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Nean1
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 4:12 pm

Fokker, Avro, Dornier, Sukhoi, Bombardier and now Mitsubishi. A long list of ex-competitors.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 4:35 pm

Nean1 wrote:
Fokker, Avro, Dornier, Sukhoi, Bombardier and now Mitsubishi. A long list of ex-competitors.



Not to mention Saab as well as Comac with their failed ARJ21 project.
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T18
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 5:08 pm

Between the delays, scope issues and now the entire landscape being turned on its head by a pandemic its only makes sense that the MRJ/Spacejet is almost certainly doomed now. Do have to wonder what options MHI has to re-coup and salvage from it. Would not be at all shocked for some of the work done to re-appear later on another design down the road (assuming MHI doesn't pull a Bombardier itself and throw in the towel out right). Its really a shame because I wanted to see a new product make the market as I like to see variety in designs and I think that competition drives better products for everyone at the end of the day.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
VV
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 6:32 pm

airhansa wrote:
VV wrote:


So does this mean that all of the former Bombardier employees outside Nagoya, Japan as well?


I do not understand the question.
Perhaps I can say something below, but it might not answer the question.

Firstly, you should differentiate Mitac, its parent company Mitsubishi Heavy Industry (MHI).

Mitac opened a development center in Montreal area. There are currently about 50 employees. this office is now closed and people will have to leave.

MHI acquired CRJ program from Bombardier through a screen company called "MHI RJ Aviation".
All current Bombardier Commercial Aircraft staff (or almost all) are being transferred to MHI RJ Aviation. This includes the customer service centers around the world.

The announcement in the press article concerns only Mitac and not MHI RJ Aviation.

I suspect they would clean the mess at Mitac up before doing a restructuring.

This is only the beginning. I understood there has been an in-depth audit on Mitac organization and their way of doing things. I heard through the grapevine that the organization is so screwed up that it needs a full overhaul.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 7:04 pm

T18 wrote:
Between the delays, scope issues and now the entire landscape being turned on its head by a pandemic its only makes sense that the MRJ/Spacejet is almost certainly doomed now. Do have to wonder what options MHI has to re-coup and salvage from it. Would not be at all shocked for some of the work done to re-appear later on another design down the road (assuming MHI doesn't pull a Bombardier itself and throw in the towel out right). Its really a shame because I wanted to see a new product make the market as I like to see variety in designs and I think that competition drives better products for everyone at the end of the day.


I don't think the program will be scrapped altogether. The Japanese wouldn't want to lose that kind of face. The MRJ is still a good modern and fuel efficent design and can be delivered to the domestic market until the global economy recovers. Look at the deeply flawed ARJ-21 which truly is a cluster**ck. That program is still soldiering on with orders from domestic carriers.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
VSMUT
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 7:24 pm

alberchico wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Fokker, Avro, Dornier, Sukhoi, Bombardier and now Mitsubishi. A long list of ex-competitors.



Not to mention Saab as well as Comac with their failed ARJ21 project.


COMAC isn't going anywhere. Ironically they have what must be the most out of date and underwhelming product out there, but it will succeed purely by the virtue of its ambitious and wealthy backer that can and will force local airlines and those of its proxy states to take them. The C919 will succeed for the same reasons.
 
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T18
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sat May 23, 2020 9:57 pm

alberchico wrote:
T18 wrote:
Between the delays, scope issues and now the entire landscape being turned on its head by a pandemic its only makes sense that the MRJ/Spacejet is almost certainly doomed now. Do have to wonder what options MHI has to re-coup and salvage from it. Would not be at all shocked for some of the work done to re-appear later on another design down the road (assuming MHI doesn't pull a Bombardier itself and throw in the towel out right). Its really a shame because I wanted to see a new product make the market as I like to see variety in designs and I think that competition drives better products for everyone at the end of the day.


I don't think the program will be scrapped altogether. The Japanese wouldn't want to lose that kind of face. The MRJ is still a good modern and fuel efficent design and can be delivered to the domestic market until the global economy recovers. Look at the deeply flawed ARJ-21 which truly is a cluster**ck. That program is still soldiering on with orders from domestic carriers.


Fair enough, I suppose it was bold of me to presume anything about the JDM when I know little of it and ANAs needs.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
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ordell
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 3:11 am

 
Jungleneer
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 3:53 am

I believe that this a movement by the Japanese leadership to re-take the company back. Or maybe they also smelt the burnt in Boeing, and will scrap SpaceJet to restart with something bigger.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 4:51 am

Jungleneer wrote:
I believe that this a movement by the Japanese leadership to re-take the company back. Or maybe they also smelt the burnt in Boeing, and will scrap SpaceJet to restart with something bigger.


