AirbusCanada
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 197):
Boeing would never take a position in BBD... just the CSeries (as Airbus was discussing) and that would create anit-trust issues. Just look at the anti trust scutiny the MDD deal and there was no commercial competition with Boeing. This is basic.

Both of the McDonald Douglas product line (MD-90 vs B737 & MD-11 vs 777) overlapped with Boeing Product is the domestic US market, hence the anti trust scrutiny.


None of the current Bombardier products (Three family of business jets, CRJ series and Q400) overlaps with any Boeing Product. The CS300 might overlap with B737-700, which accounts for only tiny portion of Boeing Revenue.

Anti Trust shouldn't be an issue in this hypothetical merger.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 199):
"Hey, we singlehandedly shot down a possible order without actually looking things through, but at the same time you're struggling so here's a cool billion"

This sort of government and media incompetent insanity does not happen in Japan, Russia, and China who are doing everything possible to help get their aviation industries develop their roots. Even with the facts and demos BBD presented about the CSeries emissions, the incompetence just blows my mind. After Nortel, and Blackberry, I guess to them Bombardier going under is the standard in Canada.

Quoting diverted (Reply 199):
Though there was huge vocal opposition, there's also a large percentage of people who want the jet ban lifted. If city council were to OK it, I think the feds could change their stance. We will see.

I don't understand what Bombardier gets out of Ontario any longer. They did everything they could to deliver the streetcars out of the Thunder Bay plant, and now the TTC wants litigation. They have another rail operation in Kingston that employs a few hundred people. They employ thousands at de Havilland making Global 5000/6000, scraps of Q400s, and employ hundreds for the Commercial Aircraft division. BBD has too much rail and aerospace capacity and Ontario needs to understand that. BBD is bleeding and Ontario is looking at where to strike next. It is absolutely pathetic.
Only the paranoid survive
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 201):
I don't understand what Bombardier gets out of Ontario any longer. They did everything they could to deliver the streetcars out of the Thunder Bay plant, and now the TTC wants litigation.

What are you talking about? 100% of the GO Transit rail fleet, 100% of the Toronto subway fleet, 100% of the Toronto streetcar fleet, and 100% of the LRT fleet planned for Toronto and Kitchener is from Bombardier and Thunder Bay. Kingston exists because of the SRT fleet. The TTC is litigating because they are being forced to fix up aging streetcars built in Thunder Bay due to significant delays largely due to their plant in Mexico. Why would Toronto and Ontario subsidize Mexico?
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 200):
Both of the McDonald Douglas product line (MD-90 vs B737 & MD-11 vs 777) overlapped with Boeing Product is the domestic US market, hence the anti trust scrutiny.

Many people will say that MDD took over Boeing. 

Boeing bought MDD for the Military and Space side of the business. The commercial airliner side of the business was dead man walking. They could have hived it off but no one would have bought it.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 200):
The CS300 might overlap with B737-700, which accounts for only tiny portion of Boeing Revenue.

I posted that Boeing would only be interested in the CSeries, not in any other part of BBD. And since the CS300 and 73G/MAX compete head on there would be anti trust issues.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 201):
This sort of government and media incompetent insanity does not happen in Japan, Russia, and China who are doing everything possible to help get their aviation industries develop their roots.

All three of those countries have the population to support a home grown aviation industry. Canada does not.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 201):
Even with the facts and demos BBD presented about the CSeries emissions, the incompetence just blows my mind.

There is no incompetence. The Liberal candidate (who is one of the most vociferous anti jet activists) won the seat at the airport flash point, beating the wife of the almost sainted former leader of the NDP. Furthermore, the Liberals swept most of Toronto. The political calculation was a no brainer. Furthermore, a sale of 12 CS100s to Porter is not going to help BBD NOW when it needs the cash as deliveries would not begin to Porter until after the airport infrastructure construction is completed several years out.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 202):
What are you talking about? 100% of the GO Transit rail fleet, 100% of the Toronto subway fleet, 100% of the Toronto streetcar fleet, and 100% of the LRT fleet planned for Toronto and Kitchener is from Bombardier and Thunder Bay. Kingston exists because of the SRT fleet

You left out the resignalling of the subway system: Alstom, Ottawa LRT: Siemens. Most of what you have listed are past old contracts. What I am listing are recent. BBD has way too much capacity in its businesses and Ontario is bloated.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 203):
All three of those countries have the population to support a home grown aviation industry. Canada does not.

Irrelevant comment.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 203):
There is no incompetence. The Liberal candidate (who is one of the most vociferous anti jet activists) won the seat at the airport flash point,

Incompetent politician as opposed to competent and objective on facts.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 203):
Furthermore, a sale of 12 CS100s to Porter is not going to help BBD NOW when it needs the cash as deliveries would not begin to Porter until after the airport infrastructure construction is completed several years out.

Again it proves you have zero knowledge on marketing and sales. The CSeries needs sales momentum, WHILE it gets the liquidity to finance the production. Porter is a done deal according to the information released right down to the financing which has all been arranged. The airline has a relationship at all operational levels with BBD. All CANADA needs to do is show to the rest of the world it stands by the product, not just poring cash to the company, REGARDLESS of the delivery date.
Only the paranoid survive
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 204):
Irrelevant comment.

It is totally relevant... they have domestic markets with the population to support a homegrown airframer... Canada does not.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 204):
Incompetent politician as opposed to competent and objective on facts.

It is called democracy. The Liberals got elected... very simple.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 204):
All CANADA needs to do is show to the rest of the world it stands by the product, not just poring cash to the company, REGARDLESS of the delivery date.

Porter's 12 frame order it the linchpin to CSeries success... and the CS500 is launching next year...   
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
aryonoco
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 204):
All CANADA needs to do is show to the rest of the world it stands by the product, not just poring cash to the company, REGARDLESS of the delivery date.

1970s called. Their want their protectionist inefficient government-run loss making enterprises back.

I'm a big fan of C Series, but it should stand or fall on its own merits. Easy to blame Airbus and Boeing for their predatory pricing, but fact is, BBD has made a number of tragically mistakes that has led to the state of C Series as it is today.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 204):
You left out the resignalling of the subway system: Alstom, Ottawa LRT: Siemens. Most of what you have listed are past old contracts. What I am listing are recent. BBD has way too much capacity in its businesses and Ontario is bloated.

I have not listed past old contracts. Bombardier will deliver from Thunder Bay to Toronto 900+ transit cars this decade. It will deliver another 150+ bi-levels to GO Transit in the next 3 years. Re-signalling of the subway system wouldn't have much to do with plants in Ontario would it? Ottawa LRT is Alstom with final assembly in Ottawa but the order is pretty insignificant compared to the size of orders in the GTA (i.e. 34 cars versus over 1000 cars).
 
stburke
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 206):
I'm a big fan of C Series, but it should stand or fall on its own merits. Easy to blame Airbus and Boeing for their predatory pricing, but fact is, BBD has made a number of tragically mistakes that has led to the state of C Series as it is today.

The uncontained engine failure wasn't really a mistake one could chalk up to BBD. Lest we forget that Airbus was the product of government backing and intervention. One could argue the 707 was as well since Boeing doubled down and saw a need for a military tanker of the same virtues and lessened their perceived development exposure.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 206):
1970s called. Their want their protectionist inefficient government-run loss making enterprises back.

There isn't major corporation in the western world that doesn't get significant support from government. How many major industries, not just companies have been saved, propped up, bailed out or survive on government actions?

By definition, every military contract is government support...especially when they are a decade late with deliveries and go billions of dollars over price.

The amount of money used to bail out the banking industry dwarfed the GDP of all but a handful of countries...and the icing on the cake is that with the trillions lost and further trillions spent, the global economies going into a tailspin...only one person was ever convicted of a crime. One.

On the other hand, prisons are filled with people jailed for stealing to survive.

Hundreds, if not thousands, got millions of dollars in bonuses directly from the taxpayer as a reward for destroying the pensions and savings of millions.

Chapter 11 is so often argued to not be a subsidy but what is the difference between getting a check to clear your debts and having the debts written off? Actually, there is a difference. The suckers who ponied up the dough in the first place are left with nothing....and the pensions of hundreds of thousands of employees were wiped out.

The executives of the airlines are still making record wages and benefits though.

So the protectionist, inefficient government of the 70's still exists...except fewer people get the benefits of the handouts.
What the...?
 
