Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

bmacleod · Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:01 pm

I'm hoping Porter is turned down by the new government which means no jets for YTZ. The GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has too many jets in the skies already...

[Edited 2015-10-21 07:05:32]

Thomaas · Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):

There are far more impactful ways to save BBD then opening up YTZ. As I said before, YTZ is basically insignificant when it comes to the C-series/BBD, especially when the alternative is Porter can buy more Q400s (a BBD product!). Moving Porter's 12 frame order from provisional to firm is not suddenly going to reverse the C-series fortunes and save BBD.

Jets at YTZ would actually force AC's hand to order the CSeries to remain competitive with PD on YUL-YTZ.

YXXMIKE · Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 148):

And the unfortunate truth about the no campaign; they just don't like the place because it's messing with their local area zen.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 150):

What would you define as too many? Is there a threshold which has been met in the skies above Toronto which people no longer like?? I've always admitted that I'm a C-Series fanboy but that's a strange argument...

Amiga500 · Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 150):
I'm hoping Porter is turned down by the new government which means no jets for YTZ. The GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has too many jets in the skies already...

Whats your particular issue?

Aircraft noise?
Airport traffic noise?
Airport traffic presence?
Airport visual pollution?

Something else?

rbavfan · Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting seat1a (Reply 17):
Where does UA deploy the Cseries in it's network if they buy? Is this a good hub-spoke aircraft or one for long-thin routes that UA has or hasn't opened already?

3100nm for CS100 to 3300nm for CS300 737/A319 replacement should give them access to most any US routes.

After all 737-700 3365 no winglets to 3440nm winglets range. Mind you the A319 has 3600nm without shark lets & 3700nm with them.

[Edited 2015-10-21 08:49:43]

Polot · Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 151):
Jets at YTZ would actually force AC's hand to order the CSeries to remain competitive with PD on YUL-YTZ.

Sorry, AC is not going to buy the C series because of YTZ. If they buy the C series it would be because they think it is best for there overall network, not because of a handful of flights a day out of YTZ. If YTZ was opened, and AC decided against the C-series, they would either deal with being uncompetitive on YUL-YTZ, or drop the route. It is not such a critical route to singlehandely decide AC's fleet choices.

This is also completely ignoring the fact that WS was also pushing for the 73GMAX being approved as well, claiming it would also meet noise restrictions.

diverted · Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):
There are far more impactful ways to save BBD then opening up YTZ. As I said before, YTZ is basically insignificant when it comes to the C-series/BBD, especially when the alternative is Porter can buy more Q400s (a BBD product!). Moving Porter's 12 frame order from provisional to firm is not suddenly going to reverse the C-series fortunes and save BBD.

No, but you can be sure that Bob Deluce and BBD have had some phone calls about it. They'd be stupid not to at least draw attention to it and try and drag Adam Vaughan through the mud. Will it save the program? No. But it still brings in cash flow, takes up delivery slots, and helps the program. Particularly if Bombardier is asking for federal help. It would sound kind of funny for the government to help them, while at the same time unequivocally killing the chances of a conditional order. At this point, it needs all the help it can get. The alternative wouldn't involve ordering more Q400s IMHO. Look at PD's route map. They've covered most of where they can usably fly the Q400 ex YTZ. You may see a few small changes, IE PIT added this year, but for the most part they've got major centres covered. Sure, they may add a handful of frames to try some growth out of YOW or YUL, but nothing major that I can foresee. Unless they were to abandon YTZ as their main hub and change strategies completely to expand. Which is probably unlikely. Without this expansion, I can't see PD growing much, if at all going forward. Keep in mind they haven't taken a new aircraft since 2011. They're not just going to order 10+ more Q400s because their Cseries plan didn't pan out. This entire expansion IMHO is PD trying to go from niche carrier to major airline while retaining what makes them unique.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 150):
I'm hoping Porter is turned down by the new government which means no jets for YTZ. The GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has too many jets in the skies already...

I really hope you're trolling. Why are you on an aviation site? Go look at the airspace over the eastern seaboard, primarily NY/Boston if you want to see congested airspace.