Mitsubishi is a zaibatsu over 150 years old, no chance that something like "re-take the company back" could ever happen to it. If Mitsubishi is already having trouble with the Space Jet project scraping it and creating something twice as big won't solve the problem.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 5:36 am

Well, let's face it. Things are royally screwed up in the airline industry. Let's say tomorrow they got this plane approved, it isn't going to fly off the shelves in this environment. They have to deliver, but I'm sure it's gonna be a bit now.

The airplane has good potential for sure.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 2:21 pm

Please keep the thread on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 2:33 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Well, let's face it. Things are royally screwed up in the airline industry. Let's say tomorrow they got this plane approved, it isn't going to fly off the shelves in this environment. They have to deliver, but I'm sure it's gonna be a bit now.

The airplane has good potential for sure.

The issue it faced ignoring COVID was scope was pretty full in the US market. Only replacements coming were the sub 70 seat aircraft, and those were being piecemealed away by Atmosphere CRJ900s and ERJ-175SC. The overwhelming majority of 76 seat jets are 2007 and later. CRJs can be planned to see about a 20 year life, so the replacement market doesn’t kick in until 2027. COVID, cost cutting, and scope contractions further pile misery into the market. If Mitsubishi can slowly and quietly hammer the bugs out and have something ready for 2024-26, there will be a market in the US.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 8:51 pm

Let's face it, the M100 will not see daylight. In the best case scenario Mitsubishi will be able to certify of the M90 in 2024 and start deliveries in 2025 and then maybe they will look back at the M100 if the scope clauses don't chance until there, add more five to ten years to develop it and be certified and we will be talking about a plane that will be put in operation, again, in the best case scenario, in 2030 / 2035 and that it will probably be already out of date in comparison to what Embraer and perhaps Airbus have developed until then.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 9:33 pm

bkmbr wrote:
Let's face it, the M100 will not see daylight. In the best case scenario Mitsubishi will be able to certify of the M90 in 2024 and start deliveries in 2025 and then maybe they will look back at the M100 if the scope clauses don't chance until there, add more five to ten years to develop it and be certified and we will be talking about a plane that will be put in operation, again, in the best case scenario, in 2030 / 2035 and that it will probably be already out of date in comparison to what Embraer and perhaps Airbus have developed until then.

Also true. Best option for them is to scrap the M100, and do a newer design mid-decade, IMHO. Just like Boeing’s NMA, there is a market, just not now.
 
VV
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 9:51 pm

Where is the latest and "certifiable" flight test article?

Are they going to continue the flight tests in Moses lake?
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Sun May 24, 2020 9:55 pm

VV wrote:
Where is the latest and "certifiable" flight test article?

Are they going to continue the flight tests in Moses lake?


The Moses lake base will be closed. Mitsubishi will concentrate the remaining tests at its base in Japan.
Good moaning!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 12:31 am

TonyClifton wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
Let's face it, the M100 will not see daylight. In the best case scenario Mitsubishi will be able to certify of the M90 in 2024 and start deliveries in 2025 and then maybe they will look back at the M100 if the scope clauses don't chance until there, add more five to ten years to develop it and be certified and we will be talking about a plane that will be put in operation, again, in the best case scenario, in 2030 / 2035 and that it will probably be already out of date in comparison to what Embraer and perhaps Airbus have developed until then.

Also true. Best option for them is to scrap the M100, and do a newer design mid-decade, IMHO. Just like Boeing’s NMA, there is a market, just not now.

I actually think there is quite a market for the M100. It is in a unique position.

The EIS should be delayed, due to obvious changes in the market.

For a real competitor, there must be a new lighter engine.

I also think the closing of Moses lake is a really bad sign... I need to think about the implications; they aren't good.

Lightsaber
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TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 1:06 am

lightsaber wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
Let's face it, the M100 will not see daylight. In the best case scenario Mitsubishi will be able to certify of the M90 in 2024 and start deliveries in 2025 and then maybe they will look back at the M100 if the scope clauses don't chance until there, add more five to ten years to develop it and be certified and we will be talking about a plane that will be put in operation, again, in the best case scenario, in 2030 / 2035 and that it will probably be already out of date in comparison to what Embraer and perhaps Airbus have developed until then.

Also true. Best option for them is to scrap the M100, and do a newer design mid-decade, IMHO. Just like Boeing’s NMA, there is a market, just not now.

I actually think there is quite a market for the M100. It is in a unique position.

The EIS should be delayed, due to obvious changes in the market.

For a real competitor, there must be a new lighter engine.

I also think the closing of Moses lake is a really bad sign... I need to think about the implications; they aren't good.

