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Paolo92
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Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:57 pm

There is, apparently, a new Canadian startup aiming at ordering the CSeries to start service in Q2 2017.


Zing Airlines

Quote:

Zing Airlines is the bold idea of connecting Canada in a point-to-point fashion with the small and nimble Bombardier CSeries.

Until recently, flying small numbers of people (100±20) over long distances was an uneconomical proposition. Smaller planes either lacked the range or comfort while larger planes were simply too large or heavy for the mission.

Canada is an extremely challenging market defined by small population centres separated by vast distances. As a result, travellers between secondary cities within Canada currently face multiple connecting flights and long travel times.

Long travel times have kept many Canadian cities and families isolated and separated from each other for far too long and this issue needed to be fixed.

What is needed is a small and nimble plane capable of travelling vast distances economically and comfortably, that plane is the Canadian built Bombardier CS100.

The CS100 flies further than any regional jet while operating profitably on routes that Boeing and Airbus aircraft are simply too heavy or large for the mission.
Opening up new routes will significantly slashing travel times across Canada.

The short runway requirements of the CS100 enables long distance flights from airports that previously only handled turboprop aircraft thus connecting communities whose citizens have become accustomed to long drives to larger hubs.
The CS100 has the potential to open up new routes, increase frequencies and also turn seasonal flights into all year long flights.

Both major Canadian airlines have invested in foreign made planes that fulfil an outdated vision. One can conclude that it is easier for them to keep the status quo going than to radically change their operations.

The entire Aviation industry is moving towards a point to point system of travel with smaller planes*. The failure of the major airlines in Canada to adapt realized the need for Zing Airlines.

Zing Airlines Campaign Video

they're crowdfunding to kickstart the airline.

While I see their point, I can't really see them succeeding unless they get huge backing from some serious investors, sure this crowdfunding launch may start getting them known in Canada but they'll need a lot more to get there.

Just my   

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chrisp390
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:04 pm

The branding seems a little strange and Westjet and Air Canada are in a strong enough position now that they will not ignore a startup like this and let it succeed.
 
rampbro
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting Paolo92 (Thread starter):
they're crowdfunding to kickstart the airline.

        

That and two loonies or a toonie will get you a double double eh.
 
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Cyow
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:23 pm

Slick video and good concept. Canada needs more competition. PD is not enough to compete with WS and AC.

Get at it!  
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nws2002
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:30 pm

I would not chose to start a new airline with a new, unproven aircraft like the CSeries. It is certainly a gamble, and maybe it will payoff. However, starting a new airline is already risky enough, I would go with a proven aircraft like the E-Jets on the smaller end or A320 or 737 series on the larger end.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 4):
I would not chose to start a new airline with a new, unproven aircraft like the CSeries.

Based on the quoted company text, they appear to be trading on operating Canadian-manufactured aircraft in Canada.
 
flyoregon
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:37 pm

I'm not sure how or if this will happen, but they seem to know how to put a presentation together. That adds a little bit of legitimacy to the concept. I'm not Canadian and don't know how things work up there, but the concept as a whole makes sense and I wish them the best. I'm sure that Crowd Funding will not be their only source of investment but only to get things going. Some might laugh at the idea of crowd funding for an airline, but who's to say it can't happen?
 
Metjetceo
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:55 pm

It is a great presentation.

It is unfortunate that the cost of oil is down, as investors in cities like Fort St. John, Fort McMurray, Peace River may have an interest in this concept. There are reasons why Shell and others have full service terminals at the major airports.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:07 pm

A startup would need some proof of concept at the very least to attract investors. It it would work in the long run with CS100's, it would work in the short term with cheap, used iron.

I just don't think the concept is viable, at least in Canada. I don't think there are even enough airports in the country that fit their criteria. Quebec city to Kamloops? Halifax to Edmonton? Toronto to Inuvik?

I really do wish them luck but I'm very skeptical.
What the...?
 
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nikeson13
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:43 pm

I like it. AC and WS just are ridiculous with pricing on some routes, would love to see someone else in the mix. But demand for stuff they proposed? i think that there may not be much demand for Moncton-YVR, rather just proving how versatile the CS100 is. Definitely a demand for Canada-USA, they can definitely find a niche if they do it right.

With there being two major start-ups trying to get off the ground(Jetlines, Zing), that has to mean something that other people see is needed in Canada. With fleets over 50 a/c, 2 large airlines, AC + WS, control Canada to serve about 36 million people living there, while the United States has eleven airlines, specifically AA, AS, UA, F9, VX, NK, WN, B6, HA, DL, G4 and all the regionals for 322 million people. There definitely can be another player, but with the economy right now who knows what could happen.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:01 pm

Did anyone else notice the part of the video that showed eventual service from Moncton-Europe and Halifax down south?

