Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 1): I doubt United will look at the C Series. |
Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter): Bombarider is trying to gather interest in their CSeries family of aircraft from North American airlines. |
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5): I'm sure they've been trying to do that since the program was launched. |
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7): The CSeries is a serious threat to be canceled. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): The plane is a few months away from certification, tests are over 85% complete and hopefully Transport Canada will give the green light before year's end. Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in. That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems, because right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter. Delivery slots until 2018 are full. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): The CSeries isn't going anywhere. |
Quoting adamblang (Reply 10): At this point, it would be crazy to cancel the project. The aircraft is nearly ready to be certified. Once over that hurdle, the program starts earning money back. Billions in the hole, sure, but each delivery is millions less in the hole. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): Delivery slots until 2018 are full. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): The CSeries isn't going anywhere. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): The plane is a few months away from certification, tests are over 85% complete and hopefully Transport Canada will give the green light before year's end. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): Delivery slots until 2018 are full. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): If push comes to shove, Quebec's government has said it is open to providing Bombardier with financial aid to preserve jobs and the company's headquarters in Montreal. |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 12): Does that include Republic's 40 CSeries (or the other "firm" orders)? |
Quoting rbavfan (Reply 13): Republic it seems has to take them or pay out a lot of money. |
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9): You're suggesting the aircraft will be cash flow positive on aircraft sold? That would be unusual for the first few hundred. |
Quoting N628AU (Reply 16): The 73G and A319 are too heavy and once fuel spikes again |
Quoting bluefltspecial (Reply 19): The only thing I can really see at this point is Repubs selling or leasing their slots, but to whom? |
Quoting seat1a (Reply 17): Quoting N628AU (Reply 16): Where does UA deploy the Cseries in it's network if they buy? Is this a good hub-spoke aircraft or one for long-thin routes that UA has or hasn't opened already? |
Quoting aryonoco (Reply 23): That's the problem, apparently BBD hasn't been selling the C-Series for cheap, or cheap enough to compete with the heavy discounts that A and B can throw around due to their economies of scale. |
Quoting bluefltspecial (Reply 19): While Delta does have the B717s – it’s now said publically and internally that they want to remove/reduce connection carriers down to only a handful of operations/operators. They also have stated that they don’t want any “paper airplanes” so with this being completed, if it meets its targets for fuel burn and operational need it could be something worthwhile. That being said, and this is me just thinking out loud - if Delta was smart, which they have shown somewhat in the past, if they lockup this +100 seat jet, it will give them a solid advantage over both UA and AA in being able to go into smaller markets with larger aircraft and take away market-share. |
Quoting baw716 (Reply 21): Everyone remember, Republic Airways Holdings has about 40 or so CS300s on order. Those slots could be easily sold to their mainline partners. |
Quoting baw716 (Reply 21): Everyone remember, Republic Airways Holdings has about 40 or so CS300s on order |
Quoting marktci (Reply 15): I'm pretty sure the plane will be cash flow positive from any units sold from this point on (i.e., the money taken in from the sale will be more than the labour and materials spent to make the plane). |
Quoting aryonoco (Reply 23): That's the problem, apparently BBD hasn't been selling the C-Series for cheap, or cheap enough to compete with the heavy discounts that A and B can throw around due to their economies of scale. |
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29): Its so dang hard to break into this business. I really hope BBD can stick with it. |
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 30): At the end of the day, no one is going to buy A319s and 737-7s, and as good as the E175 is with regional operators, it's not going to be a 100 seater. |
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 30): The space between the E175 and A320/738 is significant, and aircraft like the E190 E2, CS300 and MRJ90 can become increasingly popular with American carriers. Bombardier have their hands full, but I think if they stick to it, it'll pay off. |
Quoting sebring (Reply 31): It also wouldn't surprise me if the party that wins next week's Canadian election will find a quiet way to express its gratitude if AC buys, say, 20 CS300s, rather than have the political headache of subsidizing the aircraft maker. |