Lightsaber

I fully agree there is a market, the major 76 seat replacements start in around 2027. I think Embraer will be content to pump out ERJ-175s in the mean time to fill the spots here and there.

Think the MRJ as we know it is on ice at best. It might be a very different jet they end up rolling out later in the decade. Or worse, it’s a Dornier 728...
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 3:45 am

The issue of delaying a program too much is that when you issue for a type certification the certification basis is held for 5 years. After this period you need to review it and include the newer regulations. Regulatory material never stops evolving, therefore, probably already performed tests will need to be complemented, new tests will need to be performed, more analyses, this could lead to newer design changes, more money. It is a never ending nightmare. It is comprehensible that the MHI top management eventually decides to pull the plug on it.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 4:00 am

lightsaber wrote:
I actually think there is quite a market for the M100. It is in a unique position.


The M100 have quite a market if they eventually the plane ever becomes reality. Taking into account the problems Mitsubishi had in the development and certification process in the M70 and M90 projects, I think it is certain that, if one day the M100 ever fly, it will arrive late in the market and will have lost the market timing just like what happen to the Hawker Siddeley Trident and the L-1011
Last edited by bkmbr on Mon May 25, 2020 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 4:11 am

TonyClifton wrote:
I fully agree there is a market, the major 76 seat replacements start in around 2027. I think Embraer will be content to pump out ERJ-175s in the mean time to fill the spots here and there.

Think the MRJ as we know it is on ice at best. It might be a very different jet they end up rolling out later in the decade. Or worse, it’s a Dornier 728...


Embraer can always update the ERJ-170 to the E2 standard and (probably) have a scope compliance airplane if minimal reengineering if the necessity shows. If there's really a market for it in the next 3 years and the scope clauses really stand there's a big chance que Embraer would not trow away the chance of being the only company able to supply those airplanes to the american market before 2035.
 
VV
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 7:58 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
VV wrote:
Where is the latest and "certifiable" flight test article?

Are they going to continue the flight tests in Moses lake?


The Moses lake base will be closed. Mitsubishi will concentrate the remaining tests at its base in Japan.


I read some news articles about the latest move by Mitsubishi Heavy Industry and Mitac.

It seems they are going to maintain a very small team in Moses lake to take care of four flight test articles there. Otherwise the flight test operation in Moses Lake will shut down.
Are they serious to proceed with one flight test article toward certification?

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... et-budget/ - Emphasis added
Seattle Times wrote:
The four test aircraft that have been flying in Moses Lake will be put into storage, and the fifth flight test plane — the first updated with a new configuration — will not fly to the U.S. as planned just a month ago, but will stay in Japan.

Dronen said Mitsubishi will retain “a small crew” at Moses Lake to put in storage and maintain the four flight test aircraft there.

Mitsubishi is still working out the details of its budget cuts and did not disclose the precise numbers of employees affected nor whether severance packages will be offered. Dronen said management “will provide this information directly to employees in the coming weeks.”


The whole thing does not make much sense. It looks like a deep revamp of Mitac is on going.

I bet some heads will roll. Get the guillotine prepared!
https://www.mitsubishiaircraft.com/about
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 3:11 pm

bkmbr wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
I fully agree there is a market, the major 76 seat replacements start in around 2027. I think Embraer will be content to pump out ERJ-175s in the mean time to fill the spots here and there.

Think the MRJ as we know it is on ice at best. It might be a very different jet they end up rolling out later in the decade. Or worse, it’s a Dornier 728...


Embraer can always update the ERJ-170 to the E2 standard and (probably) have a scope compliance airplane if minimal reengineering if the necessity shows. If there's really a market for it in the next 3 years and the scope clauses really stand there's a big chance que Embraer would not trow away the chance of being the only company able to supply those airplanes to the american market before 2035.

Yep, just depends whether they have the appetite for re-engineering the E2. The lack of orders on it could mean they take the time to readjust the aircraft, while pressing ahead with the -190. As an aside, life would have been much easier if they called it the -290?!
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 3:41 pm

bkmbr wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I actually think there is quite a market for the M100. It is in a unique position.


The M100 have quite a market if they eventually the plane ever becomes reality.


M100 is just a paper plane.
MITAC couldn’t deliver what they promised on June 2007 when they launched the MRJ at Paris Air Show.
Now the M100 project is in the fridge but some insists that it will see the light anytime soon ... no way !
Forget it about !

Next step to MITAC:
- shelve the M90 and stop to loosing money on the “Lazy Godzilla” ...
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 4:07 pm

Being parts and equipment supplier is where the real profit margins are in the aerospace industry. MHI is already a supplier, and if they are smart, they move from being airframe developer to be a systems integration, subsystems or airframe parts supplier. This last one they already are.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 4:18 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
As an aside, life would have been much easier if they called it the -290?!


