Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22): The flights to HNL from anywhere except LAX and SFO are unquestionably the longest in the system without lie flat J.

Yep, IIRC ORD-HNL is the longest at 9 hours 3 minutes (today).

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13): These are not US United hubs, therefore obviating them from this discussion.

Ok, but that's not what you said originally. You said:

Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter): they make using the hub very difficult for US passengers, as it is only served through HNL.

If you want to now say they only serve it from one US city, that's fine. But the fact is they serve it from other cities that provide the same one top service to GUM for the US customer.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22): The flights to HNL from anywhere except LAX and SFO are unquestionably the longest in the system without lie flat J.

Not exactly, EWR-HNL is a lie flat 764. I believe the seasonal IAD-HNL in the past has also flown lie flat.

[Edited 2015-10-15 13:52:40]

Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter): Eight hours without power or seatback entertainment or in a recliner J seat is brutal.

I flew it in December when it was no power...it was actually not bad. Knowing this before hand I bought one of those battery usb ports. I was cool. The personal device content wasn't bad - the wifi was fine as well. Its a long flight either way you slice it but its not a bad Y product.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11): Quoting adamblang (Reply 10): I might be using DOT numbers incorrectly but 1/3 of traffic from Guam headed toward the 50 U.S. states (so excluding other Pacific U.S. territory traffic) is going to Hawai‘i. No need for mainland U.S. flights there. There has been various talk over the years that a non-stop to LAX would be forthcoming, because of the amount of traffic.

As has been said the GUM demand is Korea/Japan/China/ and military mainly. I think its served via HNL and NRT quite well.

I actually had a chance to pull Greg Brenneman aside at a employee meeting many moons ago and asked about CMI. I asked at the time why didn't CO put in a non-stop LAX-GUM.

He explained that CMI makes money PURELY off Japanese vacation traffic. He said they had crunched the numbers and if they added a LAXGUM flight it would lose money, and it would cause LAX-HNL and HNL-GUM to loose money so that is why CMI is the way it is. Anyone who flies thru it that is a North American is just gravy, but its true bread and butter is soley Japan and their vacation markets.

Its been a long time ago, but they way he explained it made perfect sense and it was a informed explanation so i know they had looked into it.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 7): I've been to Guam twice (2010-11), both times I saw mostly Japanese and Korean tourists. I understand more Chinese are coming now too.

I saw lots of Russians in Saipan. I do not see GUM even set up like ANC years ago, still no transit areas, so it makes it less desirable to transit pax.

I was in HNL once and saw a couple checking in for HNL-HKG via GUM on United.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22): The 738s are run strictly from the west coast, and the onboard product is fairly similar, actually.

China and Japan have UA 737s, including 738s. Some of these don't even feature economy plus, apart from the exit row and the bulkhead. Up front, the Hawai'i birds have the old UA int'l C cabin seats, which recline a lot further than your standard 737 F seat and feature nice little extras like foot rests that UA got rid of years ago, except for some crew rest seats.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 22): The flights to HNL from anywhere except LAX and SFO are unquestionably the longest in the system without lie flat J.

Yup, that's why these birds got the old int'l C seats as a compromise. At least it's not 7 hrs in a 738 going from BOS to SFO because UA got rid of 752s.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 27): I was in HNL once and saw a couple checking in for HNL-HKG via GUM on United.

Should have gone through NRT  

Quoting ua900 (Reply 28):

In favor of 753s, and PS 752s coming online. And anyways, what's the big deal? The 737 and 757 came out of the same jig with the same fuselage diameter.

Quoting catiii (Reply 29): In favor of 753s, and PS 752s coming online. And anyways, what's the big deal? The 737 and 757 came out of the same jig with the same fuselage diameter.

true...but the cabin height is different fwiw

The only carrier that's ever operated nonstop from the U.S. mainland to GUM was Braniff and, like all their short-lived transpacific services, it was a failure. Many of the 747SP flights were almost empty. GUM was a stop to HKG. Without the ability to serve Japan, no U.S. carrier has ever been successful on transpacific routes. TWA had the same problem during their 5 years of transpacific (and around the world) service 1969-74.

Braniff June 1980 route map. All the Asian routes were gone a few months later, and of course Braniff itself was gone by 1982.
http://www.departedflights.com/BN060180.html

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 26):

and i believe if it comes to fruition, 2-4x per week, it would still be out of LAX, rather than SFO. The big thing now is that the more proper a/c is available. Rather than a 764 or 772, the 787 possibly makes it a more feasible opportunity.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 28): Should have gone through NRT

Well it seemed like a direct flight for them, and all on UA metal, I am not sure UA serves NRT-HKG anymore?

Quoting malaysia (Reply 33): I am not sure UA serves NRT-HKG anymore?

No they don't. It ended 2 years ago. At the end it was a daily 737-800.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...ng-service-from-late-october-2013/

Quoting malaysia (Reply 33): I am not sure UA serves NRT-HKG anymore?

Looks like they fly it 4 times weekly, M W F Sa. I thought they had terminated it too.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 35): Quoting malaysia (Reply 33): I am not sure UA serves NRT-HKG anymore? Looks like they fly it 4 times weekly, M W F Sa. I thought they had terminated it too.

I can't find any UA flights NRT-HKG-NRT. Where are you looking? Are you sure you're not looking at a UA codeshare flight?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36): I can't find any UA flights NRT-HKG-NRT. Where are you looking?

e.g. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL7989

[Edited 2015-10-15 19:46:52]

Quoting GavinSharp (Reply 37): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36): I can't find any UA flights NRT-HKG-NRT. Where are you looking? e.g. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL7989

That's a codeshare flight, not operated by UA. It's operated by Air Japan under the ANA brand. Check UA's website schedules and it's clearly indicated as a codeshare. It wouldn't be a UA-operated flight with that flight number.

[Edited 2015-10-15 19:52:03]

Argh, you're right. That's embarrassing. I did think the flight # odd, but I thought FlightAware listed the operating carrier on codeshares, didn't see it, and just figured the unusual flight # was because it was a NRT tag-on.

Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter): They also serve some very cool secondary Japanese locations that I would love to get to, without flying through NRT or KIX like Fukuoka, Sapporo and Sendai.

The geography just doesn't work, because Guam is so far from the U.S. as others have pointed out. For example, IAH-GUM-Sapporo is a whopping 8231nm, while going through NRT is only 6197nm. Really only the very far southeast part of the GUM network - like Indonesia - would be efficient for mainland U.S. connections. And with such huge efficiencies with the ANA agreement at NRT, there is really nothing GUM can offer.

This question taught me something new about geography, as I didn't know GUM was that far from the U.S. LAX-AKL is only about 350 miles further than LAX-GUM.

I recently flew UA from Moline to Manila via - wait for it - Denver, Narita, and Guam. It was a long trip, and I had to spend 8.5 hours in Guam, between 10:30pm to 7am. At first I was going to tough it out in the airport, but at the last minute I chickened out and got an airport hotel (using my MileagePlus miles, so it didn't cost me cash). Interestingly, when I checked in in Moline, the agent remarked that someone else had the exact same itinerary a week before! On my way back, I flew Manila-Guam-Honolulu-Denver-Moline. That felt even longer, as it was an overnight (red-eye) on the first leg to Guam, and another overnighter from Honolulu to Denver, but it was crazy because I left Manila late Thursday evening, arrived Guam Friday morning, then arrived Honolulu Thursday afternoon, and landed in Denver Friday morning again! I love the International Date Line! Also, I had to pass through US Immigration twice in Guam (once upon arrival, and then there's another immigration check at the departure gate), had to claim my baggage in Honolulu, pass through Customs, and drop off my bags for the connecting flight to the Mainland. Oh, and since Guam-Honolulu-Denver is considered domestic, all food on board was for purchase! Good thing I packed a couple of tuna sandwiches and Filipino pastries! Anybody else want to connect in Guam???  

Quoting AA777223 (Thread starter): I am puzzled by how UA uses their GUM hub... ...Please let me know your thoughts.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1): The flying such as the secondary Japan markets are meant solely for local tourism and are standalone flights, not designed to flow people across the UA network to the mainland.

  

Guam, Saipan and the other Micronesian islands are primarily intended as markets for Japanese tourists. But don't let that stop you for visiting Guam and those Japanese cities - I've spent some enjoyable days in Japan.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):

Braniff flew Non-stop LAX-GUM using the 747sp back in the 80's

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11): There has been various talk over the years that a non-stop to LAX would be forthcoming, because of the amount of traffic.

Braniff flew Non-stop LAX-GUM using the 747SP back in the 80's

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 42): Guam, Saipan and the other Micronesian islands are primarily intended as markets for Japanese tourists.

Northwest tried a mini hub out of GUM in the mid 90s utilizing 727s. As you and others have said, mostly beach traffic to and from Japan (NGO,FUK,OKA) and SEL and TPE. A few seats on the OKA flights were contracted by the military as NW also ran a DC-10 from HNL to GUM. Some of the 727s were also utilized on SEL-MNL and SEL-TPE for a while and this was an entirely different market.

They closed the base in 1996 but was a great gig for us pilots who were based and lived there. The management said they needed the 72s back on the mainland as air travel was picking up, but we pretty much knew that they couldn't compete with Air Mike who was well established there and had a bigger operation.

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 45): Northwest tried a mini hub out of GUM in the mid 90s utilizing 727s. As you and others have said, mostly beach traffic to and from Japan (NGO,FUK,OKA) and SEL and TPE. A few seats on the OKA flights were contracted by the military as NW also ran a DC-10 from HNL to GUM. Some of the 727s were also utilized on SEL-MNL and SEL-TPE for a while and this was an entirely different market. They closed the base in 1996 but was a great gig for us pilots who were based and lived there. The management said they needed the 72s back on the mainland as air travel was picking up, but we pretty much knew that they couldn't compete with Air Mike who was well established there and had a bigger operation.

Thanks for your post.

I arrived at Air Mike about 16-18 months before the end of the NW base at GUM. It was some good flying (727s and DC10s) and I suspect that I'll never do anything quite like that again.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): I have no idea if UA have contracts with the USAF to fly personnel in & out of GUM for the Anderson Air Base there

To clarify, the US GSA (General Services Administration) sets the per diem rates and airfare contracts for the routine travel of all US Government personnel. The military members are lumped in there for their per diem rates and official travel. DL actually has most of the US Government contracts out of GUM. UA has quite a few as well.

So in short, there are a lot of Federal government employees rotating out of GUM (FBI, Agriculture, etc.), and the US airlines make quite a bit of coin from them. Possibly the second largest source of revenue other than the Asian point of sale (tourists) And yes, some of the US Government official routings to the mainland from GUM route through NRT on DL.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 3): Very good question, I always thought the same. They could serve a huge number of secondary Chinese cities, Vietnam, Indonesia, Bangladesh, maybe Busan even too all from Guam on 737's. They could offer 1 stop flights from all their hubs in the U.S. To these destinations then via Guam. Then they wouldn't need to worry about Japanese currency issues they had complained about with the Narita hub too.

GUM is far out of the way & doesn't have the facilities to operate as a transit hub.

Quoting adamblang (Reply 10): I *think* if you have nonstop GUM-mainland service, you kill the business case for nonstop GUM-HNL service.

The same reason that flight has been from HNL since it's inception with CO Mike, before that GUM was a fuel stop for airlines like TW & PA.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): I have no idea if UA have contracts with the USAF to fly personnel in & out of GUM for the Anderson Air Base there,

All US airlines have military fares & US Government employee rates on all US air routes. When traveling on orders or business, any US Government employee can avail themselves of these rates, SATO used to do the travel for the military, don't know if that's changed, but I've booked many a military fare in my days.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 12): most Americans I spoke to were connected with the USAF in some form or another.

Because that is the vast majority of Americans that go there, I have several military brat friends who spent time on Guam.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16): I don't think United carries many charter passengers, but many of those on leave fly UA through HNL.

Indeed UA's operation in GUM is with the military in mind, although for group movements the military uses their own planes or uses a commercial charter company, but individuals or families traveling on leave or being relocated go via UA more often than not.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20): How many Indonesians are looking for a beach vacation in Guam?

I think the better question would be, how many Military people & families want to visit Indonesia on their leave? Indonesia is an amazing place with inexpensive cost to some aspects of the entire journey.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 27): I was in HNL once and saw a couple checking in for HNL-HKG via GUM on United.

Of course, it's the only way you can get there from HNL on UA, unless you go via NRT then connect to NH. They may have been Hawaii residents & UA frequent flyers are all over the Islands, when I worked in HNL many of my regular corporate travelers were 1k's, only one guy was die hard DL, he would fly HNL-LAX-HKG just to fly DL & always paid F.

Or they could have been on passes as employees of the airline or another carrier that has a reciprocal with UA, the potential reasons are various and many.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 28): Should have gone through NRT

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31): Braniff June 1980 route map. All the Asian routes were gone a few months later, and of course Braniff itself was gone by 1982.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 31): The only carrier that's ever operated nonstop from the U.S. mainland to GUM was Braniff and, like all their short-lived transpacific services, it was a failure. Many of the 747SP flights were almost empty. GUM was a stop to HKG.

         Other than the SIN service that route map is the height of Asia for BN. Sadly those gas guzzling SP's were a huge financial drain on BN & flying them empty was sadly their ruin.

I guess the saying "build it & they will come" from Close Encounters, does not hold true in the airline industry.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 48): Of course, it's the only way you can get there from HNL on UA, unless you go via NRT then connect to NH. They may have been Hawaii residents & UA frequent flyers are all over the Islands, when I worked in HNL many of my regular corporate travelers were 1k's, only one guy was die hard DL, he would fly HNL-LAX-HKG just to fly DL & always paid F. Or they could have been on passes as employees of the airline or another carrier that has a reciprocal with UA, the potential reasons are various and many.

They had paid tickets and were Taiwanese passport holders who resided in Hong Kong.