777way
Topic Author
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:45 pm

Happened last month not sure if it was discussed here http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2015/10/airlines-middle-east
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:52 pm

Well then, Kuwait Airlines can't fly to or from the US until someone changes their laws then - the US can't force the airline to violate its home countries law, and the home country cannot force the airline to violate US law, so the situation is a stalemate.

As the article says, this has huge knock on effects and could lead to some diplomatic spats in the coming months.
 
777way
Topic Author
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Its been over fifteen days so I guess KU accepted DOT ruling.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5278
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Well then, Kuwait Airlines can't fly to or from the US until someone changes their laws then - the US can't force the airline to violate its home countries law, and the home country cannot force the airline to violate US law, so the situation is a stalemate.

As the article says, this has huge knock on effects and could lead to some diplomatic spats in the coming months.

I believe this is more about JFK-LHR under 5th freedom and from a US point of sale. So that is probably where the DOJ can come in and say.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
the US can't force the airline to violate its home countries law

Unless the US is forcing KU to fly JFK-LHR, no one is forcing KU to violate Kuwaiti law. If they do not want to adhere to OUR laws, they are welcome to not fly here. That's how law works.

That's also how diplomacy works. When there is a conflict of laws between two nations (as there almost always is), the two nations, or the parties that want to do business between the two nations, need to sit down and negotiate how they're going to do it and make both parties as happy as possible.

With that said, I can't see how this thread will be anything other than a rehash of this one:

American/Israeli Files Suit Against Kuwait Airways (by jfklganyc Feb 6 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9476
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Interestingly enough the same man (Eldad Gatt) filed a complaint against QR for a similar reason back in August.

While I agree that ff you are flying to the US you should be force to accommodate Israeli passengers on 5th freedom tags, this man is clearly fishing for trouble.
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
Well then, Kuwait Airlines can't fly to or from the US until someone changes their laws then

That is only half-true. They can keep flying JFK-KWI. You need a visa to get into Kuwait and since they will not issue them to any non-Muslim Israeli, they can simply deny boarding to an Israeli passport holder on the basis of not having a valid Kuwait visa which is permissible under American law. The problem here was the flight was to KWI via LHR. Great Britain does not require a visa so Kuwait airlines could not use that excuse to deny the Israeli passenger boarding privileges.
As for the JFK-LHR-KWI flight, Kuwait Airlines can either cut the LHR part of the flight out or allow Israeli passport holders on the plane.
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1896
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
Interestingly enough the same man (Eldad Gatt) filed a complaint against QR for a similar reason back in August.

It's very likely that he is just playing the system for a settlement. Regardless, QR does fly Israelis and as A.net showed us recently will sell connections on RJ to TLV.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13788
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:14 pm

Why doesnt KU just fly nonstop KWI-JFK? What is the point of the LHR stop? Not enough PAX to fill KWI-JFK as a stand alone flight?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
While I agree that ff you are flying to the US you should be force to accommodate Israeli passengers on 5th freedom tags, this man is clearly fishing for trouble.

As to the fishing for trouble statement, I have mixed feelings. This man is clearly trying to stir up tension and force airlines from countries that do not recognize Israel to do something they do not want to do. On the flip side, many of the big American civil rights cases/advances have come from people stirring up trouble – i.e. doing things that they knew would lead to confrontation and/or litigation.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 7):
It's very likely that he is just playing the system for a settlement

Here is the suit in question. The plaintiff did not ask for damages but rather sought an injunction requiring Kuwait Airlines to fly Israeli passport holders to London. The fact that he isn’t seeking money damages perhaps make him look a little better.
http://www.thelawfareproject.org/KuwaitAirways.pdf
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
As for the JFK-LHR-KWI flight, Kuwait Airlines can either cut the LHR part of the flight out or allow Israeli passport holders on the plane.

I basically agree here.