YXXMIKE
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:43 pm

Well it does appear that November 18th will be a day to mark on the calendar...see if this one comes true:
http://www.fliegerfaust.com/ive-hear...0s-to-be-announced-1437944242.html

Will be interesting to see if anything comes out of the Dubai airshow. Am I right in saying that QR had been interested in the C-Series many moons ago? With certification complete will we see QR open the cheque book finally?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 210):
Well it does appear that November 18th will be a day to mark on the calendar...see if this one comes true:

Air Canada ordering up to 90 CS300 aircraft?

Time to buy some shares.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:06 pm

If this comes true, then it will be the equivalent of JetBlue's order for the E190.
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Polot
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting stburke (Reply 208):
The uncontained engine failure wasn't really a mistake one could chalk up to BBD.

That has hardly been the only issue with the C series. Let's not forget that the C series was suppose to enter service about 2 years ago. Now it looks like the Neo, which was launched in large part as a response to the C series, will enter service first...

Airbus, Boeing, and an uncontained engine failure are not the reason the C series is so far behind schedule. BBD messed up the development, completely blew any lead, and burned through all their cash themselves. Granted Airbus and Boeing have their fair share of blotched program developments in recent times as well, but that doesn't give BBD a free pass.
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 186):
There are no cancellation costs because a contract was never signed to purchase the F-35.

Don't believe everything you read in the papers. You know as well as I do, that Canadian companies won't be getting too many contracts from the F-35 if the government doesn't buy. And a lot of Canada's aerospace sector has wanted a piece of the F-35 over several decades than one-time offsets from a Super Hornet purchase....

Quoting diverted (Reply 188):
Which IMO makes tons of sense. It's like Trudeau says, we have no need for a 5th gen strike aircraft. I'm firmly in the Super Hornet camp.

I'll say this as someone wearing a blue uniform. A lot of the debate in Canada is not fact based and utterly misunderstood. And most of us in blue see this turning out like the Sea King saga. The language is uncannily similar too.

Our Air Force wants the F-35 because we plan on flying it for 40 years. This means what's cutting edge today, like "stealth" is necessary for platform survivability down the road. We also wanted the F-35 because there were plans for several countries to buy it. The Super Hornet has exactly two users: the US Navy and the RAAF (Aussies). That's alarming from a future contracting and maintainability standpoint. Then there's maintenance costs. Twin engine vs. single engine. Those savings work just like they do in the civvy world. And finally there's accessories. Boeing never includes the cost of all those little trinkets like targeting pods, that you need to have a capable operational aircraft, whereas it's all built-in to the F-35.

Beyond that, there's the ridiculous arguments seen in the press about one-engine vs. two-engine. Somebody should tell the Americans and Danes and Norwegians (and our own forefathers who flew single-engine birds) that flying single-engine F-16s in the Arctic Circel is "dangerous".

The calibre of discussion and debate in our press on the topic is maddeningly frustrating from a professional standpoint. But what I truly find offensive is the disngenuity of it all. I can accept that some have decided the F-35 is too expensive. So be it. But why try and argue that it's somehow less capable or inappropriate or that those of us in the Air Force don't know how to assess and write specs properly? Just say you want a cheaper airplane. We can live with that. Wouldn't be the first time, a government has decided that a piece of military kit is too expensive....


In any event, tying Bombardier's rescue to a fighter contract is ridiculous. Boeing knows it can win without buying Bombardier because the new government has all but pledged to drop the F-35. If I were Boeing, I'd even charge Canada more, knowing that the F-35 can't really undercut them. The government has already backed itself into a corner on this one..... So if Boeing can win without even undercutting its price, why bother with rescuing Bombardier, which won't have much room in its civil aviation product portfolio.....
 
Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:07 pm

1. Stealth is not necessary for platform survivability down the road. Stealth, as far as F-35 goes, will be obsolete down the road. Stand-off munitions will be necessary for platform survivability down the road.

2. There are other options besides the Subpar Hornet. Rafale and Eurofighter to name two. Both of which aren't likely to go away any time soon.

3. One engine is cheaper as long as it runs. But if it doesn't you've likely a full airframe loss. If you really want an alternative with one engine (which I consider bad for Canada's geography and for actual warfare), Saab offer the Gripen. If you consider the possibility of needing two engines unnecessary as the aircraft are unlikely to ever have missiles fired at them then save the money and buy the Gripen.