Quoting Polot (Reply 155):
This is also completely ignoring the fact that WS was also pushing for the 73GMAX being approved as well, claiming it would also meet noise restrictions.

It may well meet noise restrictions, but are they able to set it down on that runway, even with a 200m extension on each end, and take off with a useable payload?

Polot · Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
This entire expansion IMHO is PD trying to go from niche carrier to major airline while retaining what makes them unique.

Even with the expansion PD will be a niche carrier. They will never be a major airline until they expand at a larger airport.

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
It may well meet noise restrictions, but are they able to set it down on that runway, even with a 200m extension on each end, and take off with a useable payload?

When properly equipped the 73G has fantastic runway performance. I don't see why the MAX would be any different. With a 400m total extension DL operates EYW-ATL nonstop with the 73G and I believe no restrictions in the seat count (although there are baggage restrictions). EYW-ATL, by the way, is over twice the distance of YUL.

A 400m total extension would also make YTZ's runway 100m shorter than SNA, which is home to such flights as SNA-EWR on the 73G. So yes, I'm confident that a 73GMAX could operate with a usable payload out of an expanded YTZ.

[Edited 2015-10-21 09:35:12]

YXXMIKE · Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):

There are far more impactful ways to save BBD then opening up YTZ. As I said before, YTZ is basically insignificant when it comes to the C-series/BBD, especially when the alternative is Porter can buy more Q400s (a BBD product!). Moving Porter's 12 frame order from provisional to firm is not suddenly going to reverse the C-series fortunes and save BBD.

BBD would much rather have cash and other government support to target the bigger fish in the sea. That is what will make or break the program/company.

Sorry Polot - missed that first posting. My second point was more to do with the Liberal government supporting the project as a whole not just the YTZ issue, I should have made that clearer. I'm certainly under no grand illusions whilst thinking that BBD's hopes and dreams now lie with PD & the YTZ runway extension....because if that where the case I'd give up now and drown my fanboy sorrows in a glass of wine or two!

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
This entire expansion IMHO is PD trying to go from niche carrier to major airline while retaining what makes them unique.

Assuming PD is a profitable carrier and the C-Series becomes a useful tool for them (assuming a runway extension does happen) I don't think PD could ever utilize YTZ as a true hub and become one of the big boys in that sense. The island will only allow for so much given it's size and PD will still only be a niche player in that market segment.

diverted · Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 158):
Assuming PD is a profitable carrier and the C-Series becomes a useful tool for them (assuming a runway extension does happen) I don't think PD could ever utilize YTZ as a true hub and become one of the big boys in that sense. The island will only allow for so much given it's size and PD will still only be a niche player in that market segment.

I agree with you that YTZ will never be a true major hub. But, from where PD is now, it's their best option. Trying to fly a new fleet type out of a "focus city" such as YOW or YUL will never generate enough traffic. Their best bet was to hope to extend the island, and once they've maxed that, then start growing outwards. Imagine the inital PD growth, but this time with a new fleet type, until they've reached a point where they have the traffic to support a second true hub. Regardless, it's all up in the air, much more so with the Liberal government. I don't have a horse in this race anymore, I don't work for or own stock in BBD, nor am I employed by PD. I genuinely think it's a good thing for the city of Toronto, and the outstations where PD flies. Having flown through YTZ 100+ times I'd really like to see more destinations is all. And preclearance...oh how I'd love preclearance.

YYZYYT · Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
No, but you can be sure that Bob Deluce and BBD have had some phone calls about it. They'd be stupid not to at least draw attention to it and try and drag Adam Vaughan through the mud. Will it save the program? No. But it still brings in cash flow, takes up delivery slots, and helps the program. Particularly if Bombardier is asking for federal help.

The article citing Adam Vaughan is pure politicking - he has always been a vocal opponent, as has the local councilor. He is attempting to box in the incoming government.

And you can bet that BBD will also have its own approach to the new government, if / when it needs to seek funds to get through the present situation.

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
It would sound kind of funny for the government to help them, while at the same time unequivocally killing the chances of a conditional order

I bet the government will find it easy to do both simultaneously... promote economic growth in Quebec, and also protect it's own future popularity in Toronto (if that is what they see as "popular" here). But then, I've always been a little cynical.