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
not issue them to any non-Muslim Israeli

Is it for every Israeli or just non-Muslim Israelis?
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 3):
I believe this is more about JFK-LHR under 5th freedom and from a US point of sale. So that is probably where the DOJ can come in and say.

I'm not disputing that the DoJ or DoT has the ability to tell the airline to stop violating US law.

Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
Unless the US is forcing KU to fly JFK-LHR, no one is forcing KU to violate Kuwaiti law. If they do not want to adhere to OUR laws, they are welcome to not fly here. That's how law works.

Uh, as I said, the US *cannot* force the airline to violate its home countries laws, only follow US law, so the only logical outcome if someone does not change their law is the airline stops flying to and from the US - you are essentially rephrasing exactly what I said, just in an unduly aggressive manner.

Bloody hell some posters are touchy today...

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
That is only half-true. They can keep flying JFK-KWI. You need a visa to get into Kuwait and since they will not issue them to any non-Muslim Israeli, they can simply deny boarding to an Israeli passport holder on the basis of not having a valid Kuwait visa which is permissible under American law.

Denying the passenger the visa would be an interesting way around it for trips terminating in KWI, indeed.

Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
As for the JFK-LHR-KWI flight, Kuwait Airlines can either cut the LHR part of the flight out or allow Israeli passport holders on the plane.

And the Kuwaiti law basically means the LHR segment will be cut.

[Edited 2015-10-28 09:42:06]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25751
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Why doesnt KU just fly nonstop KWI-JFK? What is the point of the LHR stop? Not enough PAX to fill KWI-JFK as a stand alone flight?

KU flies both KWI-JFK and KWI-LHR-JFK.
a.
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 10):
Is it for every Israeli or just non-Muslim Israelis?

I was not sure about the rule here and didn't want to make a false statement. I know the rules can be messy for Israeli Muslims visiting other Arab countries with one example being noted in the link below.

http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.615855
 
777way
Topic Author
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:50 pm

So basically Israelis cant twist US around their fingers, becaus ethis guys didnt take any action from thr European side, yes he was flying JFK-LHR but what was his return trip on, considering he tried same with Qatar Airways.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 11):
And the Kuwaiti law basically means the LHR segment will be cut.

Or maybe they will simply stop selling tickets for JFK-LHR in the USA, and make everyone purchase their tickets outside of the US DoT jurisdiction.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 15):
Or maybe they will simply stop selling tickets for JFK-LHR in the USA, and make everyone purchase their tickets outside of the US DoT jurisdiction.

If the plane flies JFK-LHR, I can't see how it would be outside DOT jurisdiction.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9476
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 15):

I don't think stopping US passengers from buying JFK-LHR would help their case that much....that is a clear example of giving "any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to any particular person,” which is forbidden. The very fact that the flight touches US soil means there will always be some US DOT jurisdiction over it, you can't escape or get around it.

It would be either stop flying JFK-LHR or stop selling any local traffic, to anyone, on that segment requiring all JFK originating passengers to continue on to KWI.
 
User avatar
speedbored
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
If the plane flies JFK-LHR, I can't see how it would be outside DOT jurisdiction.

I didn't say the flight would be, just the ticket sales. This would avoid any discrimination occurring within the DoTs jurisdiction. Just the sort of fudge that is used to get around conflicting laws in commerce all over the world.

An alternative "fudge" would be to code-share with a US airline and only sell JFK-LHR via the code-share, so as to allow Israelis to travel without breaking the Kuwait Law.
 
D L X
Posts: 12478
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 18):

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
If the plane flies JFK-LHR, I can't see how it would be outside DOT jurisdiction.

I didn't say the flight would be, just the ticket sales.

My thoughts are that the flights and ticket sales are one and the same in the eyes of our laws.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 18):
An alternative "fudge" would be to code-share with a US airline and only sell JFK-LHR via the code-share, so as to allow Israelis to travel without breaking the Kuwait Law.

Creative, and I generally like it. But I have no idea anything about Kuwaiti law, and if that would be satisfactory.
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1896
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 10):
Quoting EC99 (Reply 6):
not issue them to any non-Muslim Israeli

Is it for every Israeli or just non-Muslim Israelis?

All Israelis. Israel has a large Arab Muslim population, many of whom hold high positions in business and government despite the false "apartheid" image often put forward. The Arab League boycott applies to them as well.
 
ec99
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 20):
All Israelis. Israel has a large Arab Muslim population, many of whom hold high positions in business and government despite the false "apartheid" image often put forward. The Arab League boycott applies to them as well.

Thanks for the information although I think it could have been conveyed without an attempt to pour gasoline on the fire.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
this man is clearly fishing for trouble.
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 7):

It's very likely that he is just playing the system for a settlement.

That's how you get change if you are being denied a basic right that other people receive, just ask Rosa Parks.

If one of these airlines started denying Christians the ability to fly this would be an international incident and wars declared.

Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
So basically Israelis cant twist US around their fingers

Always this seething hatred of Jews, if El Al denied any Muslims on their flights you would be making a topic each day about how outrageous it is. In fact you were outraged merely that a Chinese airline was going to start flights to TLV and you got outraged that an airplane leased to Saudi Arabian had landed for work in TLV. More cowardly insults that show a horrible amount of bigotry.

[Edited 2015-10-28 12:13:24]
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 22):
Always this seething hatred of Jews, if El Al denied any Muslims on their flights you would be making a topic each day about how outrageous it is.

This hasn't got anything to do with Jews, its Israeli citizens the issue pertains to - Kuwait Airlines will happily carry an American who happens to be Jewish, but they won't fly an Israeli Christian.
 
UAEflyer
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:29 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:05 pm

I'm thinking what would happen if a Kuwaiti was kicked off LY flight. Let us assume he would love to visit Tel Aviv !
It is all about one side of the story.
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1896
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:07 pm

Better question when talking about KU dropping LHR JFK is, is the flight making money?
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 23):

This hasn't got anything to do with Jews, its Israeli citizens the issue pertains to - Kuwait Airlines will happily carry an American who happens to be Jewish, but they won't fly an Israeli Christian.

It has nothing to do with Jews? Maybe you should look who I was replying to. And this action of not accepting Israelis has everything to do with it being a Jewish state.
 
toobz
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:33 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:32 pm

question is...why would an Israeli want to fly KU? So many other options to fly on the route..i understand its discriminatory but it seems to be the way things operate in that part of the world.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4005
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting toobz (Reply 27):
question is...why would an Israeli want to fly KU? So many other options to fly on the route..i understand its discriminatory but it seems to be the way things operate in that part of the world.

Because Kayak or whatever says it's cheaper..
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13979
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:44 pm

I am somewhat confused about this, as I understood the person traveling was a lived and worked in the US, and was dual national (hence the reason the US would hear the complaint). I thought this was an american using an Israeli travel document, and had made the same complaint on a number of airlines. As I understood the issue is the travel document being used, not where they come from.

I would love to read the actual rulings.

He still sounds like a twat, hope he gets banned for life from every airline.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
blue100
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:58 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting toobz (Reply 27):

question is...why would an Israeli want to fly KU? So many other options to fly on the route..i understand its discriminatory but it seems to be the way things operate in that part of the world.

To flip the question around, why should an Israeli be forced to limit their airline options on a route between two countries that recognize their citizenship? I'm fairly sure if an Israeli decided to fly JFK-MXP on EK, the passenger wouldn't be have a problem boarding with an Israeli passport. That's a route that a passenger can choose DL, AZ, AA, UA at EWR or connections via European hubs. Still, maybe the EK flight or KU flight has the best timing, best service or best price? There are many factors that go into people selecting flights.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2300
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:10 pm

I wonder what some of the posters supporting this man's and DOT's position think about El Al security profiling against darker skinned and Arab-looking persons. All in the name of "anti-discrimination" right?
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
Shields
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 31):

I wonder what some of the posters supporting this man's and DOT's position think about El Al security profiling against darker skinned and Arab-looking persons. All in the name of "anti-discrimination" right?

