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KarelXWB
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Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:23 pm

The 737 MAX achieved another milestone: first power-on.

Note the new large flight deck displays:



Source http://www.boeing.com/
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AA737-823
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Interesting to note that the overhead P5 panel is EXACTLY THE SAME as before.
I thought I'd read that it would be updated.
Oh well, it works.
The bigger disappointment is that the six-pack hasn't vanished into the 1950's filing cabinet it belongs in.
 
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n901wa
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:20 pm

I'm with you AA737-823. That 6-pack switch sucks to change, I hope maybe they changed the back so it's not hard wired and maybe a plug and play switch now.
 
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:33 pm

Congrats to Boeing! I like the displays and relocation and size reduction of the gear handle, but was wondering if there are significant changes in the actual electrical system compared to the NG?

[Edited 2015-10-24 11:37:16]
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:44 pm

Looking good! Congrats Boeing!   

Bigger screens looks very modern!
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AntonovA330
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
The bigger disappointment is that the six-pack hasn't vanished into the 1950's filing cabinet it belongs in.
Quoting n901wa (Reply 2):
I'm with you AA737-823. That 6-pack switch sucks to change, I hope maybe they changed the back so it's not hard wired and maybe a plug and play switch now.

Pardon my ignorance - which switch(es) are you referring to?
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starrymarkb
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:34 pm

I'm guessing they mean The Master Caution System.

This Flight Sim link http://www.flaps2approach.com/journa...ystem-six-packs-installed-and.html explains a bit more (of course with regards to a home cockpit build but it does explain what the switches do)
 
DDR
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:42 pm

I just can't get excited, try as I might. A 737 is a 737. Come on Boeing, give us something new.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 7):
I just can't get excited, try as I might. A 737 is a 737. Come on Boeing, give us something new.

787, 777X. There is a whole product line. In the meantime the WNs and ASs need new 737s.
 
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 8):

Yes but the 737 is nothing new. It's just a 737 tweaked. Don't get me wrong, Boeing has created perhaps the best airliner ever, with the 787. I applaud them for this excellent aircraft. But the 737 is just old. How about something new and wider?
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 7):

I just can't get excited, try as I might. A 737 is a 737. Come on Boeing, give us something new.

I'm entirely with you. It's a just another reheated 737 at the end of the day. Not something that get's me even remotely excited.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:15 pm

I believe Boeing knows that the MAX is just a placeholder for an eventual narrow body replacement based on using more composite airframe technology. First however they need to start showing a profit on the 787.
 
catiii
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 10):

I'm entirely with you. It's a just another reheated 737 at the end of the day. Not something that get's me even remotely excited.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Respectfully, it's not about getting you excited. It's about exciting the marketplace which, with almost 2900 firm orders, appears pretty excited.
 
StTim
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting HiflyerAS (Reply 11):
First however they need to start showing a profit on the 787.

Might be a while then ...
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 10):

I'm entirely with you. It's a just another reheated 737 at the end of the day. Not something that get's me even remotely excited.

Luckily for Boeing, others are excited enough to order them in big blocks.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 8):
In the meantime the WNs and ASs need new 737s.

  
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:24 pm

Lot of sour grapes here. It must really stick in peoples craw that the 737 can continue to compete successfully.

At the end of the day airlines don't give a hoot how old a products lineage is. All they care for is cold hard numbers and cold hard cash in their pockets. The 737 delivers that. So it continues to sell and will be updated as long as Boeing and their customers see life in it.

The MAX also seems to be developing quickly. Doesn't seem like all to long ago we read that the first panels were coming together!
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:01 am

When the costs of developing a new airframe are on the order of $10 billion at the minimum (and not one has ever come in even close to budget) requiring 7-10 years to get to market and the cost of renewing the old airframe are on the order of 2-3 billion and requiring about half the time, it becomes very, very difficult to justify the new design when the renewed one will probably sell 90% of the sales that the new one would get. The new airframe will come about when there is technology that will make it enough better to justify (and by that I mean selling enough frames that the renewed version would not sell and selling at a significantly higher price) the investment. The new plane, with the technology available today, just simply would not be enough better than the MAX to make it a financially viable proposition. Yes, it would be a better plane, but not 10% better.
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:16 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 10):
I'm entirely with you. It's a just another reheated 737 at the end of the day. Not something that get's me even remotely excited.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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TheRedBaron
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:17 am

Contrats Boeing looking forward to first engine run an all that smoke!!!

