DL Drops ATL-DXB Feb 11, 2016

enilria · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 12):
Not at all. I'd say they had to drop them to prove "harm." "We've had to drop both BOM and DXB because we can't compete." If they continued to fly either or both, then I think blaming it on the the Gulf Carriers would be a harder sell.

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
The announcement comes amid overcapacity on U.S. routes to the Middle East operated by government-owned and heavily subsidized airlines, and less than a month after Delta reduced service between the world’s busiest airport and the Middle East’s largest hub.

EK has 44% of the departures from DXB. 66% if you include FlyDubai (which I would only even mention because the ownership is similar, but they are completely separate airlines). DL has 79% of ATL departures. DL also exceeds EK on % of seats, even combined with FlyDubai.

ATL has 3 foreign flags presently that aren't JV partners of DL (and one is KE, a code share partner). DXB has more than I can count, approximately 75. Despite that, ATL is about 10% ahead of DXB on total size. DXB is much more competitive than ATL in terms of level of domination and competition. If the deck is so much more stacked against the other carriers in DXB than ATL, why is there much less competition in ATL than DXB?

northwestEWR · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 44):

Quoting global1 (Reply 43):
Revisiting ATL-BOM is also a possibility.

No way. That would hurt their case re:inability to compete against the Gulf Carriers.

I agree that it would hurt their case. But the real reason is that it's a monster of a route. ULR and low yield = BURN money.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 47):
ATL-PVG has been tried twice and did not work.

Except now they're working closely with China Eastern for onward connections.

Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

And that still didn't save the route. There's just not enough high dollar travel to BOM to justify the ULR ATL-BOM route.

Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
They did say the frames on ATL-DXB (72LR) would be used for 'transatlantic" expansion. You hardly need an LR to fly to AMS or CDG.

I noticed that too... I'd expect they'll trade 77Ls for 77Es for TATL and use these frames in the Pacific. SEA-HKG anyone?

jfklganyc · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:55 pm

This should have been a JFK flight on DL all along

They are going to lose money on these flights no matter what.

At least you have O and D to pull from and a hub. How many O and D people ATL-DXB every day? Next to none? DL never stood a chance with connectors. Every major city they are connecting to already as a 380 with an Emirates flag on it.

N867DA · Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 56):
By the same token in the last 10 years the US6 have become the US3 and they have gotten much stronger and much more profitable. I don't buy the argument that U.S.-India only works from NYC. Where do you think the majority of EK's traffic from its 2x daily 77W from BOS is going to? Certainly not Australia.

They are going to the Indian subcontinent, but not necessarily to just BOM or DEL. Flying on a hypothetical BOS-BOM on DL means BOS-BOM-Somewhere. Connecting in BOM is not always convenient, especially International to Domestic because flights from the US reach in the middle of the night and you have to wait until morning for the connecting flight. Connecting in DXB/DOH/AUH or even IST lets you go straight to BLR or where ever else. Heck, I've heard a lot of folks on the ATL-DXB flight were connecting in DXB to India...and avoiding the dreaded overnight stay.

The way DL can work around this is by scheduling the nonstop to have very favorable connections to key Indian cities, and working to streamline the connection process. Maybe building closer ties with SpiceJet or Vistara can be considered. If I look at a route map and the only service shown to India is one line to BOM, then that does not bode well for the carrier in today's marketplace.

Osubuckeyes · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 58):
Except now they're working closely with China Eastern for onward connections.

Meh, ATL is a inferior connection point to PVG for most of the US furthermore PVG isn't a great connection point compared to NRT or ICN. In reality I would imagine ATL-PVG would be marginally better at the very best in addition to hurting DTW-PVG.

D L X · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 50):
Lobby for governmental action to help resolve that, but stop with the publicity campaigns. They just make you look weak.

Especially when a successful campaign will necessarily drive fares UP. (Like, why is the public necessarily going to be supportive? If the Arab governments are subsidizing, they're subsidizing US also!)

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 58):
Except now they're working closely with China Eastern for onward connections.

They were working closely when it last failed. Maybe theyve gotten a bit closer, but not enough to make a difference. They have DTW and SEA, I just dont see that things have change that much.

