Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 51):
powerful army that flexes it's muscle

Economical power itself is nice but without military power you're no world power. Again - any prove for your statement? A country that has no proper military but still is a world power?!
 
LGAviation
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 52):
Economical power itself is nice but without military power you're no world power. Again - any prove for your statement? A country that has no proper military but still is a world power?!

Dear Marvinhsv, seeing the hsv prefix, I suppose you might be less than 15 miles away from me and still we have a fundamentally different perception of the EU we live in. Maybe the EU doesn't have a military itself, but the closely closely cooperating individual forces are equipped with nuclear weapons and other high-end technology. I thinks it's simply not a fair statement to assume in any way that Russia is more powerful than the EU
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
Marvinhsv
Posts: 235
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 53):
not a fair statement to assume in any way that Russia is more powerful than the EU

I never ever said Russia is more powerful than the EU. I am not a fan of Russia but thinking that the EU has any influence in the Middle East (especially there) is not correct.

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 53):
seeing the hsv prefix

Oh yes. But DFB Pokal will be without them tonight...  
Quoting LGAviation (Reply 53):
with nuclear weapons and other high-end technology

which is good but today's wars in the Middle East are guerilla ones so bombing only is not enough at all. (no matter if they come from the US, Russia, EU or anybody else)
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 51):
I guess some people just won't believe that the only criteria to becoming a wold power is a powerful army that flexes it's muscle

...and invading neighboring sovereign countries....   
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 54):
I am not a fan of Russia

  

Quoting irshava (Reply 47):
Too much Russian propaganda. Only Russians say the EU is worthless. This is a classic example of a Putin sympathizer in the Western World who hates his own country and was captivated by Putin's charming lies. Classic classic case. Which is why I refuse to even respond to him and urge others to do the same

I just get too tempted to feed the trolls...   
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:24 pm

Discussion is over again. I'm done - go celebrate, I'll delete my account.

You kicked another Russian troll. Congrats.

[Edited 2015-10-27 10:25:58]
 
2175301
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 36):
Quoting tu204 (Reply 35):So then no complaints that Ukranian airlines were given the boot from flying to Russia?
No. Nobody I know in Ukraine seems to be terribly upset about this. There is no public outcry. There is no-one in the street demanding the restoration of direct air services with Russia. The airlines are not complaining either. It is not an issue in Ukraine. Just a news item...

Most Ukrainians seem to share my view that this was long overdue.

It may not yet have dawned on you, but with its aggression of the past 1 1/2 years, Russia has lost Ukraine. Probably forever.

"Good riddance", seems to be the view of the vast majority of the population.

Welcome to reality


From Reuters:

Russia is seeking a mutual lifting of the bans, Ukraine is not interested ...
Ukraine insists that the sanctions can only be lifted after Russian airlines stop flying to illegally occupied Crimea.

Rightly so...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...sia-airlines-idUSKCN0SK1RA20151026
http://ru.reuters.com/article/topNews/idRUKCN0SK1ZR20151026

There is no need for any compromise here.[Edited 2015-10-26 14:10:32][Edited 2015-10-26 14:45:48]
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 39):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 36):No. Nobody I know in Ukraine seems to be terribly upset about this. There is no public outcry. There is no-one in the street demanding the restoration of direct air services with Russia. The airlines are not complaining either. It is not an issue in Ukraine. Just a news item...
Then you don't know too many people there it seems. While there will be a ton of revenue lost on both sides and mostly on the Russian side as more RUS airlines operate those routes, the real hit would be on the innocent traveling public, the majority of whom is made up of Ukrainian nationals, either those that do business between the two, are traveling back and forth to see family (tons of family ties between these two nations), or Ukrainians who are living in Russia going home for visits.

It's very evident that the people that you know in Ukraine, if true, are extreme nationalists with an agenda. Any average person living in Ukraine that has some sort of ties to Russia, which is the majority, will tell you their own personal negative impacts of all this political BS.

My wife is from Eastern Ukraine (only left Ukraine in 2012, and was back there in the summer of 2014 for 6 weeks - near the eastern war zone), and her mother was Russian. Based on the information I get from her and her various Ukraine Friends I think Scorpio is closer to the truth here. Ukraine Nationalism is not a minority viewpoint - even in Eastern Ukraine (and Western Ukraine has always been closer to Western Europe). Yes there are some people in Ukraine who want the old Russian/Ukraine relationship; but, that is a small minority and tends to be older people - even in Eastern Ukraine.

My sense is that the greatest part of the population - even in Eastern Ukraine no longer wants anything much to do with Russia - except to visit relatives and old friends (and the younger generation is not making any new friends across the border). Russian aggression and tactics has destroyed any concept of trust with Russia. In the end I believe that one of Russia's biggest mistake was banning the sale of Ukrainian candy because it was "contaminated" - and that same candy is being sold in many other countries - including the US; and no other country has found any unusual contaminations in it). That finalized in most Ukrainian's minds that Russia could not be trusted for anything, and could not be a reliable business partner in anything.

In my opinion - in the end, Russia will be the biggest looser on invading and ending the former working relationship with Ukraine. My personal opinion is that Putin was (and is) only looking relatively short term political; and not at the long term Russian position and economic power.

Ukraine will do well in the future - not that it will be easy; but, there is no general regret on further cutting ties with Russia.

Have a great day,
 
Kiwirob
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 42):
True beliefs revealed.

Even you must realise Ukraine isn't exactly paradise, Odessa is nice but that is about it, especially now that Crimea is gone for good.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 45):

Really? The EU is not a "world power"? And that statement comes from someone who claims to live in the EU...

The EU is a collection of countries, a trading block, some using a common currency, but it's no power. And as I said the EU sanctions end on the 31st January 2016.

Quoting irshava (Reply 47):
who hates his own country

The EU isn't a country.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 58):
Ukraine will do well in the future - not that it will be easy

You've got to be kidding it will cost trillions to sort Ukraine out and make it into a functional democracy, especially when they are still welded to the oligarchs as there political and ruling elite.
 
Scipio
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 58):
Ukraine will do well in the future - not that it will be easy; but, there is no general regret on further cutting ties with Russia.

That summarizes things quite well, regardless of the fantasies that Kiwinocchio, tu204, Marvinshv, Aeroflot777 and others keep on entertaining.
 
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MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 60):
That summarizes things quite well, regardless of the fantasies that Kiwinocchio, tu204, Marvinshv, Aeroflot777 and others keep on entertaining.

The discontinuation of flights - and the negative impact that this has to the flying public - isn't a fantasy.

And your comments throughout this thread have been nothing but divisive and inflammatory, contributing nothing to the topic of direct air service between Ukraine and Russia.
 
alfa164
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 61):
The discontinuation of flights - and the negative impact that this has to the flying public - isn't a fantasy.

What negative impact? Do you really think Ukrainians are chomping at the bit to go to Russia now? I see all the posters who whine that Ukrainians are all poor and downtrodden... but are being hurt because they can't hop on a non-stop flight to the home of their country's aggressor. That just doesn't compute.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 61):
And your comments throughout this thread have been nothing but divisive and inflammatory

Sorry again, but Scipio beings facts based on his own personal observations and knowledge. He is Ukrainian, and in a much better position to express his views than all the posters who probably never ever heard of Ukraine prior to MH17.
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
irshava
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 62):

The news of cancellation of flights between the two countries sparked more of "Why wasn't this done sooner" as opposed to "Aw shucks, now I can't visit Dyadya Anton and his run-down dacha near Moscow"

And for the trolls who question Ukraine's economic potential, check out this clip and lay off the RussiaToday and LifeNews garbage about a failing state. Russia invading Ukraine is extremely tragic, especially for ordinary Ukrainians like me who have lost neighbors and friends in the war. However, in the long run, it will turn out to be the best thing they have ever done. We've destroyed all remnants of a disgusting Soviet past, we hold DEMOCRATIC elections and now we have the benefit of establishing closer ties with democratic nations in the West. People respect what we have done and that we are in command of our own future. There is still lots of work to be done and we're not done yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdSQuanI8Z8

P.S. Nice to see another troll, Kiwi, finally wake up and fart something useless.

[Edited 2015-10-27 20:33:07]
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
tu204
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 62):
What negative impact? Do you really think Ukrainians are chomping at the bit to go to Russia now? I see all the posters who whine that Ukrainians are all poor and downtrodden... but are being hurt because they can't hop on a non-stop flight to the home of their country's aggressor. That just doesn't compute.

What negative impact?

Yes, it seems that Ukranians are still going to Russia to find work. That EU visa-free regime didn't really work out as expected. Before their coup and civil war, there were over 3 million Ukranians working here in Russia. After the civil war started there have been over 600,000 registered refugees entering Russia from Ukraine. That is just the registered amount.

So it seems that Russia is still a popular destination for Ukranian migrant workers. With the Ukranian job market in a downward spiral, there will still be a demand for the flying public for years to come.

So yeah, only see a negative impact for the flying public here...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
eielef
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 64):
So it seems that Russia is still a popular destination for Ukranian migrant workers. With the Ukranian job market in a downward spiral, there will still be a demand for the flying public for years to come.