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zeke
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:22 am

Making good progress, looking forward to the first flight
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Max Q
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:42 am

Still see the ancient 707 era trim wheels, overhead (will Pilots still have to place generators on line manually ?!)
and annunciator panel.



Its a good aircraft that succeeds despite many design features frozen in the '60's !
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speedbird2263
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):

Bombardier was able to clean up quite a bit on the flightdeck of the CRJ-200 relative to the CRJ-700/900/1000. Like Auto-Generators and Auto-Bleeds vs Manual switching of Gens and bleeds. I for one will be disappointed from a Pilot's perspective if these issues weren't addressed on the Max. I can understand integration issues for a MD-88 but an NG design?

  
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:45 am

Is there a larger version of that flight deck picture? I don't see it anywhere on the Boeing site.
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:48 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 7):
I just can't get excited, try as I might. A 737 is a 737. Come on Boeing, give us something new.

I'm a huge 737 fan, and I'm excited for the MAX!

But Boeing needs to do something new, and they will! Just give them time  
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Passedv1
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
The bigger disappointment is that the six-pack hasn't vanished into the 1950's filing cabinet it belongs in.

The entire airplane should have been left in the cabinet.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 16):
The new airframe will come about when there is technology that will make it enough better to justify (and by that I mean selling enough frames that the renewed version would not sell and selling at a significantly higher price) the investment.

As an airline pilot I have to say that the announcement of the 737-MAX was one of the more disappointing announcements (not counting the really big ones of course...9/11, 65, etc.)

I may have a cynical view, but I have a hard time believing that Boeing will ever have N/B airplane that is not a 737. If you compare a 737-100 to a 737-MAX9...the difference in these two airplanes is so large, that the FAA's consideration of the two as the same type is absolutely laughable. Exactly what is the limit to calling something a same type?

The FAA's determinations in what things allow a type to be kept the same completely arbitrary and non-nonsensical, at least from the flight-deck point of view. There determinations in what is allowed to be changed and not changed is actually making flying less-safe. You can't change a switch to a button, you can't change a ridicules antiquated "six-pack" warning system that has so many electric contacts that need to be maintained that it doesn't even work properly a large portion of the time. How many times do crews have to switch hydraulic pumps off when they are going for the engine anti-off switches, how many times do crews have to misdiagnose generator drive failures for simple bus-off lights (it happens ALL THE TIME). Can we at least get all the "normal" switch positions oriented properly. No ice detection system, no de-icing on the tail....just increase ref 10 knots...no problem. How about a 3 axis auto-pilot, wouldn't it be nice to not have to perform auto-lands sideways. To have so much of the flying in the world not able to benefit from what would be great design improvements is a real travesty. Boeing can't install an EICAS system in the airplane because apparently that triggers a new type, but it can install engines with twice as much thrust, on an airplane twice as heavy, that has a different site picture which requires different take-off and landing piloting techniques. It's absurd.

The FAA needs to go all the way, one way or the other, either relax what triggers a new type, let Boeing change the warning system, switchology, how about some de-icing on the tail and let Boeing still call it a 737...or put Boeing on notice that there will be no more extensions of the 737 type period. How anyone even semi-knowledgeable about airplanes can say with a straight face that a 737-100 and a 737-MAX is the same type (other than the fact that the FAA says it is) still astonishes me.
 
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:35 am

One of the post was right, this is just a 737 with new toys and new engines, that is all. The design has been around for a very long time. The 777 upgrade to a 777x is just an upgrade as well.
I maybe wowed if the came out with a new design - and mini 787 or a bigger C Series.
Same old. This goes for the A320 too. The B787, A350, and A380 are game changers and the rest well.
 
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting Passedv1 (Reply 24):


I completely agree with you. The 737 MAX is a mashup of 60 year old tech mixed with modern tech based on ridiculus FAA regulations on what can be switched out, and what can not. And Boeing is to blame just as much, for insisting on it being the same aircraft type as the 737-100/200, 737-300/400/500, 737-600-/700/800/900, resulting in a poorer airplane than it otherwise would have been. But the airlines love it as long as they dont have to spend some cash on retraining crew. They don't care that the cockpit is cramped and noisy and that half of it belongs in a museum. C'est la vie.
 
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 26):
They don't care that the cockpit is cramped and noisy and that half of it belongs in a museum.

...because passengers don't care, and thus won't pay a differential for an aircraft that's not "cramped and noisy" to whiny crew.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 27):
whiny crew.

Tell that to the pilots struggling with tinnitus after flying the 737 for a few years. The 727 and 707 had the exact same problem because of the identical nose design.

[Edited 2015-10-25 01:46:15]
 
UA444
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:19 am

I'll pay more to fly on the 320 due to the wider cabin and I'm not alone. The 707 twin engine needs to die.
 
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77west
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:37 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 29):
I'll pay more to fly on the 320 due to the wider cabin and I'm not alone. The 707 twin engine needs to die.

Wider by what, a few inches? Come on people stop whining like little girls. We are supposed to be aviation enthusiasts.

I have flown 4hrs+ on both A320 and B738 and find them BOTH to be too cramped and not very enjoyable. I certainly could not tell the difference in width between the two, in terms of seats.
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BravoOne
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 28):
Tell that to the pilots struggling with tinnitus after flying the 737 for a few years. The 727 and 707 had the exact same problem because of the identical nose design.

While disappointed that Boeing has not taken the next step in a 737 replacement, I remain curious regarding the tinnitus issues on the 707/727? Please expand on that one. I have over 10,000 in these two aircraft and have never heard of such a thing?
 
holzmann
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:40 pm

B737 vs A320?

Between WAS and SFO, UA runs all sorts of hardware. If given the choice between a B738/9 or A320, I try for the B752 or rare B777 :P
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EPA001
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
The 737 MAX achieved another milestone: first power-on.

That is a major milestone for Boeing's upcoming cash cow. The cockpit looks quite nice.  
 
Heinkel
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting 77west (Reply 30):
Quoting UA444 (Reply 29):
I'll pay more to fly on the 320 due to the wider cabin and I'm not alone. The 707 twin engine needs to die.

Wider by what, a few inches? Come on people stop whining like little girls. We are supposed to be aviation enthusiasts.

I have flown 4hrs+ on both A320 and B738 and find them BOTH to be too cramped and not very enjoyable. I certainly could not tell the difference in width between the two, in terms of seats


I flew FRA - TLV on LH in Y last spring. It is a 4 hours 10 min flight. Outbound on an A321 and inbound on a B737.

I felt, that the Boeing was narrower and I checked the in-flight-magazine with the technical data of the a/c and found, that the Boeing cabin is 20 cm (rough 8") narrower than the cabin of the Airbus (Airbus 3.7 m, Boeing 3.5 m).

I can tell you, that I felt every missing inch at the Boeing and was quite happy, that the middle seat stayed vacant.

And yes, I'm an aviation enthusiast.
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 32):
While disappointed that Boeing has not taken the next step in a 737 replacement, I remain curious regarding the tinnitus issues on the 707/727? Please expand on that one. I have over 10,000 in these two aircraft and have never heard of such a thing?

Going on what crew have said, the 737 crews used noise cancelling headsets because of the high ambient noise in the cockpit
 
holzmann
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:56 pm

I have no doubt that Y1/NMA/MOM will come...someday...
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zanl188
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 22):
Is there a larger version of that flight deck picture? I don't see it anywhere on the Boeing site.

I found it here:
http://www.boeingblogs.com/randy/
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BravoOne
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 36):
Going on what crew have said, the 737 crews used noise cancelling headsets because of the high ambient noise in the cockpit

You are correct. My error as I read your post as tendonitis which of course is a completely different animal. The flight decks on the 707 and 727 were very noisy, especially at low altitude, high speed. Not sure the 737 is as bad as it's just not that fast down low.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:52 pm

Boeing wanted to do a new NB, airlines definitely said otherwise. End of story.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 28):

Tell that to the pilots struggling with tinnitus after flying the 737 for a few years. The 727 and 707 had the exact same problem because of the identical nose design.

Not sure why that would be a problem?

PAX don't care about crew(as long as the crew make the PAX happy) . They aren't going to pay for a crew to have a comfy ride. I would think that most airline employees don't expect that.
Welcome to the industry.  
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:01 pm

Airlines and in particular SWA want to minimize anything that will cost them additional training to qualify their crews. If they can do it with a handout, it's just fine. If they need full flight simulator time then it becomes a significant and onerous additional cost factor. There are penalties built into the sales contracts that penalize Boeing if they are no able to achieve some training goals that were promised at the time of contract signing, thus minimalizing changes from the current NG are critical to a successful program in both Boeing and SWA eyes.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting Passedv1 (Reply 24):
or put Boeing on notice that there will be no more extensions of the 737 type period.

