the passengers travelling UK/AUS would actually be Perth residents? On any such UK/AUS service I don't see any way in which Perth residents would put up with being flown miles into the boondocks, and then having to fly back?
 
tortugamon
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RE: RUMOUR: QF To Fly LON-PER Non Stop From 2017

Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:12 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 97):
The Boeing typical 3-class layout is 16F 50J and 214 Y . I have left the F and J alone and split the 24 rows of Y into 4 Y+ = 32 seats and 19 Y = 152 seats for a total of 250. . ..

48J 88Y+ 116Y = 252 in their 9-abreast premium heavy 787-9s.

If we increase ~30" Y to ~33/34" Y+ and switch to 8 abreast we would lose ~11% of Y for pitch and for losing one seat per row. So 96 in the new Y+ transitioned from Y. In normal Y+ we would lose one seat per row so ~77 plus 48 J would be 221 total. If you added F then we would be much closer to and probably below 200 seats.

tortugamon

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