ScottB · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
for someone traveling, say, from Kansas City to BOM, to use an ME3 carrier you would first have to go to a US gateway, then DXB, then BOM.
Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

The issue is that India is for the most part a highly price-sensitive market, so virtually all MCI-India passengers will put up with another connection (on what is already a very long trip) in order to save a few hundred bucks or more. And DL has no real interest in price-matching the ME3 to drive traffic.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 4):
So sad, How will we ever get from Dallas Love Field DAL to DXB?

I realize you're being facetious, but there's nothing really stopping anyone from building their own connection like DAL-BOS on WN and BOS-DXB on EK...

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 64):
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 4):
So sad, How will we ever get from Dallas Love Field DAL to DXB?

I realize you're being facetious, but there's nothing really stopping anyone from building their own connection like DAL-BOS on WN and BOS-DXB on EK...

Not to mention, there is a 380 every day to DXB just 10 miles away at DFW....

alfa164 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 53):
I say go SEA-DEL!

If that were such a good market, they might be better off connecting their SEA-NRT flight with NRT-DEL.

Polot · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
They did say the frames on ATL-DXB (72LR) would be used for 'transatlantic" expansion. You hardly need an LR to fly to AMS or CDG.

I think you are reading way too much into that statement in the press release. They never say anything about transatlantic expansion, and DL knows that 99% of the people reading the PR are never going to check to see if they actually follow up on everything they say they will do with the aircraft.

enilria · Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 64):
Quoting global1 (Reply 49):
for someone traveling, say, from Kansas City to BOM, to use an ME3 carrier you would first have to go to a US gateway, then DXB, then BOM.
Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

The issue is that India is for the most part a highly price-sensitive market, so virtually all MCI-India passengers will put up with another connection (on what is already a very long trip) in order to save a few hundred bucks or more. And DL has no real interest in price-matching the ME3 to drive traffic.

I think the other side of that coin which the US3 never acknowledge is that if the ME3 didn't exist and fares were much higher, the number of people traveling between the USA and India would be dramatically lessened. It would guess in the 70% smaller range. The irony is that one of the things that makes this market such a point of discussion is the large size of the market, and it is large because of the ME3 pricing. There's more traffic between the U.S. and India than Italy, Jamaica, Bahamas, or Korea. It's as big as Netherlands and Spain combined. You get rid of the ME3 and you get rid of the traffic too.

SESGDL · Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 63):
They have DTW and SEA, I just dont see that things have change that much.

They also operate LAX-PVG as well.

Jeremy

UAEflyer · Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:39 pm

This is DL last card to play with to tell the White House to stop the ME3.
A flight with 85% load and it does make profit for them without any doubt, in addition to the cargo.
It is the wrong way DL , keep going.

rbavfan · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):

Good point. Delta has their super hub and does everything possible to stop competition there. But EK is a bad gu because they are controlling DBX. So their 44% control is more damaging than Delta's 79% in Atlanta, Southwest control in DAL & AA control in DFW & UA at Newark. But DL, AA & UA accused EK of trying to block out competition! Really.

enilria · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:27 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 64):
Quoting enilria (Reply 50):

Good point. Delta has their super hub and does everything possible to stop competition there. But EK is a bad gu because they are controlling DBX. So their 44% control is more damaging than Delta's 79% in Atlanta, Southwest control in DAL & AA control in DFW & UA at Newark. But DL, AA & UA accused EK of trying to block out competition! Really.

I'm kind of surprised EK hasn't made that point, however, I think at this point the whole brouhaha is close to dead, so I guess we should all let it die a peaceful death unless some other mess springs forth.

FlyPNS1 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
ATL has 3 foreign flags presently that aren't JV partners of DL (and one is KE, a code share partner). DXB has more than I can count, approximately 75.

Most of ATL's traffic is domestic (which foreign flags can't fly), so your comparison is kind of meaningless.

Quoting enilria (Reply 61):
There's more traffic between the U.S. and India than Italy, Jamaica, Bahamas, or Korea.

I would certainly hope so, given that India is vastly larger than those countries and has an economy that is growing faster than any of those countries. Even if only 15% of India's population could afford to fly, that would be more people than all of those countries you listed combined!!!

SATexan · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
Where do you think the majority of EK's traffic from its 2x daily 77W from BOS is going to? Certainly not Australia.

Exactly !! This is precisely what Tim Clark asked when he made a presentation rebutting the US3 complaint to DoT.