JoeCanuck · Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:50 pm

Porter wins with a longer runway even if the CSeries is rejected. That extra runway will allow for larger fuel loads which could open more markets for the Q400's. Once a longer runway is already done, it's a smaller step to get the CSeries in there.

Most of the objections to the development are about jets, not a longer runway.

TheRedBaron · Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:52 pm

They will certify it, and may get only a handful of orders and may have to sit in a very hot potato for a couple of years, the SSJ story all over again, in the end if the product is real good, competitive has a GOOD PRICE and service, it will penetrate the market, maybe slow at first but eventually Bombardier will sell...how many? who knows?

TRB

AirbusCanada · Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 155):
Sorry, AC is not going to buy the C series because of YTZ. If they buy the C series it would be because they think it is best for there overall network, not because of a handful of flights a day out of YTZ. If YTZ was opened, and AC decided against the C-series, they would either deal with being uncompetitive on YUL-YTZ, or drop the route. It is not such a critical route to singlehandely decide AC's fleet choices.

Why do you think they bought shiny new Q400 and fly them out of YTZ?
AC will do anything and everything to stop any new or growing airlines in Canada, even it means loosing massive amount of $$$. It's in their operating handbook.

lostsound · Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:04 pm

*delete double post*

[Edited 2015-10-21 16:11:50]

lostsound · Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 150):

I'm hoping Porter is turned down by the new government which means no jets for YTZ. The GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has too many jets in the skies already...

This is not a very educated reasoning. I for YTZ/Toronto + job creation + more competition decreasing airfare for several big player routes + Bombardier gets another solidified order.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 163):
Why do you think they bought shiny new Q400 and fly them out of YTZ?
AC will do anything and everything to stop any new or growing airlines in Canada, even it means loosing massive amount of $$$. It's in their operating handbook.

Ture, AC is always hard on upstarts. False, AC would not order CSeries just to fight Porter. AC already knows they can't properly compete with Porter due to slots and they are actually on record saying they are against the expansion of YTZ because it gives Porter a monopoly due to the distribution of slots. If anything by your logic, it would make more sense for AC to shut down talks with BBD because they don't want to support the YTZ project.

AC still hasn't ordered a replacement for it's A319s and E190 aircraft. The CSeries fits the bill and there's pressure to support a large Canadian company in need. IMO that's more likely the circumstances in play for an AC order.

EnviroTO · Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 161):
Most of the objections to the development are about jets, not a longer runway.

Most arguments about the island airport are about change that doesn't align to the vision that people have of what a waterfront should be. Some people were happy with Toronto Islands being quaint and quiet and the odd flying school or private Cessna didn't matter (i.e. change is bad / unnecessary), some people want the airport closed because it was in the way of something they deemed better or more publicly accessible, some people don't think a certain amount of expansion hampers the enjoyment others get out of the waterfront (i.e. you can listen to an outdoor string quartet at the music garden while an aircraft flies by to no detriment), and some people think that all other uses of the waterfront (i.e. elementary school zones, playgrounds, quiet relaxation in the sun, etc) are secondary to creating a Porter hub (i.e. saving time from going to Pearson and support of a well run airline that is the client of an important Canadian manufacturer). The points of view are all over the place so I don't think you can say that most of the objections are about jets when there is a significant population which is focused on usability of the waterfront which would have nothing to do with jets especially when you consider that by some measures the CSeries jets are quieter than jet-props.

Thomaas · Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 155):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 151):
Jets at YTZ would actually force AC's hand to order the CSeries to remain competitive with PD on YUL-YTZ.

Sorry, AC is not going to buy the C series because of YTZ. If they buy the C series it would be because they think it is best for there overall network, not because of a handful of flights a day out of YTZ. If YTZ was opened, and AC decided against the C-series, they would either deal with being uncompetitive on YUL-YTZ, or drop the route. It is not such a critical route to singlehandely decide AC's fleet choices.