I don't see how changing the name to 290 would help. This is just a marketing name and have nothing to do with the technical specification of the airplane. They could rename it to Embraer Willy Wonka Jet that's not the reason an airliner would buy it anyway.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Mon May 25, 2020 4:23 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Next step to MITAC:
- shelve the M90 and stop to loosing money on the “Lazy Godzilla” ...


I don't believe that the M90 will be shelved by Mitsubishi because of a matter of Japanese pride in admitting that kind of defeat, but probably the M90 will have the same commercial fate as the NAMC YS-11 had, a nice plane but a commercial failure.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:24 pm

Good moaning!
 
docmtl
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:41 pm

MHI stops all flying and development of the SpaceJet program, reevaluating cost and timeframe.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/mitsubishi-halts-all-spacejet-flying-production-winding-down-zero

SSJ is next ?

Embraer will end up the sole survivor in its class for the foreseeable future...

docmtl
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:04 pm

Such a shame. Like the Dornier 728, a jet that just couldn’t get it’s ducks in a row.
 
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ADent
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:58 pm

Wow. No flying of the conforming unit until cost cutting measures are complete and a plan to type certification is approved. No production until TC.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:06 pm

bkmbr wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Next step to MITAC:
- shelve the M90 and stop to loosing money on the “Lazy Godzilla” ...


I don't believe that the M90 will be shelved by Mitsubishi because of a matter of Japanese pride in admitting that kind of defeat, but probably the M90 will have the same commercial fate as the NAMC YS-11 had, a nice plane but a commercial failure.

I think we can agree, already a commercial failure.

This was a project as if done without the right technical supervision. Many small but costly mistakes that added up.

I hope it happens, but it wouldn't be the first plane I rooted for that didn't see service...

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:09 am

lightsaber wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Next step to MITAC:
- shelve the M90 and stop to loosing money on the “Lazy Godzilla” ...


I don't believe that the M90 will be shelved by Mitsubishi because of a matter of Japanese pride in admitting that kind of defeat, but probably the M90 will have the same commercial fate as the NAMC YS-11 had, a nice plane but a commercial failure.

I think we can agree, already a commercial failure.

This was a project as if done without the right technical supervision. Many small but costly mistakes that added up.

I hope it happens, but it wouldn't be the first plane I rooted for that didn't see service...

Lightsaber

Hopefully the bruises can provide some education for the next attempt. I truly believe the MRJ as a base can be the next gen RJ. Just needs proper design from the outside.
 
Nean1
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:44 am

Next step will be selling CRJ Program back to Bombardier for USD 200 million ...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:22 am

TonyClifton wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
bkmbr wrote:

I don't believe that the M90 will be shelved by Mitsubishi because of a matter of Japanese pride in admitting that kind of defeat, but probably the M90 will have the same commercial fate as the NAMC YS-11 had, a nice plane but a commercial failure.

I think we can agree, already a commercial failure.

This was a project as if done without the right technical supervision. Many small but costly mistakes that added up.

I hope it happens, but it wouldn't be the first plane I rooted for that didn't see service...

Lightsaber

Hopefully the bruises can provide some education for the next attempt. I truly believe the MRJ as a base can be the next gen RJ. Just needs proper design from the outside.

I believe it is a great design and can be saved. It should be the next gen RJ. It has proven customers want a next gen RJ. But Mitsubishi proved they would rush in without proper audits of details (wiring). The we'll figure it out works fine for cars, not for aircraft.

I'm not giving up, but Mitsubishi must commit the money and shouldn't without a good review.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
VV
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:58 am

If the production is halted then the entry into service slips again to 2023 at the earliest.

The most likely date is for 2023.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:44 pm

VV wrote:
If the production is halted then the entry into service slips again to 2023 at the earliest.

The most likely date is for 2023.

Not the worst thing. The market for new purchases will likely be bare until then at least.
 
VV
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:17 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
VV wrote:
If the production is halted then the entry into service slips again to 2023 at the earliest.

The most likely date is for 2023.

Not the worst thing. The market for new purchases will likely be bare until then at least.


No. The market will rebound much faster than those pessimistic guys say. They are way too pessimistic.

If they cannot accelerate the certification to 2022 then Embraer will get the market.
If there is no demand for E2 by 2022 then it means the market for that segment is not going to grow anyway and Mitsubishi can close the SpaceJet program.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:38 pm

VV wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
VV wrote:
If the production is halted then the entry into service slips again to 2023 at the earliest.

