DL Drops ATL-DXB Feb 11, 2016

burnsie28 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:25 pm

Delta will no longer fly ATL-DXB effective February 11, 2016

http://news.delta.com/subsidized-gul...ion-forces-delta-cancel-atl-dubai'

N867DA · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:30 pm

All eyes on EK now to follow QR and TK to ATL.

OA412 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:32 pm

Oh lawd that press release! You know, I might actually feel bad for DL (and the other US carriers) if they weren't raking money in hand over fist.

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:38 pm

I see they're lifting a page from the successful UA playbook of making a point while blowing your own nose off to spite your face. Well done

ridgid727 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:39 pm

So sad, How will we ever get from Dallas Love Field DAL to DXB?

enilria · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 pm

EK will definitely add it

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 pm

That's a lot of middle eastern route casualties lately :

AA PHL-TLV, although they claim to be purely economic reasons...okay....

DL ATL-DXB, solely blaming on ME3 per today's press release

UA IAD-KWI-BAH, combination of reduced govt traffic plus internet rumors that it was the Kuwaiti govt who kicked UA out in retaliation of forcing Kuwait Air to transport Israeli pax on JFK-LHR

On the other hand, very few bright spots :

UA SFO-TLV, plus DL upping frequency on JFK-TLV

(rumored) AA DFW-AUH, I'm putting less than 30% chance of this occurring

OA412 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I see they're lifting a page from the successful UA playbook of making a point while blowing your own nose off to spite your face. Well done

One would hope that's not what's actually happening, and that ATL-DXB really was losing money. However, given the well-documented "tiff" with EK, EY, and QR, I don't have much hope...

enilria · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Coming a day after dropping out of A4A I wonder what this bodes for Fair Skies? Presumably the Fair Skies initiative was aimed at keeping DXB as a viable station. Conversely, it is now much harder to show harm from the ME3 since there will be no service to India or the Arab Middle East on DL metal and thus the determination of losses to be blamed on the ME3 is now much more nebulous.

Also expect DL will announce the end of their interline agreement with EK immediately. DL only needed it to support the DXB flight.

777way · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
plus internet rumors that it was the Kuwaiti govt who kicked UA out in retaliation of forcing Kuwait Air to transport Israeli pax on JFK-LHR

Really, when did this happen?

321neo · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Thread starter):

Delta will no longer fly ATL-DXB effective February 11, 2016

Maybe going 10-abreast in Y and 7 abreast in J would've helped

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 9):

Really, when did this happen?

some blogger on boardingarea.com mentioned it. again, it's purely his conjecture, with nothing concrete to back it up.

OA412 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Conversely, it is now much harder to show harm from the ME3 since there will be no service to India or the Arab Middle East on DL metal and thus the determination of losses to be blamed on the ME3 is now much more nebulous.

Not at all. I'd say they had to drop them to prove "harm." "We've had to drop both BOM and DXB because we can't compete." If they continued to fly either or both, then I think blaming it on the the Gulf Carriers would be a harder sell. The obvious question in that scenario is "How are you still operating these flights if you can't compete?"

DolphinAir747 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 11):
Quoting 777way (Reply 9):

Really, when did this happen?

some blogger on boardingarea.com mentioned it. again, it's purely his conjecture, with nothing concrete to back it up.

Th theory is b*llsh*t. These changes are all due to decreased US military involvement in the region. Not some crazy conspiracy theory about Israelis and whatnot.

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:12 pm

makes you wonder how shaky the foundation is for UA's remaining IAD-DXB service .... either downgauge to 788 and hope it can weather the storm, or just surrender.

DolphinAir747 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
makes you wonder how shaky the foundation is for UA's remaining IAD-DXB service .... either downgauge to 788 and hope it can weather the storm, or just surrender.

DXB is an important global city though; I see it working from IAD much longer than from YYZ on AC at least which isn't saying much. When oil was higher I could have seen UA launching IAH RUH and possibly also IAD RUH.