Except the CSeries is also a great aircraft to replace the E190 and A319 at AC. It would no doubt force their hand to order it. You underestimate just how important Montreal-Toronto is for AC if you think they'd let themselves be uncompetitive and run props against jet.

Quoting Polot (Reply 157):
Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
It may well meet noise restrictions, but are they able to set it down on that runway, even with a 200m extension on each end, and take off with a useable payload?

When properly equipped the 73G has fantastic runway performance. I don't see why the MAX would be any different. With a 400m total extension DL operates EYW-ATL nonstop with the 73G and I believe no restrictions in the seat count (although there are baggage restrictions). EYW-ATL, by the way, is over twice the distance of YUL.

A 400m total extension would also make YTZ's runway 100m shorter than SNA, which is home to such flights as SNA-EWR on the 73G. So yes, I'm confident that a 73GMAX could operate with a usable payload out of an expanded YTZ.

The 73G will never make it to YTZ, the airport doesn't have space for a plane of that size.

Tangowhisky · Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):
There are far more impactful ways to save BBD then opening up YTZ. As I said before, YTZ is basically insignificant when it comes to the C-series/BBD, especially when the alternative is Porter can buy more Q400s (a BBD product!).

I couldn't disagree with you more. The CSeries is in trouble. BBD is in trouble. The new government will fall to earth, wake up and understand that there is so much they can do to turn things around. The Porter deal is much easier for the government to be a catalyst in than an Air Canada or WestJet order.

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):
Moving Porter's 12 frame order from provisional to firm is not suddenly going to reverse the C-series fortunes and save BBD.

Again I disagree. The order book needs to grow. Porter would be an ideal showcase for long range STOL operations.

Quoting Polot (Reply 146):
BBD would much rather have cash and other government support to target the bigger fish in the sea.

Getting orders is much harder for them than getting backdoor government cash infusion. They need closure on key campaigns.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 160):
I bet the government will find it easy to do both simultaneously... promote economic growth in Quebec, and also protect it's own future popularity in Toronto

Yes because all politicians in the end flip flop

Polot · Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 167):
Except the CSeries is also a great aircraft to replace the E190 and A319 at AC. It would no doubt force their hand to order it.

Exactly. I'm not saying AC won't order the C Series, I'm just saying that YTZ is not going to be the reason

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 167):
The 73G will never make it to YTZ, the airport doesn't have space for a plane of that size.

I suggest you look up the exterior size of the CS100 and compare it to the 73G. I think you might be in for a surprise

The CSeries is by no means a tiny plane; remember you are talking about something with the capacity of the A318/736 (CS100) or A319/73G (CS300) but seating only 5, not 6 abreast and the CSeries' great range and take off performance is not because of stubby little wings...

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 168):
Again I disagree. The order book needs to grow. Porter would be an ideal showcase for long range STOL operations.

A niche operation. Most carriers will not be using or ordering the CSeries for long range STOL operations.

[Edited 2015-10-21 18:04:58]

[Edited 2015-10-21 18:06:27]

JoeCanuck · Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 166):
The points of view are all over the place so I don't think you can say that most of the objections are about jets when there is a significant population which is focused on usability of the waterfront which would have nothing to do with jets especially when you consider that by some measures the CSeries jets are quieter than jet-props.

There are undoubtedly lots of reasons why people are opposing the CSeries at YTZ or any growth there at all, but the posters and shouting heads are all saying, 'no jets at Toronto Island'.

Jets are the only new objections, other than getting the airport closed altogether, and that's not going to happen. The rest of the objections have to do with anybody using the island as an airport.

Viscount724 · Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 151):
Jets at YTZ would actually force AC's hand to order the CSeries to remain competitive with PD on YUL-YTZ.

PD wants the CSeries for new longer-range routes from YTZ, not for YTZ-YUL where there would be virtually no time saving over the Q400. Personally I would prefer the Q400 on routes that short or even twice as long to avoid any risk of a middle seat, plus faster boarding/deplaning.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 163):
Quoting Polot (Reply 155):
Sorry, AC is not going to buy the C series because of YTZ. If they buy the C series it would be because they think it is best for there overall network, not because of a handful of flights a day out of YTZ. If YTZ was opened, and AC decided against the C-series, they would either deal with being uncompetitive on YUL-YTZ, or drop the route. It is not such a critical route to singlehandely decide AC's fleet choices.

