JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:03 pm

Wah, wah, wah....booo hooo...Trudeau might help out BBD...stand by for the zombie apocalypse. Why not start a thread on those greedy Quebeckers stealing your hard earned money? Oh wait...your flag doesn't even say Canada. It's not even your money.


In that case, thanks for the outrage on our behalf. You really must have something else to complain about than Bombardier...but maybe not. That makes the outrage about everything Bombardier even more hilarious.


As an actual tax paying Canadian, and an Albertan, I have a pretty good idea the amount of assistance the Albertan oil patch has gotten over the 2 decades I've been working in it...and it's a lot. It has helped keep me employed from time to time.


Regardless, I really can't see how potential government assistance to Bombardier relates to, "Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers".
What the...?
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:35 pm

I think if Canada had many large equipment manufacturers based here it would be clear that taxpayers backing it up financially wouldn't make sense. However, in an increasingly global economy what is the point of trade if you aren't making anything to trade. We can't have an economy where our only job is to work for a foreign company and take our resources to the port for export.

The number of headquarters in Canada is falling. Companies from outside Canada are buying profitable companies to shutter them, or move decision making and creative jobs out. We don't have a Canadian equivalent to Ford, Volvo, BMW, Geely, Tata, Honda, etc other than Bombardier. What are our mechanical engineers going to work on? It may really be a case of choosing corporate welfare to find the CSeries with an end in sight versus 18000 employees x $20000 per yr = $360M/yr welfare with no end in sight, reduced economic spinoffs, reduced exports, and loosing the income taxes if all those people.
 
diverted
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 251):
I think if Canada had many large equipment manufacturers based here it would be clear that taxpayers backing it up financially wouldn't make sense. However, in an increasingly global economy what is the point of trade if you aren't making anything to trade. We can't have an economy where our only job is to work for a foreign company and take our resources to the port for export.

The number of headquarters in Canada is falling. Companies from outside Canada are buying profitable companies to shutter them, or move decision making and creative jobs out. We don't have a Canadian equivalent to Ford, Volvo, BMW, Geely, Tata, Honda, etc other than Bombardier. What are our mechanical engineers going to work on? It may really be a case of choosing corporate welfare to find the CSeries with an end in sight versus 18000 employees x $20000 per yr = $360M/yr welfare with no end in sight, reduced economic spinoffs, reduced exports, and loosing the income taxes if all those people.

And that's totally acceptable. I think the main issue that most people have (myself included) is the lack of consequences for the BBD family. IMHO if they run a company nearly into the ground time and again, as part of a bailout package, it should be stipulated that they give up the dual class voting structure which results in them having majority control. Or, here's a novel idea, rather than going to the government with your hands open again, offer to fund things out of your own pocket, and ask if the government will provide loan guarantees to fund any shortfalls. The "family" is stupid amounts of weatlhy, their guest houses are nicer than my entire neighbourhood, so why would I support my tax dollars going to fix their screw up?
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 250):
Wah, wah, wah....booo hooo.

How erudite.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 250):
In that case, thanks for the outrage on our behalf.

Pointing out what the Canadian media is saying is not outrage... just correcting the misconceptions people have. For example, over the years you have been posting that BBD had the financial heft to compete against A & B which has been proven incorrect.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 250):
As an actual tax paying Canadian, and an Albertan, I have a pretty good idea the amount of assistance the Albertan oil patch has gotten over the 2 decades I've been working in it...and it's a lot.

Oh, so that is why there is an Albertan independence movement protesting the over $250 billion that the Federal government has sucked out of Alberta in net equalization payments. It is ironic that you mention Trudeau in your post... it was his father's NEP that ignited Albertan alienation that led to the Reform, then Alliance then CPC and the outgoing Prime Minister.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 250):
Regardless, I really can't see how potential government assistance to Bombardier relates to, "Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers".

It is very relevant... without government bailout BBD won't be able to build the CSeries to supply N. American Carriers. On the other hand, your post 227 definitely isn't relevant. Hypocrisy has taken the place of dialogue.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 251):
However, in an increasingly global economy what is the point of trade if you aren't making anything to trade. We can't have an economy where our only job is to work for a foreign company and take our resources to the port for export.

To make something to trade you need a competitive advantage, be it a large domestic market, cheaper labour, favourable exchange rate, etc, etc. There just isn't a large enough population/domestic market in Canada, nor is labour cheap enough for companies to further process resources. That is why most of BBD's aerospace components are manufactured outside of Canada.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 251):
What are our mechanical engineers going to work on? It may really be a case of choosing corporate welfare to find the CSeries with an end in sight versus 18000 employees x $20000 per yr = $360M/yr welfare with no end in sight, reduced economic spinoffs, reduced exports, and loosing the income taxes if all those people.

The 18,000 figure you mention is total BBD employees in Quebec (BTW, total BBD employment is 74,000). Only ~3,500 are attached to the CSeries, and many will be laid off once the program shifts from certification to steady production). Compare that to +35,000 Albertan oil patch workers that have lost their jobs thus far this year. If there is going to be Federal bailouts, from an economic (not political) bail out policy consideration, it would be far less risky to "invest" federal dollars in upstream oil patch sectors, for example.

Quoting diverted (Reply 252):
I think the main issue that most people have (myself included) is the lack of consequences for the BBD family. IMHO if they run a company nearly into the ground time and again, as part of a bailout package, it should be stipulated that they give up the dual class voting structure which results in them having majority control. Or, here's a novel idea, rather than going to the government with your hands open again, offer to fund things out of your own pocket, and ask if the government will provide loan guarantees to fund any shortfalls. The "family" is stupid amounts of weatlhy, their guest houses are nicer than my entire neighbourhood, so why would I support my tax dollars going to fix their screw up?

As debate in Quebec's National Assembly pointed out, Quebec's "investment" isn't in BBD but a separate CSeries entity. The family's plan to hive off the CSeries into a separate entity is so that it doesn't bankrupt the rest of the company but leaves taxpayers holding the bag.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18666
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Bombardier Offers CSeries To N. American Carriers

Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:54 am

This thread has gone off topic.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos