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Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 47):
Hah! good one

Just for a change - is there anything including content you can share? No, good.
 
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maartent
Posts: 47
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 50):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 46):
You really should read the report.

I started but it's just too much for an afternoon. So even if they shared information about fragments and the warhead - why are they claiming other results later on?

So, you havn´t read the report, but already question the outcome, and not only that, pose a question that goes way beyond the scope of this investigation. Just to undermine the integrity of the DSB ?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 50):

You really, really should read the report before digging yourself into an ever deeper hole.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting aw70 (Reply 48):
wouldn't Russia rolling over and admitting blame for the MH17 fiasco make it harder to sustain said sanctions?

possibly but the same goes for the rebels and Ukraine.

You already mentioned what Russia would look like.

2) Rebels = want to be accepted by other states as a sovereign state -> not interested in such actions but would want to hide such mistake of course

3) Ukraine = wouldn't admit anything either + the West can't say anything like that, too as that would lead to some uncomfortable questions regarding the support of such country.

So just because something is less likely doesn't mean it's not actually the case. All parties are interested in blaming each other and there aren't any confirmed information regarding who did it. (...unless somebody comes up with a windy super secret CNN source...)

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 49):
This report did not clarify the launch location, it was not the DSB responsibility.

Some people seem to know that the exact squaremeter it was launched from was actually in rebel-held area.
 
Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting maartent (Reply 52):
Just to undermine the integrity of the DSB ?

I'm not undermining the DSB just confused why they would claim something later on after they shared their stuff.
 
diverted
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:53 pm

I don't have anything to add to this thread aside from how seeing aircraft pieces put back together like that makes it hit home. Seeing those twisted cockpit seats especially. Same feelings when I see TWA800 pics.
 
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 45):
I just picked the first article that contains the important quotes of Mr Juncker confirming so.

Just because some unelected, unaccountable EU bureacrat thinks we should appease Putin at all cost doesn't mean it's a fact or a policy.
 
76er
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:01 pm

DSB Chairman Joustra provided journalists with some more tidbits of information during the day.

- The missile *was* fired from rebel held territory. Putting this directly into the final report was deemed politically too sensitive.

- During the 3 series of meetings in The Hague a representative of Almaz-Altay was part of the Russian delegation. At the second one this representative said that the type op shrapnell found could only originate from a 9N314M. He changed his mind at the last series of meetings. Joustra hinted at engineers being overruled by politicians in this matter.

- Joustra was asked about the satellite images US Secretary of State Kerry referred to shortly after the incident. He replied he has seen those images but refused to say anything about it. State secret. Pity.

[Edited 2015-10-13 13:05:50]
 
AIRWALK
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 51):
Just for a change - is there anything including content you can share? No, good.

What? Are you saying I shouldn't be talking about content from the report on a thread about the report?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 54):
Some people seem to know that the exact squaremeter it was launched from was actually in rebel-held area.

Then they haven't read the report either if that's their source.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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PW100
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 34):
Yep... how well did Russia's occupation in Afghanistan turn out? And how well do you expect their efforts to prop up Syria's dictatorship to do?

I'm sure that he/she does not need to be reminded and is well aware. As also I'm sure that you completely missed the point that was being made . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 58):
DSB Chairman Joustra provided journalists with some more tidbits of information during the day.

Thanks for those information.

Quoting 76er (Reply 58):
He replied he has seen those images but refused to say anything about it. State secret. Pity.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 57):
we should appease Putin

Who is we? Without wanting to sound like an arrogant German - there are 10,5mio Czechs and 81mio Germans out of some 507mio EUans...Germany NEEDS Russia as a trading partner. (Everybody wants money for 'development' so somebody gotta earn it first) - at some point national interests should have priority over political aspects what-so-ever. Punishing Putin doesn't change anything - you might pretend to be the stronger one but the trade is gone anyways.
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 59):
What? Are you saying I shouldn't be talking about content from the report on a thread about the report?

Sorry for that one - it was regarding your first 'Hah good one' comment. Answered before your second one was published.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6309
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 61):
Without wanting to sound like an arrogant German

No problem. Whenever I want to listen to arrogant German there is always comrade Martin Schulz to tune-in to. He always makes me regret my "yes" vote in the referendum on EU accession.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 61):
Germany NEEDS Russia as a trading partner.

When in reality it is the other way around.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 61):
Punishing Putin doesn't change anything - you might pretend to be the stronger one but the trade is gone anyways.

So, let's crawl with him in bed...?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 61):
at some point national interests should have priority over political aspects what-so-ever

Precisely. It's not in the national interest of anyone, those being once under Russian occupation the least and that includes Germany, to allow Kremlin call the shots in Europe again and get away with the invasion od Ukraine. Even if it means selling a little bit less for a while.
 
AR385
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 40):
Buk, still trot out the air to air missile from a Ukrainian fighter BS line?

The report says the Russians accept the conclusions, of where the missile was launched. They just have "reservations" about the type of Buk and the EXACT location of the area of the launch.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
I didn't say they refused to but how is it possible that such investigation is being made without specialists coming from both ends? (Boeing and Almaz-Antey)

Please read the report

Russians participated in the investigation. And Almaz -Antey provided a lot of information.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Any source for that? I watched the livestream on BBC and nobody said anything about that. Just that the left side of the plane was hit.

Please read the report

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Sure that but nobody cared about the West doing the same stuff

They did. Do you reamember the Iran AIr Disaster? There was a whole lot of outrage, justifiably so all over the world. The US did behave for a while exactly like the Russians are behaving. So, does that make it justifiable for Putin to do the same?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
you might not get that I'm neither pro-Russian nor pro-US

Wow. Don´t even try to keep on with that jewel of passive-agresiveness. Nobody believes that at this point, except maybe only for you. The nonsensical things you keep writing, your refusal to read the report alongside baseless accusations you keep making would have fooled me.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
People may like it or not but there is an American press campaign running to let every action Russia does look like an anti-Western move to strenghten the relation to Europe again - and local media copy that unisono.

Say, so you are still " neither pro-Russian nor pro-US"? And Russia is doing exactly the same.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Peter Scholl-Latour once said the biggest mistake the US made during the invasion of Afghanistan was to think that everybody not voting for Russia is automatically a friend of the US.

The US had a legitmate reason for invading Afghanistan. Not so much the USSR.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 50):
I started but it's just too much for an afternoon.

Then, please do not keep wasting bandwitdth, and writing crap. Read the report instead. Then, you can come back and write serious things. You have a responsibility to do so if you want to keep participating in this thread. When there is a final, authoritative source for a discussion to be based on, not reading it on purpose, and ignoring it when you plaster your rants here, is plain infantile, and shows a devil may care attitude towards your fellow posters. You should be ashamed, and not wonder why they may think about you as a Kremlinbot.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 50):
I started but it's just too much for an afternoon.


[Edited 2015-10-13 14:15:49]
 
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MrHMSH
Posts: 2789
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Any source for that? I watched the livestream on BBC and nobody said anything about that. Just that the left side of the plane was hit.

I don't have a linkable source, but it was. We'd know if it wasn't.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Sure that but nobody cared about the West doing the same stuff

People do care, that's why there is mistrust. But at the same time, we do know they did it, they usually admit to it. The rights and wrongs are a completely different area, but knowing 'who dunnit' is a start.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
now Russia's being back on the stage everybody starts caring about their faults...

That's because their faults are plentisome. Well, 'they' being the govt more than the people. But covering up something like this, denying responsibility/blaming others and having a troll army online are all worrying.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
you might not get that I'm neither pro-Russian nor pro-US

I don't get that vibe.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
I'm simply against the Putin/Russia-bashing that a lot of guys practice in here. It doesn't require any thinking to notice that the US is strictly against a well connected European-Russian relation as it would make them more independent. People may like it or not but there is an American press campaign running to let every action Russia does look like an anti-Western move to strenghten the relation to Europe again - and local media copy that unisono.

I can believe that... but it's not really relevant. I'm interested in knowing who shot the plane down, and then blame can be apportioned. For the record, I would blame Ukrainian and Aviation authorities for being incompetent/not aware enough/not communicating, but that's also for another day.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 44):
It would indeed. However, given the damage the whole sanctions thing has caused, one cannot but wonder whether just owning up would not have been the far cheaper option (provided it was them in the first place, of course).

It may well have been. But Putin would rather lose money than publically admit such weakness.
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:27 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
The US had a legitmate reason for invading Afghanistan. Not so much the USSR

It's not about the invasion more a prove that somebody can be neither pro-US nor pro-Russian.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
You should be ashamed, and not wonder why they may think about you as a Kremlinbot.

Just because you're not capable of accepting other's opinions or understanding them doesn't justify bashing like that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
Russians participated in the investigation. And Almaz -Antey provided a lot of information.