Thats pretty true. As I told you, in the border crossing at the M2/M20 there were 90% of Ukrainian cars.
If I was from Donetsk, had my family, my business there, but I'm afraid of the violence and I'm thinking of leaving, there are basically three destinations that come to mind, because they are the three less than 3 hours away from Donetsk. Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov and Rostov/Don (Russia). Where do you think I would go? See how many have gone to each of those cities. Check also the unemployment rate on all the three. And the average salary.
But still, on July 1st 2015 Poroshenko decided that Russians needed to have an International Passport for entering Ukraine (before you could enter just with your Domestic ID). So Ukrainians need now an international passport for entering Russia. And is something not many people has, or can afford to do it. A few months laters he banned flights between both countries. And he did it, because Russia did it as a reciprocity measure. Why would PS be allowed to carry on flying to LED and DME if Russian airlines are not allowed to fly to KBP?

See that even Ukrainians consider people from the East as pro-Russia, pro-Soviet, anti-EU, anti-Ukraine, some sort of under-classed people. You consider now them rebels aided by Russia. But we can clearly say that they are not so. Id say at least 95% of people in Donetsk or Luhansk are working people, children still go to school every day, people works in farms, factories, as doctors, as taxi drivers, as ever they can or they want. There are a small number of "rebels" fighting the Ukrainian Army, vulnerating peace. Actually, today, the only conflictive area is the region of Mariupol. Donetsk and Luhansk are not paradise, but are at least stable, for both Ukrainians and Russians. Foreigners are advised not to go there, as the risk of kidnapping is high (that's what the dutch MFA said).

Just as a comparison, Argentina and the United Kingdom have had a 30+ years lasting conflict for the Falkland/Malvinas Island, in the south-Atlantic. British Airways still flies to Buenos Aires, and some LHR Spotters saw an AR Charter (A343) slowly approaching London. Diplomatic relations were ceased after the 1982 war, but reestablished a few years later. So as direct flights between both countries. From the early 90s to early 2000s, AR flew a few times a week to LGW, via MAD. But they later decided to use an agreement with UX for routes to London and Paris (before being a Skyteam member), so AR stopped using its own planes (it was mostly an MD88 based at MAD) to fly to those destinations.
What's the difference between Crimea and the Falklands/Malvinas? Both countries (UK/AR) have interests there. Both countries have historic ties there. Both countries have legal reasons to say it belong to them. But, besides that, we, Argentineans, don't hate people from the UK, and vice-versa. I think everyone in Argentina and in the UK remembers the Falklands/Malvinas, the war, but they move on, and visit each other, and trade with each other, and so on.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:11 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 60):
That summarizes things quite well, regardless of the fantasies that Kiwinocchio, tu204, Marvinshv, Aeroflot777 and others keep on entertaining.

Spoken like a person who has only ever been a tourist in Ukraine, not as a person who has ever done any business in Ukraine.

Quoting irshava (Reply 63):
Ukrainians like me who have lost neighbors and friends in the war

Considering the population of Ukraine and the number of people who have actually died in this conflict that's hard to believe, unless of course you're a Right Sector guy.

Quoting irshava (Reply 63):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdSQuanI8Z8

that's a puff piece if ever I saw one.

5000 aerospace graduates per year, 4th most educated country.........blah blah blah completely unbelievable.
 
airlittoralguy
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:41 am

The amount of propaganda against Russia on this forum is incredible.

The E.U. is not a power. There is a reason a U.S. top level official said "fuck the E.U." .

France is a power. Germany is a power. Russia is a power.

The E.U. is a bureaucratic organisation aimed at serving it's own interests. Not the one of it's member countries.

With regards to the situation between Ukraine and Russia, it's really sad to see the loss of all air links. I hope they will be reinstated soon.
Both sides have to stop acting like childs. Ukrainians need to accept Crimea is no longer part ukrainian especially. Not that is is something
difficult to understand
Normandie : La r�©unification, maintenant ! http://www.mouvement-normand.com/
 
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Ty134A
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 55):
...and invading neighboring sovereign countries....

it should be prohibited for us posters to complain about one country invading another one, because that is just... no words for that. what do us americans need, is a power piont presentation enaugh reason??? terrorists? communists? islamists? médecins sans frontières?

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 58):
Ukraine will do well in the future - not that it will be easy; but, there is no general regret on further cutting ties with Russia.

hopefully, but remember, a human life is not that long...

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 67):
The amount of propaganda against Russia on this forum is incredible.

The E.U. is not a power. There is a reason a U.S. top level official said "fuck the E.U." .

France is a power. Germany is a power. Russia is a power.

The E.U. is a bureaucratic organisation aimed at serving it's own interests. Not the one of it's member countries.

