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Boeing778X
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Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:47 pm

Haven't seen this discussed specifically yet.

Bombarider is trying to gather interest in their CSeries family of aircraft from North American airlines. Southwest, American Airlines Group and Air Canada are mentioned being the ones Bombardier is talking to.

Everyone but WN declined to comment.

"We have nothing in the works that would have our customers expecting to see anything but a Boeing bird when they walk up to a Southwest gate," said a Southwest spokesman

Additionally, talks between Airbus and Bombardier "ended abruptly" shortly after the release of this article.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...a-bombardier-idUSKCN0S32MK20151009



[Edited 2015-10-10 09:58:08]
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dc10lover
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:44 pm

I doubt United will look at the C Series.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 1):
I doubt United will look at the C Series.

They 100% will look at it. Whether they will order it is the question.
 
Freshside3
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 2):
They 100% will look at it. Whether they will order it is the question.

They've got their hands full with a lot of other equipment issues. Don't think any "look" would actually have any serious intentions.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 1):
I doubt United will look at the C Series.

This would be the second time.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):
Bombarider is trying to gather interest in their CSeries family of aircraft from North American airlines.

I'm sure they've been trying to do that since the program was launched.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:15 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
I'm sure they've been trying to do that since the program was launched.

Yup... and it has been discussed on A.net. Kinda funny that some people might think that BBD hasn't been flogging the CSeries to everyone!  
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tortugamon
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:19 am

Since when is an OEM offering a jet to an airline news? I think BBD is trying to control the message in the media away from the talk last week of them being in trouble and looking for a savior to something more positive.

Airlines do not like risk - US based legacy carriers despise risk. The CSeries is a serious threat to be canceled. Following this logic I don't see Legacy US airlines taking the CSeries seriously until they are more confident in its longevity.

tortugamon
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7):
The CSeries is a serious threat to be canceled.

The CSeries isn't going anywhere.

The plane is a few months away from certification, tests are over 85% complete and hopefully Transport Canada will give the green light before year's end. Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in. That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems, because right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter. Delivery slots until 2018 are full.

If push comes to shove, Quebec's government has said it is open to providing Bombardier with financial aid to preserve jobs and the company's headquarters in Montreal.

Depending on the federal election's outcome, the federal government might also invest.

I'm not too worried about BBD.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
The plane is a few months away from certification, tests are over 85% complete and hopefully Transport Canada will give the green light before year's end. Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in. That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems, because right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter. Delivery slots until 2018 are full.

You're suggesting the aircraft will be cash flow positive on aircraft sold? That would be unusual for the first few hundred.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
The CSeries isn't going anywhere.

"Since Bombardier lacks the resources to make the CSeries a commercial success on its own, and since we can’t foresee a partner, Teal Group expects the program to be cancelled."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/richarda...us-this-does-not-look-good-at-all/

Anyway, my point was that there is a threat and if there is a threat then new airline purchases, espcially US domestic purchases are probably going to be very low margin or contractually very small deposits - neither that will help the program and likewise something that I don't think will happen in the near term until the risk has been resolved.

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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:29 am

At this point, it would be crazy to cancel the project. The aircraft is nearly ready to be certified. Once over that hurdle, the program starts earning money back. Billions in the hole, sure, but each delivery is millions less in the hole.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:43 am

Quoting adamblang (Reply 10):
At this point, it would be crazy to cancel the project. The aircraft is nearly ready to be certified. Once over that hurdle, the program starts earning money back. Billions in the hole, sure, but each delivery is millions less in the hole.

Once it is certified and once it starts delivering aircraft at a high enough rate such that their costs and less than their revenue, then the program starts earning money back.

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planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in

First delivery is not slated until mid 2016, so no money flowing for another 8-10 months.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems

It will be a bit like putting a bandaid on a larger wound because of the continued cash burn over the next 8 to 10 months, low rate initial production, and debt that is coming due.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Delivery slots until 2018 are full.