Yes and they still have a different conclusion. (not suprising but still exisisting)

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
They did. Do you reamember the Iran AIr Disaster? There was a whole lot of outrage, justifiably so all over the world. The US did behave for a while exactly like the Russians are behaving. So, does that make it justifiable for Putin to do the same?

No - Two wrongs do not make a right but the only reason somebody cares now is because Russia is the one. And it's not about admitting something - nobody punished the West or US for anything so why should they do it against Russia?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
Say, so you are still " neither pro-Russian nor pro-US"? And Russia is doing exactly the same.

I'm just saying it exists not that I trust any of them. You seem to know more than what I wrote.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
your refusal to read the report

I'm not refusing - I'm just not done yet. Quite a suprise you made it through this monster of report during a single afternoon...

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
please do not keep wasting bandwitdth

Then maybe you should invest a few more bucks for your connection quality...

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
Nobody believes that at this point, except maybe only for you

You missed the point,...again. I don't care if you believe my opinion - I'm just sharing it to put in some other thoughts thatn the usual 'high quality reporting'

1) something happend
2) we don't like Russia => they're the one to blame (or 'their' rebels) (not caring about any other possible way)
3) investigation done
4) somebody not sharing the same idea = kremlinbot

Quoting AR385 (Reply 64):
The nonsensical things you keep writing

Then tell me why is the US hiding their HQ images? 'State secret'? A bit too easy.
 
Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 66):
That's because their faults are plentisome. Well, 'they' being the govt more than the people. But covering up something like this, denying responsibility/blaming others and having a troll army online are all worrying.

Not any worse than what the US or the EU does - punishing one and not caring about the others? Either all or none.

Well, just so you know my grandpa was in Russian prison camp for more than 5 years after he was captured. I have no reason to love Russia and hate the US. I can tell you he told me many times that those 5 years weren't fun.
 
Andriyko
Posts: 88
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 43):
Sure that but nobody cared about the West doing the same stuff - now Russia's being back on the stage everybody starts caring about their faults... you might not get that I'm neither pro-Russian nor pro-US - I'm simply against the Putin/Russia-bashing that a lot of guys practice in here. It doesn't require any thinking to notice that the US is strictly against a well connected European-Russian relation as it would make them more independent. People may like it or not but there is an American press campaign running to let every action Russia does look like an anti-Western move to strenghten the relation to Europe again - and local media copy that unisono.

It comforts me so much to think that my country was attacked, a part of its territory annexed and another part destabilized and effectively occupied by Russian troops just because Russia thought that it could do whatever it wants because some one else did something bad in the past. I am now at peace with the Russian aggression. Poor me - I thought it was wrong to attack other countries, especially the ones that your president claims to be a brotherly nation, but it appears that it's OK. I thought Russia would be annexing a U.S. territory to 'punish' it for past sins, but it appears that Russia is attacking Ukraine to punish the USA. Oh, how relieved I am that it is all for the greater good.. Russia needs to be back on the stage and the only way to do that is to attack a much weaker country? I mean, who wants to assert their strength by attacking someone who can destroy you, right? You say that you are not pro-Russian? But you are throwing up the same lies and propaganda that the Russian TV is feeding its citizens. That it is not about Russia attacking Ukraine, that it is about Russia standing up to the USA and regaining (as if it ever did have it) its place in the world. Do you know how you get a place among great countries? By being great - culture, economy, quality of life... Not by attacking smaller, weaker nations who want nothing to do with you.

A 'well connected European-Russian relation'? So, the EU would really swallow the annexation of the Crimea and the invasion of some Eastern regions? Really? You don't get that the E.U. and the USA share the same values? Or that the E.U. would not swallow the fact that Russians shot down a civilian plane? Just the very fact that you say that Russia would not have annexed the Crimea had Ukraine not steered towards Europe (and the only reason we did was that their values appealed to us - nobody expected that we would be in the Club in any foreseeable future! We wanted, and still do want, to have that, to build that in our country. And the russian values did not appeal to us because we had the same crap back at home - corrupt government and no prospective of a change...the only difference is that we had the guts to tell Yanukovych to eff off rather than tolerate him for 15 years) proves that you are so biased towards Russia. The last time I checked - we are an independent country, we're not a part of Russia to ask for a permission to sign an Association agreement (not even starting membership talks! Turkey has had the same agreement with the EU for over 50 years now). You're justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine the same way putin's media do. NATO's ships could have been in the Black Sea - not Russia's business. It is our territory and we have every right to station any troops that we want there...just as much as Russia does within its own territory. But the main thing is that nobody was even going to put NATO's ships there. That piece was as manufactured as everything else churned out by the russian media to justify the aggression.