With regards to the situation between Ukraine and Russia, it's really sad to see the loss of all air links. I hope they will be reinstated soon.
Both sides have to stop acting like childs. Ukrainians need to accept Crimea is no longer part ukrainian especially. Not that is is something
difficult to understand

a very good analysis! only that the EU and it's member states, with a few exceptions, are not even able to protect their borders. now everybody able of basic math understands that DE, AT and SE will not be able to keep up their social development and need to change it dramatically in disadvantage to the existing citizens. in austria i belive that if asked, the majority would vote for leaving the EU... so the eu is nothing but a capitalistic market liberalization institution.

as for the ukraine i think that in kiev they just believed the wrong politicians! instead of a slow and steady democratic transition they choose an external backed revolution. they should have looked up the references of the western politicians involved before exercising their plans. and for us aviation nerds antonov is the example for how the western politics screw urkaine: russia was the only country taking up antonov airliners, and now the new partners don't give a damn. and this is with all other ukrainian products the same.

if you lived in the eu for a few years, you start to understand how things work, and they are not democratic or in the interest of the people...

about 10 years ago i categorically excluded russia as a place for living for me, even though i spent a great part of my life there. with the eu developing the way it is and destroying its member states, russia is becoming an option for me. but everybody has to decide for himself. in any case i am pretty sure i will not be flying on an antonov to go to russia, which is sad for russia, urkaine and a diverse economy!
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
142,143,AR8,AR1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 68):
as for the ukraine i think that in kiev they just believed the wrong politicians! instead of a slow and steady democratic transition they choose an external backed revolution.

Not forgetting that they had the Orange Revolution 10 years earlier which ultimately failed, they didn't learn from that, what's the bet that they have another revolutionin 10 years time, only the next time they won't have anyone to blame except themselves and nowhere to turn to.
 
RIX
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 67):
The amount of propaganda against Russia on this forum is incredible.
...
Ukrainians need to accept Crimea is no longer part ukrainian especially.

"French need to accept Alsace is no longer part french especially"

Just to add to that propaganda against Russia, you know...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 71):
"French need to accept Alsace is no longer part french especially"

Don't you mean German, Alsace is French, has been for a while now.
 
alfa164
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 66):
Spoken like a person who has only ever been a tourist in Ukraine, not as a person who has ever done any business in Ukraine.

Perhaps you missed it, but he is a Ukrainian citizen, currently living in Germany. Hardly a tourist... or someone who has never done business in Ukraine.

Quoting eielef (Reply 65):
See that even Ukrainians consider people from the East as pro-Russia, pro-Soviet, anti-EU, anti-Ukraine, some sort of under-classed people.

That is coming from someone who admitted he is only a tourist in Ukraine.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 66):
Considering the population of Ukraine and the number of people who have actually died in this conflict that's hard to believe, unless of course you're a Right Sector guy.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 66):
that's a puff piece if ever I saw one.
Quoting Ty134A (Reply 68):
as for the ukraine i think that in kiev they just believed the wrong politicians! instead of a slow and steady democratic transition they choose an external backed revolution.
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
Ukraine is depriving its own citizens from traveling to a place they have strong ties to, both family and business
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
The truth is, that both of you constantly summarize the hate that exists on this forum. Everyone who doesn't share your same opinion gets labeled as a troll, childish approach really. Which makes no sense at all, it's either your way or the highway.

It is amazing - and discouraging - that posters with no interests in Ukraine (other than in posting pro-Russian propaganda) continue to deny and debase the actual observations and opinions of Ukrainian members on this forum.

That only speaks to the flippant attitude they have towards issues of that country's safety, independence, and sovereignty. Even if you don't agree, you should at least respect the fact that they - and their country - are suffering from invasion by another country. Of course, if your role is just to deny or justify Russia's actions, you don't care.


Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 67):
The amount of propaganda against Russia on this forum is incredible.
Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 67):
Both sides have to stop acting like childs. Ukrainians need to accept Crimea is no longer part ukrainian especially. Not that is is something difficult to understand

I think you answered your own complaint. There is anti-Russian feeling because Russia invaded a portion of Ukraine and seized that territory.

Is that so difficult to understand?
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 73):
It is amazing - and discouraging - that posters with no interests in Ukraine (other than in posting pro-Russian propaganda) continue to deny and debase the actual observations and opinions of Ukrainian members on this forum.

No interests in Ukraine? Unlike you, my family is 50% Ukrainian (from both sides) and half of whom still live in Lugansk and the other half in Kiev. I spend about 2 months out of every year in Ukraine, often times more. I have been in Kiev 3 times this year alone, all for extended periods of time and in fact going there in a few weeks time again. I grew up in Kiev almost as much as my time in Moscow and the USA. We own two properties in Kiev. I too have "actual observations and opinions" of what I see and hear with my own two eyes and pair of ears when I'm there. I want nothing more than to see my home happy. Unlike some people on this forum, who say they have connections, or girlfriends, or mothers on the ground in Ukraine relaying them the news so they can spill it out in hatred on this forum, it's beneficial to experience things for yourself before being so stubborn about an issue. Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can't take that opinion and run wild and overboard with assumptions and claiming facts. I mostly like to keep to myself on this forum, but it's ridiculous that sometimes you need to expose yourself more and more to even try to justify your connection to the conflict or your personal connections to a situation to make it more believable for other forum members. At the end of the day it's not even worth it because instead of an open discussion it becomes a onslaught of one-way garbage. To use your own words, it's amazing and discouraging to know that fellow members can assume things about people even without knowing them a tiny bit. There seem to be a ton of "armchair politicians" on board here that read something and follow suit.

And again, unlike you, I am heavily exposed on a personal level, to the two arguments to this conflict. I experience both sides and can understand and commiserate with both groups of people trying to achieve a common good - through two very different viewpoints and approaches.

If people in here actually spend all of about 10 minutes reading into the history of Ukraine, they would know that things aren't black and white like it's chewed up for them in the news. Ukraine is a divided country which for all intents and purposes might as well be two separate nations. But again, people will simply not understand this without seeing it on their own. If your family and friends are heavily skewed to one side, that's fine, there is every right to defend that position, but to attack the opposing side who is equally entitled to an opinion of their own and claim they be trolls as soon as there is a disagreement is outright ridiculous.
 
airlittoralguy
Posts: 174
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:00 pm

Is it actully difficult to understand , regarding the Ukrainian situation that :

In first instance, what happened was a coup funded by well interested foreing interests.
They got ride of a democratically, freshly elected President.

The new guys in power in Kiev said they wanted to get nearer to the European Union.
As if anyone right in his mind would like to be a part of such a deliquinshing bureaucratic construction.

Because they were not only undemocratic , the new guys in power in Kiev thought it would be smart to get ride of the
statute of Russian as an official regional language in regional territories with strong russian population.

Add to that that a big part of the nationalist Ukrainian who took part in the coup are made of racist, nazi-friendly
people who boasted they would kill as many Russian / Russian speaking people they could.

As a consequence of the coup, the Russian intervention, if there was some,
was just the protection of the Russian speaking population there.

Crimea is historically part of Russia. The russians are now there, and rightly so. The rest is history.
Don't like it ? We did not hear so much complaints regarding Kosovo, Irak, or Libya.


It is really sad that this forum is taken in hostage for people with a political agenda each time Russia is involved.

The fact now is there are now no more flights between these two countries. That's insane, considering the amount of people willing to fly between them.
I really hope everyone will go back to an acceptable behaviour. Ukraine has so much more to loose there so I hope it's politicans will play a responsible game.
Normandie : La r�©unification, maintenant ! http://www.mouvement-normand.com/
 
alfa164
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 75):
In first instance, what happened was a coup funded by well interested foreing interests.
They got ride of a democratically, freshly elected President.

In typically Russian-apologist language, you are trying to rewrite history again. There was no "coup" in Kiev; it was the same elected government that existed under Yanukovych. And thay didn't get rid of a "democratically, freshly elected President"; he was cast adrift by his own allies. The Western officials were just as surprised by the meltdown as anyone else.

You should remember that it was Yanukovych first agreed to sign a trade deal with the European Union but then, under heavy pressure from Moscow, abruptly turned away from that long-planned pact. When his own citizens went to Maidan Square protest that about-face, he answered their concerns with gunfire. It was then that his own party - and his own supporters in Parliament - started to abandon him. Parliament remained intact; the government didn't change. Ukraine continued to have a legal government. Only the President - having been exposed as a puppet of Putin - ran away with his tail between his legs.

I realize that you will never see the truth on Russian State "News"... that is only for propaganda, to assure the masses that all is right and good in Mother Russia. I also realize that many in Russia - and you may be among them - dream of a return to the days when Russia was the great power of the Soviet Union. You may wish all those territories who chose self-government would return to such a state... but they won't. They are independent countries now, and while Putin, his armies, and his cronies may be able to steal parts of some territories from them, they will never be united under the Soviet sphere. They have tasted freedom and independence, and they will not go back.

At some point, even the most affectionate Putinistas will realize they have been duped.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 74):
. Ukraine is a divided country which for all intents and purposes might as well be two separate nations

How about Russia itself? Shouldn't the Caucasus be allowed to separate from Russia? How about any part of the country that doesn't want to be a part of Putin's perceived empire?

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 75):
Crimea is historically part of Russia. The russians are now there, and rightly so. The rest is history.

The Crimea has been a part of multiple countries (and empires, prior to that). The fact is it was most recently a legitimate part of Ukraine - and it had been unconditionally given to Ukraine by Russia. That hardly means the Russians "rightly" invaded it and stole it.

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 75):
It is really sad that this forum is taken in hostage for people with a political agenda each time Russia is involved.

   Pot, meet kettle.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 76):
How about Russia itself?