It sounds like they want to replicate WN, but the thing about WN is, there's a lot more cities in the US with more than 1,000,000 people than there are in Canada, and a lot of those cities don't even have the likes of WN or even G4.

I wish Zing (and the CSeries for that matter) good luck! If they work out, it will be a big win for the airline and the aircraft.
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AirCanada787
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:00 am

Well an interesting idea for sure. With Porter hopefully getting the C-Series as well it could be interesting to see it play out if they got started. While they mention serving secondary cities their potential routes seem to cover a lot of MAJOR cities.

They don't have much money raised yet, but with IndieGoGo if you don't hit your goal its not like KickStarter where you don't get the money so we will see how much their raise and what they decide to do if they don't achieve their goal. They have more than 50 days left.

Sidenote they shot the video at YQM!
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ssteve
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:10 am

$25 should get you equity, not a placard.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:38 am

Every airline was, at one time, new. There are many airlines in the world and most of them are (first) safe, and (second) reliable. Those two criteria are largely the result of a combination of excellent crew training, excellent maintenance, and excellent management.

As a practical matter, startups can do quite well. jetBlue for example is a great airline whose customers are generally quite happy with the service they get. They've got a great safety record, which we can infer comes from a combination of maintenance and training.

But even jetBlue had the benefit of a founder who had himself founded other airlines. He knew the business, and understood the complexity and risks. Shifting to this startup, ZiNG, I can't find much information on Mr. Fernandes or Mr. de Mendonca. Neither seems to have executive experience in the airline industry (although the former is said to have family employed in the industry). Surely, they can have a board of directors who are experienced, but I fear that might not be enough.

What's more, this airline will be launching with a new type of aircraft. So a young and eager management (perhaps a bit green), combined with a brand new aircraft. Maybe this isn't a concern for some, and perhaps it's a bit unfair. But I would find it hard to feel comfortable flying this airline until it had established some legitimacy in the industry. Even well-run companies can falter when entering a new business sector (I probably won't be the first to buy an Apple car, either), and this new business sector is especially challenging, with a remarkably high penalty for failure to perform to standard.

[Edited 2015-10-27 20:53:19]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 13):
As a practical matter, startups can do quite well.

They have an extremely poor track record in Canada. The population, geography highly seasonal markets and the heavily-resource based economy and its ups and downs, make profitable airline operations very difficult, especially for small startups that usually go through all their capital before they have any chance of becoming profitable.
 
planemaker
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 13):
I can't find much information on Mr. Fernandes or Mr. de Mendonca.

They are university buddies. At least they'll be able to fantasize for a while.  
'

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
They have an extremely poor track record in Canada.

JetsGo comes to mind.
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Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
They have an extremely poor track record in Canada.

JetsGo comes to mind.

One of many. A few others that come to mind:

Greyhound Air
Roots Air
Harmony Airlines
Canada 3000
Zoom
 
alfa164
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 4):

I would not chose to start a new airline with a new, unproven aircraft like the CSeries

Maybe they should rename it "Bombardier Airlines"...that might be their best bet for funding (and planes).
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planemaker
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:16 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
One of many. A few others that come to mind:

Greyhound Air
Roots Air
Harmony Airlines
Canada 3000
Zoom

On the web the following are also identified:

Canjet
Royal
Skyservice
Worldways

Zing isn't a startup, it is just a concept (a bit of a lark, really). The thread title should be changed to: Canadian Airline Concept Seeks Crowdfunding. They'll have to stand in line behind Odyssey.  
Quote:
Funds raised here will be used to pay for the initial and non-recurring cost of setting up an airline. The costs are mainly business development and passing all legal requirements and certification.

$2.5 million the two guys seek doesn't even pay for the above.
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FighterPilot
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:04 am

Another startup? How many is that now, 4? Jetlines, Jet Naked, New Leaf and now Zing? After the announcement of the other three I haven't heard a peep from them, apart from Jetlines in hot water with some investors.
Well I wish them well.

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Devilfish
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 4):
I would not chose to start a new airline with a new, unproven aircraft like the CSeries. It is certainly a gamble, and maybe it will payoff.

Well, WS have a successful run with the B736, but it has Boeing's formidable backing. If the GTF proves as reliable as the engines on that other critter and BBD can adequately support the CS100, then they may have a winner.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 6):
I'm not sure how or if this will happen, but they seem to know how to put a presentation together. That adds a little bit of legitimacy to the concept.

Unfortunately, it takes a lot more than that for the venture to be successful.

Quoting flyoregon (Reply 6):
Some might laugh at the idea of crowd funding for an airline, but who's to say it can't happen?

This is where it gets dicey...like a pyramid scheme    .

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 13):
Neither seems to have executive experience in the airline industry (although the former is said to have family employed in the industry

Any connection with the guy of AK fame?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 17):

Maybe they should rename it "Bombardier Airlines"...that might be their best bet for funding

BBD need funding themselves.          .

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Zoom
Quoting planemaker (Reply 18):
Zing isn't a startup, it is just a concept

Beginning airline names with Z seems to be jinxed...they zing and zoom in the horizon then disappear.    At least Z2 stayed for a bit...but it started under a different name.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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Quantos
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:02 pm

I don't know how other people feel about this, but the idea of a startup trying to crowdfund an airline seems so ridiculous to me that I can't even fathom that it could ever work. Not here, not anywhere. I feel like crowdfunding and actual "real" investors funding are pretty much mutually exclusive. The crowdfunding seems to be such a bad idea that it scares away any potential high-stakes investors.
Quantos,

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turjo101
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:24 pm

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zing-airlines--2#/


What a start boys...$200 so far. Another $2 499 800 to go. There are 4 backers thus far. I am gonna put in a $100 in this, just in the 1 in million chance this succeeds I can say I was one of the first 5 to back this venture.

As aviation fans; shouldn't we be supporting this? Even as a joke.
 
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3rdGen
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:30 pm

This is a great idea and will be fantastic for Canadians............and that's why Air Canada will make sure it NEVER happens.
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routeplanner
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:39 pm

I think what I see their main concept is "direct" service, not meaning N/S service. So if it actually happens, there would be many thru flights with 1 2 or 3 intermediate stops.
 
YYZFAN
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 9):
With fleets over 50 a/c, 2 large airlines, AC + WS, control Canada to serve about 36 million people living there, while the United States has eleven airlines, specifically AA, AS, UA, F9, VX, NK, WN, B6, HA, DL, G4 and all the regionals for 322 million people.

You really shouldn't compare the Canadian and US markets. Canada is defined by large distances between very dense centres, while the US has short distances between dense centres (and significantly more dense centres).

You highlighted how Canada has two big carriers for 36 million, and eleven for 322 million. This is a product of scale and operating environment. Not that this math really proves anything, but 36/2=18, and 322/11=29. If the US airlines each handled equal paxs (which they don't), they still each carry 61% more passengers than the two majors in Canada. It is flawed math to use, but I am just going off what you insinuated.

Another issue is that competition does exist more than people give credit. Most routes to the US have 2-3 carriers on it that compete. Toronto-South Florida (MIA/FLL) in the winter has AC, WS, TS, AA, and that is only the non-stop flights offered.

Domestic flying has far less competition, but there is a reason. You need significant scale to compete and make the routes work. Domestic flying isn't pure O+D, so WS and AC feed all of these domestic flights with connections from smaller locales in Canada and the US.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
With Porter hopefully getting the C-Series as well it could be interesting to see it play out if they got started

It looks very unlikely, seeing as the newly elected Federal government will not open the TPP. City council is also very hesitant to even consider a runway extension.
 
r2rho
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:14 pm

There is definitely room for further domestic competition in Canada. Fares are quite high, and given the distances involved, road is not a time-competitive option, and rail is non-existent. However, starting up an airline in this manner does not instill much confidence...

[Edited 2015-10-28 07:16:36]
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:35 pm

This venture will become reality when the aircraft buy themselves with their own cash, certification certifies itself, pilots and crew self-train and self-pay themselves. Even then, they need the resources to operate a booking system and gates at airports to check pax in.
This said, the only thing that this venture will succeed by itself is to fail starting. It does not even need AC's dedication to help it fail.
By the way, what's the likelihood of the CSeries being available for commercial service in
When I doubt... go running!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
One of many. A few others that come to mind:

Greyhound Air
Roots Air
Harmony Airlines
Canada 3000
Zoom


On the web the following are also identified:

Canjet
Royal
Skyservice
Worldways

I was only including scheduled carriers. If you include charter carriers like those you mention (I think Canjet had brief scheduled service), there are many others, e.g. Nationair, Ontario Worldair, Air Club International, among others.

And Wardair's attempt to switch from a successful charter carrier to scheduled service went badly, resulting in their demise.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Zoom
Quoting planemaker (Reply 18):
Zing isn't a startup, it is just a concept

Beginning airline names with Z seems to be jinxed...they zing and zoom in the horizon then disappear.

And Zip, AC's low-cost subsidiary (2002-2004) in western Canada. That operation, using 737-200s inherited from CP, ended when AC negotiated new labour agreements with their unions which made the mainline operation more competitive, and when the 737-200s were retired.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
And Zip

I was wondering about that too, but didn't know there actually was an airline by that name.    Thanks.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
alfa164
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RE: Canadian Startup Aims At 2017 Launch With CSeries

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 20):
Beginning airline names with Z seems to be jinxed.

But Zest - even though it has been bought and tied to Air Asia - still seems to be doing well.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....

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