But more importantly, can you perhaps elaborate - a territory of which country exactly did the USA annex? Or, perhaps, a European country annexed a territory of its neighbour? I really can't find any examples of that. But you obviously know better. But please do let me know. I mean, you're saying that Russia is doing in Ukraine exactly what the West is doing... Has a apart of Ukraine been annexed by any other country but russia?
 
Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:55 pm

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
Do you know how you get a place among great countries? By being great - culture, economy, quality of life... Not by attacking smaller, weaker nations who want nothing to do with you.

Good speech but never happens in reality. Pure utopia.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
territory to 'punish' it for past sins, but it appears that Russia is attacking Ukraine to punish the USA

I'm sorry to say but it's not so much about Ukraine itself. Russia doesn't want the US next to their front door.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
So, the EU would really swallow the annexation of the Crimea and the invasion of some Eastern regions?

What else should they do? Punish them? You can't punish them. If somebody thinks you can get rid of Putin by putting up sanctions you're living far off reality. The EU miss-calculalted and failed but they don't accept it.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
The last time I checked - we are an independent country, we're not a part of Russia to ask for a permission to sign an Association agreement

Of course you don't - I never said anything else. But there's a difference between the right to have and what's actually possible. Just to give a comparison (totally unrealistic but a good one though) - what do you think happens if Canada would sign a brothership contract with Russia?

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
every right to station any troops that we want there

Sure you can, I still haven't said anything else. Don't know where you get that from (I'm not saying that Ukraine isn't an independent country or they don't have any rights or so - this is nothing but a lie if somebody claims so). I'm just saying that by doing so Ukraine has to expect more reactions by Russia. It's not about my opinion or anything I'd like what-so-ever - this is reality.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
a territory of which country exactly did the USA annex?

Please check the locations of their army bases. It might be called differently but it's not much different. (you could start with Diego Garcia for example)
 
Andriyko
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:12 pm

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:10 am

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 70):
what do you think happens if Canada would sign a brothership contract with Russia?

Who on Earth would want it but a Syrian or Belorussian dictatorships? That's the reality...

What has Russia achieved by its aggression? Just because we wanted the European values does not mean that we wanted to severe our ties with Russia. We only posed a threat to putin's regime, not Russia (and we do want all the best for Russians, first of all, to get of the fascist that governs them...) - he did not want an example that a 'brotherly' nation could have been for Russians, a country that can say 'basta' to its president, a country where we don't exist for the president but where the president exists for us. That is the sad reality as well. Now Russia has a country of 48 million that hates it for the aggression. Well done!

And, in all honesty, do you really really think that the US would invade Canada had it - in the drunken state of mind - chosen to forge a closer relationship with Russia (it still evades me why...)?

Anyway, this thread is about something else. And I would not accept that Russia can do whatever it wants for whatever reasons. especially, for the made up reasons of NATO threatening Russia. the only reason putin does not want the West anywhere near his country is because he does want for Russians to see that dictatorship is not the only way. Just look at he situation in reverse - what if your former or current homeland were invaded just because of a sick rules of another country? Would you accept that? Would you defend that?
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
Who on Earth would want it but a Syrian or Belorussian dictatorships? That's the reality...

Half of European wouldn't mind Putin's "dictatorship". And overall - it's time to stop using these emotional cliches like "dictatorship", "regime" and the likes - your favorite West has eroded, and in Russia it's not all black. Well over a million of your fellow Ukrainians who are there can confirm that. And how is your regime better? "Dictatorships" at least don't bomb their own cities and don't support such actions of others.


Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
What has Russia achieved by its aggression? Just because we wanted the European values does not mean that we wanted to severe our ties with Russia.

The "aggression" you are talking is solely in your head - it's for your leadership to justify their incompetence and greed. The "aggression" affects only 5% of your territory (occupied by your own people you bombed) and 5% of the economy - not even an excuse for such devastation. And since MH-17 crash there were relatively little military activity in the East - you can't even call that a war or aggression. It's time to stop whining and look into the mirror carefully. Then, get rebuilding your own country you destroyed.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 69):
We only posed a threat to putin's regime, not Russia (and we do want all the best for Russians, first of all, to get of the fascist that governs them...) - he did not want an example that a 'brotherly' nation could have been for Russians, a country that can say 'basta' to its president, a country where we don't exist for the president but where the president exists for us.

Having looked at Ukraine - it's better to have a sober "dictator" than an always drunk "democratically elected leader". Syrians, Belorussians and Russians clearly get that, and do support their leaders. Also - what are those "European values" you wanted? Do those include bombing your own cities? Killing your own citizens? Outright war crimes against own people? "Garbage tank lustration"? I am sure it's not what you thought on Maidan, but it's what you got, and how you are viewed by the world.

Here and forward please get used to the following - who is the leader in some other country, what's his name, how he is elected or appointed - it's none of your business, it's business of people of those countries. Nobody from those "dictators" tried to prevent you from electing your Poroshenko, and neither should you.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:27 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
Poor me - I thought it was wrong to attack other countries, especially the ones that your president claims to be a brotherly nation, but it appears that it's OK.

Come on people - you have annoyed everyone by being "poor us" and always begging for something (usually of value). You better look around more - how many days will it take Russia to dismantle your "independence" completely? Your own generals said - we will surrender within 24 hours.

In 21st century it's all upside down - nobody wants you and your country, neither in whole or a part of it. Putin is happy to push those DNR and LNR back into Ukraine, and then the whole thing into EU. EU doesn't already know how to get rid of you and would be happy if Putin actually does make the move. So will be your "leaders" - in this scenario they will escape somewhere, create a "government in exile" and just live there. A good example here is your own PM - he finally "earned" his 1st USD 1 billion, acquired a Canadian citizenship and said "Ukraine isn't my homeland, and I won't live here once done".

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
Has a apart of Ukraine been annexed by any other country but russia?

Nobody annexed any part of your country. Crimeans saw where was it all heading (enough sights of Maidan jumping and burning police, including from their own region), and made their democratic choice to secede and get out of there. And don't regret it. I would have done the same in similar circumstances.

[Edited 2015-10-14 00:20:52]
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
The last time I checked - we are an independent country

Oh please - an independent country. The reality in your country today is that even corrupted clans and criminal gangs cannot gain access to contraband streams without approval of the "governor general" U.S. Ambassador Pyatt, who is making decisions on who gets access to what revenue stream even in underworld. Makes me wonder if and how does he get his share. Even "dictators" don't get to make such decisions in their own countries. It's hard to call this an independence, you know...
 
76er
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:01 am

May I politely ask you guys to take the political discussion elsewhere? Thank you.
 
777way
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:07 am

So the missle flew in from the front right accross cockpit in clear view of the crew.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting 76er (Reply 57):
- The missile *was* fired from rebel held territory. Putting this directly into the final report was deemed politically too sensitive.

Yes, it's politically sensitive. If it's Ukraine who's at fault - such appointment will send the whole Western politics towards Russia and Ukraine down the drain and make them all look like idiots (will happen eventually, just like on UN assembly with respect to Middle East). If Russia - too many commercial ties are under question. Hence the investigation officials didn't seem even to try - they are humans, they want to advance their careers, get elected somewhere maybe. And don't really need any sharp moments. Sad really - it's been 1.5 years into investigation, then more time to determine where the launch site was, then more time to find those at fault. And when all said and done - statutes of limitations are out, and nothing can be done. That's the likeliest outcome in my view.

If I was a Dutch citizen - I would be sad and angry seeing how my government not willing to stand firmly behind the lives of 100 of my fellow citizens, and get to the bottom of this incident, regardless who is at fault. And wouldn't have valued them bringing forward some "solidarity" considerations - not the case for them. Yes, they are bound by EU and NATO agreements and processes - but if they don't work right in such cases, are they really needed then?
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:16 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 74):
So the missle flew in from the front right accross cockpit in clear view of the crew.

Even if they saw it, there is nothing an airliner could do to avoid the hit.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:17 am

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 44):
Comment #1, Take #2: The sanctions weren't made due to this attack. The US wanted the EU to set them up.

+1 - well said. Sanctions are mostly means of unfair competition. EU had no problem lifting sanctions affecting space fuel trade with Russians, as they did recently.
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 63):
The US did behave for a while exactly like the Russians are behaving. So, does that make it justifiable for Putin to do the same?

Well, more things in this whole story point to Ukrainians than to Russians. And this investigations wasn't going to find who did it. If Russians didn't do it - how do you expect them to behave? They cooperated with the investigation. But they certainly aren't expected to admit it.
 
777way
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 76):

Makinga sudden turn left instinctivelt, also no natural reaction to utter out something seeing that.
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
You don't get that the E.U. and the USA share the same values?

Yes, they both showed they share exactly the same values. Support for armed coups, covering up war crimes and terrorism, very creative ways of maintaining competitiveness (via sanctions), and the likes. Not the values I share (and am embarrassed my country shares most of them).

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
And the russian values did not appeal to us because we had the same crap back at home - corrupt government and no prospective of a change...

And what do you have now? Even more corrupt government, any politicians who could possibly change something are either in garbage tanks, or "committed suicides", or simply forced out of country. Where would the change come from now? Europe? With all due respect to European members of this forum, EU hasn't demonstrated it has enough guts to get itself together and act, or even tell someone something they won't like hearing.
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 241
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 79):
Makinga sudden turn left instinctivelt, also no natural reaction to utter out something seeing that.

It travels at Mach 3, it would have taken longer for their brains to just process what they were seeing, let alone give them any chance for reacting.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
AR385
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 79):
Makinga sudden turn left instinctivelt, also no natural reaction to utter out something seeing that.

At three times the speed of sound? At the size of the Buk?. Doubt they even saw it. But you make a good point...Would the TCAS had seen it?
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:43 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 82):
At three times the speed of sound? At the size of the Buk?. Doubt they even saw it. But you make a good point...Would the TCAS had seen it?

Would even TCAS have enough time to figure out if the missile appeared in its view for a tiny fraction of a second before it exploded and TCAS stopped functioning?
 
AR385
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 83):
Would even TCAS have enough time to figure out if the missile appeared in its view for a tiny fraction of a second before it exploded and TCAS stopped functioning?

Well. I don´t know. Thus my question...
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 67):
but it appears that Russia is attacking Ukraine to punish the USA.

I am under impression Ukraine just loves to be punished. I don't even know how to call it when applied to the country. Yes, you do see US and Russia in some fight. What's the expected reaction? "Please, if you want to fight and kill each other, do it elsewhere. Just not here.". What did your President say? "Ukraine is ready for World War 3!". So, yes, you are attracting all this.
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 64):
I can believe that... but it's not really relevant. I'm interested in knowing who shot the plane down, and then blame can be apportioned. For the record, I would blame Ukrainian and Aviation authorities for being incompetent/not aware enough/not communicating, but that's also for another day.

Agree. And the first thing the report mentions is that Ukrainian authorities did have the responsibility to close the air space - the war was raging there for a while, and planes have been shot down before. But due to inner workings in Kiev regime and their leaders, that simply had no chance of happening.
 
Andriyko
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 72):
Oh please - an independent country. The reality in your country today is that even corrupted clans and criminal gangs cannot gain access to contraband streams without approval of the "governor general" U.S. Ambassador Pyatt, who is making decisions on who gets access to what revenue stream even in underworld. Makes me wonder if and how does he get his share. Even "dictators" don't get to make such decisions in their own countries. It's hard to call this an independence, you know...

You know I was afraid that I would wake up to see the nonsense that you would poison this thread with. Everything that you wrote is nonsense and shows where you get your 'information'... "Drunk" leader? I assume you refer to a story that our President tried to board a plane to see the kremlin fascist? The story that appeared in a few russian newspapers and news sites? If you believe it you really must hate Ukraine and love russia. It just shows what you would believe.

I won't even touch upon everything else you said as there is no changing your mind. Because this is not your mind speaking - you're like an outlet of the russian propaganda machine. I just don't know how to react to what you say because it is all BS and I can't verify any of the information that you mention unless I go to a russian website, but then I might as well make up any story that I like. I honestly was hoping that you would not write anything as it is all utter and complete BS and just poisons this thread and no one but a few of your fellow Russians who read the same sources would believe what you say. But if you are happy to live believing everything your former motherland spurs out - that is your problem, not everybody else's.

But I will say this - and I said this before - if you love russia so much, if its values and tsar are so dear to you, why did you leave in the first place and why don't you come back? Why live in a country that is not your beloved russia? I don't understand this contradiction. Such a great country, such a great leader, etc, etc. and yet every Russian who posts on threads like these lives abroad - that's the best example of how 'great' their motherland is.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 86):
Agree. And the first thing the report mentions is that Ukrainian authorities did have the responsibility to close the air space - the war was raging there for a while, and planes have been shot down before. But due to inner workings in Kiev regime and their leaders, that simply had no chance of happening.

What are you smoking? I am tired of your lies and insinuations. Do you know the workings of our government? Can you perhaps enlighten us what exactly stood in the way of the airspace being closed? Ukraine did close the airspace up to FL320. The only reason it was not closed completely was because no one knew how crazy putin is and what kinds of weapons he would supply to his vacationing members of military and nobody could have imagine that russians would start shooting down planes. That's the only reason. But I would agree that we should have closed the airspace completely as Ukraine had no physical control over it. Please, please do not type everything you hear on russian news and pretend that you know everything - no one believes it. You just clog the thread with your nonsense. I understand that for people like you it would take putin's personal confession that he is a war criminal who invaded another country. killed its people and shot down that plane, but that has no chance of happening, so live in your delusion but do not poison these threads with it please.

And being on topic - this is from BBC:

The board does not have the authority to apportion blame, under the rules governing international crash investigations.
But speaking to reporters after the news conference, Mr Joustra said pro-Russian rebels were in charge of the area from where the missile that hit MH17 had been fired.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34511973

[Edited 2015-10-14 01:10:37]
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:04 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 79):
Makinga sudden turn left instinctivelt, also no natural reaction to utter out something seeing that.

Not really. The field of view out of an airliner is quite limited, compared to a fighter jet. There is no RWR to warn the pilots and the missile comes in at Mach 3. TCAS does not notice it as the missile has no transponder. And mist importantly they were dead, before they probably had any idea on what they were seeing. SAMs are not something a normal airliner pilot is used to encounter in the first place.
 
AIRWALK
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 82):
Quoting anrec80 (Reply 83):

TCAS works by getting radio signals from other transponders. It doesn't detect nearby objects
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 89):
TCAS works by getting radio signals from other transponders. It doesn't detect nearby objects

Absouletely right. And I know that...must the hour. Thanks anyway.
 
76er
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:14 am

I suggest the both of you do some simple research about basics of TCAS. My God..
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:37 am

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 65):

I obviously don't know if the US has images or not. One reason the US might not share images is because they might not have any that are useful to the enquiry, one eay or another.

The fact that a satellite may be over a country does not automatically mean that its sensors are focused on an area that later becomes the centre of interest.
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
anrec80
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 87):
You know I was afraid that I would wake up to see the nonsense

Your fears were justified I afraid. I think you overestimating the support of your self-victimizing. It doesn't earn you any respect. You'll have much stronger position if you show that you (whether as an individual or as a nation) are capable to understand and sort out your own problems, and instead 75% of your posts are "how poor we are and how bad Putin is". Really, please. It just doesn't work well here - you are simply embarrassing yourself and your country with this.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 87):
Because this is not your mind speaking - you're like an outlet of the russian propaganda machine.

Well, I believe it's actually my mind. Yes, I do watch Russian TV and find it more balanced - they do invite people of other viewpoints (including Europeans and Ukrainians) - something Ukrainian media forgot about, and Western media lacks as well. So, it's questionable where really the propaganda is.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 87):
Do you know the workings of our government?

This is a very simple one. Yes, I am aware they closed the air space up to FL320, but not completely, despite knowing there are air defense in the area, and Dutch report pointed that out. I think the primary motivator here was that your air navigation authorities simply didn't want to lose the overflight fees - Ukraine (and likely someone else who was "in the share") was making a good amount of foreign currency on them, and in crashing economy it became even more important for them. But it's just my personal opinion. And I certainly won't speculate on some conspiracy theories (some suggest that it was supposed to be Putin's plane flying from Brazil).

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 87):
I assume you refer to a story that our President tried to board a plane to see the kremlin fascist?

There are plenty of stories, not just this one. And I certainly don't think it's funny; it's very sad - what once great, peaceful and interesting country turned itself into in less than 2 years.

Quoting Andriyko (Reply 87):
But I will say this - and I said this before - if you love russia so much, if its values and tsar are so dear to you, why did you leave in the first place and why don't you come back?

I'll perhaps share a bit of my feelings here. I actually moved away a while ago from your country. Speaking of coming back - I don't see any place for me to come back to. You are forgetting that tens of millions of people in that country used to share and share my opinion - but going after your "European values" you preferred to just ignore and brutally suppress them - with security services, garbage tanks, shelling, bombings ("Our kids will go to school, their kids will be sitting in basements" - (c) Pres. P. ). This is where all your problems are - Crimea, Odessa, Donetsk. None of them come from Putin. Can I consider THAT my homeland? No.
 
Andriyko
Posts: 88
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:52 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 92):
I obviously don't know if the US has images or not. One reason the US might not share images is because they might not have any that are useful to the enquiry, one eay or another.

The fact that a satellite may be over a country does not automatically mean that its sensors are focused on an area that later becomes the centre of interest.