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8): Once the deliveries start early next year, the money should start flowing in. That should help ease Bombardier's cash flow problems, because right now, they're bleeding $400 Million per quarter. Delivery slots until 2018 are full. |
Quoting adamblang (Reply 10): Once over that hurdle, the program starts earning money back. Billions in the hole, sure, but each delivery is millions less in the hole. |
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 27): What makes you think Republic would be succesful where BBD themselves have not? |
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 29): I would not be surprised if it costs less to lease an A320 than it does a hypothetical CSeries today. |
Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 33): I wonder if there would be political pressure from a federal level to allow jets at YTZ inorder to ensure that the sale to Porter goes through? |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34): I think there are a number of things we can conclude: - Billy Bishop will soon be allowed to operate jets (under political pressure). - Air Canada will soon order some CSeries (under political pressure). - The local govt will support Montreal. - The local govt will support Shorts (Belfast). - The CSeries is financially uncompetitive next to discounted A320/B737-8's. - The CSeries could be available much sooner than the above (order slots). - Suppressed fuel prices have hurt badly. |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 34): - If governments can row in behind the banks and carmakers, I don't see a big difference for an aircraft maker - Bombardier's problem is largely one of cashflow, enlarging the family to include a CS500 would likely result in a big program profit - which could then make money for the taxpayer (like the A320 for UK govt) - is that something the governments would turn down? |
Quoting scbriml (Reply 35): While some cash will be flowing in, even more will be going out. Initial production and ramp-up is massively expensive. According to Leeham, between 400 & 500% more expensive than stabilised serial production. |
Quoting scbriml (Reply 35): It is? Ask Boeing how that's worked out so far on the 787. They've already delivered as many 787s as BBD has CSeries orders. Also, see above. |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 36): Billy Bishop will not be soon allowed to operate jets. There is a tri-partite agreement that has to be changed. Second, the construction would take several years. |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 36): The CSeries is not more available. |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 36): There is a big difference. BBD is family controlled, the automakers weren't. |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 36): The CS500 is a non-starter... it would be throwing good money down a hole. |
Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 37): Boeing sold the 787 well below initial production cost, Bombardier did not(based on preliminary estimate). |
Quoting baw716 (Reply 21): but they could unload the planes (assuming the pilots don't object to it) |
Quoting planemaker (Reply 36): The A320 lease is cheaper. |
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 32): 737-500 |
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 44): I have always thought the C would be a better fit ... |
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 44): Would not be surprised some deal was done, but it will only be announced after the election and maybe with the Q3 results announced Nov 3. |
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 40): There's nowhere for Republic to fly the CSeries. The purchase was a gamble in a couple of ways. That they could fly under their own name and make money, or that scope would be given away at the majors. The only thing going for the Republic pilots, is that the majors are hiring. |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38): You also didn't expend too much brain power before rolling out your "end is nigh" mantra either, lets consider the three groups in that agreement: PortsToronto: Jets = more pax = more money (and PortsToronto is part of national govt - who def. aren't gonna screw over BBD) City Council: Jets = helps BBD survive = helps get votes TransCanada: No bone to pick in the fight. |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38): Yes it is - when can you get a delivery slot for an A319NEO? When can you get a delivery slot for a CS300? [assuming both get through cert. in projected timeframes.] |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38): I don't know if that would be an issue, indeed, it may be a plus as the family would be keen for long term stability whereas markets seek short term gain. |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 38): Your opinion. One I strongly disagree with. If BBD is to offer LCC and the like credible fleet options, it needs to have a family that covers further up the market than 150 seats IMO. |
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 39): Indeed - which is another reason why it has so few firm orders - they aren't willing to offer deep discounts for sales. |
Quoting PW100 (Reply 41): Just out of curiosity, how much is the (expected) lease rate for a 2016 C1S00 or CS300? |
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 48): Alaska would be a great candidate, but who knows. |