I doubt you'll need to worry about that happening.

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 26):
And Boeing is to blame just as much, for insisting on it being the same aircraft type as the 737-100/200, 737-300/400/500, 737-600-/700/800/900, resulting in a poorer airplane than it otherwise would have been.

Everything is a tradeoff. Honestly, it'd be possible to build a better A320 as well but nobody is challenging them to do so. Nobody complains about that, though. Were there some new super-duper third party narrowbody that provided more space and amenities and technology, you'd suddenly have people clamoring for the A320 to be upgraded. My point: Everything is relative, and life is full of trade-offs.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 29):

I'll pay more to fly on the 320 due to the wider cabin and I'm not alone.

I've ridden in the A321/73G/739/CR7 recently and would be hard pressed to tell you which was more or less comfortable. And I'm not skinny.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 41):
Not sure why that would be a problem?

Seriously, it's like nobody has ever worked in a challenging environment. Trust me, in every one of those jobs people are wishing and hoping for this to be better or that to be better. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not like the 737 cockpit is the worst place in the world to work.

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par13del
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:28 pm

So what percentage of the deployed 737 fleet is operated by WN giving them that much power, 50%?
Yes WN did ask for some commonality, but if Boeing caved in to them the rest of the customers had choices, wonder why they stuck with the product when it was so customized for one airline?
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 32):
While disappointed that Boeing has not taken the next step in a 737 replacement, I remain curious regarding the tinnitus issues on the 707/727? Please expand on that one. I have over 10,000 in these two aircraft and have never heard of such a thing?

I know first hand multiple pilots who have tinnitus after flying the 737 and 727. There are many who struggle with it.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 36):
Going on what crew have said, the 737 crews used noise cancelling headsets because of the high ambient noise in the cockpit

Yep.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 39):
You are correct. My error as I read your post as tendonitis which of course is a completely different animal. The flight decks on the 707 and 727 were very noisy, especially at low altitude, high speed. Not sure the 737 is as bad as it's just not that fast down low.

Looks like the misunderstanding sorted itself out. Yes the 707 and 727 are from what I've learned the worst ones due to their higher speeds. But the 707, 727 and 737 all share the same nose design and wind noise problems up front. The 737 is a remarkable aircraft, but it's time to replace it with an all new design in my humble opinion. Problem is that if you put a new nose design on it, FAA says it becomes a different type even if everything else is the same, including the cockpit.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 41):
Not sure why that would be a problem?

PAX don't care about crew(as long as the crew make the PAX happy) . They aren't going to pay for a crew to have a comfy ride. I would think that most airline employees don't expect that.
Welcome to the industry.  

I know and agree. Like I said in my post, the airlines don't care about that. They care about economy of the aircraft, not the long term health or comfort of their crew.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:53 pm

Wow, this is less advanced than the first A320 I flew in 1993.
And ... not much more advanced than the B737-200 I flew in 1989!

Are the old eyebrow window holes still there?

Noise? ... Why is noise still an issue? I recently rode the jump seat of an A321. The cockpit was so quiet it was startling, and that airframe was built 15 years ago.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
VC10er
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:02 pm

United flies a huge fleet of both A318/19 and 737's. I realize that the Airbus' were a legacy United aircraft decision. This year I have been flying far more domestic UA than my usual International due to changes in my client roster. I find the exUA A319 to be far more comfortable in F than CO 737-8/900.

Does United ever reveal current information about having 2 giant fleets of both types? Anything from economics to pax reports? It really surprised me to hear United brought on 11 more A319's (with options for 20 more) when CO seemed to get the hives just thinking about Airbus! Yet, they are putting the new, great looking F seat on the Airbus' first?

How many 737-MAX orders does UA have?

I realize that the 737 earned a big place in the history books, but I'm confused over these 2 NB's.
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starrymarkb
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
Are the old eyebrow window holes still there?

Looking at the picture, the HUD occupies one above the Captain's seat, the FO still has a hole.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Yes WN did ask for some commonality, but if Boeing caved in to them the rest of the customers had choices, wonder why they stuck with the product when it was so customized for one airline?

Very simple so don't try to think to hard about. If you're the launch customer you get to call a lot of shots!
 
BravoOne
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RE: Boeing 737 MAX First Power-on

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 49):
Looking at the picture, the HUD occupies one above the Captain's seat, the FO still has a hole

I don't know but I would imagine the HUD is an option on this airplane and two HUDs would certainly be optional.

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