Does that include Republic's 40 CSeries (or the other "firm" orders)?  
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rbavfan
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:38 am

Republic it seems has to take them or pay out a lot of money. They cannot afford the pouts either, but at lease they can lease out the aircraft to get a return on investment. That a better deal for Republic than canceling and paying the fee's.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
The CSeries isn't going anywhere.

That remains to be seen. People more in-the-know than either of us seem to be concerned.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
The plane is a few months away from certification, tests are over 85% complete and hopefully Transport Canada will give the green light before year's end.

While certainly further along, there are parallels to the FD728 story that leave me a bit unimpressed with that status.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter

Holy garbonzo beans!

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Delivery slots until 2018 are full.

I think it takes some serious fanboyism - with all due respect - to confidently call the delivery line full at any stage. There are too many question marks in their order book.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
If push comes to shove, Quebec's government has said it is open to providing Bombardier with financial aid to preserve jobs and the company's headquarters in Montreal.

Preserve Bombardier, or preserve the CSeries? I think it might very well end up being the company as a whole and not necessarily a safety net for the CSeries.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 12):
Does that include Republic's 40 CSeries (or the other "firm" orders)?

I had really hoped that someone would pick this order up from Republic (as I'm sure they were hoping as well) but obviously nobody needs these slots when they can just wait out the looming crisis. Early on, I figured that the good delivery positions and likely great pricing made this order a potential asset to Republic. Sadly, it's become anything but.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 13):

Republic it seems has to take them or pay out a lot of money.

I'm not clear that that's the case. With the delays in the program I'd be surprised if Republic was on the hook at all. If anything, they are simply waiting it out until the last possible moment to cancel what they had hoped would be a lucrative asset. I assume that BBD is almost pleading with Republic to wait it out just to avoid the terrible PR that a cancellation would bring.

If they really are on the hook, they would convert these to other BBD products before taking orphaned CSeries jets, I'd imagine. So much has changed since they placed the order that it's relevance to them as a company is nil.

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marktci
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:06 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
You're suggesting the aircraft will be cash flow positive on aircraft sold? That would be unusual for the first few hundred.

I'm pretty sure the plane will be cash flow positive from any units sold from this point on (i.e., the money taken in from the sale will be more than the labour and materials spent to make the plane). It may not be profitable (cash in will likely not be greater than total costs including development costs) but that's profit, not cash flow.
 
N628AU
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:37 am

Both AA and UA need a 100 seat mainline jet to compete with the 717 DL has locked up, especially planning for fuel prices and system growth 5-10 years down the road. 70 seaters will be the equivalent of 50 seaters today. The question becomes EMB190/195 or C Series. It would seem the C Series is optimized for growth. The 73G and A319 are too heavy and once fuel spikes again will be only useful for speciality ops like hot/high and short runway ops where the takeoff performance is necessary as the 757s go away.

BBD has an issue in that no one wants an orphan fleet. They have seen Lockheed, Fokker, and Dornier go belly up in the past 30 years. If no one else orders it, you have a repeat of the others. Also they have have large EMB 170/175 fleets so there is a built in parts and supply chain network. Big EMB advantage. DL can only get away with it with the MD90 and 717 because they have basically cornered the market, there is a lot of DC9/MD80 series parts commonality, and unlike the others Boeing still has some level of support for the former McD programs.

IMO BBD is going to have to basically give away a large order at fire sale prices just to bring scale to the market.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting N628AU (Reply 16):

Where does UA deploy the Cseries in it's network if they buy? Is this a good hub-spoke aircraft or one for long-thin routes that UA has or hasn't opened already?
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:08 am

Quoting N628AU (Reply 16):
The 73G and A319 are too heavy and once fuel spikes again

Well, there's one big problem: Until fuel spikes, airlines will be loath to risk capital on an aircraft without an immediate return on investment. Much easier to exercise a few options for the A or B variant or - more trendy - pick up the aforementioned narrowbodies on the secondhand market.