Pellegrine, KU is denying service to *all* passengers flying on Israeli passports, regardless of the passenger's security profile. This is categorically different from the use of heightened security measures to evaluate whether a passenger poses an untenable threat. Notably, El Al does not deny service outright, simply based on one's nationality.

It seems as though every week, there is a new thread that devolves into anti-Israel bromide. There is a dark side to this forum, and it takes away one's enjoyment of civil aviation and the majesty of flight.
 
santi319
Posts: 828
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:32 pm

Because Israel is the ultimate owner of the world...
 
User avatar
ua900
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
As the article says, this has huge knock on effects and could lead to some diplomatic spats in the coming months.

I understand the DOT ruling is about KU flights from LHR-JFK, but could the EU take a similar stance on KU flights between say FRA-GVA or CDG-FCO?

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
This hasn't got anything to do with Jews, its Israeli citizens the issue pertains to - Kuwait Airlines will happily carry an American who happens to be Jewish, but they won't fly an Israeli Christian.

   That was KU's defense previously as well. Looks like DOT disagreed though  
Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 22):
That's how you get change if you are being denied a basic right that other people receive, just ask Rosa Parks.

Flying is not a *right* let alone a *basic right* - but why force a carrier to take you along, especially if you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well? Just because someone is $100 cheaper or because you always wanted to fly an Arab carrier?

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 26):
And this action of not accepting Israelis has everything to do with it being a Jewish state.

Right, just like some people don't want to cater at same sex weddings. I get what you're saying, but it's equally true that customers shouldn't be hell-bent on shopping at businesses that evidently don't want their business. On my last DXB-IAD flight on UA, my Kosher meal was "bussed in" from BKK. At DXB they sell both Muslim and Christian gold items, but no Star of David anywhere in sight. Speaks volumes about how they feel, doesn't it?

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 24):
I'm thinking what would happen if a Kuwaiti was kicked off LY flight. Let us assume he would love to visit Tel Aviv !
It is all about one side of the story.

Yeah, so there's a lot of tension between both sides. Maybe the few people in that situation should fly UA (if it's from the U.S.) or someone like TK, LH, or LX...

[Edited 2015-10-28 15:44:00]
2018: AMS | ARN | CDG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUM | HAM | HKG | HNL | IAH | LAX | MIA | MUC | ORD | RSW | SAL | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
Shields
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
Flying is not a *right* let alone a *basic right* - but why force a carrier to take you along, especially if you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well?

I have a problem with a carrier using publicly funded infrastructure (ATC, runways, etc.) that categorically denies service to some individuals based on the passport that they hold. Your comparison to religious bakers is not analogous: airline travel in the United States is a *public* event, not simply a commercial exchange between two private parties.
 
aa87
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 31):
I wonder what some of the posters supporting this man's and DOT's position think about El Al security profiling against darker skinned and Arab-looking persons. All in the name of "anti-discrimination" right?

Have you flown LY yourself ? Do you know anything about how their "profiling" works ? Yes, to be fair Arab pax are subject to heightened scrutiny, but so are a lot of others who fit a profile - not race or skin color or religion, but a host of other factors that are more determinative. You may not be aware but in 86 LY security caught an unsuspecting "mule" with a semtex bomb hidden in her carry on, placed by her "boyfriend" working for Syrian intelligence. She was Irish/UK citizen, but she was suspect not bc of her hair or skin color or religion or nationality, but bc of her answers to basic questions (including why her boyfriend wasn't traveling with her, and did he give her anything to carry).

I have seen Asians and Arabs grilled for half an hour at LY but then they board. Supposedly even the Shoebomber once flew LY. And if it makes you feel any better, I'm white/American and obviously Jewish, and I once got the third degree for 20 min leaving Israel, I guess bc I fit some profile that to this day I can't figure out (or the security agent just hated lawyers - saga began when I answered that question).

Point is, everyone knows why LY and TLV security do what they do. They're not always polite or respectful about it, but their profiling is vastly more sophisticated and effective than simply hassling "darker skinned and Arab looking persons".
 
N1120A
Posts: 26496
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:40 am

I'm no fan of the behavior of the Israeli government, but this is ridiculous. Discrimination based on national origin has been illegal in the United States since the ratification of the 14th Amendment (and, arguably, before).

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 3):

I believe this is more about JFK-LHR under 5th freedom and from a US point of sale. So that is probably where the DOJ can come in and say.

The DOT regulates any and all flights in and out of the US.

Quoting Polot (Reply 5):
Interestingly enough the same man (Eldad Gatt) filed a complaint against QR for a similar reason back in August.

While I agree that ff you are flying to the US you should be force to accommodate Israeli passengers on 5th freedom tags, this man is clearly fishing for trouble.

So what if he did? He has a point.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 7):
It's very likely that he is just playing the system for a settlement.

You don't seem to understand how this system works very well then.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 15):

Or maybe they will simply stop selling tickets for JFK-LHR in the USA, and make everyone purchase their tickets outside of the US DoT jurisdiction.

They DOT has jurisdiction over the flight anyway. The sales of tickets, wherever they take place, falls into that.

Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
So basically Israelis cant twist US around their fingers, becaus ethis guys didnt take any action from thr European side, yes he was flying JFK-LHR but what was his return trip on, considering he tried same with Qatar Airways.

Oh come on. This is outright discriminatory. If Kuwait banned Iranian passport holders from flying KU, the exact same thing would have happened. Same if they banned British passport holders, or any other passport holder.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 25):
Better question when talking about KU dropping LHR JFK is, is the flight making money?

Does KU make money on anything? They don't have a great rep.

Quoting toobz (Reply 27):
question is...why would an Israeli want to fly KU?

1) AvGeek
2) Better deal to London
3) To fix an illegal policy

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):
He still sounds like a twat, hope he gets banned for life from every airline.

Why? You hope for more discrimination?

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):
and was dual national (hence the reason the US would hear the complaint).

Wrong. The US will hear any complaint that falls in its jurisdiction. Any flight that flies in or out of the US falls under US jurisdiction. Citizenship is completely irrelevant.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1896
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well?

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. You can't assume that everyone on board will be a bigot or that even if they are would be physically or verbally abusive towards the passenger. And many will not be able to tell that the passenger is Jewish and/or Israeli (of course it depends on how the passenger is dressed).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
2) Better deal to London

KU is almost always the cheapest option JFK LHR though on JFK LON overall DY is generally the cheapest. Outside avgeeks and high-yield fliers most people only care about price. I'm sure this flight is bleeding money with KU's garbage product unlike on, say, JFK MXP where EK blows the alternatives out of the water with its amazing product.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Why doesnt KU just fly nonstop KWI-JFK?

They do, 3 flights a week. Also 3 via LHR. I doubt the market is big enough for 6 weekly nonstops.
 
uberflieger
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:55 am

Is United discontinuing KWI? Don't seem to be able to find the thread anymore?   
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2300
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting Shields (Reply 32):
Pellegrine, KU is denying service to *all* passengers flying on Israeli passports, regardless of the passenger's security profile. This is categorically different from the use of heightened security measures to evaluate whether a passenger poses an untenable threat. Notably, El Al does not deny service outright, simply based on one's nationality.

It seems as though every week, there is a new thread that devolves into anti-Israel bromide. There is a dark side to this forum, and it takes away one's enjoyment of civil aviation and the majesty of flight.

I don't agree with discrimination on any level. My point elicited exactly what you've said. The difference between denying someone service based on their passport and discriminatory extra security measures based on someone's heritage is nil.

I prefer a factual discussion, so the "oh, everyone hates Israel" sentiment does not fly with me. Arab countries enacted some of these policies in retaliation to overall Israeli policy and history. Diplomacy.

Holders of Israeli passports, and even people with Israeli stamps in their passport, already know that they cannot travel to certain Arab countries. So why would you even want to contribute to the profitability of an entity based in such country if you are one of this group?

The rhetorical contrast of your argument is this: Israelis discriminate against Arabs in their own country, occupied territories, and traveling on their airlines. Yet, Israelis should not be subject to the same discrimination.

Frankly - like I said diplomacy - if I were the autocrat of KU, I'd allow them on board...just make it uncomfortable like LY does.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 40):
Is United discontinuing KWI? Don't seem to be able to find the thread anymore?

According to these items, UA is dropping the IAD-KWI-BAH route in mid-January.
http://airlineroute.net/2015/10/21/ua-kwibah-jan16/
http://news.kuwaittimes.net/website/...ted-airlines-drops-kuwait-flights/
 
crownvic
Posts: 2465
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 22):
Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
So basically Israelis cant twist US around their fingers

Always this seething hatred of Jews, if El Al denied any Muslims on their flights you would be making a topic each day about how outrageous it is. In fact you were outraged merely that a Chinese airline was going to start flights to TLV and you got outraged that an airplane leased to Saudi Arabian had landed for work in TLV. More cowardly insults that show a horrible amount of bigotry.

[Edited 2015-10-28 12:13:24]

Look at where the poster is from. Would you expect anything less?
 
User avatar
DolphinAir747
Posts: 1896
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:30 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 43):

Look at where the poster is from. Would you expect anything less?

That's an unfairly bigoted statement for someone accusing others of bigotry. You can't assume that everyone from Pakistan is anti-Israel or a bigot in general. Obviously this one poster has made his views well known here but you can't generalize. See Salah Choudhury who was born in Pakistan and has been a strong Zionist and anti-Islamist despite being a devout Muslim (and was arrested by the Bangladeshi government due to his travels to Tel Aviv).

[Edited 2015-10-28 21:34:46]
 
Shields
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
The difference between denying someone service based on their passport and discriminatory extra security measures based on someone's heritage is nil.

Respectfully, the difference between categorically denying service based on nationality and screening some travelers more intensively than others to ascertain risk is not nil.

KU won't serve passengers traveling on Israeli passports. Period. The airline is entirely off-limits to Israeli passport holders. This is a prohibition that is rooted not in "diplomacy" but rather in animus toward Israelis.

El Al does not deny service to passengers simply on account of their nationality. Indeed, even Richard Reid--the shoebomber--flew El Al in 2001 on a 'dry-run.' El Al's heightened security measures--whether they are targeted toward single men traveling on one-way tickets, passengers flying long-haul with no checked luggage, or, God forbid, someone who just returned from a month-long vacation in Kandahar--are rooted in a desire to protect human life, not spite.

The difference is not nil, and it is reassuring to see the United States take a stand against this scourge.
 
qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:46 am

Zeke, I can only agree with all what you said, again, always well balanced statements...
 
robsaw
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:14 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:59 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
Flying is not a *right* let alone a *basic right* - but why force a carrier to take you along, especially if you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well? Just because someone is $100 cheaper or because you always wanted to fly an Arab carrier?

I'd suggest you research US civil rights laws a bit. Access to a publicly available service or product is for the most part required to be available to anyone without discrimination.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13979
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:37 am

Quoting robsaw (Reply 47):
Access to a publicly available service or product is for the most part required to be available to anyone without discrimination.

The airline does not discriminate against Israelis (a person), it is the Israeli travel document (a book). An Israeli travelling on a US passport would (and have) been carried.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
bennett123
Posts: 8946
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:38 am

N1120A

I assume that your statement pre supposes that the person has a passport issued by a state recognised by the US.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos