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ordell
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Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:07 pm

An Air France flight from Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport to Johannesburg, South Africa was forced to declare an emergency and turn around 45 minutes into its journey, after crew discovered that two passengers were missing.

Crew onboard the Boeing A380 triggered the security alert after realising that the passenger list and baggage did not match - with four bags loaded without their owners.

Flight AF990A which was scheduled to fly at 11.30pm last night, had been delayed by technical issues until 09.30am this morning before the mid-air emergency.

Read the rest here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...ealise-two-passengers-MISSING.html
 
lostsound
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:10 pm

Boeing A380...

At first I was trying to figure out why that would make them declare an emergency but I get it. Loading bags without their owners has triggered some pretty tragic events before.
 
aklrno
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:44 pm

I thought that maybe the emergency was that the aircraft was not certified. Last I checked Boeing wan't certified to build A380s.
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
Boeing A380

A Boeing A380, then...

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
Flight AF990A

I didn't know Air France ever flew the Convair 990!

As for the actual topic: it was certainly a justified diversion.
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
edina
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 3):

I didn't know Air France ever flew the Convair 990!

Funny you should mention it.........

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=193948&d=1301816214
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KELPkid
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 1):

At first I was trying to figure out why that would make them declare an emergency but I get it. Loading bags without their owners has triggered some pretty tragic events before.

Isn't that usually caught before pushback? I thought that's why flight attendants usually take a head count right after the door is shut...and on airlines like WN, they also take a headcount at stopovers after the arriving passengers deplane and before new passengers are boarded  
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DeltaB717
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 3):
Quoting ordell (Thread starter):Flight AF990A
I didn't know Air France ever flew the Convair 990!

The article states the flight was delayed overnight due to a technical issue (from 2330 to 0930). This would cause 2x AF990 to be operating on the same day, which necessitates that one of those flights change its callsign. Hence, the delayed service becomes AF990A. Happens all the time...

Meanwhile, and not wanting to hijack the thread, but is this for real!? F-HPJA, according to flightaware, flew LAX-DRS!?!? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FHPJA
 
aryonoco
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Isn't that usually caught before pushback?

Yes it should have been caught. Someone didn't do their job properly and caused a very expensive outcome. Lucky for them, they can't be fired, because AF.
 
smi0006
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:59 pm

It's a very very easy mistake to make, increasingly in the modern day of technology- mobile and home printed boarding passes, boarding passes don't scan as they should and the agents can manually boards the wrong pax via seat number. people won't hand over the phone for the gate agent to scan. Quick turn times mean gate staff rush. Mistakes happen.

Head counts aren't practical with the amount of pax onboard an A380, you end up recounting and recounting and looking for the right answer.

Good to see AF security took this seriously, and returned to JNB. I have see other captains decided on the ground they wouldn't wait to offload a bag and simply go with it onboard- big no no.
 
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jorge1812
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:54 am

Meanwhile, and not wanting to hijack the thread, but is this for real!? F-HPJA, according to flightaware, flew LAX-DRS!?!? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FHPJA


Sorry for not quoting correctly, doesn't work on the iPad.

Yes, F-HPJA is currently at DRS after coming in from LAX for wing repair/modification as lots of other 380 did in the last years.
DRS%20/%20EDDC)" target="_blank">https://www.airliners.net/search/phot...(-%20Klotzsche)%20(DRS%20/%20EDDC)

IIRC JA had some gear issues at LAX and flew empty to DRS directly instead of offloading the PAX at CDG.
 
excalibur
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:43 am

Same thing happened to me on an AF flight from JFK to CDG some years ago. Apparently it was a JFK luggage system error that lead these bags to be loaded in the AF777. Captain very quietly told us about some tech problems (this happened right after 9/11 so you can imagine people were already nervous enough...) and diverted to YYT where we did an overweight landing. Plane was inspected by DL mech IIRC and continued its journey to Paris without further incident. This is the kind of situation where you realize how tough the 777 really is !! This machine is like a Cessna. Rock solid !

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citationjet
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:59 am

You can't have your luggage on a flight you are not a passenger on? It happens each time the airlines lose my luggage.   
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EIDL
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 11):
You can't have your luggage on a flight you are not a passenger on? It happens each time the airlines lose my luggage.   

Once the passenger has actually travelled and intended to do so with the bags its OK, basically. Not getting on the flight at all is the problem.

I've had bags arrive *before* me due to an agent thinking a 'direct' same plane same number flight was a quicker connection than was actually available over another hub, with my bags going that route.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 12):
Once the passenger has actually travelled and intended to do so with the bags its OK, basically. Not getting on the flight at all is the problem.

Aren't checked bags x-rayed and hand inspected if necessary anyway? I'm finding messages from CATSA in my tool cases every time I fly. And it looks like in Canada the luggage is screened in connecting stations as well. I've been once called to security when connecting at YYZ to explain what is this strange thing in my suitcase.
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skipness1E
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 8):
Good to see AF security took this seriously, and returned to JNB. I have see other captains decided on the ground they wouldn't wait to offload a bag and simply go with it onboard- big no no.

Why can't they carry the bag without the passenger? All hold baggage is scanned no? All cargo is scanned? Happens all the time in the US. What's the risk to life here?
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):

Why can't they carry the bag without the passenger? All hold baggage is scanned no? All cargo is scanned? Happens all the time in the US. What's the risk to life here?

Ever heard of Lockerbie? The System was implemented after the Lockerbie Desaster where a bag was loaded at LHR that came in from MLA via FRA, without a passenger attached.

Fraport afterwards developed a System that matches boarded passengers with loaded bags. If a passenger with an issued Boarding pass does not Show up but his bag does, it will be offloaded.
Standard procedure in Europe and elsewhere except obviousy domestic USA. They don't Need that since they never had any Terror attacks with domestic flights. Just good enough to tell them Europeans how to handle Airport security.

BTW, if you don't find the sarcasm don't answer
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highlanderfil
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:08 pm

I was once on a SEA-IAD-CHO flight (switching planes in IAD, obviously), but the weather was so crappy, I didn't want the rollercoaster ride in a Saab 340 to CHO, so I just drove with a bunch of classmates who were also on the flight. My bag, on the other hand, did end up on the Saab, but sounds like it should have been offloaded?

[Edited 2015-10-15 09:09:18]
 
skipness1E
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Ever heard of Lockerbie? The System was implemented after the Lockerbie Desaster where a bag was loaded at LHR that came in from MLA via FRA, without a passenger attached.

Of course I have, please don't be provocative for the sake of it. Hold luggage is now screened to a much higher standard ( or I am misled) so I ask again, what's the risk to life?

The US still sends bags on ahead without the passenger? Airlines send unaccompanied bags every single day when they are sepearted from the passenger. Does anyone have a non sarcastic answer? Are we saying that everyday hold baggage is not screened to a standard high enough to permit shipping on it's own?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Standard procedure in Europe and elsewhere except obviousy domestic USA.

OBVIOUSLY domestic US, as the 9-11 killers deduced, was a weak point in security. Is this making any sense to people? If I can fly in the no9w paranoid US domestically without my bags, what's the logic? Genuine question.
 
richierich
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
The US still sends bags on ahead without the passenger? Airlines send unaccompanied bags every single day when they are sepearted from the passenger. Does anyone have a non sarcastic answer? Are we saying that everyday hold baggage is not screened to a standard high enough to permit shipping on it's own?

When flying standby to Hawaii a couple of years ago, I was listed on a DL flight but unfortunately for me I did not get on. My checked luggage, however, most certainly did. I flew the next morning - on a different airline - and my bags were waiting for me at the HNL Delta baggage office.

I wondered about the potential security risk of this situation and realized that it happens all of the time. My denied boarding was "involuntary" but there are, presumably, secondary screening measures that scan all (or at least a percentage) of all checked baggage.

The positive bag match is one level of security but it is hardly a fail-safe. There is, and needs to be, other ways to screen bags. There are plenty of suicidal terrorists out there, or ways to pass along bombs as "gifts" to unsuspecting friends or relatives who are passengers, and obviously these would defeat positive bag match. Unfortunately, all of these methods have been tried and been successful at least once, and my fear is that there are terrorists ready to exploit possible security loopholes at the first chance.
None shall pass!!!!
 
747megatop
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting ordell (Thread starter):
Boeing A380

LoL...did Boeing and Airbus just merge and decided to rebrand the Whale Jet   ?
 
bwphoto
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:04 pm

I missed a connection in SFO on my way to YVR this spring. I was told I couldn't fly standby on the next flight because I wasn't guaranteed to get on but my bags would and the bags couldn't go without me. Instead, I had to be booked (guaranteed seat) on the last flight of the day. I was told it was because it was an international flight and wouldn't be the case if domestic.

Don't pity me, though. I took BART into the city for the day, and the CSR seated me in an extra legroom seat to YVR. I like to think it was because I was friendly, took it in stride, and didn't have a tantrum when I needed to change my flight.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:11 pm

Take the example of an oversell... they ask for volunteers to take a later flight, and those that do take whatever the offer is still have their checked luggage travel aboard their original flight!
 
drgmobile
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 1):
At first I was trying to figure out why that would make them declare an emergency but I get it. Loading bags without their owners has triggered some pretty tragic events before.

There an awful lot of assumptions about aviation security being made in this thread. The world has changed a lot since the last time an aircraft was blow up out of the sky by a suitcase bomb. Security requirements around unaccompanied bags in many jurisdictions have been adjusted to take into account that checked-baggage is now usually screened and a host of other new security measures across a range of areas have been put into place. This sounds more like an overabundance of caution situation than a "somebody should be fired" situation.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting lostsound (Reply 1):

At first I was trying to figure out why that would make them declare an emergency but I get it. Loading bags without their owners has triggered some pretty tragic events before.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Ever heard of Lockerbie?

That was almost 25 years ago. Tens of thousands of flights depart each day with bags whose owners aren't on board the plane.

Quoting richierich (Reply 18):
My denied boarding was "involuntary" but there are, presumably, secondary screening measures that scan all (or at least a percentage) of all checked baggage.

Every single article of checked luggage in the US is screened by TSA, except for bags arriving from YEG (which are, of course, fully screened there).

The only time an airline has to pull a bag in the US is in case of voluntary denied boarding to an international location, or obviously if there's some kind of other security issue, but we don't do positive bag match on domestic flights.
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richierich
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
That was almost 25 years ago. Tens of thousands of flights depart each day with bags whose owners aren't on board the plane.

Try 27 years ago this December.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Every single article of checked luggage in the US is screened by TSA, except for bags arriving from YEG (which are, of course, fully screened there).

Why is Edmonton different?
None shall pass!!!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting edina (Reply 4):
Quoting WesternDC6B (Reply 3):

I didn't know Air France ever flew the Convair 990!

Funny you should mention it.........

Yes, an ex-AA 990, leased (presumably wet-leased) from Modern Air for 9 months, March-November 1967.
 
greenair727
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting DeltaB717:
The article states the flight was delayed overnight due to a technical issue (from 2330 to 0930). This would cause 2x AF990 to be operating on the same day, which necessitates that one of those flights change its callsign. Hence, the delayed service becomes AF990A. Happens all the time...

Is this an ICAO rule? Does it apply to FAA in the US as well? Does it apply only a specific route?

In the US, I've seen airlines use a flight number numerous times. For example CO212, could be EWR-MIA, then MSY-IAH, then CLE-LGA all in the same day.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 26):
Is this an ICAO rule? Does it apply to FAA in the US as well? Does it apply only a specific route?

ICAO doesn't have rules, it has standards. It is up to member states to introduce rules to meet ICAO standards, and these are always open to interpretation. Aviation security is about layers of security so it is not unusual for countries to do things quite differently but for the overall strength of the system to be evaluated as providing an equivalent security value.

Folks in the industry are understandable loath to get into specifics in terms of aviation security measures, and this is the right approach.
 
greenair727
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:31 pm

^thanks drgmobile---my question though, was on flight numbering protocol, not on security.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):

That was almost 25 years ago. Tens of thousands of flights depart each day with bags whose owners aren't on board the plane.

Not in Europe and most parts outside the USA. The Thing is that the US imposes sometimes most ridiculous things on travellers worldwide but there is a lapse in security in the Homeland as you and others confirm that baggage can ride without the owner sitting in the same flight.

It is uttermost stupid to require People to take off their shoes because some bum tried to ignite his socks once but the same authorities allow unaccompanied baggage to fly andeven giving persons a Chance to bank on that Situation by arranging themselves to be on a different flight.

Like I said, does not happen in Europe and not to and from either.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):

OBVIOUSLY domestic US, as the 9-11 killers deduced, was a weak point in security. Is this making any sense to people? If I can fly in the no9w paranoid US domestically without my bags, what's the logic? Genuine question.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Standard procedure in Europe and elsewhere except obviousy domestic USA. They don't Need that since they never had any Terror attacks with domestic flights. Just good enough to tell them Europeans how to handle Airport security.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
The Thing is that the US imposes sometimes most ridiculous things on travellers worldwide but there is a lapse in security in the Homeland as you and others confirm that baggage can ride without the owner sitting in the same flight.

It amazes me how ignorant Europeans are on U.S. procedures, but yet that doesn't stop them from vilifying what they don't even comprehend and making themselves look foolish.

Time for an education:
For the last 14 years (essentially since 9/11) the U.S. has required either PPBM *or* EDS (Explosive Detection Screening) for bags. As of 10+ years ago, all U.S. airports are equipped with the EDS technology. What this means, is that every bag goes through EDS so PPBM isn't required (domestically). Anyone with an IQ > 80 knows that EDS is far superior to PPBM. Perhaps Europe is not aware of "Suicide bombers". All of the recent attacks have involved suicidal intentions. PPBM won't stop them... If Europe solely depends on PPBM, shame on them. No developed country should put it's pax/crew lives at risk that way.
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PanHAM
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:51 pm

Got some news for you, RDUDDJI, bags are screened in Europe as well, even Hand baggage now has to undergo explosive tests, even People may have their Hands checked for explosive trace.

Still, on top of that, no bag flies without the owner sitting in the same aircraft. No System is fail safe, but ours is a bit safer than yours.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
Got some news for you, RDUDDJI, bags are screened in Europe as well, even Hand baggage now has to undergo explosive tests, even People may have their Hands checked for explosive trace.

Good, I figured as much. Same goes here and in most industrialized countries. We also use AIT (which I am against) and other ETD tech.

PPBM is redundant and unnecessary if you're using EDS. It's a outdated kneejerk reaction to PanAm 103. The threat landscape is completely different than 27 years ago. Even if a PPBM bag were to get bagroom or plane side and blows up, it will cause casualties. But in reality it would have been caught in EDS so it's a moot point. There are many easier ways to cause mass casualties with a bomb than a checked bag.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
No System is fail safe, but ours is a bit safer than yours.

Agreed on the first, false on the second, as proven by this thread. It's a false sense of security and those resources could be better used on things that actually benefit the security program, like making sure no more shoe/underwear/etc. bombers get on flights...

[Edited 2015-10-16 11:38:39]
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TWA772LR
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Isn't that usually caught before pushback

It should. Gate, ramp, ops, and bag room should've all been on the same page.

When I worked at TK and was assigned to be in the bag room after the counters closed, I delayed a couple flights because the ramp offloaded the wrong bag. And the bag room agents recorded the right bag, but loaded it in a different can. They shut both holds and almost the bulk and I looked at the tag of the first one they offloaded and called my supervisor who was at the gate that ramp offloaded the wrong bag. The station manager said we were gonna hand search every can after we looked in the falsely recorded one and the bulk. The first can we looked in in the forward hold had the bag. We kept the aircraft at the gate for at least another 45 mins trying to figure everything out. And still got out earlier than what we normally did! TK is chronically late in IAH
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tcyvr
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):

All that changed after AI 182 incident.
 
goliontus
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:59 am

I am not that clued up on procedure, so please bare with me.

How did the flight crew realise that the passengers were missing, 45 minutes into the flight? Did they do a head count then?

If it was that big of an emergency, why return to CDG and not land at Toulouse or somewhere? There must have been other suitable airports closer?

I've read the thread and it mentions software used by Fraport. Was there really no automated alert that baggage was on board for passengers that didn't check in?

Thank you.
 
Lofty
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RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:56 am

The main issue is "intention to travel" if a airlines loads your bag onto the wrong flight you have no control over that. If you do not show up at the gate you do. The AF flight did what any European carrier would have done following a risk assessment by their security team in consultation with the flight crew.

In Europe your bag can not travel in front of you but it does look like in the US it can. You are correct all bags are x-rayed in Europe but are subject to extra searches when flying loaded as missed bags etc.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:32 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Quoting smi0006 (Reply 8):Good to see AF security took this seriously, and returned to JNB. I have see other captains decided on the ground they wouldn't wait to offload a bag and simply go with it onboard- big no no.

Why can't they carry the bag without the passenger? All hold baggage is scanned no? All cargo is scanned? Happens all the time in the US. What's the risk to life here?


Think Lockerbee.
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ojjunior
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Re: RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:47 pm

aklrno wrote:
I thought that maybe the emergency was that the aircraft was not certified. Last I checked Boeing wan't certified to build A380s.


LOL for whole weekend! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tks pal.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:49 pm

We don't know how the bomb got onboard, but Metrojet Flight 9268 was brought down by a bomb, and that was not even one year ago.

The incident in Somalia was this year.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Planesmart
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Re: RE: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:42 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Still, on top of that, no bag flies without the owner sitting in the same aircraft. No System is fail safe, but ours is a bit safer than yours.

So to/from the USA, no bag ever flies to a different destination than it's owner? If I fly LAX to LHR, and my bag doesn't, I have to fly back to LHR to collect it, then return with it to LHR?
 
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tlecam
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Re: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:55 pm

As Planesmart noted, that is a false statement. I flew from Paris to JFK last Thursday. My bags did not make the connection in Paris (due to an Etihad issue, which is another whole debacle.). I was flying on an AirFrance ticket.
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PacificBeach88
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:42 pm

Re: Air France Flight Diverts Due To Missing Pax

Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:25 am

Jesus, this thread has turned into a bunch of nonsense and anecdotal experiences. Yawn.

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