Trust me, I want to see the CSeries succeed, and I'm bullish on it technically. They are just in the coffin corner with the program right now, where they can't afford to spend more, but need to spend more for it to succeed long term.

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bluefltspecial
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:13 am

There are a few ways to look at this.

Republic has its hands full at the moment, just trying to get pilots into the door to work their E70/E145 program. That being said, with an aircraft due in 8-10 months they would need to start planning out their operations of the aircraft so THEY can be certified when the aircraft comes on property, and they haven’t started anything for pilot ops nor in-flight service ops. Nada. The only thing I can really see at this point is Repubs selling or leasing their slots, but to whom? My guess will actually be to Swiss/LH – they were the other “large/launch” operator IIRC. Delta is already suing them for breach of contract and if that path follows the previous adventure as with DL/Mesa in 2009, S5 will lose the Delta contract, and soon. They have their hands too full to bring on a larger aircraft that they can’t even operate for one of their current biz partners, as it violates scope.

There was a recent internal memo at Delta however, mentioning that UA was looking for a small “mainline” jet. This might be it for United.

That being said, AA – IMO – shot itself in the foot – twice – so perhaps “feet” is the correct term. The first time in ridding itself with a 100+ seat jet: the F100, and then repeating that with the B717s it got from TWA (which sadly only one got a Hybrid AA/TWA livery). While they have the A319, it’s a heavy bird with a similar seating, so it’s not competitive anymore, with as mentioned earlier – special routes for hot/high conditions.

While Delta does have the B717s – it’s now said publically and internally that they want to remove/reduce connection carriers down to only a handful of operations/operators. They also have stated that they don’t want any “paper airplanes” so with this being completed, if it meets its targets for fuel burn and operational need it could be something worthwhile. That being said, and this is me just thinking out loud - if Delta was smart, which they have shown somewhat in the past, if they lockup this +100 seat jet, it will give them a solid advantage over both UA and AA in being able to go into smaller markets with larger aircraft and take away market-share.

I say often to others in the industry, the only constant in the commercial aviation industry, is change. I am rather looking forward to seeing how all this plays out, it probably will surprise us all.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:18 am

Quoting bluefltspecial (Reply 19):
The only thing I can really see at this point is Repubs selling or leasing their slots, but to whom?

I'm just not sure that they have any value at this point. With the program delayed, uncertainty growing, fuel prices stabilized at fairly low levels, virtually no regional able to operate the CS300 for a major, and the likelihood of BBD preferring to place any new CSeries orders themselves rather than see the Republic birds get pawned off, I just don't see how Republic can leverage this into anything more than an unfortunate footnote in the history books.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be wrong, though.

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baw716
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:52 am

Everyone remember, Republic Airways Holdings has about 40 or so CS300s on order. Those slots could be easily sold to their mainline partners. RAH will not be able to use the planes due to the scope clauses with their mainline partners, but they could unload the planes (assuming the pilots don't object to it) and solve a problem they've had for awhile, while solving a different problem for one of their mainline partners.

Bombardier will be selling them cheap.

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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting seat1a (Reply 17):

Quoting N628AU (Reply 16):

Where does UA deploy the Cseries in it's network if they buy? Is this a good hub-spoke aircraft or one for long-thin routes that UA has or hasn't opened already?

Long and thin routes from the west coast for one. Things like LAX-CMH and LAX-PIT could come back with such an airplane.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 21):
Bombardier will be selling them cheap.

That's the problem, apparently BBD hasn't been selling the C-Series for cheap, or cheap enough to compete with the heavy discounts that A and B can throw around due to their economies of scale.
 
xdlx
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 21):

I am coming from left field.......... Cubana orders the CS300! To replace russian junk.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 23):
That's the problem, apparently BBD hasn't been selling the C-Series for cheap, or cheap enough to compete with the heavy discounts that A and B can throw around due to their economies of scale.

That is correct. Airbus has not only been undercutting CS300 pricing but has been doing it with the A320.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting bluefltspecial (Reply 19):
While Delta does have the B717s – it’s now said publically and internally that they want to remove/reduce connection carriers down to only a handful of operations/operators. They also have stated that they don’t want any “paper airplanes” so with this being completed, if it meets its targets for fuel burn and operational need it could be something worthwhile. That being said, and this is me just thinking out loud - if Delta was smart, which they have shown somewhat in the past, if they lockup this +100 seat jet, it will give them a solid advantage over both UA and AA in being able to go into smaller markets with larger aircraft and take away market-share.

At one point DL had expressed some interest in the C series but IMHO the B717 has met that need.

It is unfortunate that there have been so many project delays. I am afraid they have missed their North American market.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 21):
Everyone remember, Republic Airways Holdings has about 40 or so CS300s on order. Those slots could be easily sold to their mainline partners.

What makes you think Republic would be succesful where BBD themselves have not?
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 21):

Everyone remember, Republic Airways Holdings has about 40 or so CS300s on order

Did you not see the post immediately before yours? Just curious, because we've been discussing these orders/slots in this very thread.

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tortugamon
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting marktci (Reply 15):
I'm pretty sure the plane will be cash flow positive from any units sold from this point on (i.e., the money taken in from the sale will be more than the labour and materials spent to make the plane).

Indeed positive cash flow can come before unit profitability.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 23):
That's the problem, apparently BBD hasn't been selling the C-Series for cheap, or cheap enough to compete with the heavy discounts that A and B can throw around due to their economies of scale.

I would not be surprised if it costs less to lease an A320 than it does a hypothetical CSeries today.

Its so dang hard to break into this business. I really hope BBD can stick with it.

tortugamon
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):
Its so dang hard to break into this business. I really hope BBD can stick with it.

I think they will.

At the end of the day, no one is going to buy A319s and 737-7s, and as good as the E175 is with regional operators, it's not going to be a 100 seater.

The space between the E175 and A320/738 is significant, and aircraft like the E190 E2, CS300 and MRJ90 can become increasingly popular with American carriers. Bombardier have their hands full, but I think if they stick to it, it'll pay off.
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sebring
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:15 pm

Air Canada has passed on the Series a couple of times now, but it might be too tempting to pass again. AC is going to add more CRJ-705s to replace CRJ-200s at Jazz/Chorus. Those will be either be new builds or converted, used 900s, with BBD handling the conversion. Chorus is buying an additional 15-odd Q-400s. The intention to add these aircraft was announced two weeks ago, but not the sourcing thereof. The potential therefore exists for a package deal which buries a CS-300 discount to replace the remaining E-90s. It also wouldn't surprise me if the party that wins next week's Canadian election will find a quiet way to express its gratitude if AC buys, say, 20 CS300s, rather than have the political headache of subsidizing the aircraft maker.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 30):
At the end of the day, no one is going to buy A319s and 737-7s, and as good as the E175 is with regional operators, it's not going to be a 100 seater.

When Airbus (for example) will sell you an A320 at a price in the ballpark of the CS300, and you already have the Airbus in your fleet, what is the motivation to introduce an all-new fleet type when the revenue possibilities with the Airbus are much greater and cost to introduce is virtually nonexistent?

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 30):
The space between the E175 and A320/738 is significant, and aircraft like the E190 E2, CS300 and MRJ90 can become increasingly popular with American carriers. Bombardier have their hands full, but I think if they stick to it, it'll pay off.

For years, Continental made do with a gap between the ERJ145 and the 737-500. Today most carriers seem to be gravitating to near-80 seaters, or even near 90-seaters, so while their smallest narrowbody has grown in size, so has their largest regional jet. Is it really critical to have something between an 86-seater and a 124-seater? For some, the answer will be "Yes". For many, the answer may be "No".

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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting sebring (Reply 31):
It also wouldn't surprise me if the party that wins next week's Canadian election will find a quiet way to express its gratitude if AC buys, say, 20 CS300s, rather than have the political headache of subsidizing the aircraft maker.

I wonder if there would be political pressure from a federal level to allow jets at YTZ inorder to ensure that the sale to Porter goes through?
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Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:58 am

I think there are a number of things we can conclude:

- Billy Bishop will soon be allowed to operate jets (under political pressure).
- Air Canada will soon order some CSeries (under political pressure).
- The local govt will support Montreal.
- The local govt will support Shorts (Belfast).

- The CSeries is financially uncompetitive next to discounted A320/B737-8's.
- The CSeries could be available much sooner than the above (order slots).
- Suppressed fuel prices have hurt badly.



There are a number of things we can postulate:
- The national govts. *may* follow suit in supporting BBD.
- If governments can row in behind the banks and carmakers, I don't see a big difference for an aircraft maker - Bombardier's problem is largely one of cashflow, enlarging the family to include a CS500 would likely result in a big program profit - which could then make money for the taxpayer (like the A320 for UK govt) - is that something the governments would turn down?
- Airlines may be reluctant to order based on reliability, if BBD get the aircraft hitting good dispatch rates with Swiss, this concern may ease.
- BBD need to reassure airlines they will exist in 20 years, otherwise no-one will order the thing.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in. That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems, because right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter. Delivery slots until 2018 are full.

While some cash will be flowing in, even more will be going out. Initial production and ramp-up is massively expensive. According to Leeham, between 400 & 500% more expensive than stabilised serial production.

Quoting adamblang (Reply 10):
Once over that hurdle, the program starts earning money back. Billions in the hole, sure, but each delivery is millions less in the hole.

It is? Ask Boeing how that's worked out so far on the 787. They've already delivered as many 787s as BBD has CSeries orders. Also, see above.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27):
What makes you think Republic would be succesful where BBD themselves have not?

What makes anyone think Republic could even do that? BBD would be insane if they didn't have specific clauses in their sales contracts to stop this from happening.
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planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29):
I would not be surprised if it costs less to lease an A320 than it does a hypothetical CSeries today.

The A320 lease is cheaper.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 33):
I wonder if there would be political pressure from a federal level to allow jets at YTZ inorder to ensure that the sale to Porter goes through?

There already is "political pressure". The body in control of the harbour (which controls the airport) is made up of federal government appointees.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34):
I think there are a number of things we can conclude:

- Billy Bishop will soon be allowed to operate jets (under political pressure).
- Air Canada will soon order some CSeries (under political pressure).
- The local govt will support Montreal.
- The local govt will support Shorts (Belfast).

- The CSeries is financially uncompetitive next to discounted A320/B737-8's.
- The CSeries could be available much sooner than the above (order slots).
- Suppressed fuel prices have hurt badly.

Billy Bishop will not be soon allowed to operate jets. There is a tri-partite agreement that has to be changed. Second, the construction would take several years.

Air Canada is not a government entity anymore (hasn't been for a long time).

Local governments already support BBD... how much more is not enough.

The CSeries is not more available.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34):
- If governments can row in behind the banks and carmakers, I don't see a big difference for an aircraft maker - Bombardier's problem is largely one of cashflow, enlarging the family to include a CS500 would likely result in a big program profit - which could then make money for the taxpayer (like the A320 for UK govt) - is that something the governments would turn down?

There is a big difference. BBD is family controlled, the automakers weren't. The CS500 is a non-starter... it would be throwing good money down a hole.
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AirbusCanada
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
While some cash will be flowing in, even more will be going out. Initial production and ramp-up is massively expensive. According to Leeham, between 400 & 500% more expensive than stabilised serial production.

Initial ramp up may be expensive, but i think BBD has already spend the money (building & equipment) for that. Certification is also very very expensive, possibly has much as 1/3 of the program. (correct me if anyone else has better estimate).

With R&D, equipment, certification and Capital cost behind them, CSeries could be cash positive soon after delivery.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
It is? Ask Boeing how that's worked out so far on the 787. They've already delivered as many 787s as BBD has CSeries orders. Also, see above.

Boeing sold the 787 well below initial production cost, Bombardier did not(based on preliminary estimate).
 
Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 36):
Billy Bishop will not be soon allowed to operate jets. There is a tri-partite agreement that has to be changed. Second, the construction would take several years.

You really are a little doom-monger aren't you? You also didn't expend too much brain power before rolling out your "end is nigh" mantra either, lets consider the three groups in that agreement:

PortsToronto: Jets = more pax = more money (and PortsToronto is part of national govt - who def. aren't gonna screw over BBD)
City Council: Jets = helps BBD survive = helps get votes
TransCanada: No bone to pick in the fight.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 36):

The CSeries is not more available.

Yes it is - when can you get a delivery slot for an A319NEO? When can you get a delivery slot for a CS300? [assuming both get through cert. in projected timeframes.]

Quoting planemaker (Reply 36):

There is a big difference. BBD is family controlled, the automakers weren't.

I don't know if that would be an issue, indeed, it may be a plus as the family would be keen for long term stability whereas markets seek short term gain. The banks and automakers were not saved to protect the shareholders.

The family however, is an issue for private investment; who want a greater degree of control than the family is willing to divest. Hence the reluctance on the part of many to invest.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 36):

The CS500 is a non-starter... it would be throwing good money down a hole.

Your opinion. One I strongly disagree with. If BBD is to offer LCC and the like credible fleet options, it needs to have a family that covers further up the market than 150 seats IMO.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 37):
Boeing sold the 787 well below initial production cost, Bombardier did not(based on preliminary estimate).

Indeed - which is another reason why it has so few firm orders - they aren't willing to offer deep discounts for sales.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 21):
but they could unload the planes (assuming the pilots don't object to it)

Assuming the pilots don't object? The Republic pilots don't have any leverage.

There's nowhere for Republic to fly the CSeries. The purchase was a gamble in a couple of ways. That they could fly under their own name and make money, or that scope would be given away at the majors. The only thing going for the Republic pilots, is that the majors are hiring.
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 36):
The A320 lease is cheaper.

Just out of curiosity, how much is the (expected) lease rate for a 2016 C1S00 or CS300?
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:01 pm

I read somewhere UA + ALPA has rates for a lot of non flown types, inc CS300, but not for CS100 ? what's the rationale for that omission ?
 
727LOVER
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:07 pm

Hmmmmm...    see, I have talked about this before. Would this be an option?

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YVRLTN
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:44 pm

I have always thought the C would be a better fit at WS than AC (until the bizarre E90 decision). They have the MAX on order including the -7, but all the recent deliveries are 800's and 10 700's will have left the fleet by the end of this year. The Encore experiment seems to be successful so far, the relationship with BBD seems to be good and established as it seems the Q400 is working well. There are then the 600's and remaining 700's to be replaced, IMO there is room for something other than the MAX.

As per WS, the MAX order is interchangeable with any model, including the -9 not yet ordered.

http://www.westjet.com/pdf/ourFleet/fleetpdf_en.pdf

I could see the -7's replaced with the -9 and the C would fit in very nicely there IMO, also be good for leisure routes ex smaller stations like YWG, YYJ & YQR etc.

With the retirement of the E90 and the same reasoning as to the MAX, I do also think the C is a done deal at AC, as I said jokingly on the Jazz BBD order this month, buy 5 CS and get a DH4 & CRA for free. Would not be surprised some deal was done, but it will only be announced after the election and maybe with the Q3 results announced Nov 3.

As to other N American carriers, I think it would be a fine machine for AA, both they and US had a sizeable F100 fleet and they have inherited an aging 319 fleet. All the 738's coming in are for S80 replacement plus there are the same inherited aging 320's. Their relationship with BBD is also good via Eagle.

I wonder if Allegiant may be interested in some super discounted Republic slots?

Its not N America, but BBD really need to get into LATAM, another great possibility for them IMO.

[Edited 2015-10-12 12:47:51]
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 32):
737-500

Bring back the 500!!! Or Boeing needs to make the 600 lose weight and derate the engines real fast...
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 44):
I have always thought the C would be a better fit ...

