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777GE90
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VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:05 pm

I just noticed this: https://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi...Airways/Airbus-A340-642/2721621/L/

Anyone know what happened to the winglet?
Image
 
coolian2
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:08 pm

The aircraft hit a fence at JFK so they removed it.
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777GE90
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:09 pm

Oh right? When did this happen?

So it is allowed to fly without it's winglet? Did they have to remove the one on the other side too?
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coolian2
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:11 pm

I don't know. I just read the caption on the photo.

It's fine to fly as I understand, from the actual experts replies to this previously there are some fuel burn penalties.
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rbavfan
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:14 pm

Its says what happened in the photos caption. See reply 1 for verification.

Note: Im shocked at the number of times people have asked questions about a photo on a*net without reading the caption first. This is a site heavily geared for reading after all.
 
starrymarkb
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:16 pm

Yep, A330/A340 can fly with a single Winglet. IIRC so can the B744
 
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777GE90
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:17 pm

@rbavfan,

I read the caption and it said exactly: "Anybody noticing anything different in this picture? You have got to love Heathrow for the variety and sheer number of airliners that come and go in a steady stream, but for sure it is not an everyday event to photograph an A340 missing a winglet! Don't know what actually happened, but looking closely it seems it was ripped off [Canon 7DII + EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM].". However, it was updated after I posted this thread.

Regardless, thank you for posting.

[Edited 2015-10-24 13:35:43]
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coolian2
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 4):

I didn't verify anything but quote the caption almost verbatim.
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EZYAirbus
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:30 pm

Similar thing happened a few years ago with an Air Canada 747-400 arriving at Heathrow missing a winglet.


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777GE90
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 5):
Quoting ezyairbus (Reply 8):

Ah that's interesting, I'm surprised they can operate with only one winglet. I would have thought for aerodynamic reasons they would either have to have both or none of them. But guess I was wrong, thanks for clearing that up :P.
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starrymarkb
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:46 pm

From what I've read it's more a paperwork issue rather then engineering reasons. The aircraft is tested with both winglets and with one missing, but the OEMs don't test for both (I'm guessing the loss of one either on the ground or during flight is considered more likely then the very slim chances of loosing both)
 
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FredrikHAD
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:14 pm

Since the winglets lower fuel burn, that has to mean that there is more drag on the wingtip that lacks a winglet. Apparently, fuel savings are 4-6 %, so the momentum of the extra drag at the end of the long wing should be anything but insignificant. I'd be tempted to guess that there's a button somewhere in the menus to klick when you remove/lose a winglet that makes avionics compensate for the asymmetric drag...

/Fredrik

[Edited 2015-10-24 14:29:35]
 
migair54
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 11):
I'd be tempted to guess that there's a button somewhere in the menus to klick when you remove/lose a winglet that makes avionics compensate for the asymmetric drag...

The rudder will compensate the difference in drag, but we are talking about a very little difference.

There's a document in all the planes called CDL Configuration Deviation List, any external item can be checked in that list and if they are missing that document will tell how to dispatch the plane, if it's possible, and it will give a reference to another place to calculate the penalty for the extra fuel or the conditions, maybe not able for etops, or in case of icing conditions etc...

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 3):
It's fine to fly as I understand, from the actual experts replies to this previously there are some fuel burn penalties.

I am not sure how much will be the penalty but I think maybe around 2-3%.

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 9):
Ah that's interesting, I'm surprised they can operate with only one winglet.

A winglet is not a big issue, much more penalty and bigger issue if for example when Qantas used to carry a 5th engine under the wing, or ferry a DC-10 on 2 engines, that has much more complex preparation. It's very interesting issue.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 2):
Oh right? When did this happen?

Search and you find

VS Jet Wing Clips Blast Fence At JFK (by readytotaxi Sep 19 2015 in Civil Aviation)

=
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zkncj
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 2):
So it is allowed to fly without it's winglet? Did they have to remove the one on the other side too?

About 15 years back an UA 744 was pushed into the Terminal at AKL, they simply removed the Winglet and after some checks headed back to LAX
 
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conaly
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:58 am

A removed winglet has somewhat only a very minor effect on the operation of the aircraft. In fact, some airplanes could operate with a much higher imbalance on either one of the wings:


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And my personal favorite:
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Photo © Norman Gage

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LAX772LR
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting conaly (Reply 16):
And my personal favorite:

Heck, the #4 engine looks like it's hanging on by a thread as well!  Wow!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 2):
So it is allowed to fly without it's winglet? Did they have to remove the one on the other side too?

Winglets are auxiliary structure. Nice to have but not necessary for safe flight. they're listed in the Configuration Deviation List
or the ICAO DDG Dispatch Deviation Guide . No winglet is primary structure but they can cost a penalty in range and performance.
 
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jeffh747
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:51 pm

The Aerolineas Argentinas A340 that hit the AF 77W in MIA a few years back had to have the winglet removed. It actually flew for quite a few months (maybe a year or two?) before they fixed it IIRC
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Whiteguy
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 17):

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 2):
So it is allowed to fly without it's winglet? Did they have to remove the one on the other side too?

Winglets are auxiliary structure. Nice to have but not necessary for safe flight. they're listed in the Configuration Deviation List
or the ICAO DDG Dispatch Deviation Guide . No winglet is primary structure but they can cost a penalty in range and performance.


Depends on the aircraft.....
 
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flylku
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 14):
About 15 years back an UA 744 was pushed into the Terminal at AKL, they simply removed the Winglet and after some checks headed back to LAX

Do you know how long it was delayed? Hours? A day?
...are we there yet?
 
Airbus_A340
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 11):
Since the winglets lower fuel burn, that has to mean that there is more drag on the wingtip that lacks a winglet. Apparently, fuel savings are 4-6 %, so the momentum of the extra drag at the end of the long wing should be anything but insignificant.

You are looking at an approximately 1.3% fuel penalty for 1 missing winglet on A340 aircraft and 1.2% on A330.
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AirlineCritic
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting conaly (Reply 15):
And my personal favorite:

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Photo © Norman Gage



Wow. The caption says that the engine was carried on main deck. So we still had a four-holer, but one of the engines was in the cargo space!
 
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XAM2175
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):
Heck, the #4 engine looks like it's hanging on by a thread as well!

The slot in the pylon accommodates the thrust reverser sleeve.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting XAM2175 (Reply 23):
The slot in the pylon accommodates the thrust reverser sleeve.

I'm aware. I'm referring more to the build-up of soot that's apparently been there for quite a while, and runs the risk of masking rust/corrosion.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
727LOVER
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:27 am

There's actually a disagreement about this pic in the photography forum:

Exaggerated Photo Comments (by G-CIVP Oct 24 2015 in Aviation Photography)
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Viscount724
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RE: VS A340 Arrives Without Winglet?

Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting 777GE90 (Reply 2):
So it is allowed to fly without it's winglet? Did they have to remove the one on the other side too?

Quite a few photos in the database of aircraft operating with only one winglet.

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