Does Any One Airline Operate RTW?

Max Q · Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 am

Is there anyone that does this anymore ?

Web500sjc · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:12 am

No passenger airlines, last one would have been NZ AKL-LAX-LHR-HKG-AKL, but they dropped LHR-HKG.

FedEx does do MEM-CDG-CUN-ANC-MEM.

So there are airiness operating RTW just, not passenger.

IADCA · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:19 am

I'm not aware of any that still do the classic RTW multi-stop routings, but for the sake of pedantry, there are a number of polar routes like HKG-JFK-HKG that typically fly east on both legs, thus circumnavigating the earth (albeit mostly over polar latitudes and therefore compressed longitudes).

Thomaas · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:21 am

I'm pretty sure SQ is the closest thing left with SIN-DME-IAH/LAX-HKG-SIN. It isn't direct round the world per-say but LAX-IAH is probably the shortest gap any airline would have for RTW.

Viscount724 · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:30 am

Carriers that have operated RTW at one time or other.

Pan Am
TWA
BOAC/British Airways
Qantas
JAL
Air France
Air New Zealand
Singapore Airlines (when they operated nonstop EWR-SIN, ignoring the short gap between JFK and EWR)

I think UTA also did it briefly after they obtained rights LAX/SFO-CDG, continuing from PPT, not long before they merged with AF.

I don't count the few other European carriers that operated the original so-called Polar route between Europe and Japan via ANC and then back the long way around via Asia, India, Middle East etc.

A few carriers came fairly close to operating RTW but didn't quite make it. Two that come to mind:

NW when they flew to BOM via AMS and to SIN via the Pacific. Gap BOM-SIN 2,116 nm. If not mistaken, NW also briefly served KUL which would be a slightly shorter BOM-KUL gap of 1,956 nm.

VARIG when they flew to HKG via JNB and BKK, and to NRT via LAX. Gap HKG-NRT 1,600 nm.

[Edited 2015-10-11 19:40:33]

[Edited 2015-10-11 19:46:53]

[Edited 2015-10-11 19:49:01]

flyDTW1992 · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:42 am

Also on the cargo side: Kalitta will do DHL runs that go CVG-LEJ-BAH-HKG-ANC-CVG routinely.

civetfive · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:59 am

UA1 and UA2 were true RTW flights as well. LAX-HKG-DEL-LHR-IAD-LAX and reverse.

Max Q · Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:49 am

So what passenger airline comes closest today ?

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 1):
FedEx does do MEM-CDG-CUN-ANC-MEM.

Paris to Cancun ?

Don't think that's what you meant to say.

simairlinenet · Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 7):
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 1):
FedEx does do MEM-CDG-CUN-ANC-MEM.
Paris to Cancun ?
Don't think that's what you meant to say.

CAN was probably intended.

TC957 · Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:31 pm

I bet EK would love to re-instate a true RTW service. With full traffic rights on each sector.
Who knows, it might happen one day. It would a long way to their dream of world air travel domination.

blueflyer · Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:28 pm

It's not at all unusual on the cargo side, usually on East-bound routes only though.

Besides Kalitta as previously mentioned, Southern too operates RTW for DHL (CVG-BAH-HKG-CVG with an occasional stop in ANC). Off the top of my mind, Asiana and Singapore operate RTW scheduled cargo flights stopping in North America, Europe and Central Asia or India.

Atlas' fleet circles the globe several times a week, using a combination of scheduled and unscheduled charters, ACMI flights and positioning flights.

eielef · Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:34 pm

Aeroflot has been thinking on an extra flight to LAX weekly via VVO. The route will be SVO-VVO-LAX-SVO, and the following week SVO-LAX-VVO-SVO. That would be a real RTW route, but going to LAX via VVO means at least 17 hours on air. I wouldn't mind, and it will be my first time on SU's 777s!

airtran737 · Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:10 pm

I'm pretty sure Southern Air Does CVG-BAH-HKG-LAX-LEJ

blueflyer · Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 12):
I'm pretty sure Southern Air Does CVG-BAH-HKG-LAX-LEJ

Actually, Southern has two RTW routings for DHL (forgot one).
275/6 is CVG-BAH-HKG-CVG.
97/8 is HKG-LAX-LEJ-HKG.

[Edited 2015-10-12 14:47:49]

Viscount724 · Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 7):
So what passenger airline comes closest today ?

As mentioned in Reply 3, probably SQ with a 1,198 nm gap IAH-LAX.

rnav2dlrey · Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting civetfive (Reply 6):
UA1 and UA2 were true RTW flights as well. LAX-HKG-DEL-LHR-IAD-LAX and reverse.

JFK was in the routing instead of IAD for a while (late 90s). flew it on a 767. can't believe i'll be taking my last UA flight from JFK in less than two weeks.

777way · Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:45 am

Atlas/Etihad Cargo 748 currently flies AUH-HKG/ICN-ANC-ORD/IAH-MIA-UIO-VCP-AMS-AUH or something along that. There might be a tech stop somewhere in the Caribbean as well to AMS, previously route also had Frankfurt and Lima.

Zkpilot · Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting civetfive (Reply 6):
UA1 and UA2 were true RTW flights as well. LAX-HKG-DEL-LHR-IAD-LAX and reverse.

Went around but wasn't considered a proper RTW as didn't cross the equator.

kdonohue · Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:34 pm

While not a single airline, the "Virgin Family" of airlines could have taken you around the world until Virgin Atlantic broke the SYD-HKG sector.

cathay747 · Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
Went around but wasn't considered a proper RTW as didn't cross the equator.

Since when does crossing/not crossing the Equator have anything
to do with it not being a RTW routing, or it being so???

As long as you circumnavigate the globe by crossing both the
Atlantic & Pacific in the same continuous direction, it is RTW.
JFK-HKG-LHR-JFK is most certainly RTW.

Zkpilot · Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:58 am

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 19):
Since when does crossing/not crossing the Equator have anything
to do with it not being a RTW routing, or it being so???

As long as you circumnavigate the globe by crossing both the
Atlantic & Pacific in the same continuous direction, it is RTW.
JFK-HKG-LHR-JFK is most certainly RTW.

HEL-HEL with a quick trip around the North Pole would be RTW in that case...

cathay747 · Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 20):
HEL-HEL with a quick trip around the North Pole would be RTW in that case...

Yes, it technically would be even though you're not crossing the
Pacific, and probably not even the Atlantic really. But let's not
split hairs here, shall we? I work in global corp. travel management
and have for the past 33 years; before that I grew up in an airline
family...I know what a RTW is, have booked innumerable such trips,
and any airline tariff department will tell you the same thing...crossing
the equator has nothing to do with it. I don't know where you're getting
this from.

timz · Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:09 pm

Maybe FAI requires across the equator for an official RTW record (along with Tropic-of-Cancer distance maybe?) But most likely the original question wasn't limited to that definition.

fun2fly · Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:36 am

How about CX? HKG YVR JFK HKG. Not sure if the YVR leg still exists or not.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:27 am

I think FedEx also does MEM-KIX-HKG-DXB-CDG-MEM. I have a pilot friend who does this regularly with the 77W.

kdonohue · Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:48 am

fun2fly, yes CX does a circle route with its HKG-YVR-JFK-HKG route; however it really covers half of the world. For a RTW I'd be looking for it to hit another continent, such as Europe or Africa.

delimit · Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
Went around but wasn't considered a proper RTW as didn't cross the equator.

UA1 and UA2 were homages to PA 1 and PA 2, which wouldn't count by your definition, despite essentially defining the genre. Funnily, they never fully connected.

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html

[Edited 2015-10-14 21:03:11]

eielef · Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting delimit (Reply 26):

I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft? Or was it changing aircraft on X airport, call it LHR or HKG. Maybe it would be on a 747 up to HKG, and then in 727 for a long while up to getting on another 747 in maybe LHR or FRA.

blueflyer · Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:04 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft?

Can't speak to Pan Am, but in United's case it definitively was not the same aircraft. Some segments were operated by a 747, others a 767.

Max Q · Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft? Or was it changing aircraft on X airport, call it LHR or HKG. Maybe it would be on a 747 up to HKG, and then in 727 for a long while up to getting on another 747 in maybe LHR or FRA.

I flew on PA1 and 2 many times as a youngster and it was a 747 all the way around the world, east and westbound.

Those were the days.

CARST · Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:57 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 29):
I flew on PA1 and 2 many times as a youngster and it was a 747 all the way around the world, east and westbound.

But the main reason was that there basicly was no other plane with that range back then. Most 747s were bought for range in the early decades.

Freshside3 · Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 11):
Aeroflot has been thinking on an extra flight to LAX weekly via VVO. The route will be SVO-VVO-LAX-SVO, and the following week SVO-LAX-VVO-SVO. That would be a real RTW route, but going to LAX via VVO means at least 17 hours on air. I wouldn't mind, and it will be my first time on SU's 777s!

Would be the first-ever nonstop from the USA to VVO??

delimit · Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft? Or was it changing aircraft on X airport, call it LHR or HKG. Maybe it would be on a 747 up to HKG, and then in 727 for a long while up to getting on another 747 in maybe LHR or FRA.

That's Pan Am. Same plane all the way. UA performed a swap in Hong Kong I believe.

qfvhoqa · Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting kdonohue (Reply 18):
While not a single airline, the "Virgin Family" of airlines could have taken you around the world until Virgin Atlantic broke the SYD-HKG sector.

You almost can now. Just a gap between DXB & AUH: VA LAX-SYD-AUH, VS DXB-LHR-LAX. But it's a bit of a stretch since Virgin Group owns so little of VA.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
NW when they flew to BOM via AMS and to SIN via the Pacific. Gap BOM-SIN 2,116 nm

In that case, UA comes just as close with BOM-EWR-HKG-SIN. DL got closer with BOM-AMS-DTW-NRT-BKK as BKK is closer to BOM.

cathay747 · Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 32):
Same plane all the way. UA performed a swap in Hong Kong I believe.

Correct, and also @ LHR & SFO IIRC...I think that JFK-LHR was possibly
a 741 or 742, then LHR-DEL-HKG was a 763ER, HKG-SFO was for sure
a 744, and then SFO-JFK prob. a 762. Anyone remember for certain?

Quoting delimit (Reply 26):
Funnily, they never fully connected.

Quite true, since PA of course couldn't carry domestic traffic back then,
with the exception of West Coast to/from HNL. But even with this oddity,
it of course never stopped PA from marketing Round-the-World service
even though you technically couldn't do it. But as the creator of this and
the RTW fares, they came up with the rule (which we still have today) that
you don't have to return to your point of origin as long as you return to
your COUNTRY of origin, and don't return to a point further than your point
of origin. Example: origin JFK return LAX was/is allowed; origin DEN return
ORD not allowed (which with PA would have involved an interline partner
but today could be done on one airline).

kdonohue · Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:49 pm

qfvhoca, you're right the gap is quite close now. A few years back I proposed a RTW story on Virgin that would have included Virgin America, Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic, with a SEA-LAX-SYD-HKG-LHR-YVR routing, but the Virgin Atlantic's press office was so difficult to work with and uncooperative, despite initially expressing interest in the project.

timz · Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:51 am

Far as we can tell from the timetable, PA's one-aircraft-all-the-way flight from SFO to NY started when the 707 took over.

Far as we can tell, UA did fly a 744 all the way, LAX to LAX, in 2001. The switch 744 to 763 was in the 1990s.

2travel2know2 · Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:27 am

Lets see if when EK starts DXB-PTY, EK feels like flying a PTY-AKL tag-on, non-stop or via PPT.

Viscount724 · Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 23):
How about CX? HKG YVR JFK HKG. Not sure if the YVR leg still exists or not.

That's not within the usual interpretation of round-the-world. It's officially considered transpacific in both directions regardless what routing the nonstop flight takes.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):
Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft?

Can't speak to Pan Am, but in United's case it definitively was not the same aircraft. Some segments were operated by a 747, others a 767.

Except maybe in the very early days, Pan Am normally didn't use the same aircraft all the way. Often 2 or 3 aircraft changes en route but same flight number.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 29):
Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft? Or was it changing aircraft on X airport, call it LHR or HKG. Maybe it would be on a 747 up to HKG, and then in 727 for a long while up to getting on another 747 in maybe LHR or FRA.

I flew on PA1 and 2 many times as a youngster and it was a 747 all the way around the world, east and westbound.

Same aircraft type, not necessarily the same aircraft all the way.

Also have to keep in mind that for many years Pan Am's RTW route had a gap between SFO and NYC since they had no domestic traffic rights. It was filled in later years. In the 1960s/70s you could also do it all the way on Pan Am using their direct LAX/SFO-LHR flights, but not if you wanted to use flights 1 and 2 all the way.

flyingalex · Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 31):
Would be the first-ever nonstop from the USA to VVO??

From the continental US, probably yes. But I'm almost certain that VVO has had service from Alaska before. Probably ANC, and probably AS. Possibly also a Russian carrier at some point.

[Edited 2015-10-16 13:51:07]

flyingalex · Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 3):
I'm pretty sure SQ is the closest thing left with SIN-DME-IAH/LAX-HKG-SIN. It isn't direct round the world per-say but LAX-IAH is probably the shortest gap any airline would have for RTW.

That's actually SIN-DME-IAH/LAX-NRT-SIN. The flight via HKG you're thinking of is SFO-HKG-SIN

N1120A · Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Carriers that have operated RTW at one time or other.

Pan Am
TWA
BOAC/British Airways
Qantas
JAL
Air France
Air New Zealand
Singapore Airlines (when they operated nonstop EWR-SIN, ignoring the short gap between JFK and EWR)

United too.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
Went around but wasn't considered a proper RTW as didn't cross the equator.

That is a giant who cares.

Quoting eielef (Reply 27):
I'm not sure if the link posted previously belongs to PA1 or to UA1, but in any case, were this flights made all on the same aircraft?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):
Can't speak to Pan Am, but in United's case it definitively was not the same aircraft. Some segments were operated by a 747, others a 767.

At the end, it was 1 747 the whole way with United.

777way · Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:01 am

Why SIN-EWR considered RTW? same for touching every continent, why? RTW just means round the globe.

Max Q · Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Same aircraft type, not necessarily the same aircraft all the way.

I went most of the way around the world on PA1 and 2 and we never changed aircraft once.

RyanairGuru · Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 19):

Zkpilot is spot on, offially speaking a route must cross the equator to be considered around the world in the traditional sense. Of course conventional usage disregards that.

eielef · Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:19 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
From the continental US, probably yes. But I'm almost certain that VVO has had service from Alaska before. Probably ANC, and probably AS. Possibly also a Russian carrier at some point.

Actually there are seasonal flights each year, but route varies.This summer it were only 12 flights operated by Yakutia on B738. Route was PKC-ANC, on saturdays (i'm not sure when arrived/left ANC) returning just on time for connecting with Aeroflot flight to SVO.
I think PKC is a rather small destination, but maybe VVO-ANC is too long for a B738 (PKC-ANC is already 4h20).
VVO or KHV are the biggest cities in Eastern Russia, and specially VVO has an amazing airport (completely renewed in 2012).
For that I think an A333 on the route SVO-VVO-LAX-SVO would be amazing, and return would be SVO-LAX-VVO-SVO. There are many SU crews based in VVO, so is not a big problem.

Cheers!
Eielef @MOW

timz · Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
offially speaking a route must cross the equator to be considered around the world in the traditional sense.

By "officially" you mean "by FAI". Suspect that's true, tho don't know where to confirm it.

No such thing as a "traditional sense" of RTW. When the two Douglas World Cruisers flew around the world in 1924, did they cross the equator? Maybe they did, but I suspect not. Hughes didn't cross it in 1938, did he? Nor did Odom in 1947? But maybe the B-50 did in 1949 and the B-52 in 1957.

2travel2know2 · Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:31 pm

If the World is a globe, flying only in the northern hemisphere around it doesn't qualify as flying around the globe.
The closest distance flown to the distance of the Equator then that'd qualify as flying around the world.
The only airline which sort of did something like that was AF when it flew LIM-PPT-NRT joining its South American and Asian networks.

Viscount724 · Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 47):
The closest distance flown to the distance of the Equator then that'd qualify as flying around the world.
The only airline which sort of did something like that was AF when it flew LIM-PPT-NRT joining its South American and Asian networks

And NZ (AKL-LAX-LHR-HKG-AKL). Also BOAC/BA (LHR-JFK-LAX/SFO-HNL-NAN-SYD and back to Europe via Asia. And UTA for a while before they merged with AF (CDG-SFO/LAX-PPT and back via Asia). All those routings crossed the equator twice.

2travel2know2 · Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
And NZ (AKL-LAX-LHR-HKG-AKL). Also BOAC/BA (LHR-JFK-LAX/SFO-HNL-NAN-SYD and back to Europe via Asia. And UTA for a while before they merged with AF (CDG-SFO/LAX-PPT and back via Asia). All those routings crossed the equator twice.

Did forget about those. The latest was NZ but seems loads on HKG-LHR and LHR slots took a tool on that route.

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