There are probably no images. And if there are then they have been shared with the investigators. Nobody would just put them them out in the open to blame someone - what purpose would it serve?

The existence of the images was the first line of defence of russians - if Americans had images they would have released them to confirm who did it. Or that the U.S. had a satellite over Ukraine at the time at that point - yeah, right. And who confirmed it? This is not how the investigation works. I believe that upon completion of the criminal investigation we'll find out whether any satellite images really exist.
 
777way
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:56 am

I meant when it whizzed by the cockpit the crew must have noticed it, it happened with a PIA flight out of JFK just a few months after TW800, pilots had to duck when they saw it, audio online of that incident.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:09 am

The main question will certainly be how to decide if an area is unsafe to fly over, and who bears responsibility for declaring an area safe/unsafe. And also who bears the responsibility when an accident happens in spite of having knowledge of an armed conflict.

Perhaps the Ukrainian authorities thought that, as Russia supports the "rebels" with manpower and equipment, that Russia has to take responsibility, and warn the authorities that the area is unsafe.

But saying "Hey, we are currently deploying anti-aircraft missiles in this theatre. All airspace from ground to 40'000 ft is not safe" would have given a very crucial hint to the Ukrainian air force...

Only states are members of ICAO, but no rebel groups. And certainly also no generals...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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seahawk
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:37 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 95):
I meant when it whizzed by the cockpit the crew must have noticed it, it happened with a PIA flight out of JFK just a few months after TW800, pilots had to duck when they saw it, audio online of that incident.

A PIA flight was fired at by a real radar guided SAM near JFK?
 
Andriyko
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:12 pm

RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 93):
You are forgetting that tens of millions of people in that country used to share and share my opinion - but going after your "European values" you preferred to just ignore and brutally suppress them - with security services, garbage tanks, shelling, bombings ("Our kids will go to school, their kids will be sitting in basements" - (c) Pres. P. ). This is where all your problems are - Crimea, Odessa, Donetsk. None of them come from Putin. Can I consider THAT my homeland? No.

I really have nothing to say to this but that you should stop watching Russian TV. What is reported on russian TV and what happens in real life have nothing in common (how about their interview with a pilot of the fighter jet who shot down the plane? Or reported confirmation of the evidence that the russian defence ministry has of the air-to-air missile that brought down the plane? Did you hear any refutation of that now that even russians confirm that it only could have been a land-to-air missile?).
I won't be responding to any of your ramblings anymore as all they do is poison this thread. There is no changing your mind and it makes me sick that you re-post the puke thrown up by russian TV here - no one believes it. Only people like you, who approach the subject with a pre-set state of mind. If I want to transfer myself from the streets of real Kiev into a fantasy land where gangsters with rifles kill everyone who speaks Russian I would watch russian TV but I value my mental health much more. And I can see how it is difficult for you to see the reality if you've lived in the bubble created by the russian TV all this time.

P.S. The quotation that you're referring to is another fabricated piece of 'news' by the russian TV, where somebody else's words are taken out of context. Find the whole speech and listen to what he says - our kids (those who live in the unoccupied Ukraine) will go to schools but theirs (in the territories occupied by the russians) will be sitting in basements, because they (so-called leaders) do not know how to do anything (in that those few districts are not functioning governments and can't take care of their residents), and this is how we will win the war (by example of a peaceful life in the rest of Ukraine). He was stating the fact and the reality of life in the occupied territories, where the fighting was continuing at that time, rather than making threats. But it astonishes me how readily you consume the lies disseminated by the russian TV and then spread this poison here. If it fits your made up reality who needs the truth, right? There is not enough space on this forum to refute every single lie that the russian media spreads, and this is really not why we're here. So, please, please, once again, please stop re-posting these lies and quotes and fabricated news - if you're happy to live in that bubble so be it. But we live in the real world rather than the virtual reality created by the russian propaganda. We watch russian TV, we know what they say, and it has nothing to do with reality.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 93):
Really, please. It just doesn't work well here - you are simply embarrassing yourself and your country with this.

What does not work well here is your fantasies and the spreading of lies and fabricated news from russia. The only person embarrassing himself is you. So, stop post these lies and keep them to yourself. No one believes anything you say anyway. So warm your own heart with these fantasies.

[Edited 2015-10-14 02:44:00]
 
777way
Posts: 6457
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RE: MH17 Final Report Published 13 October 2015

Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 97):

Did you see CGI of the MH incident, it was clearly in the vision line of the crew.

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