I agree with almost everything you said.

There are a number of NA airlines who (i) have a gap in their fleets, (ii) have avoided committing to fleet renewal which closes that gap, and (iii) are expected to make decisions in the next year or so. And (coincidentally) within 6 months to a year, we will start to see actual operating results for the CSeries.

My opinion is that many airlines have the potential to use aircraft in that seat range, if an aircraft comes along which can do so profitably. They are waiting to see if that aircraft is the CSeries.


all of this at time when ... all at a time when the prospect of actual operating numbers is , and

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 44):
Would not be surprised some deal was done, but it will only be announced after the election and maybe with the Q3 results announced Nov 3.

This is the only disagreement - Since BBD is publically traded, management can't play games such as suppressing relevant news for extraneous reasons.

Also, they have everything to gain by announcing deals asap, to ease market concerns and negative spin currently circulating in the
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 42):
I read somewhere UA + ALPA has rates for a lot of non flown types, inc CS300, but not for CS100 ? what's the rationale for that omission ?

There is supposedly a side-letter that sets CS100 rates equal to the contracted E190 rates.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 40):
There's nowhere for Republic to fly the CSeries. The purchase was a gamble in a couple of ways. That they could fly under their own name and make money, or that scope would be given away at the majors. The only thing going for the Republic pilots, is that the majors are hiring.

Alaska would be a great candidate, but who knows.
 
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38):
You also didn't expend too much brain power before rolling out your "end is nigh" mantra either, lets consider the three groups in that agreement:

PortsToronto: Jets = more pax = more money (and PortsToronto is part of national govt - who def. aren't gonna screw over BBD)
City Council: Jets = helps BBD survive = helps get votes
TransCanada: No bone to pick in the fight.

You can't even quote me correctly. I did not say the "end is nigh" I said: "Billy Bishop will not be soon allowed to operate jets."

The Port has been behind the jets from day one... but they are all Conservative appointees who might be losing their jobs depending what happens next Monday. City council hasn't been behind the jets and that is why it hasn't been approved at Council... even though it was former Mayor Ford who is chummy with Deluce who tried to ram it through. And even if it were approved sometime next summer (the city report is only coming out in the spring), it would still take 2 years before the construction would be finished.

So, it is only common sense that jets won't be flying at Toronto Island soon!   
'

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38):
Yes it is - when can you get a delivery slot for an A319NEO? When can you get a delivery slot for a CS300? [assuming both get through cert. in projected timeframes.]

According to BBD, CSeries don't have a slot until 2018... if all goes smoothly (cough!). Airbus and Boeing hold reserve slots in their skyline. Plus, Airbus could be pumping out 60/month in 2018 and has far more flexibility to move and trade slots in addition to their reserves. If an airline wants an A319... they'll get it, and at a lower price.  
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38):
I don't know if that would be an issue, indeed, it may be a plus as the family would be keen for long term stability whereas markets seek short term gain.

It is no plus... the family GOT BBD into this mess... there isn't stability with the family running BBD.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38):
Your opinion. One I strongly disagree with. If BBD is to offer LCC and the like credible fleet options, it needs to have a family that covers further up the market than 150 seats IMO.

It isn't an opinion. BBD is no financial nor market position to develop another model.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 39):
Indeed - which is another reason why it has so few firm orders - they aren't willing to offer deep discounts for sales.

They are in a lose-lose situation. If they offer deep discounts they don't recover the cost of capital and if they don't they lose sales.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 41):
Just out of curiosity, how much is the (expected) lease rate for a 2016 C1S00 or CS300?

A CS300 is very high $200k or low $300k. In comparison, a 10-year-old A319 now leases for ~$150k. The CS300 can't compete with used aircraft, which will only get cheaper as NEOs enter service and displace CEOs

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 48):
Alaska would be a great candidate, but who knows.

Why would an airline introduce another type that is more expensive and that would mess up operations and route planning flexibility?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein

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