4. You are joking right? LM don't even include the engine in the stated F-35 price.


Some "professionals" cannot see past all the buzzwords, shiny lights and gizmos. F-35 doesn't suit Canada in any way or form for protecting Canadian airspace. Its a logical fallacy to suggest otherwise.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 213):
That has hardly been the only issue with the C series. Let's not forget that the C series was suppose to enter service about 2 years ago. Now it looks like the Neo, which was launched in large part as a response to the C series, will enter service first...

You cant compare a clean sheet design vs a re engined airplane

Quoting YTZ (Reply 214):
If I were Boeing, I'd even charge Canada more, knowing that the F-35 can't really undercut them.

Boeing can't come out of this being all cocky, they can still see competition from both the Typhoon and the Rafale for the Canadian contract.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 214):
Don't believe everything you read in the papers. You know as well as I do, that Canadian companies won't be getting too many contracts from the F-35 if the government doesn't buy.

They won't be getting too many additional contracts but that is not the same as a "cancellation payment". And whomever wins the tender will have to provide industrial offsets.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 214):
A lot of the debate in Canada is not fact based and utterly misunderstood.

It is very well understood and is fact based debate... and as commented on by former air force brass - we do not need prohibitively expensive 5th generation flying "swiss army knives".
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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Polot
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 216):
You cant compare a clean sheet design vs a re engined airplane

Of course not, but you can't ignore mistakes that BBD made. After all, if everything had gone to plan the C series would have entered service first, despite being a clean sheet.
 
Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:50 pm

Ah, I dunno - Sylvain Faust is very enthusiastic - but I do have concerns about objectivity.

He may be spot on, indeed, I hope he is. But I'll wait till the orders arrive before proclaiming the good news.  
 
ytz
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 215):

Without going too far off topic.....

1) Solely relying on stand-off munitions is as stupid as solely relying on stealth. A stealthy aircraft firing stand-off munitiions is still more capable than a less stealthier one doing so. More to the point on survivability. Those same radars that will "obsolete" stealth will detect less stealthier aircraft at even longer ranges, which drastically reduces the effectiveness of your stand-off weapons options. And all this is aside from the fact that our political masters will often decide on rules of engagement which may rule out the stand-off weapons.

2) The debate in Ottawa has solely centred around the Super Hornet. I saw colleagues working at NGFC routinely get lobbied by Opposition politicians, often centred the SH. Reasons were simplistic. Mostly centred on cost (which would rule out the Eurofighter) or cancon (canadian content/industrial offsets ...likely to rule out the Rafale).

3) As part of the US Navy agreeing to its first single-engine bird in decades, they had some exacting requirements on engine reliability. Couple this with the fact that the F-16 has similar loss rates (per flying hour) to the twin engine F-18 that we bought, and the whole "you'll lose the aircraft if the single engine fails" doesn' hold much water, because quiet often the problems are similar enough to result in aircraft loss regardless of one or two engines (think fuel contamination, mid-air, cfit, hydraulics, etc.)

4) You didn'get my point. Boeing's lobbying of our politicians (or in public) doesn't quote all-up pricing. That's purposefully disingenuous. Of course, come bid time, those Super Hornets are going to be more expensive than most expect, for this reason.... As for JSF not including the price of the engine, I'm curious how anyone would submit a bid without including an engine, please explain.....

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 215):
Some "professionals" cannot see past all the buzzwords, shiny lights and gizmos. F-35 doesn't suit Canada in any way or form for protecting Canadian airspace. Its a logical fallacy to suggest otherwise.

You really don't need to resort to such attacks. It's not "buzzwords, shiny lights and gizmos". It's based on engineering and data as we know it. As for "protecting Canadian airspace". We don't do that now. It's subcontracted to the Americans through NORAD with our token contribution (4 CF-18s on high alert). Whatever we buy, isn't going to change that, short of buying hoardes of cheaper aircraft, which our air force would happily support actually, but no government would realistically fund (the choice here is not between say 3 squadrons of Super Hornets or 2 squadrons of F-35s). The simplistic point of view is in somehow believing that we'll be less likely to partciipate in American adventures if we have the Super Hornet, because we'll be "defending Canada". We'll just be less safe....like that time we decided to take part in their Kosovo adventure with unsecured comms....

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 216):
Boeing can't come out of this being all cocky, they can still see competition from both the Typhoon and the Rafale for the Canadian contract.

It's not being cocky. It's business. They can undercut the others. They know that. But that doesn't mean they'll sell airplanes at firesale prices, particularly if they know that the government doesn't care at all about capability. In that case, just price pennies below the competition. Lowest-cost compliant will win.

Notice that rescuing Bombardier won't even enter that discussion.....

Quoting planemaker (Reply 217):
It is very well understood and is fact based debate...

I'd love for the parliamentary committees to get testimony from the pilots and engineers at the project office. My criticism of the last government was the fact that they muzzled all public servants and resorted to politicizing all kinds of government decisions, even when they supported the concept.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 217):

They won't be getting too many additional contracts but that is not the same as a "cancellation payment". And whomever wins the tender will have to provide industrial offsets.

Never said it was. The real tragedy of the EH-101 fiasco (other than the lives lost and no replacement aircraft 20 years later), was the substantial amount of jobs and investment lost by our aerospace sector for what turned out to be a rather successful platform, not the cancellation payment.

By the way, the rhetoric was similar then too. Who needs this "cadillac" three-engined helicopter? Clearly a bunch of air force boys intent on blowing taxpayer money. The same Liberal government had to swallow hard and buy the same helicopter for search and resuce after seeing the analysis when they got elected (which included lower lifecycle cost projections). And in their zeal to avoid swallowing hard again, they decided that we should dumb down the specs and allow an unproven platform (at the time) to bid (and win), resulting in a decade long delay and several deaths. But you know, all that education and experience and we're just falling for the "shiny lights" and "bling"....

In any event, on topic, I think we can all agree that tying any sort of defence procurement to the rescue of Bombardier is extremely unlikely. This isn't the 80s with Boeing and De Havilland. And that means it's going to all the more interesting for this government. How will they balance votes in Montreal and several thousand jobs against subsidies that might violate public sensibilities, trade agreements, etc.?
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:56 pm

F-35 discussion is Military. Keep it there. This is a civil discussion. Can we please get back to the topic of this thread?
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Tangowhisky
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:32 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 209):
There isn't major corporation in the western world that doesn't get significant support from government. How many major industries, not just companies have been saved, propped up, bailed out or survive on government actions?

Excellent post JC. Koreans help their auto, heavy, consumer and electronics industries to enter then thrive in the global markets, Russians are helping their aerospace industries, Japan, China, France, you name it and they help their manufacturing industries. Would the German government bail out Volkwagen who now face upwards of $25 bIllion in liabilities? Absolutely they would. Canada does not have a plan to help its industries thrive and that is why they let companies like Nortel and Blackberry disappear. when the global competition kicks in. Without a national strategy in each of these industries, there is no plan of action when bad times appear.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 205):
It is called democracy. The Liberals got elected... very simple.
Quoting planemaker (Reply 205):
Porter's 12 frame order it the linchpin to CSeries success... and the CS500 is launching next year...

I am still waiting for you to write something that has some depth. Your one line juvenile comments don't address points people make.
Only the paranoid survive
 
atct
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 214):
Beyond that, there's the ridiculous arguments seen in the press about one-engine vs. two-engine. Somebody should tell the Americans and Danes and Norwegians (and our own forefathers who flew single-engine birds) that flying single-engine F-16s in the Arctic Circel is "dangerous".

Not to stir the pot, but, it is. There is a reason most of us prefer to fly Navajo's over Caravan's. Have I flown single engine in the arctic, yep. Would I take a King Air 200 over a PC-12, yep.

atct
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catiii
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:22 am

I've actually come around on this. I believe B6 will place a C Series order in the near future. I also believe they will divest themselves of a significant number of their 190 fleet to another US carrier.

Can't say why I feel this way other than I have a hunch...
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 224):

I've actually come around on this. I believe B6 will place a C Series order in the near future. I also believe they will divest themselves of a significant number of their 190 fleet to another US carrier.

Can't say why I feel this way other than I have a hunch...

I believe we've discussed a possible three way deal where B6 takes the CSeries and then pawns off the E190's to UA. Stranger things can happen.

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PW100
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 223):
There is a reason most of us prefer to fly Navajo's over Caravan's

Irrelevant. Most Caravans (nor Navajo's) are not equipped with high performance ejection seats, with SAR standing by 24/7 for a pick-up within 60 minutes.
Most people in Navajo and Caravan travel for commercial reasons and expect associated safety. Military view toward pilot safety is a different ball game than commercial passenger safety.

There are plenty of single engine fighter jets operating in European Nordic environment.

Anyway, hope year-end will turn out to be a good year for C-series.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:28 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 223):

Not to stir the pot, but, it is. There is a reason most of us prefer to fly Navajo's over Caravan's. Have I flown single engine in the arctic, yep. Would I take a King Air 200 over a PC-12, yep.

There's an old saying about piston twins, "the second engine takes you to the scene of the accident".

There isn't a piston aircraft on the planet that I personally consider more reliable than any turbine powered aircraft, regardless of the number of engines. I grew up in the Canadian arctic and spent a lot of time flying over huge expanses of the middle of nowhere, (as a passenger), and I would much rather fly in a Caravan than a Navajo.

There seem to be more fuel related reliability problems with turbines than mechanical and those would most likely affect both engines.

Regardless, greatest danger in flying over the arctic, (or anywhere), is the pilot, not the plane.
What the...?
 
neromancer
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:23 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 226):
rrelevant. Most Caravans (nor Navajo's) are not equipped with high performance ejection seats, with SAR standing by 24/7 for a pick-up within 60 minutes.
Most people in Navajo and Caravan travel for commercial reasons and expect associated safety. Military view toward pilot safety is a different ball game than commercial passenger safety.

There are plenty of single engine fighter jets operating in European Nordic environment.

Not to jump into this debate. But to simply point out that Arctic Canada is several times larger than the European Nordic environment. And any crash in Northern Canada could lead to rescue response times that stretch into several hours or more.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting atct (Reply 223):

Not too go too far off topic....again. Most Canadians don't even know this. We bought the F-18 over the F-16 because of its radar and aircraft performance. Nothing to do with twin engines. Somehow that myth has developed all on its own, to the point where a lot of people think its dangerous to operate in the Arctic with single engine aircraft, something our air force (and other air forces) have done for decades.

It is what it is.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 226):

Most of the non-military types thinking they need a second engine don't get the difference in military and civil ops. They also don't get the keypoint. You don't buy aircraft to patrol the Arctic. You buy them to win a fight and bomb targets. And to get out alive doing that, you need to make sure your airplane is more capable than the other guy's.

Quoting catiii (Reply 224):

Every time I look at B6 and CSeries, I can't help but think of what a perfect fit they are. B6 would be so much better off moving all their A320 orders to the 321. And the CSeries offers a way to maintain their brand while fending off some rather damaging demands from Wall Street. The CS100 lets them increase Y+ and stay under 100 seats. And the CS500 would let them avoid the increase to densify the A320. Great aircraft to reduce Y+ (compared to the A320) and stay below 150 seats.

Just can't see B6 going for it though. It's huge to swap out a fleet. And the transition involves running three fleets at the same time......
 
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 230):

Oh no....not the Canadian Printed Press....! RUN AWAY....RUN AWAY...!

Magazine writers get exactly one vote each and considering their severely declining credibility, readerships and revenues, they should probably be more concerned with their own jobs. The few readers that are left care more about what kardashians and baby royals are wearing than questionable investment advice.

Maybe Trudeau with put some cash in the kitty...maybe he won't, but it certainly won't be up to hacks writing for magazines you can only find in a dentist's office. Here's what the Prime Minister says;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...id-for-bombardier/article27140505/

Quote:
Asked whether he was shutting the door on Bombardier, Trudeau told public broadcaster Radio-Canada that “I am not opening or shutting the door.”

He added: “It’s the minister who will examine this. This is an important matter to consider, but it will be done based on the interests of Canada, Canadians and our economy, not based on political interests.”
What the...?
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 230):


^^^^^^^^

I can only imagine the amount of CSeries hatered when the next, big order for that aircraft comes to fruition.

Oh yeah... "these will never be delivered", "phantom order", "uncredible carrier", etc...


             
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
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planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 231):
Magazine writers get exactly one vote each

But of course it isn't just a magazine but ALL of the major Canadian newspapers, the national broadcaster and Canada's "Wall Street" that you pretend to dismiss.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 231):
Maybe Trudeau with put some cash in the kitty...maybe he won't

The decision will be entirely political, hence the negative commentary in ALL of Canada's major media. As has been highlighted in the press, 35,000 high paying oil industry workers have already lost their jobs so far this year in Alberta, a province with half the population of Quebec and no one is crying for a bailout.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2496
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 233):
But of course it isn't just a magazine but ALL of the major Canadian newspapers, the national broadcaster and Canada's "Wall Street" that you pretend to dismiss.


Really? ALL major papers think this way?

From your very first link:

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/busin...ailout-isnt-as-crazy-as-it-sounds/
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 642
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 233):
The decision will be entirely political, hence the negative commentary in ALL of Canada's major media. As has been highlighted in the press, 35,000 high paying oil industry workers have already lost their jobs so far this year in Alberta, a province with half the population of Quebec and no one is crying for a bailout.

If govt money alone can create high paying manufacturing Jobs, I am sure MR. Harper would have thrown a lot more money towards Ontario's manufacturing and Alberta's Oil & Gas industry.
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 230):
What is being printed in the Canadian press about BBD...

I am surprised you conveniently skipped the Quebec media.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 234):
Really? ALL major papers think this way?

Yes.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 235):
If govt money alone can create high paying manufacturing Jobs, I am sure MR. Harper would have thrown a lot more money towards Ontario's manufacturing and Alberta's Oil & Gas industry.

That is the point... government money can't sustain. Hence the editorials against the bailout.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 236):
I am surprised you conveniently skipped the Quebec media.

I didn't. Plus, if you watch the news you would have seed the protests in Quebec against the the Quebec government borrowing money to bail out BBD when the government is cutting government services because they say they have no money.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2496
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 237):
Yes.

I take it you didn't bother to read the link I posted?

Some papers cannot even agree within their own offices, never mind universal opinion across them all.

Your getting a little one eyed dude.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:32 pm

What a mess. Now that BBD is almost exclusively focused on this potentially fatal issue I'm betting that the C-series program will slowly but surely be pulled out of its tailspin. The family has to give up the special voting rights share goodie though. I'm betting on upcoming orders and decided to purchase some of their shares. I bet wrong on them twice before and am due for a payback.
 
planemaker
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 238):
I take it you didn't bother to read the link I posted?

Yes and you obviously didn't comprehend the article. It is not supportive of the bailout it just says that there have been worse bailouts.The article is actually quite damning.

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 238):
Your getting a little one eyed dude.

But of course you know better than the all major Canadian media, including the National Broadcaster, and the financial establishment in Canada.  
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
DALCE
Posts: 1922
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:25 pm

Can you please replace your off-topic discussions to a whattsapp group or something, it has exactly nothing to do with Bombardier offering their product to N. American Carriers as the thread is named.
Please stay on topic, some people are actually interested in it....
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753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Amiga500
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 240):

Yes and you obviously didn't comprehend the article. It is not supportive of the bailout it just says that there have been worse bailouts.The article is actually quite damning.

What part of it is quite damning?

(Or do I have to be looking at it through your eyes to see the eternal fire and damnation?)
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 229):
Every time I look at B6 and CSeries, I can't help but think of what a perfect fit they are. B6 would be so much better off moving all their A320 orders to the 321. And the CSeries offers a way to maintain their brand while fending off some rather damaging demands from Wall Street. The CS100 lets them increase Y+ and stay under 100 seats. And the CS500 would let them avoid the increase to densify the A320. Great aircraft to reduce Y+ (compared to the A320) and stay below 150 seats.

Just can't see B6 going for it though. It's huge to swap out a fleet. And the transition involves running three fleets at the same time......

While I agree that the Cseries and B6 would be a good fit, I don't think replacing the A320's with it is the answer. That would leave B6 with to large of seat gap even in the interim. The C-series should replace the E-190 at Jetblue. It would more compliment the A320 and provide Jetblue more flexibility with their route network as the C-series can fly any route currently in the Jetblue system.
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 237):
That is the point... government money can't sustain. Hence the editorials against the bailout.

I am sure you cannot find a single media article wasn't very happy when government poured billions of $$$ to Canadair during the development of original Ch-600. I wonder how that turned out?

You cannot generalize problems with Ontario manufacturing (lack of demand for cars due to US Recession) and Alberta Oil sands (drop in crude oil price) to Bombardier problem. In both of those cases, whole industries were in trouble and not just a single company. Aerospace manufacturing as an industry is doing very well and has good growth potential.

BBD does not need financial assistance to support their existing product line, they need support (Not necessary $$$) to market an new product which arguably the most technically superior product in it's segment.

If we learn anything from failure of of Nortel,Blackberry, Keystone, our government needs to find creative ways to make even playing fields for cdn companies when they go head to head with global leaders in their industries.

[Edited 2015-11-06 10:18:58]

[Edited 2015-11-06 11:02:00]
 
atct
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:53 pm

Don't feed the trolls.
Trikes are for kids!
 
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rikkus67
Posts: 1313
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RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 240):
But of course you know better than the all major Canadian media

One of the worst sources in Canadian media...is the various large city newspapers... all controlled by http://www.postmedia.com .
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:26 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 244):
BBD does not need financial assistance to support their existing product line, they need support (Not necessary $$$) to market an new product which arguably the most technically superior product in it's segment.

  
No $$$$'s needed to BBD for the Porter deal. Just governments cooperating together to build a nation, not just more water front condos.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 244):
If we learn anything from failure of of Nortel,Blackberry, Keystone, our government needs to find creative ways to make even playing fields for cdn companies when they go head to head with global leaders in their industries.

  

Volkwagen is facing tens of billions of dollars from punitive payouts to the EPAs, potential shaeholder class action law suits, dealers, car owners for the kind of money they may not have. Would the German government help them out for a company that deliberately committed fraud? You betya they will. They stood behind Siemens a decade ago after getting caught in bribery charges for rail contracts. The realize how important their manufacturing and technology industries are and that is why they thrive. It is a shame that Nortel and now Blackberry have faded.
Only the paranoid survive
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 229):
Somehow that myth has developed all on its own, to the point where a lot of people think its dangerous to operate in the Arctic with single engine aircraft, something our air force (and other air forces) have done for decades.

What single-engine jets have the RCAF ever operated on a regular basis in the Arctic region? None that I can think of. The F-86 Sabre and T-33 trainer weren't operated in that area, and the Avro CF-100 interceptor had two engines.

The only single-engine aircraft the RCAF used in the Arctic, unless I'm overlooking something, were bush planes like the DHC-2 Beaver and DHC-3 Otter like dozens of other operators in that area. There's a big difference between a military jet and a STOL aircraft specifically designed for operations in areas like the Arctic and with the ability to land almost anywhere on land, ice, snow and water.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:18 am

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 246):
One of the worst sources in Canadian media...is the various large city newspapers... all controlled by http://www.postmedia.com .

But it is all Canadian media, not just Postmedia. Negative national Canadian media coverage spans all political/economic ideologies... The CBC, The Toronto Star (highest circulation in Canada), The Globe & Mail (highest national circulation), etc. as this article summarizes: It Seems That Canada No Longer Likes Bombardier, Inc.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 244):
(Not necessary $$$)

Not necessary $$$? Really? Explain why the Quebec government is cutting provincial spending yet borrows $1billion to give to BBD... and then calls the Federal Government to pressure them to give another $1 billion to BBD. Not to mention the additional $1-2 billion that financial analysts calculate are required even with the bailouts.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 244):
If we learn anything from failure of of Nortel, Blackberry, Keystone, our government needs to find creative ways to make even playing fields for cdn companies when they go head to head with global leaders in their industries.

There is nothing to learn. What "creative ways" could the government "make even the playing field" for Blackberry? In addition to the fact that Blackberry had lousy management... it was a pipsqueak compared to the competition. (BTW, to show relative scale, Apple has over $200 billion cash on hand.) And Nortel failed because of lousy management, plain and simple! There is nothing that the government could do. And Keystone? There is nothing "creative" about Keystone... just a simple NO from Obama.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 247):
Just governments cooperating together to build a nation

Canada, a G7 country, needs nation building.      

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 247):
Volkwagen is facing tens of billions of dollars from punitive payouts to the EPAs, potential shaeholder class action law suits, dealers, car owners for the kind of money they may not have. Would the German government help them out for a company that deliberately committed fraud? You betya they will. They stood behind Siemens a decade ago after getting caught in bribery charges for rail contracts. The realize how important their manufacturing and technology industries are and that is why they thrive. It is a shame that Nortel and now Blackberry have faded.

Volkswagen does not need a bailout. Not only does it have the largest domestic market share but is the world's largest car manufacturer. Siemens is Europe's largest engineering firm that didn't need a bailout. In comparison, the CSeries doesn't even represent a rounding error in Canada's GDP and is competing against three larger commercial aircraft manufacturers, two of them behemoths. There are zero parallels.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein

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