queb
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:01 pm

Dassault stopped the production of the Falcon SA)">5X because Snecma is having big technical problem with the Silvercrest. Engine deliveries are deferred for at least 12-18 months, some parts have to be re-designed.

In french:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article...la-production-du-falcon-5x.N358469

From this article

Quote:
...all the tests "confirms the good performance of the engine in operation." The engine builds up 3200 hours of testing, including 310 flight hours and 1600 cycles. "This test campaign has nevertheless highlighted the need for developing supplements to maximize the life and performance of the engine operations, says someone at Snecma. In particular, this implies better deformation control of the housings linked to very high temperatures. Neither integrity of the engine, or its ability to meet certification requirements are challenged."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/safrans-...ise-15-in-third-quarter-1445490001

Quote:
Safran is still working on a revised schedule for its new Silvercrest engine being developed to power business jets. Setbacks in developing the engine’s power plant could jeopardize plans by Dassault Aviation SA to deliver a new plane model starting next year.

“The adjustments will ensure that we offer customers an engine which meets their requirements and is competitive with respect to the market it addresses,” Safran said.

Potential penalties are capped and covered by provisions, the company said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...th-boeing-airbus-on-raising-output

Quote:
it cautioned that development of its Silvercrest engine for corporate jets is having difficulty meeting fuel efficiency targets and will require further investment.




[Edited 2015-10-22 06:03:14]
 
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Cyow
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:41 pm

RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Will this be a trijet? If so, what is the expected range?
"Broadsword calling Danny Boy"
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:22 pm

More details from AIN.

The immediate problem with the Silvercrest involves slight deformation of the engine casing during high-temperature testing. The deformation could cause the engine to fall short of performance guarantees made to Dassault. Snecma plans to make modifications to address the deformation.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-10-22/falcon-5x-timing-still-unclear-new-engine-issue-surfaces
 
rwessel
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Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting cyow (Reply 1):
Will this be a trijet? If so, what is the expected range?

No, the 5X is a twin; the 7X is a tri-jet. Range is expected to be something like 5200nm.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting queb (Thread starter):
Engine deliveries are deferred for at least 12-18 months, some parts have to be re-designed.

Wow! That is a major setback for this aircraft development program.   Hope they can overcome this blow without too many negative consequences.
 
AirbusCanada
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 4):
Wow! That is a major setback for this aircraft development program.   Hope they can overcome this blow without too many negative consequences.

Yes, but Falcon wasn't planning to deliver too many 5X in the first 12 months anyways. Possibly less than 10.
Business jets don't sell in high volume like commercial aircraft.
 
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EPA001
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Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 5):
Yes, but Falcon wasn't planning to deliver too many 5X in the first 12 months anyways. Possibly less than 10.

Ah, thanks for this additional information of which I was not aware.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Falcon 5X Production Stopped After Engine Delay

Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:29 am

Wow...

I knew of some redesigns in the oil cooling system, but this is more serious than what I was aware of.

This is going to cost the Falcon 5X the lead to entry into service over the G500 that it was going to have. Gulfstream will now enter the same price point earlier and thus attract market interest. The 5X just forfeited the first mover advantage.

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 2):
The immediate problem with the Silvercrest involves slight deformation of the engine casing during high-temperature testing.

That is significant... That implies a new casing which is non-trivial. The other parts would need a few months redesign, a few months for manufacturing, a few months for part qualification, then a few months of flight testing. A casing... is a *much* longer lead time item.  
Quoting rwessel (Reply 3):
No, the 5X is a twin; the 7X is a tri-jet. Range is expected to be something like 5200nm.

This could impact engine selection of the trijet 9X.    Ok, enough off topic, but I personally like the trijet concept for a business jet and am looking forward to getting more information on what Dassault might offer.   

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 5):
Yes, but Falcon wasn't planning to deliver too many 5X in the first 12 months anyways. Possibly less than 10.
Business jets don't sell in high volume like commercial aircraft.

Unfortunately, Falcon is hurting for deliveries. The 7X has just met the market demand and customers were waiting for something with more range, the 8X. The Falcon 2000 has been in an interesting niche: lowest cost TATL aircraft. That niche is now pressured by used Gulfstreams, in particular the older GIV/G400s that are coming onto the market).

Now part of Falcon's issue is that right now the US business jet market is stronger than Europe (including Russia). I will comment that Falcon is now also facing much stronger competition in the mid-east due to Gulfstream investing more in that region's sales/service.

Article on US used business jet buyers buying up European planes:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-bargain-buyers-with-strong-dollar

Yes, I am aware of how close the Falcon 8X is getting to delivery, but it isn't bringing in revenue yet (on schedule 2H2016):
http://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/Med...ages/PR%202015/Falcon8Xupdate.aspx

But Falcon is treading water in 2015 with revenue to be boosted in 2016 by the 8X and 2017 further by the 5X. If there is a year delay to first flight, I would expect a year delay on delivery.  

Article on deliveries down, but orders soaring on 5X/8x:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...falcon-deliveries-down-orders-soar

Article noting only 5 net Falcon sales in 2015 (not all bad, that is 25 orders minus 20 cancelations from Netjets, but how many were 5X sales?)
http://www.avbuyer.com/articles/busi...izav-market-trends-september-2015/

So unfortunately this delay has a significant sales impact as the Falcon 900/2000/7X are not selling like they did even a few years ago. I was unable to find the link on 1H2015 Falcon deliveries, but I recall them being down even further from 2014 (which wasn't a good year).

Note: Personally I'm an extreme fan of the Silvercrest. I'm going to admit I looked into the engine design/cost structure in detail as... well it is competing against an engine I wanted to win the Falcon 9x engine (PW812). I came away impressed with the Silvercrest's value proposition and elegant engineering.

Now personally, it is an interesting engine choice for the 5X (rather high end plane with a cost saving engine, but Dassault has done that again and again with the Falcons). For the Cessna Longitude, it really is the only currently available engine choice (the PW812 is *far* too expensive for that airframe).

Lightsaber
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