RJNUT · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:19 pm

so now Delta is only legacy unable to transport travelers to the Gulf w/o transiting Europe which many high end customers detest. AA has cozied up to QR and EY and UA can carry their own (for now ) on own metal

D L X · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:20 pm

Quote:

Delta will no longer fly between Atlanta and Dubai effective Feb. 11, 2016. The announcement comes amid overcapacity on U.S. routes to the Middle East operated by government-owned and heavily subsidized airlines, and less than a month after Delta reduced service between the world’s busiest airport and the Middle East’s largest hub.

The 777 aircraft used to operate ATL-DXB will be redeployed to other Trans-Atlantic markets where it can compete on a level playing field that’s not distorted by subsidized state-owned airlines.

Them's fighting words!!

Or, take your ball and go home in tears words. Can't decide. Probably the latter.

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 7):
One would hope that's not what's actually happening, and that ATL-DXB really was losing money. However, given the well-documented "tiff" with EK, EY, and QR, I don't have much hope...

I bet it was profitable, though not at the level of margin DL is delivering day in and day out lately.

Polot · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 7):
One would hope that's not what's actually happening, and that ATL-DXB really was losing money.

It probably was losing money. I think back when DL started the route the only other nonstop to the Gulf region was EK to JFK and UA to KWI (started around the same time). DL's flight was always dependent on connections in ATL and think of how much service has been added since then. EK alone flies to 10 US cities and QR will by next summer (including ATL).

Blaming subsidies and whatnot is just a convenient excuse to help DL's narrative though.

LAXintl · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
makes you wonder how shaky the foundation is for UA's remaining IAD-DXB service .... either downgauge to 788 and hope it can weather the storm, or just surrender.

DXB does quite well. Not to worry.

However recent closure of airspace due Russian military activity in Syria is adding almost 1-hour to the trip which certainly is not helping.

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 15):

DXB is an important global city though; I see it working from IAD much longer than from YYZ on AC at least which isn't saying much. When oil was higher I could have seen UA launching IAH RUH and possibly also IAD RUH.

At the same time, AC is also a much lower cost base to work with (and I think YYZ is a much stronger hub than IAD)

UA deploys daily 77E for the route. AC is barely deploying 1x 788 + 2x 789 for a total of 3x weekly. The risk for AC seems somewhat lower.

OA412 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
I bet it was profitable, though not at the level of margin DL is delivering day in and day out lately.

Yup, that's what I assume as well...

DolphinAir747 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
The 777 aircraft used to operate ATL-DXB will be redeployed to other Trans-Atlantic markets where it can compete on a level playing field that’s not distorted by subsidized state-owned airlines.

The "level playing field" in which DL/AF and the other JVs create anti-competitive playing fields where they litigate against any all competition to their price-gouging oligopolies?

MSPNWA · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:52 pm

The headline and content is just ridiculous. Cry me a river, DL. Congratulations. You're the airline equivalent of a spoiled brat.

burnsie28 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:57 pm

Updated link: looks as if it had some ' in the original and no longer works.

http://news.delta.com/subsidized-gul...tion-forces-delta-cancel-atl-dubai

migair54 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:05 pm

I think this a clever move from DL, if the route is not doing well enough why to keep it open?? I know some people will think that is was necessary to keep the route open to keep EK, QR, etc... away, but at the end DL has to do their own business and DXB is not a big market for DL.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 16):
so now Delta is only legacy unable to transport travelers to the Gulf w/o transiting Europe which many high end customers detest. AA has cozied up to QR and EY and UA can carry their own (for now ) on own metal

They can always use AF-KLM via AMS or CDG.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
All eyes on EK now to follow QR and TK to ATL.

I'd not be surprise to see EK starting the route next march or even before.

TK has already announced ATL, starting 16MAY16. And they go big.

TK031 IST1330 – 1910ATL 77W D
TK032 ATL2200 – 1655+1IST 77W D

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 4):
So sad, How will we ever get from Dallas Love Field DAL to DXB?

26 Miles north west, you have a good option.

DolphinAir747 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 31):
Cry me a river, DL. Congratulations. You're the airline equivalent of a spoiled brat.

Curious how this fits into DL leaving A4A. Wasn't A4A supposed to help DL whine about ME3 subsidies?

NWAROOSTER · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:07 pm

If Delta is not making money the route, why should they fly it. The aircraft can used elsewhere.
Spoiled brat or else............

burnsie28 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 33):
They can always use AF-KLM via AMS or CDG.

Or VS over LHR

northwestEWR · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:15 pm

And EK announces ATL with the A380 in 3...2....1....

Quoting OA412 (Reply 12):
Not at all. I'd say they had to drop them to prove "harm." "We've had to drop both BOM and DXB because we can't compete." If they continued to fly either or both, then I think blaming it on the the Gulf Carriers would be a harder sell. The obvious question in that scenario is "How are you still operating these flights if you can't compete?"

This is what I'm hearing. It wasn't losing money, but wasn't at the margins delta wants and they can use the 77Ls elsewhere at a higher rate of return. The nail in the coffin is that it helps their anti ME3 argument.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):

I bet it was profitable, though not at the level of margin DL is delivering day in and day out lately.

MAH4546 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 11):
Quoting 777way (Reply 9):

Really, when did this happen?

some blogger on boardingarea.com mentioned it. again, it's purely his conjecture, with nothing concrete to back it up.

Hysterical that you of all people would try to discredit somebody for that.

Not only is it fully accurate that AA will likely be announcing Abu Dhabi soon, it's sounding like it will be part of a much stronger alliance AA is planning with Etihad. And I assume AA will no longer be part of the US3's ME3 slander campaign, as well.

S75752 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:19 pm

Maybe an excuse for DL to start JFK-BEY to connect with an actual partner in the Middle East, MEA , rather than trying for Dubai without a partner at the other end to make it work.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:36 pm

Good God, did Kim Jong Un write that press release?

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):

You're commenting totally out of context. My post about the conjecture was the accusation of Kuwaiti govt forcing UA out of KWI, and nothing to do with AA.

Before spilling your bile, can you go re read the thread ?!

alfa164 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 39):
Maybe an excuse for DL to start JFK-BEY to connect with an actual partner in the Middle East, MEA , rather than trying for Dubai without a partner at the other end to make it work.

I have heard that DL has been itching to go to BEY for many years (and their previous flight to AMM was a "stand-in" until that became possible), but direct USA-Lebanon flights are not allowed by government regulators due to security concerns.

global1 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:44 pm

Sad to see Dubai go, but looking forward to see where these aircraft may be deployed, and, if the rumor of a purchase of ex-Singapore frames pans out.
You will definitely see PVG bulking up over time (an ATL-PVG restart is pretty much a given). Revisiting ATL-BOM is also a possibility.

OA412 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 43):
Revisiting ATL-BOM is also a possibility.

No way. That would hurt their case re:inability to compete against the Gulf Carriers.

jmdc861 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:51 pm

Can't wait till the final chapter is written in this story with the inaugural arrival of an EK A-380 at ATL. Oh Happy Day!

Yes, the spoiled brat is running home to Mommy!

JMDC861

Qantas744er · Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
DXB does quite well. Not to worry.

However recent closure of airspace due Russian military activity in Syria is adding almost 1-hour to the trip which certainly is not helping.

There is a FDC NOTAM http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...-8442-kfdc-a0031-15-tehran-fir.pdf Section C. stating in part: EXERCISE CAUTION DURING FLIGHT OPERATIONS DUE TO MILITARY ACTIVITY IN TEHRAN FIR (OIIX), ASSOCIATED WITH THE ONGOING CONFLICTS IN SYRIA AND IRAQ.

Nothing that prevents UA from dispatching through Iran, I'm guessing they would rather be on the extra safe side for the time being?

EK231 is currently being dispatched passing through Iran, heading north and then entering western Turkey, UA977 and DL7 have been passing north of Qatar and then heading west across Saudi Arabia, hence the additional hour on their DXB-IAD/ATL routings.

Note: European operators such as BA/LH/AF/VS are using the Iran/turkey routing.

Iran has enjoyed a massive increase in overflights over the past year thanks to the Russia/Ukraine conflict and the Russian intervention in Syria. Overflights in the past 6 months are up 32%, with certain days even seeing 180% increases. Lots of very welcome foreign revenue.

Note: The optimal DXB-IAD/Eastern/Central U.S. routing is typically north from DXB, over eastern Iran, then across the Caspian sea, passing overhead Baku and continuing north towards Russia towards Estonia and then across Norway. EK initially suspended this routing when the Russians initiated missile launches headed to Syria from the Caspian sea.

[Edited 2015-10-28 10:04:16]

[Edited 2015-10-28 10:05:50]

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 43):
You will definitely see PVG bulking up over time (an ATL-PVG restart is pretty much a given). Revisiting ATL-BOM is also a possibility.

What? Why?

ATL-PVG has been tried twice and did not work.

ATL-BOM was short lived. Outside NYC/YYZ, there really isnt a good market to launch India flights from at all.

777way · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:11 pm

DL have deleted the page, why?

global1 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:12 pm

I don't know enough about yields or the effect it may have on their case against the ME3, but for someone traveling, say, from Kansas City to BOM, to use an ME3 carrier you would first have to go to a US gateway, then DXB, then BOM.
Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

They did say the frames on ATL-DXB (72LR) would be used for 'transatlantic" expansion. You hardly need an LR to fly to AMS or CDG.

seabosdca · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
take your ball and go home in tears words.

That's about right. It's really embarrassing to see our US airlines, normally fierce competitors, whine and complain like little kids about the ME3. Yes, the ME3 have unfair structural advantages. Lobby for governmental action to help resolve that, but stop with the publicity campaigns. They just make you look weak.

N867DA · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

If this were true then the service launched in 2008 or 2009 would still be around. India has only gotten more competitive since that time thanks to the expansion of the ME3 carriers. The Indian economy has also never really taken off the way people thought it would before the GFC. If DL wants to restart nonstop east coast - India flights, JFK is the logical starting point. But this time, they should find a local partner in India to offer onward connections, and should make it as seamless as possible.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 51):
If this were true then the service launched in 2008 or 2009 would still be around. India has only gotten more competitive since that time thanks to the expansion of the ME3 carriers. The Indian economy has also never really taken off the way people thought it would before the GFC. If DL wants to restart nonstop east coast - India flights, JFK is the logical starting point. But this time, they should find a local partner in India to offer onward connections, and should make it as seamless as possible.

This right here.

The environment for flights to India has gotten far less favorable than it was when ATL-BOM was flown. If it failed then, it will definately fail now.

xdlx · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 51):

I say go SEA-DEL!

GavinSharp · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 48):

It's not deleted, the link in the original post is just broken

http://news.delta.com/subsidized-gul...tion-forces-delta-cancel-atl-dubai

a380787 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 53):
I say go SEA-DEL!

That's a nice way to burn millions. UA with the huge tech traffic out of SFO plus AI feed at the DEL end still didn't want to launch SFO-DEL themselves (letting AI do the dirty work instead). For DL to see SEA-DEL would be near commercial suicide, no matter how much Microsoft and Amazon one wants to talk about.

airbazar · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 51):
If this were true then the service launched in 2008 or 2009 would still be around. India has only gotten more competitive since that time thanks to the expansion of the ME3 carriers.

By the same token in the last 10 years the US6 have become the US3 and they have gotten much stronger and much more profitable. I don't buy the argument that U.S.-India only works from NYC. Where do you think the majority of EK's traffic from its 2x daily 77W from BOS is going to? Certainly not Australia.

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