Why do you think they bought shiny new Q400 and fly them out of YTZ?
AC will do anything and everything to stop any new or growing airlines in Canada, even it means loosing massive amount of $$$. It's in their operating handbook.

Only 5 Sky Regional Q400s operate on behalf of AC from YTZ to YUL. That's not a massive investment and can't be losing a massive amount of $$$. And AC only has 15 slots at YTZ for their 15 daily YUL flights (fewer on weekends). And extending the runway isn't going to do anything to increase the number of slots.

diverted · Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 163):
Why do you think they bought shiny new Q400 and fly them out of YTZ?
AC will do anything and everything to stop any new or growing airlines in Canada, even it means loosing massive amount of $$$. It's in their operating handbook.

Well to be fair they were ex Lynx birds. If memory serves, they got a pretty good deal considering they were 3 or 4 year old birds at the time. Though one of them was leased to QK for a summer season a few years back, and the QK pilots I spoke to said it was a bit of a dog compared with their regular fleet. Don't know if they were referring to reliability, or the options package, but they didn't like that one frame.

Amiga500 · Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:19 am

A thought just struck me.
The new Canadian govt have pledged/threatened to exit F-35 program.

Will that be used as a bargaining chip to secure investment in BBD by LM?

bmacleod · Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 156):
I really hope you're trolling. Why are you on an aviation site?

As the posting rules clearly state (Detailed Rules) everyone has the right to express their opinions in this forum.

Anyway if new MP Adam Vaughan gets his way there won't be any jets at Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 140):
Quoting planemaker (Reply 134):
Quoting diverted (Reply 130):
though it's probably that a Liberal government would oppose it.

What a surprise result... it looks like no one really expected it. The Liberal candidate, Adam Vaughan, for the riding where the Island Airport is located, got elected and he is probably the most vociferous opponent.

More recent item:
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hal...ets-is-dead-says-adam-vaughan.html

Sounds like no Porter CSeries or other jets at "What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus

diverted · Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 174):
As the posting rules clearly state (Detailed Rules) everyone has the right to express their opinions in this forum.

I realize that. I just meant if airplane noise bothers you, why are you on an aviation site? I guess to give an analogy, it'd be like someone who hates fish and rice being on a sushi forum.

Rgds

YXXMIKE · Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 174):
As the posting rules clearly state (Detailed Rules) everyone has the right to express their opinions in this forum.

Nobody will ever debate your right to an opinion on this forum, we all have them. The question we where all wondering is why you would make a statement with no actual factual evidence, supporting information etc. to back it up. It only made yourself look very ignorant in the end and doesn't reflect well on yourself is all.

bmacleod · Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 175):

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 176):

In Halifax our airport is no where near down-town. Approx 35 km away...

Personally I love the sounds of jets flying overhead; it's just the down-town Toronto location where many citizens have their own concerns and such.

If Porter can win their battle with the concerned citizens group and Adam Vaughan....that's fine.

[Edited 2015-10-22 10:48:52]

JoeCanuck · Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:38 pm

I hope nobody lets slip to Vaughan that technically...Q400's ARE jets...just very high bypass, open fan jets.

JoeCanuck · Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 180):
Adam Vaughan's perfect vision for the waterfront? 100 story condos on every square foot of the island.

The more successful a politician is, the less likely he does anything out of altruism. You can't move up in the political world without your pocket getting lined with green.

bmacleod · Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 178):
I hope nobody lets slip to Vaughan that technically...Q400's ARE jets...just very high bypass, open fan jets

I imagine the noise from C-Series will be quite noisier than Q400s. That seems to be the underlying issue.

[Edited 2015-10-23 06:38:25]

yhu · Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 182):
I imagine the noise from C-Series will be quite noisier than Q400s. That seems to be the underlying issue.

So far noise tests seem to be stating otherwise, but I guess we need to wait for the final results to come out.

bmacleod · Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7):
The CSeries is a serious threat to be cancelled.