What about it? This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Almost every country has regions that don't feel at home and want to be their own entity or rejoin their past. Look at South Tirol in Italy. Russia has its fair share of internal problems, and no one denies that, plus not everyone follows Putin and his every word like you believe they do. This topic was discussing Ukraine, and in Ukraine, the country is practically split 50/50, we're not talking about small sections of the country or autonomous regions.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 76):
I realize that you will never see the truth on Russian State "News"... that is only for propaganda, to assure the masses that all is right and good in Mother Russia.

Just like you, will also never see the truth of the opposing viewpoint - the side you stand behind so ambitiously. Both sides push their agendas and for the West a united Ukraine against Russia serves their own political ambitions which is why we read and hear what we do in our daily media in Europe and the US. Propaganda is a two-way street here, just depends on which side you stand on. Ukraine has had deep hopes that the EU would come to their help, but in reality the EU doesn't need Ukraine and never did. Ukraine will be stuck in a limbo for many more decades to come. The EU has serious issues to deal with right now and Ukraine ain't one of them.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 76):
Pot, meet kettle.

So when people express interest and back the East side of things, it's a political agenda, but when people back the EU/USA viewpoint it's automatically correct and not an agenda? Please.  

[Edited 2015-10-28 11:29:09]
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 77):
So when people express interest and back the East side of things, it's a political agenda, but when people back the EU/USA viewpoint it's automatically correct and not an agenda? Please.

Your username gives away your prejudice.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Kiwirob
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 73):
Perhaps you missed it, but he is a Ukrainian citizen, currently living in Germany. Hardly a tourist... or someone who has never done business in Ukraine.

So he should know full well that Ukraine is not business friendly, everyone has there hands in the trough.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 73):
It is amazing - and discouraging - that posters with no interests in Ukraine (other than in posting pro-Russian propaganda) continue to deny and debase the actual observations and opinions of Ukrainian members on this forum.

I've been there many times, it's a horrible place, I detest going there, but I have to. Out of all the places I go for work Ukraine is by far the worst, I got to some pretty shitty places. At least now I get to go to Russian Crimea rather than Ukrainian Crimea.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 78):
Your username gives away your prejudice.

How shallow. But still has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I can have any username or flag in the world on my profile, but that should not influence a healthy discussion on a forum and show loyalty to a subject.

And once again, just because I agree with viewpoints you don't, doesn't make me incorrect. Using your logic I can say that your comments and political views show your prejudice. But that would be childish since I don't know you and your background, so I won't resort to passing judgements about you.

Now, in returning to the actual subject. I'm interested to see how this will play out in the long term because Ukrainian nationals do travel to Russia frequently and this will have a severe impact on their end. I assume train service will have to be increased, but I have yet to hear about that happening. I personally, always prefer the overnight Kiev-Moscow train instead of dealing with airports and flights on that sector. Plus gets you right into the city center.
 
RIX
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 72):

Don't you mean German

Nope, I mean French. Or it could be Czech and Sudetenland...
 
tmiw
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
Ukraine is depriving its own citizens from traveling to a place they have strong ties to, both family and business

I don't see how they're "depriving" anyone of anything when there are still one-stop flights to Russia from Ukraine. And if you don't want to fly, you can apparently still drive across the border (based on earlier comments in this thread).
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting tmiw (Reply 82):
I don't see how they're "depriving" anyone of anything when there are still one-stop flights to Russia from Ukraine. And if you don't want to fly, you can apparently still drive across the border (based on earlier comments in this thread).

Because you go from many flights a day on a few airlines + already available connecting flights to now only connecting flights. Prices jam up higher than ever and become unaffordable to most of the people in a nation where most people live off of a few hundred dollars per month salary.

The drive to Moscow from Kiev can take over 12 hours and makes no sense unless you are going for a very extended period of time. I haven't met too many people who ever do this for regular travel.

As already mentioned, trains existed and will continue to work, but it's also a 14 hours trip at a minimum with two border checks and is not the preferred method for many.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:03 pm

Scrub that. Actually the average monthly wage in Ukraine is now 4205 UAH, or $183 a month. People save up for months to be able to afford something nice, including airplane flights to see family and friends.

Quote:
Wages in Ukraine decreased to 4205 UAH/Month in August from 4390 UAH/Month in July of 2015. Wages in Ukraine averaged 1365.24 UAH/Month from 1996 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 4390 UAH/Month in July of 2015 and a record low of 115 UAH/Month in January of 1996. Wages in Ukraine is reported by the State Statistics Service of Ukraine.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages

Some other fascinating statistics for others to read up on if interested, where the rent of a 1 bedroom apartment is pretty much the same as the monthly wage:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...country_result.jsp?country=Ukraine
 
alfa164
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:58 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 80):
I personally, always prefer the overnight Kiev-Moscow train instead of dealing with airports and flights on that sector.
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 83):
As already mentioned, trains existed and will continue to work, but it's also a 14 hours trip at a minimum with two border checks and is not the preferred method for many.

