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Polot
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:56 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

And they again postponned the e175e2 entry into service due to the monopoly in the market.

No, they postponed it because the E175E2 is too heavy for US scope clauses, so they don’t really have any customers that can operate the plane. It’s not because of Embraer’s monopoly position-they have already built and flown the E175E2, and they would like a return on their investment by delivering it to airlines.


KLM and other european and international users would buy for sure.So why delay the process?

Because KLM and other European and international users have not bought the E175E2. I’m sure Embraer has pitched it to them.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:07 pm

Polot wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
No, they postponed it because the E175E2 is too heavy for US scope clauses, so they don’t really have any customers that can operate the plane. It’s not because of Embraer’s monopoly position-they have already built and flown the E175E2, and they would like a return on their investment by delivering it to airlines.


KLM and other european and international users would buy for sure.So why delay the process?

Because KLM and other European and international users have not bought the E175E2. I’m sure Embraer has pitched it to them.

Thats strange. Why?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:36 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
KLM and other european and international users would buy for sure.So why delay the process?

Because KLM and other European and international users have not bought the E175E2. I’m sure Embraer has pitched it to them.

Thats strange. Why?

A first guess would be the plane is using PW1000 family engines, and even in their shrunken variant PW1700, they are not optimized for the platform. International customers decide the E2E19X offer similar trip costs with more revenue potential so they prefer those. Again, this is just a guess, comments are welcomed.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:41 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

KLM and other european and international users would buy for sure.So why delay the process?

Because KLM and other European and international users have not bought the E175E2. I’m sure Embraer has pitched it to them.

Thats strange. Why?


Way too have for its size, especially for Europe where the „regionals“ literally are that, their stage lenght is very short so the aircraft has to be very light, otherwise you better get the 290 or 295.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, could in theory US3's unions hand the US3 a list of their wants in return to raise the MTOW limit for RJ's to let's say 100,000lbs? Or are they waiting for the US3 to become more desperate? I personally feel this is great leverage to get some of the gripes with their respective contracts addressed.

Their biggest gripe is they gave away so much work to the regionals. A large percentage of those now flying with the majors lived the life of a regional pilot and know how much it sucked. I doubt they'd make any concessions in a time of pilot shortages.

Exactly. There's nothing in it for the mainline pilot unions.
Maybe, if the whole "APA hates the guts of ALPA, ALPA hates the guts of APA" sort of thing was still going on big time, there might have been a wedge driven between e.g. AA (APA) and their regionals (mainly ALPA, AFAIR?). But that time has passed.
Nearly every regional pilot would prefer to be a mainline pilot. Most mainline pilots would prefer the scope clauses to be, like they were before 1978: "Every flight of airline XYZ has to be flown by pilots on the seniority list of airline XYZ". Getting to that position is a "return to normalcy" for them.
Why should they hamper this "return to normalcy", especially if it's happening naturally, without their intervention?
 
Nean1
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:21 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Will mitsubishi start manufactering crj550's again?


No way -- the market has moved on. The 550 mod is a way to maximizing returns on the existing aircraft considering current scope limitations.


https://airinsight.com/what-is-mitsubis ... o-do-next/

This article brings a proposal that might work, despite the restrictions of the Scope Clauses. Basically they present the PW800 engine as a possible replacement for the GE CF-34.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:57 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

And they again postponned the e175e2 entry into service due to the monopoly in the market.

No, they postponed it because the E175E2 is too heavy for US scope clauses, so they don’t really have any customers that can operate the plane. It’s not because of Embraer’s monopoly position-they have already built and flown the E175E2, and they would like a return on their investment by delivering it to airlines.


KLM and other european and international users would buy for sure.So why delay the process?


Well....They have no orders period. Not a single one. There was an order for Skywest but that's dead since I don't think the e175-e2 even applies for the larger regional jet scope clause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_E2_family
 
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SQ22
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:04 pm

Subject of Discussion is the Mitsubishi SpaceJet, so please keep this thread on topic, thanks.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:05 pm

Also, does anyone know what's the deal with the M90 and M100 and the scope clause? Does the M100 still apply for the larger regional jet category, or is it simply too big? same with the m90 and the 76 seat limit smaller jet?
 
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Polot
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:12 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
Also, does anyone know what's the deal with the M90 and M100 and the scope clause? Does the M100 still apply for the larger regional jet category, or is it simply too big? same with the m90 and the 76 seat limit smaller jet?

The M90 is too large, in both number of seats and weight, for US scope clauses. The M100 (which somewhat confusingly is smaller than the M90) was being purposely designed to meet US scope clause weight requirements that the E175E2 misses with a smaller wing along with the obviously shorter fuselage compared to the M90.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:40 pm

Polot wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
Also, does anyone know what's the deal with the M90 and M100 and the scope clause? Does the M100 still apply for the larger regional jet category, or is it simply too big? same with the m90 and the 76 seat limit smaller jet?

The M90 is too large, in both number of seats and weight, for US scope clauses. The M100 (which somewhat confusingly is smaller than the M90) was being purposely designed to meet US scope clause weight requirements that the E175E2 misses with a smaller wing along with the obviously shorter fuselage compared to the M90.


got the M90 and M100 mixed up but thanks for answering. So I guess the Skywest 100 M90 order needs updating just like the 100 e175-e2 order did.

Mesa still has 50 of the M100 on order and will be the launch customer if it ever comes to fruition. the M100 if they can ever bring it to marked could be the successes that mitsubishi needs. My guess is these aircrafts are united bound.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:48 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
Also, does anyone know what's the deal with the M90 and M100 and the scope clause? Does the M100 still apply for the larger regional jet category, or is it simply too big? same with the m90 and the 76 seat limit smaller jet?

The M90 is too large, in both number of seats and weight, for US scope clauses. The M100 (which somewhat confusingly is smaller than the M90) was being purposely designed to meet US scope clause weight requirements that the E175E2 misses with a smaller wing along with the obviously shorter fuselage compared to the M90.


got the M90 and M100 mixed up but thanks for answering. So I guess the Skywest 100 M90 order needs updating just like the 100 e175-e2 order did.

Mesa still has 50 of the M100 on order and will be the launch customer if it ever comes to fruition. the M100 if they can ever bring it to marked could be the successes that mitsubishi needs. My guess is these aircrafts are united bound.


Why did they stop the project??????????????They had a superior product compared to the E175e2
 
Nean1
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:44 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
The M90 is too large, in both number of seats and weight, for US scope clauses. The M100 (which somewhat confusingly is smaller than the M90) was being purposely designed to meet US scope clause weight requirements that the E175E2 misses with a smaller wing along with the obviously shorter fuselage compared to the M90.


got the M90 and M100 mixed up but thanks for answering. So I guess the Skywest 100 M90 order needs updating just like the 100 e175-e2 order did.

Mesa still has 50 of the M100 on order and will be the launch customer if it ever comes to fruition. the M100 if they can ever bring it to marked could be the successes that mitsubishi needs. My guess is these aircrafts are united bound.


Why did they stop the project??????????????They had a superior product compared to the E175e2


There is certainly more than one reason:
1) They need to listen to the experts who hired and redesign a large part of the plane for US certification authorities to agree;
2) GTF turbines are big and heavy. The M100 aircraft would not be able to offer an economic advantage over the current 175E1, which still have many years in operation.
3) Japan woke up to the need to review its defense industry in the face of the enormous challenge posed by an assertive China that does not respect current borders. I believe that government support for this civil project is no longer the same.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:41 pm

Nean1 wrote:
There is certainly more than one reason:
1) They need to listen to the experts who hired and redesign a large part of the plane for US certification authorities to agree;


Any insight into what was recommended to be redesigned?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:05 pm

Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:21 pm

Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?

Airfleets says 640 or therabouts are flown by US airlines. Out of ~800 currently flying, and 880 ever built.

So yeah, you are rather right, 170-175 is US-focused.

Doesn't mean no market outside of the US, but for example Hop! and S7 picked up theirs second-hand. Possibly opportunistically.
KLM and LOT, on the other hand, took theirs new. No idea if they came to regret the decision.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:21 pm

Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?