The perception of A.net is that Indians are price sensitive and that the yields to India are trash. The other oft repeated assumption is that the Indian economy hasn't really taken off. These are all inaccurate assessments. I go to India often and I have seen the tremendous increase in purchasing power.

Just to give a few examples:

A latte at a Starbucks in India costs about the same as in the States and yet nearly every Starbucks in India is packed to the gills.

A Hyundai Elantra V6 in India costs well over 25K USD that is nearly 10K more than Elantra variant that is offered in USA. Yet Hyundai isn't complaining.

A 16GB iPhone6 costs about 650-700 USD in India and yet the sale of IPhones continue to surge in India. Apple is on track to sell 2 million iPhones in India this year.

Every major restaurant chain in the US (Ruby Tuesday, TGI Friday, California Pizza Kitchen, Chili's, KFC, McDonald's, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Domino's etc) are making a beeline to enter the Indian market. They are all expanding.

Home prices and rents in Mumbai, Bangalore and Delhi are through the roof. If Indians were price sensitive they wouldn't be able to live in those cities. Yet, those cities are actually adding population..

Trust me, there is purchasing power in India. India is a technology hub with virtually every company that matters having their presence. There is enough of a market between most major cities in USA to India to make nonstop flights work. If only the US3 knew how to compete instead of complain...

Back to the original topic

Quoting burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Delta will no longer fly ATL-DXB effective February 11, 2016

Sad to see this route go away. I have connected to India on this route in the past. Was definitely very convenient for me..

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
Exactly !! This is precisely what Tim Clark asked when he made a presentation rebutting the US3 complaint to DoT.

The perception of A.net is that Indians are price sensitive and that the yields to India are trash. The other oft repeated assumption is that the Indian economy hasn't really taken off. These are all inaccurate assessments. I go to India often and I have seen the tremendous increase in purchasing power.

Just to give a few examples:

A latte at a Starbucks in India costs about the same as in the States and yet nearly every Starbucks in India is packed to the gills.

A Hyundai Elantra V6 in India costs well over 25K USD that is nearly 10K more than Elantra variant that is offered in USA. Yet Hyundai isn't complaining.

A 16GB iPhone6 costs about 650-700 USD in India and yet the sale of IPhones continue to surge in India. Apple is on track to sell 2 million iPhones in India this year.

Every major restaurant chain in the US (Ruby Tuesday, TGI Friday, California Pizza Kitchen, Chili's, KFC, McDonald's, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Domino's etc) are making a beeline to enter the Indian market. They are all expanding.

Home prices and rents in Mumbai, Bangalore and Delhi are through the roof. If Indians were price sensitive they wouldn't be able to live in those cities. Yet, those cities are actually adding population..

Trust me, there is purchasing power in India. India is a technology hub with virtually every company that matters having their presence. There is enough of a market between most major cities in USA to India to make nonstop flights work. If only the US3 knew how to compete instead of complain...

Apples and oranges...

The market is price sensitive. That has nothing to do with trying to generalize or categorize. Its what the data shows. Average fares are very low outside a few markets.

FlyPNS1 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
Trust me, there is purchasing power in India.

Purchasing power doesn't mean high yield air fares. People in New York City have high incomes, but air fares from New York to Florida are still quite low.

Whether in India or the U.S., price still drives most ticket buyers decisions. EK can afford to offer much lower prices, so they win the India-U.S. market.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
If only the US3 knew how to compete instead of complain...

The only way the US3 could compete would be to slash fares to money-losing lows.

CALMSP · Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):

but, if its like the Starbucks here in the states, they are packed, but its people who aren't drinking coffee, theyre in there writing the screenplay as the next hollywood blockbuster!

tortugamon · Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
EK has 44% of the departures from DXB. 66% if you include FlyDubai (which I would only even mention because the ownership is similar, but they are completely separate airlines). DL has 79% of ATL departures. DL also exceeds EK on % of seats, even combined with FlyDubai.

How is this relevant? Are international carriers not given access to ATL? DXB?

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 64):
But EK is a bad gu because they are controlling DBX.

Who says? I don't think DL is complaining about access to DXB.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 67):
There is enough of a market between most major cities in USA to India to make nonstop flights work. If only the US3 knew how to compete instead of complain...

Connecting flights where traffic can be consolidated like those through DXB are always going to be cheaper than non-stop ULH and the Indian market has shown to be more cost-sensitive than most. Yes there are ULH opportunities that haven't been explored but we are talking DEL and BOM, maybe BLR - no way ULH works in with existing technology to third tier cities in India like EK flies to by the dozen.

tortugamon

B727skyguy · Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Delta will no longer fly ATL-DXB effective February 11, 2016

http://news.delta.com/subsidized-gul...ubai'

The information has been deleted or does not exist. Here's the response I got when I clicked on the link:

Page Not Found

Sorry, we could not find the page you requested.

Try searching for what you are looking for, or return to the Home Page

[Edited 2015-10-28 16:55:11]

redadeco · Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:48 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
That's a lot of middle eastern route casualties lately :

AA PHL-TLV, although they claim to be purely economic reasons...okay....

DL ATL-DXB, solely blaming on ME3 per today's press release

UA IAD-KWI-BAH, combination of reduced govt traffic plus internet rumors that it was the Kuwaiti govt who kicked UA out in retaliation of forcing Kuwait Air to transport Israeli pax on JFK-LHR

On the other hand, very few bright spots :

UA SFO-TLV, plus DL upping frequency on JFK-TLV

(rumored) AA DFW-AUH, I'm putting less than 30% chance of this occurring

I don't see why connecting Israel to other Middle Eastern markets. They're totally independent and there's absolutely no way to connect between each other.

S75752 · Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 35):
but direct USA-Lebanon flights are not allowed by government regulators due to security concerns.

Still? I mean, I get that Israel absolutely loves to pick on Lebanon and BEY, but would they really have the guts to do something to an American flight?

Quoting global1 (Reply 42):

Or you could fly KCI-ATL-BOM, as an example. Much more convenient and timely.

Anything DL does to India is doomed to fail without a partner on the other end. Same with AA.

Quoting B727skyguy (Reply 72):

Page Not Found

Sorry, we could not find the page you requested.

Try searching for what you are looking for, or return to the Home Page

There's an ' at the end of the OP link that you need to delete.

BestWestern · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:12 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):
the Indian market has shown to be more cost-sensitive than most.

In my experience, in business negotiations two countries try to squeeze blood from a stone when it comes to negotiations- one is India and one is Israel. They are both well known for their purchasing ability.

LAX772LR · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 32):
Maybe an excuse for DL to start JFK-BEY to connect with an actual partner in the Middle East, MEA , rather than trying for Dubai without a partner at the other end to make it work.

They've wanted to, but not been allowed.

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
ATL has 3 foreign flags presently that aren't JV partners of DL (and one is KE, a code share partner). DXB has more than I can count, approximately 75. Despite that, ATL is about 10% ahead of DXB on total size. DXB is much more competitive than ATL in terms of level of domination and competition. If the deck is so much more stacked against the other carriers in DXB than ATL, why is there much less competition in ATL than DXB?

That is not an analogous comparison at all. The overwhelming majority of ATL's market is domestic (a market which DXB essentially doesn't have) and yet you're only comparing international as a measure of competitiveness. Ridiculous.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 51):
I'd expect they'll trade 77Ls for 77Es for TATL and use these frames in the Pacific. SEA-HKG anyone?

If a 777 was what would make or break SEA-HKG, then they could've put one on there a long time ago... plenty of swaps they could do.

Viscount724 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
All eyes on EK now to follow QR and TK to ATL.

EK already has freighter service to ATL. Started last year with 777F. Stops in FRA westbound and in CPH eastbound.

SATexan · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 75):
In my experience, in business negotiations two countries try to squeeze blood from a stone when it comes to negotiations- one is India and one is Israel. They are both well known for their purchasing ability.

and the Chinese are not???

DolphinAir747 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting redadeco (Reply 73):

I don't see why connecting Israel to other Middle Eastern markets. They're totally independent and there's absolutely no way to connect between each other.

A bunch of wacky conspiracy theories being circulated as clickbait on blogs suggest that they are related.

C010T3 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:21 am

Quote:
The 777 aircraft used to operate ATL-DXB will be redeployed to other Trans-Atlantic markets where it can compete on a level playing field that’s not distorted by subsidized state-owned airlines.

Maybe now Delta will start building up a decent coverage of Europe.

enilria · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 66):

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):
ATL has 3 foreign flags presently that aren't JV partners of DL (and one is KE, a code share partner). DXB has more than I can count, approximately 75.

Most of ATL's traffic is domestic (which foreign flags can't fly), so your comparison is kind of meaningless.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 76):
That is not an analogous comparison at all. The overwhelming majority of ATL's market is domestic (a market which DXB essentially doesn't have) and yet you're only comparing international as a measure of competitiveness. Ridiculous.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 66):
I would certainly hope so, given that India is vastly larger than those countries

It's also much further away and much poorer on average.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 71):
How is this relevant? Are international carriers not given access to ATL? DXB?

So you feel that 3 foreign carriers not in JVs with the hub airline is about right for the world's largest airport?

The argument that was made by the Fair Skies group and referred to in today's press release was that the other carriers couldn't compete with EK because of the inherent subsidies of govt ownership, yet ATL is considerably less competitive than DXB by any statistic. It would therefore appear it is harder to succeed in ATL than in DXB as a competitor. For that not to be the case it would mean that in Atlanta there are opportunities for more competition, but other airlines are just passing them up; while in Dubai it would mean the opposite. That airlines thought erroneously there was an opportunity to succeed, but found there wasn't and yet still decided to stay on losing money. Today's move also reinforces the more likely theory that airlines vote with their feet when they are losing money which implies competitors do, in fact, do better in DXB than ATL as evidence by the increased level of competition in DXB.

Cubsrule · Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 81):
It would therefore appear it is harder to succeed in ATL than in DXB as a competitor. For that not to be the case it would mean that in Atlanta there are opportunities for more competition, but other airlines are just passing them up; while in Dubai it would mean the opposite.

Wouldn't Atlanta and Dubai have to be comparable markets for any of this to be true?

DolphinAir747 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 80):
Maybe now Delta will start building up a decent coverage of Europe.

DL has a great European network, flying to plenty of small European cities including many neglected or grossly underserved by other carriers. Granted it's all out of JFK but ATL or DTW can definitely not support flight to places like AGP, PSA, VCE, NCE, SNN, CPH, SVO, etc.

northwestEWR · Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 82):
Wouldn't Atlanta and Dubai have to be comparable markets for any of this to be true?

Absolutely. ATL is the world's busiest airport because of the Delta hub, not because it's the busiest market.

Q · Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:55 am

Is Delta not keep City Dubai serve anymore? Or will keep Dubai from JFK or stopover somewhere else to keep serve DXB?

Q

enilria · Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 82):
Wouldn't Atlanta and Dubai have to be comparable markets for any of this to be true?

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 84):
Absolutely. ATL is the world's busiest airport because of the Delta hub, not because it's the busiest market.

Couldn't the exact same thing be said about Dubai? In fact, I think it was virtually said in the Fair Skies documents that complained that it didn't have demand to justify its level of service. In terms of O&D size, DXB is about 20% bigger than ATL, and while it is behind ATL in capacity currently, it will probably surpass ATL in the next few years. They ae actually very similar markets apart from the fact that nearly all of of DXB's service is int'l.

SATexan · Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 70):
but, if its like the Starbucks here in the states, they are packed, but its people who aren't drinking coffee, theyre in there writing the screenplay as the next hollywood blockbuster

Totally Off topic, but had to share this. At quite a few packed SB in India, the staff is seen routinely walking around looking for folks not actively eating or drinking and telling them to pack up. Similar to some places in Manhattan...
Even better, when customers don't find place to sit, they complain to the staff telling them about folks hanging on to chairs even when they are not dining...

BestWestern · Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting SATexan (Reply 78):
and the Chinese are not???

Mainland Chinese are pussycats in comparison, interested in more than just best price. They are not as skilled in squeezing blood from stones.

jacobin777 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 86):
They ae actually very similar markets apart from the fact that nearly all of of DXB's service is int'l.

While I don't know who's right or who's wrong in this discussion many of DXB's international routes would be easily be considered a domestic route from/to ATL.

FCAFLYBOY · Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:57 am

Guess once daily with a sub-par product and service compared to EK just wasn't enough to compete. The fuel subsidy thing is laughable and delta are just embarrassing themselves now.

Grow up and admit EK is a better airline in the market place and that will actually save you more face than telling stories. It's like they are 3 years olds telling tales..

delimit · Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 86):
In terms of O&D size, DXB is about 20% bigger than ATL

So not that similar.

Dubai served by more international airlines because all of its service is international and has a larger O&D market. Relative geography also is a factor. As far as most of Asia and Africa is concerned, Atlanta is the middle of nowhere. The only reason Atlanta is as large as it is is it's central location in the largest aviation market; but that market is relatively isolated internationally. It makes sense for carriers from other countries to connect to different cities in the US.

aryonoco · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:32 pm

What does DL actually want to achieve from this campaign? You want to cut a route, fine. It's within an airline's purview to cut a route, profitable or not.

But what does whining against the ME3 actually get you? Do you seriously believe you will gain people's support by a PR release like that? Do you seriously believe that people will be actively clamouring to cut ME3's access to US and drive up their own ticket prices? Surely you are not that delusional, right? In which case, it makes me wonder, what does DL actually want to achieve?

Qatara340 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 92):
What does DL actually want to achieve from this campaign? You want to cut a route, fine. It's within an airline's purview to cut a route, profitable or not.

But what does whining against the ME3 actually get you? Do you seriously believe you will gain people's support by a PR release like that? Do you seriously believe that people will be actively clamouring to cut ME3's access to US and drive up their own ticket prices? Surely you are not that delusional, right? In which case, it makes me wonder, what does DL actually want to achieve?

Totally agree!

Delta is truly annoying, for the lack of a better word; they think whining will actually get them what they want.

micstatic · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:17 pm

I'm also getting tired of Delta's media messages lately. I'm a medallion customer of theirs, and frankly respect alot of things they have done lately. However, the whining in the media is not one of them. As a consumer I appreciate competition. A press release like this reads like it was constructed by an adolescent. They need to get back to acting like a leader in global aviation.

enilria · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 89):
Quoting enilria (Reply 86):
They ae actually very similar markets apart from the fact that nearly all of of DXB's service is int'l.

While I don't know who's right or who's wrong in this discussion many of DXB's international routes would be easily be considered a domestic route from/to ATL.

And that's another reason why the markets are similar.

Quoting delimit (Reply 91):
Quoting enilria (Reply 86):
In terms of O&D size, DXB is about 20% bigger than ATL

So not that similar.

Actually for airports of that size, that's very pretty close. There aren't so many airports in that class that you are going to have 25 with virtually the same traffic level.

Quoting delimit (Reply 91):
The only reason Atlanta is as large as it is is it's central location in the largest aviation market;

Exactly like Dubai.

Quoting delimit (Reply 91):
but that market is relatively isolated internationally.

Exactly like Dubai. Most of the large intl markets are quite far from Dubai, except quasi domestic ones like DOH and AUH. DXB-IST is as far as ATL-LAX. The average int'l flight in ATL is 2,432 miles and the average flight outside the UAE from DXB is 1,985. If you extend DXB to the Arabian peninsula it is about the same distance.

Quoting delimit (Reply 91):
It makes sense for carriers from other countries to connect to different cities in the US.

Does it? ATL is a great connect point for Florida, Texas, and California coming from Europe, MidEast, and Africa. It/s arguably the best hub to the Caribbean from anywhere in the USA except Florida, given that MIA is significantly circuitous to the Northeast USA from much of the Caribbean. From Asia it's fine to East of the MS and from South America it is second only to MIA IMHO.

hohd · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:33 pm

In a way it is good for ATL, now they can attract more foreign carriers. DL saw the writing on the wall, with QR announcing and especially TK, TK hurts DL traffic both sides, including most of Europe as well. This is looking good for both QR and TK. Look for EK to come to ATL perhaps a year from now.

a380787 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
given that MIA is significantly circuitous to the Northeast USA from much of the Caribbean.

ATL is actually more circuitous for NE-Carib. Among the SE hubs, the least is CLT.

But from the northeast, in many cases, a connection via NYC/WAS is actual much shorter than any of the SE hubs.

slcdeltarumd11 · Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:54 pm

No shock here, funny how a.net mentioned this as deltas most profitable route. Clearly it is burning money, and airfares are too low with the ME3. The ME3 are tough to compete with

enilria · Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 97):
Among the SE hubs, the least is CLT.

But CLT is not really in the same conversation as DXB and ATL in terms of world hubs.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 97):
ATL is actually more circuitous for NE-Carib.

Well, it's pretty close. It's within 3% on STT-BOS.

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