The most likely date is for 2023.

Not the worst thing. The market for new purchases will likely be bare until then at least.


No. The market will rebound much faster than those pessimistic guys say. They are way too pessimistic.

If they cannot accelerate the certification to 2022 then Embraer will get the market.
If there is no demand for E2 by 2022 then it means the market for that segment is not going to grow anyway and Mitsubishi can close the SpaceJet program.

Even if the market rebounds, scope is mostly full for large RJs, save for a few top ups here and there as planes shift around (such as the conversion to 65 seat jets at AA). I think Mitsubishi’s best move is regather and put together lessons learned, then aim for a post 2025 RJ,
 
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ADent
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:28 pm

With M100 development “dropped” the M90 SpaceJet’s biggest competitor is the E2 175 (80 pass vs 88 for M90 and 114 for E2 190).

Not a healthy market worldwide - and sales proof in the US.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:37 pm

ADent wrote:
With M100 development “dropped” the M90 SpaceJet’s biggest competitor is the E2 175 (80 pass vs 88 for M90 and 114 for E2 190).


After a decade on development and away from it’s certification, the biggest competitor to M90 is the M90 itself ...
 
bkmbr
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:58 am

ADent wrote:
With M100 development “dropped” the M90 SpaceJet’s biggest competitor is the E2 175 (80 pass vs 88 for M90 and 114 for E2 190).

Not a healthy market worldwide - and sales proof in the US.


Both the M90 and the 175E2 have 88 pax with a 31 in pitch but the 175E2 can go up to 90 pax max with a 29 in pitch in a single class configuration. 80 pax on the 175E2 is only if you have the 2 class configuration, the M90 have max 81 pax in the same configuration.
 
VV
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:15 am

TonyClifton wrote:
...
Even if the market rebounds, scope is mostly full for large RJs, save for a few top ups here and there as planes shift around (such as the conversion to 65 seat jets at AA). I think Mitsubishi’s best move is regather and put together lessons learned, then aim for a post 2025 RJ,


Post 2025 RJ? That is too far away in the future, by then they would have spent more than eight billion US dollars on the SpaceJet project.

Or did you mean Mitsubishi should scrap SpaceJet and launch another program?
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:53 pm

VV wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
...
Even if the market rebounds, scope is mostly full for large RJs, save for a few top ups here and there as planes shift around (such as the conversion to 65 seat jets at AA). I think Mitsubishi’s best move is regather and put together lessons learned, then aim for a post 2025 RJ,


Post 2025 RJ? That is too far away in the future, by then they would have spent more than eight billion US dollars on the SpaceJet project.

Or did you mean Mitsubishi should scrap SpaceJet and launch another program?


The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride as appears to me, I doubt that they will scrap the entire project.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:07 pm

bkmbr wrote:
VV wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
...
Even if the market rebounds, scope is mostly full for large RJs, save for a few top ups here and there as planes shift around (such as the conversion to 65 seat jets at AA). I think Mitsubishi’s best move is regather and put together lessons learned, then aim for a post 2025 RJ,


Post 2025 RJ? That is too far away in the future, by then they would have spent more than eight billion US dollars on the SpaceJet project.

Or did you mean Mitsubishi should scrap SpaceJet and launch another program?


The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride as appears to me, I doubt that they will scrap the entire project.

I think the M90 continues for now, but the M100 would be greatly redesigned before it emerges again.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:33 pm

bkmbr wrote:
The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride.

Tell it to the shareholders and try to convince them ...
 
VV
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:37 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
...
The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride as appears to me, I doubt that they will scrap the entire project.

I think the M90 continues for now, but the M100 would be greatly redesigned before it emerges again.


What do you mean by redesign?
Would it lose the commonality with M90?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:59 pm

VV wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
...
The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride as appears to me, I doubt that they will scrap the entire project.

I think the M90 continues for now, but the M100 would be greatly redesigned before it emerges again.


What do you mean by redesign?
Would it lose the commonality with M90?

That I don’t know. Depends on where the M90 is, and the market. They could push ahead with a scope compliant shrink, or pivot it to a design based upon M90 and what they’ve learned. Clean sheet but also not really. They have time to get it right, for the replacement cycle later in the decade.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Flight Test & Production Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:23 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
The Space Jet program is already a matter of national pride.

Tell it to the shareholders and try to convince them ...


Most of them are Japanese as far as I could check. According to wikipedia Mitsubishi Heavy Industries has a controlling 64% of the shares of the Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation company, while Toyota Motor Corporation and Mitsubishi Corporation each own 10% of the shares. Other shareholders include Sumitomo Corporation and Mitsui & Co.

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