I guess you are just smarter than everyone else...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 85):
I guess you are just smarter than everyone else...

Again, you prefer to personally jab instead of contributing. Never mind the fact that your response makes no sense (one quote is relaying my personal preference of travel and the other stating a general observation about the train link between cities). But since you evidently want to get to know me better, here goes:

I train it mostly because of nostalgic reasons, grew up doing so. Plus I don't historically tend to be in a hurry when traveling between MOW and Kiev, so even while being an aviation enthusiast, I try to change things up a bit.

[Edited 2015-10-28 16:13:31]
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 29):
I have not seen confirmation anywhere that the Ukrainian sanctions have been expanded to all Russian airlines.

Correction: the Ukrainian sanctions were expanded to all Russian airlines after Russia imposed a ban on all Ukrainian airlines. So, UTair is now also banned from flying to Ukraine.

http://russia-insider.com/en/politic...e-ban-each-others-airlines/ri10529

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/296462.html

Quote:
On October 12 it was announced that as the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency (Rosaviation) has not explained the reasons for restricting Ukrainian airlines' flights in Russian airspace starting October 25, 2015, the Ukrainian State Aviation Service has decided to fully terminate commercial air services between Ukraine and Russia starting from this date.
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
The truth is, that both of you constantly summarize the hate that exists on this forum.

Hate? Which country invaded which country? Which country is producing an incessant and artificial supply of hatred with its non-stop anti-Ukrainian propaganda?

Blame the victim, right?

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 67):
The amount of propaganda against Russia on this forum is incredible.

You cannot take yourself seriously if you post something like this...

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 73):
Perhaps you missed it, but he is a Ukrainian citizen, currently living in Germany.

Actually, this is not correct. I am Belgian, as indicated in my profile. I have no Ukrainian roots. However, I am professionally and personally closely involved with Ukraine, speak Ukrainian as well as Russian, and have been a close witness to some of the key events in Ukraine of the past two years.

That I would know Ukraine only as a tourist, as Kiwinocchio claims, is of course utter fantasy, just like pretty much everything else Kiwinocchio writes. There are good reasons why I call him Kiwinocchio.
 
tmiw
Posts: 90
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 83):
Because you go from many flights a day on a few airlines + already available connecting flights to now only connecting flights. Prices jam up higher than ever and become unaffordable to most of the people in a nation where most people live off of a few hundred dollars per month salary.

I'm seeing KBP-RIX-SVO as low as US$216 r/t according to Google Flights. But since you're asserting that prices for the direct routing were much lower, answer this: how much lower? How often were the non-stop flights running?

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 83):
The drive to Moscow from Kiev can take over 12 hours and makes no sense unless you are going for a very extended period of time. I haven't met too many people who ever do this for regular travel.
It's a four hour drive from Kiev to the Russian border. If you're visiting family, you're most likely visiting family that's not far from Ukraine. If you're a migrant worker, then your stay in Moscow is likely "extended" as you state anyway.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 83):
As already mentioned, trains existed and will continue to work, but it's also a 14 hours trip at a minimum with two border checks and is not the preferred method for many.

You can't always get what you want, especially because of something that's out of one's control.
 
irshava
Posts: 269
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:40 am

I stand corrected. Marvin is not the biggest Putin and Russia troll I've seen on this forum. Kiwinocchio gets himself off to RussiaToday and LieNews. It's utterly sick.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 79):
've been there many times, it's a horrible place, I detest going there, but I have to. Out of all the places I go for work Ukraine is by far the worst, I got to some pretty shitty places. At least now I get to go to Russian Crimea rather than Ukrainian Crimea.

This summarizes everything about your deluded beliefs lol. Please give away some of your left over dinner while you're there - Crimeans are hungry and the shelves in their supermarkets are bare. Also, I don't know how you'll like it there when Ukraine shuts off electricity and water - since you know, Crimea is dependent on mainland Ukraine - since you know, it belongs to Ukraine and not Russia.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
eielef
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:15 am

For Alfa164: I'm a foreigner living in Moscow, who happens to have lots of friends and co-workers both from Russia and Ukraine and has been many dozen of times in those countries, who also understands both languages (and speaks one of them), and knows both sides of the history.
I'm not a "tourist", like those who just take a photo at a lovely building, buy a souvenir, some cheap vodka, and run to find a Mc Donalds as he/she is terrified of even trying to speak to someone in a restaurant, and that thinks that food will always be bad or unhealthy.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 83):
The drive to Moscow from Kiev can take over 12 hours and makes no sense unless you are going for a very extended period of time. I haven't met too many people who ever do this for regular travel.

As already mentioned, trains existed and will continue to work, but it's also a 14 hours trip at a minimum with two border checks and is not the preferred method for many.

I left my hotel in Kharkov yesterday at 2pm. 40 kms later I was in the immigration queue (the one for cars, there is a different one for pedestrians, busses and trucks). At 6pm they allowed me to go to Ukrainian passport control and customs agency. At 1am they allowed me to cross to Russia, where the bureaucracy took good part of an hour. At 3am I arrived to Belgorod. So, Kharkov-Belgorod can be seen as just 79km (40 miles) but it can be a nightmare. It actually IS a nightmare that took me yesterday 13 hours. Plus 7 hours more of driving to Moscow.

The route that joins Kiev to Moscow is not better. It can take even more time to cross the border at the UA M02 & RU M3 (that goes from Kiev to Moscow) than at the UA M20 & RU M2 (that goes from Kharkov to Moscow).

Busses and pedestrians were even worse. They made all passengers to descend, claim their luggage, inspected them, and the outside temperature was -4. They kept them (pedestrians) for several hours just waiting, and many begged a driver to help them cross the border as they couldn't wait any more.

Before they used to be at least 10 daily flights between Moscow and Kiev (PS had 2, but SU, UN, UT had a higher number) and also they were flights to other Ukrainian airports as DNK, ODS, LWO, and at some times they were to DOK and HRK. Recently (in june) PS opened a nonstop flight between Moscow and Odessa. And had also good success with its flights to LED. So there was a good service and choice of airlines and prices between both countries. Flying with Air Baltic requires a Schengen Transit Visa, which is asked both to Ukrainians and Russians, and which is hard and expensive to get. So Belavia is, as far as I know, the only option.
 
Luxair747SP
Posts: 647
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:02 am

After reading all the answers to this thread, I don't want to offend somebody personally but it seems that most people with many people based in the US talk absolutely rubbish and just repeat over and over again what they heard in their "free" press.
I'm living in Germany but I'm in Russia every mo th, so I see both sides of the reports, the press biased by Americans who simply say that Putin is always the bad and the Ukraine are the poor. But most should see that even before this whole conflict started, the economy of Ukraine was in not the best state to say it mildly. But in my opinion it's crazy that the only airlinls to Tue Russian federation have been forbidden, first by ukrain cause that was one of the only links here's economical things were still done by Ukrainian, because the trade relations between Europe and Ukraine are not the best.
And don't attack Aeroflot777 cause what he says is fact based and mostly correct.
Everyone can have his opinion but there are always two sides of a coin...
I think the flights will restart soon again cause Ukraine economy will drop further down and down if continuing in such way.
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 90):
Crimea will not be part of Ukraine again, not that it ever should have been part of Ukraine

You being so passionate about it is quite amusing  ...

Quoting Luxair747SP (Reply 92):
many people based in the US talk absolutely rubbish and just repeat over and over again what they heard in their "free" press.

Claiming your opponents "read wrong press" is the weakest argument. And, yes, Putin is the bad and Ukraine is the poor in the conflict.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 93):
You being so passionate about it is quite amusing ...

You have me so wrong, I really don't care about Ukraine at all, it's a failed state, it's been a failed state since 1991, it will never be anything other than what it is today, the problem is the people, they continue to vote in oligarchs to run the place, until they stop this practice Ukraine will continue to remain irrelevant.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 90):
Oh sorry I forgot you have Ukranian girlfriend, I hear they are pretty cheap these days?
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 95):
I really don't care about Ukraine at all, it's a failed state, it's been a failed state since 1991, it will never be anything other than what it is today, the problem is the people, they continue to vote in oligarchs to run the place, until they stop this practice Ukraine will continue to remain irrelevant.

I am not convinced that insulting another poster - then insulting an entire country - contributes anything to the topic at hand.

Quoting irshava (Reply 94):
Honestly, I'm not even surprised that this scum would post something like this, his profile is filled with pictures of women in provocative poses and clothing - definitely in violation of A.net rules, not to mention deprived of any morals. Perverted knob that doesn't possess any decency.

I cannot disagree.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 95):
it's a failed state, it's been a failed state since 1991, it will never be anything other than what it is today
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 95):
I really don't care about Ukraine at all

- but of course you do. Passionately (see your own above).

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 95):
You have me so wrong

I got you exactly right.
 
tu204
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 89):
This summarizes everything about your deluded beliefs lol. Please give away some of your left over dinner while you're there - Crimeans are hungry and the shelves in their supermarkets are bare. Also, I don't know how you'll like it there when Ukraine shuts off electricity and water - since you know, Crimea is dependent on mainland Ukraine - since you know, it belongs to Ukraine and not Russia.

I did want to be the popular kid back when I was in school. Keep writting stuff like this and I won't have to make up my punch lines. 
But please tell me, do you guys honesltythink that Crimeans are starving or something?   
Because if you, do, I can no longer say that Ukraine is a failed state, it would be a doomed state.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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RE: All Russia-Ukraine Flights Cancelled Indefinitely

Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:58 am

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