I'm sticking to my

AC in time will place a "significant order" and others will follow.

The global market is still turbulent right now and nothing will happen overnight....

Beatyair · Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:18 am

The C Series was mentioned in a November 2014 article with the E190. With a Lack of Sales buy Bombardier since the article has been written allows United to to have the upper hand on a Bombardier. I hope United take the leap and Bombardier gives them a smoking deal on the first batch.

PlanesNTrains · Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 180):
I imagine the noise from C-Series will be quite noisier than Q400s.

Well, we all have an imagination, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's reality.

-Dave

Tangowhisky · Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 173):
A thought just struck me.
The new Canadian govt have pledged/threatened to exit F-35 program.

Will that be used as a bargaining chip to secure investment in BBD by LM?

Interesting thought and a good one.

Here is another. The new government will go to Boeing and tell them that Canada will buy new F-18 but Boeing would have to invest in Bombardier's CSeries.

End result, the new government looks good keeping their election promise to cancel the F-35s, get someone else other than the Federal government (tax payers) to bail out Bombardier, an hide the cancellation costs of the F-35s. The media will love it (and play down the cancellation costs). After all, they are more in love with Justin, than Justin himself.

[Edited 2015-10-24 18:43:14]

planemaker · Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 185):
The new government will go to Boeing and tell them that Canada will buy new F-18 but Boeing would have to invest in Bombardier's CSeries.

The Liberal leader has stated repeatedly that his government would hold an open competition to select a cheaper alternative to the F-35 and spend the savings on naval ships.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 185):
an hide the cancellation costs of the F-35s. The media will love it (and play down the cancellation costs).

There are no cancellation costs because a contract was never signed to purchase the F-35. The outgoing Conservative government only intended to purchase the F-35. If they had been re-elected there is little doubt that they would have attempted to negotiate a contract but they were still a long way off from one.

bmacleod · Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 184):

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 180):
I imagine the noise from C-Series will be quite noisier than Q400s.

Well, we all have an imagination, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's reality.

No I don't think I'm imagining - Go to time index 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cf_OBv7WA0

Or were you just joking?

[Edited 2015-10-25 09:24:10]

diverted · Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 187):
No I don't think I'm imagining - Go to time index 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cf_OBv7WA0

Or were you just joking?

I know that was directed to another poster, but I"m going to reserve judgement until we have actual dB levels to compare rather than youtube videos.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 186):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 185):The new government will go to Boeing and tell them that Canada will buy new F-18 but Boeing would have to invest in Bombardier's CSeries.
The Liberal leader has stated repeatedly that his government would hold an open competition to select a cheaper alternative to the F-35 and spend the savings on naval ships.

Which IMO makes tons of sense. It's like Trudeau says, we have no need for a 5th gen strike aircraft. I'm firmly in the Super Hornet camp. The Navy is in dire need of investment as it is. We have 1(!!!) destroyer, a couple Halifax class frigates and the resupply ships are retiring which will leave a gap where we don't have the ability to resupply our own ships for about two years.

I'd much rather have a more balanced military force than a bunch of fancy F-35s. I cannot foresee any mission where an F35 is more valuable to us than a Super Hornet. Unless WW3 starts, in which case I'm sure the US will be involved with THEIR F35s

golfradio · Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 187):
No I don't think I'm imagining - Go to time index 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cf_OBv7WA0

Are you really basing your comments on a youtube clip? The TPA's limits are 84 TO and 92 approach. Q400 reaches 78 at TO and 94 on AP depending on the flap settings.

The CS100 is going to be stage 4 compliant and BBD is promising ~20 EPNdB lower than stage 4 max allowed. So we are looking at ~86 AP for the CS100.

Paolo92 · Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:09 pm

Technically, the Q400 has a noise level of 255.1 EPNdB, while the CSeries was targeting a noise level of 255.0 EPNdB (not yet certified, thought they advertised that it has beaten expectations).
According to http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/en/cseries/Environment.html the CSeries has a 15dB margin to the "future stage 4" which corresponds to approximately 22dB margin to current stage 4.
It's a quite aircraft

planemaker · Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 188):
I'm firmly in the Super Hornet camp.

It makes sense considering the facts on the ground. However, the government will have to follow through on a tender. If one of the reasons that the F-18 was originally selected over the F-16 (that two engine are required for Arctic patrols) then the F-35 and the Gripen will not be qualified. An interesting side note is that in 1986 the PC party awarded BBD a very controversial 20 year maintenance contract for F-18s over Bristol Aerospace in Manitoba.

Quoting diverted (Reply 188):
I'd much rather have a more balanced military force than a bunch of fancy F-35s.

Incredible that the F-35 was developed as the "cheap" F-16 replacement and it is the most expensive weapon system in history. It sucks up defence funds and leaves fewer resources for other branches.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 189):

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 190):

As has been referenced in a few posts, noise is not really the issue. The newly elected local politicians and the groups protesting against jets are actually against the island airport. If they could they would pull a...

.

If no infrastructure construction work was required to accommodate jets, it would be a bit harder to stop the CS100. However, even without airport infrastructure work, the other issue, mainland side impact would still be a major issue.

Tangowhisky · Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 186):
The Liberal leader has stated repeatedly that his government would hold an open competition to select a cheaper alternative to the F-35 and spend the savings on naval ships.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 186):
There are no cancellation costs because a contract was never signed to purchase the F-35.

OK then all the better for the new government to twist Boeing's arm (in an "open competition") to invest in BBD, and in return Boeing would get the fighter jets. I am not saying this is what will happen, but can't imagine this idea has not been thought of. The new government will be in a tight spot in Quebec if BBD collapses, they have to play with every lever at their disposal.

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 187):
Or were you just joking?

Not joking. You said "I imagine..." which is pretty much just an opinion. Your opinion of which one is louder doesn't necessarily reflect reality, but perhaps rather your desires. Like others, I'll wait to see the outcome.

-Dave

planemaker · Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 192):
OK then all the better for the new government to twist Boeing's arm (in an "open competition") to invest in BBD, and in return Boeing would get the fighter jets.

The timing of such a notion is off. There will be no bid for fighters for at least a year. Furthermore, Boeing is in the "driver" seat in any dealings with the Canadian government as there's only 2 other probable "contenders" (though others may submit bids). Moreover, Boeing already has a subsidiary in Canada so there is nothing that BBD offers that interests Boeing.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 192):
I am not saying this is what will happen, but can't imagine this idea has not been thought of. The new government will be in a tight spot in Quebec if BBD collapses, they have to play with every lever at their disposal.

It hasn't been thought of for several reasons, including that it is improbable. As industry commentators have already mentioned, there would be anti-trust issues that would stop or at the very least throw up roadblocks delaying any deal and time is of the essence.

BTW, the new government would not be in a "hot spot" for several reasons if they do nothing. First is that they have four years before the next election. Second, because of Quebec-Federal dynamics, the "Caisse" would have to invest before the Federal Government would do anything. Third, same thing with the Quebec government. And even then, with $310 million already sunk into CSeries funding by the Federal Government (and $2.2 billion overall to BBD), the Federal Government would be pilloried by the rest of Canada for "throwing" even more money at BBD. And it still doesn't change the market dynamic of the CSeries... it would just prolong the agony.

As I said from day one, the CSeries will end up like Fokker... great plane but poor business plan.

Tangowhisky · Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):

You are extremely closed minded about BBD when it comes to exploring new options. You have taken the I told you so position, and ramble on, twist my words, etc.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
Boeing already has a subsidiary in Canada so there is nothing that BBD offers that interests Boeing.

BBD is not offering, and I did not say that. It would be the Canadian Federal Government who are in the market for fighter jets.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
there would be anti-trust issues

Oh really? Boeing taking an equity position on little Bombardier would ring anti-trust issues? Try again.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
BTW, the new government would not be in a "hot spot" for several reasons if they do nothing. First is that they have four years before the next election.

Really? Here is a reality check for you. The government has 4 years, BBD has months. In the same way Obama AND Canadian governments bailed out Chrsyler and GM, the new government MUST save BBD. There is no doubt about that or they can kiss many voters and unions goodbye and no just in Quebec but Ontario.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
Second, because of Quebec-Federal dynamics, the "Caisse" would have to invest before the Federal Government would do anything.

What does the Caisse have to do with the fighter jets the feds need? The Caisee and the Quebec gov't do not need to be part of this. The fighter jet contract is $50b plus over the life of the jets. That is of great interest to Boeing in lieu of owning say equity in CSeries for starters. It is a drop in the bucket, with some potential payoffs.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
the Federal Government would be pilloried by the rest of Canada for "throwing" even more money at BBD.

No they would not becuase it is a fighter jet contract that Boeing would be the preferred bidder. The country would be ecstatic "no F35's"

Quoting planemaker (Reply 194):
As I said from day one, the CSeries will end up like Fokker... great plane but poor business plan.

Yes we know.
We know.
We know.

diverted · Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 195):
Oh really? Boeing taking an equity position on little Bombardier would ring anti-trust issues? Try again.

Didn't Boeing try the 'buy a Canadian company' when AC was aircraft shopping about 20 years ago??

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 195):
Really? Here is a reality check for you. The government has 4 years, BBD has months. In the same way Obama AND Canadian governments bailed out Chrsyler and GM, the new government MUST save BBD. There is no doubt about that or they can kiss many voters and unions goodbye and no just in Quebec but Ontario.

No thanks.
Maybe the government could assist them, on the condition that "the family" give up their controlling share. I don't want my tax dollars going to subsidize the business of a bunch of useless billionaires who have done nothing but mismanage the silver spoon they were born with or married into.

By no means does the government HAVE to save Bombardier. The Netherlands is a great country...can't say it's any worse now that they Fokker isn't around anymore.

planemaker · Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:56 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 196):
No thanks.
Maybe the government could assist them, on the condition that "the family" give up their controlling share. I don't want my tax dollars going to subsidize the business of a bunch of useless billionaires who have done nothing but mismanage the silver spoon they were born with or married into.

By no means does the government HAVE to save Bombardier. The Netherlands is a great country...can't say it's any worse now that they Fokker isn't around anymore.

He aware of the resentment the rest of the country has over Federal subsidies to BBD.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 195):
You are extremely closed minded about BBD when it comes to exploring new options. You have taken the I told you so position, and ramble on, twist my words, etc.

I'm not closed minded, I just don't deal in non-palusible scenarios. And quoting you directly is not twisting your words.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 195):
BBD is not offering, and I did not say that. It would be the Canadian Federal Government who are in the market for fighter jets.

Here is what you said:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 185):
The new government will go to Boeing and tell them that Canada will buy new F-18 but Boeing would have to invest in Bombardier's CSeries.

And as I said, a) the govenment has to have an tender that won't take place till 2017 and Boeing will be one of sevearl bidders, and b) Boeing wound't even invest in BBD for all the reasons I already outlined. Can't be simpler than that.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 195):
Boeing taking an equity position on little Bombardier would ring anti-trust issues?

Boeing would never take a position in BBD... just the CSeries (as Airbus was discussing) and that would create anit-trust issues. Just look at the anti trust scutiny the MDD deal and there was no commercial competition with Boeing. This is basic.

bmacleod · Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 151):
Jets at YTZ would actually force AC's hand to order the CSeries to remain competitive with PD on YUL-YTZ.

Well this should shut the door on any further debate....

Trudeau Gov't Confirms No Jets @ YTZ (by marktci Nov 2 2015 in Civil Aviation)

diverted · Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 198):
Well this should shut the door on any further debate....

That may be a tough sell if they end up handing BBD a bailout...."Hey, we singlehandedly shot down a possible order without actually looking things through, but at the same time you're struggling so here's a cool billion"

Though there was huge vocal opposition, there's also a large percentage of people who want the jet ban lifted. If city council were to OK it, I think the feds could change their stance. We will see.

Interesting times ahead. I don't have a horse in this race anymore (unless you consider that I pay taxes and BBD loves corporate welfare) but I'd personally like to see YTZ expanded and opened up to anything that can meeet the noise levels specified in the Tripartite Agreement.

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