Klm has them
Alitalia had them
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?



Probably not, with the exception of Canada. Outside of the United States and Canada, there are only 8 operators of the E175. Out of the 668 E175s delivered 562 are operated by American carriers that's 84%.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?



Probably not, with the exception of Canada. Outside of the United States and Canada, there are only 8 operators of the E175. Out of the 668 E175s delivered 562 are operated by American carriers that's 84%.

Means Mitsubishi lost a significant market by stopping their production of Spacejet.
 
RobertoMugabe
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:04 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?



Probably not, with the exception of Canada. Outside of the United States and Canada, there are only 8 operators of the E175. Out of the 668 E175s delivered 562 are operated by American carriers that's 84%.

Means Mitsubishi lost a significant market by stopping their production of Spacejet.


Any possibility of Boeing buying the progam out and finishing out the design? Space in the Everett factory will open after the 47 line is complete and 87 rework is done. It would fit well in Boeing's NB portfolio and with the close relation Boeing has with Mitsubishi they'd probably be willing to sell it out.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:07 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Is there any demand for a 76 seater outside the US ? Wasn't the E170-E175 already a US only deal, basically ?



Probably not, with the exception of Canada. Outside of the United States and Canada, there are only 8 operators of the E175. Out of the 668 E175s delivered 562 are operated by American carriers that's 84%.

Means Mitsubishi lost a significant market by stopping their production of Spacejet.


That doesn't even include the CR7s and CR9s that need replacing which is at approximately 580 jets. Like the E175 the United States operates the majority of planes worldwide. 89% of the CR7 and 71% of the CR9. That's a market of at least 1250 planes. Even if the market is split equally with Embraer that's an order book of at least 600 planes. We will see the MRJ again, probably with a partner this go around. I do believe scope relief will happen with the US3 but it won't be cheap
 
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keesje
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:07 pm

When the A220 was sold to to Airbus, it was fuly understood, The A220 had proved to be a sound aircraft.
That's my worry with the Spacejet, MHI had to redesign themselves already.

Image
https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/18/surro ... t-testing/

Is the design ok, supply chain committed, is all the paperwork ok, complete, english?
Anyone considering to invest in the program will do an extensive Due diligence..

Even Airbus might consider if it's a solid program. The A220 is way bigger than this aircraft & the A220-100 backlog is already evaporating.
https://groups.google.com/group/aviatio ... 0.1&view=1
 
Nean1
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:38 am

keesje wrote:
When the A220 was sold to to Airbus, it was fuly understood, The A220 had proved to be a sound aircraft.
That's my worry with the Spacejet, MHI had to redesign themselves already.

Image
https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/18/surro ... t-testing/

Is the design ok, supply chain committed, is all the paperwork ok, complete, english?
Anyone considering to invest in the program will do an extensive Due diligence..

Even Airbus might consider if it's a solid program. The A220 is way bigger than this aircraft & the A220-100 backlog is already evaporating.
https://groups.google.com/group/aviatio ... 0.1&view=1


The extent of the redesign shows that the designers were absolutely adrift, which in itself is a major concern. When Embraer launched the E1 family, it found a well-established competitor and had to stand out with an aircraft of a much more modern design and a level of comfort equal to or higher than that offered of single-aisle aircraft.
Mitsubishi does not have this advantage and may be triple surrounded by the 175E1, 175E2 and TPE3. The surprising effect and the magic of "Japanese quality" evaporated. I don't see Boeing being very interested in participating in all of this after all the fuss about Max.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:38 am

I'm hopeful the program will restart again soon. The market is definitely going to get better as we get this pandemic behind us. Talk about some bad timing for the program. How far along did the testing program get? Are all the test planes grounded still?

I could see someone like Skywest being interested in it.
 
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ordell
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:41 am

So what became of the test planes in Moses Lake?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Mitsubishi SpaceJet — Development & Production Thread

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:26 am

ordell wrote:
So what became of the test planes in Moses Lake?


They are either still stored at Moses Lake or back in Japan.

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