aklrno
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
I'm no fan of the behavior of the Israeli government, but this is ridiculous. Discrimination based on national origin has been illegal in the United States since the ratification of the 14th Amendment (and, arguably, before).

The 14th amendment, as with most of the constitution, places limits on the government, not the citizens or their businesses.

But there was a federal civil rights act passed by Congress (in 1965 IIRC) that prohibits discrimination in any public accommodation (that means businesses) in interstate or federally regulated commerce based on race, religion or national origin. That is where the airline went wrong. It does not apply to foreign governments of course, so Kuwait may deny admission to whoever they want. The airline does not have to fly people to a place where they won't be admitted, but since Israeli passport holders may enter the UK, Kuwait's airline has no right to deny them, even if it is owned by the Kuwait government since it is the business that is the subject of the law.

Just because its a statute, not constitutional law, doesn't make it any less effective.
 
flyguy89
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
Quoting robsaw (Reply 47):
Access to a publicly available service or product is for the most part required to be available to anyone without discrimination.

The airline does not discriminate against Israelis (a person), it is the Israeli travel document (a book). An Israeli travelling on a US passport would (and have) been carried.

...and how exactly does a person, who doesn't happen to be a duel citizen of another country, travel internationally without their native country's passport? Your logic is ludicrous.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 50):

But there was a federal civil rights act passed by Congress (in 1965 IIRC) that prohibits discrimination in any public accommodation (that means businesses) in interstate or federally regulated commerce based on race, religion or national origin. That is where the airline went wrong. It does not apply to foreign governments of course, so Kuwait may deny admission to whoever they want. The airline does not have to fly people to a place where they won't be admitted, but since Israeli passport holders may enter the UK, Kuwait's airline has no right to deny them, even if it is owned by the Kuwait government since it is the business that is the subject of the law.

KU is wholly owned by the State of Kuwait last time I checked.

Quoting aa87 (Reply 36):

Point is, everyone knows why LY and TLV security do what they do. They're not always polite or respectful about it, but their profiling is vastly more sophisticated and effective than simply hassling "darker skinned and Arab looking persons".

It is the very definition of hassling, profiling, and discriminatory. I am not saying that for the safety of all of their passengers, they should not screen all persons to a further degree than other carriers.

Look at this radical orthodox Jew killing the gays in the parade recently. I'd screen them harsher too if I were an Arab carrier.
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N1120A
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 49):
I assume that your statement pre supposes that the person has a passport issued by a state recognised by the US.

What are you talking about?

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
The airline does not discriminate against Israelis (a person), it is the Israeli travel document (a book). An Israeli travelling on a US passport would (and have) been carried.

You are incorrect.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 50):
The 14th amendment, as with most of the constitution, places limits on the government, not the citizens or their businesses.

But there was a federal civil rights act passed by Congress (in 1965 IIRC) that prohibits discrimination in any public accommodation (that means businesses) in interstate or federally regulated commerce based on race, religion or national origin. That is where the airline went wrong. It does not apply to foreign governments of course, so Kuwait may deny admission to whoever they want. The airline does not have to fly people to a place where they won't be admitted, but since Israeli passport holders may enter the UK, Kuwait's airline has no right to deny them, even if it is owned by the Kuwait government since it is the business that is the subject of the law.

Just because its a statute, not constitutional law, doesn't make it any less effective.

Actually, the Civil Rights Act is an application of the 14th Amendment.
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seahawk
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:00 am

Is it not the case, that Kuwait firms are forbidden from doing business with Israel in any form. So imho it is just an economic sanction.
 
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zeke
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 53):
You are incorrect.

They do carry Israelis who have valid travel documents. There was another complaint on similar lines where a couple travelling together one on a US passport, and the other on an Israeli passport. Only one of them got to go.

Have look at the actual DOT letter, they have actually convoluted themselves mixing up the difference between the persons race/ethnicity and the travel document. The website from what I gather has no idea of a persons ethnicity when booking, only the travel document being used.

http://cms.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/fil...it-Airways-Letter-Sept-30-2015.pdf
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N1120A
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 55):
Have look at the actual DOT letter, they have actually convoluted themselves mixing up the difference between the persons race/ethnicity and the travel document. The website from what I gather has no idea of a persons ethnicity when booking, only the travel document being used.

Do you understand the term "national origin?" Discrimination based on national origin is banned in the United States. Gatt's national origin is Israel. Refusing him services because of that national origin is illegal.
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seahawk
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:09 am

But in Kuwait the nation of Israel is not recognized as such.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 57):

Israel also never recognise any of the Arabs states
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 58):

Quoting seahawk (Reply 57):

Israel also never recognise any of the Arabs states

They do.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:22 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
The airline does not discriminate against Israelis (a person),

False, they only don't discriminate against Israelis who also happen to have other citizenship.
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jfklganyc
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 57):
But in Kuwait the nation of Israel is not recognized as such.

Too bad. In the rest of the free world it is recognized as country. Personal opinions aside, if you look at a map, atlas or globe, there it is for all to see. You want to deny reality? Fine...but you have to do it amongst yourselves.

If you are going to land in the free world in 2015, you damn well better not discriminate against anyone because of race, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, religion, gender, etc or you will be slapped with 1) a lawsuit 2) ridiculous amounts of bad press and social media 3) government action because of 1 and 2.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:36 pm

The case is simple. KU can refuse Israeli passenger on flight to KWI because they will not get a visa anyways but it cannot do so on the JFK-LHR sector since Israel is recognized in both countries and the airline has 5th freedom rights between those points. By not accepting Israeli passengers on its JFK-LHR flights, it is in fact viewed as baseless discrimination and is not legal under US law.
 
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hilram
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting santi319 (Reply 33):
Because Israel is the ultimate owner of the world...

Because Anti-Semitism still is a global problem, which is underlined by what can be read between the lines in this thread.
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ec99
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:47 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
Flying is not a *right* let alone a *basic right* - but why force a carrier to take you along, especially if you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well?

In common law countries such as the United States, the right/privilege to air travel is basically controlled by the legal concept of common carriers. The basic premise being that a common carrier (stage coach operator, riverboat operator, airline etc..) has limited rights to deny passage to a paying customer who they have space to accommodate. If you read the DOT letter, you will notice most of the second page is about rules pertaining to common carriers. Further, the DOT letter’s most important legal citations notes how common carriers have special rules applied them. See top of page 2, https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Kuwait-Airways-Letter-Sept-30-2015.pdf.

The idea of the common carrier is confusing to most people who have not gone to law school in a common law jurisdiction since it is based on rules largely adopted in 15-18th century Great Britain. Nevertheless, this ruling is totally consistent with the idea of a common carrier even if the concept of a common carrier is somewhat outdated.

Finally, this ruling was based on national origin not religion. People can argue about what the DOT was really going for here but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 contains a separate provision for discrimination based on religion. The DOT instead clearly made this decision on the basis of national origin. They are distinct categories of the 1965 Civil Rights Act.
 
LGAviation
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 64):

Quoting ua900 (Reply 34):
Flying is not a *right* let alone a *basic right* - but why force a carrier to take you along, especially if you'll likely be surrounded by people who don't wish you well?

In common law countries such as the United States, the right/privilege to air travel is basically controlled by the legal concept of common carriers. The basic premise being that a common carrier (stage coach operator, riverboat operator, airline etc..) has limited rights to deny passage to a paying customer who they have space to accommodate. If you read the DOT letter, you will notice most of the second page is about rules pertaining to common carriers. Further, the DOT letter’s most important legal citations notes how common carriers have special rules applied them. See top of page 2, https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Kuwait-Airways-Letter-Sept-30-2015.pdf.

The idea of the common carrier is confusing to most people who have not gone to law school in a common law jurisdiction since it is based on rules largely adopted in 15-18th century Great Britain. Nevertheless, this ruling is totally consistent with the idea of a common carrier even if the concept of a common carrier is somewhat outdated.

Finally, this ruling was based on national origin not religion. People can argue about what the DOT was really going for here but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 contains a separate provision for discrimination based on religion. The DOT instead clearly made this decision on the basis of national origin. They are distinct categories of the 1965 Civil Rights Act.

Entirely agree. Also, besides the concept of a common carrier, it is a simple matter of contract law that whenever two parties enter into a contract and one side performs their obligation, the party is undoubtedly entitled to the their partner's performance. It is not about Israel or Kuwait or anything it is as simple as this: The passenger paid for transportation between London, UK and New York, NY and the ticket might thus be subject to both UK and US jurisdiction and if these jurisdictions do not recognize being Israeli as a reason to not perform their obligation (carrying the passenger), then it is KU problem! And this whole talk about the US being unable to force them to break their home country's law is utter nonsnense!! Of course the US like any other country can do so! if they are unable to abide by Kuwaiti law while conducting operations abroad, then it is their problem and their problem only. You cannot reasonably expect to be able to abide by all countries' laws as the whole point of national sovereignty is that they might be inconsistent. So if KU wants to continue to operate LHR-JFK (a route outside of Kuwaiti jurisdiction for most purposes), they should start acting in a way consistent with Anglo-American jurisdiction.

To all 'flying is no right' people: Indeed, Kuwait has no basic right or anything to operate between LHR and JFK and they are nothing but a foreign carrier operating because these govt's let them to and these governments happen to recognize the passenger's right to fly if they paid for the ticket and comply with safety and visa regulations
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seahawk
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:57 pm

Best option for KU is to drop the flight between LHR and JFK, or stop using the 5th freedom on the route.
 
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zeke
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
Do you understand the term "national origin?" Discrimination based on national origin is banned in the United States.
Quoting apfpilot (Reply 60):
False, they only don't discriminate against Israelis who also happen to have other citizenship.

I understand what national origin means, that is why I went to pains to explain the difference between the ethnicity and the travel document. A passenger could be born in the US, Europe, UK, Australia etc and be issued with a Israeli passport. If they choose to use that travel document, they would be denied carriage. It is not their "national origin" being rejected, it is the travel document.

Likewise if a person born in Israel and has a valid travel document issued by another country, eg US, Europe, UK, Australia etc the booking engine has no idea their national origin.
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speedbored
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
They DOT has jurisdiction over the flight anyway.

True. But only partial jurisdiction.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The sales of tickets, wherever they take place, falls into that.

Wrong. Transactions occurring wholly outside of the USA do not fall under the jurisdiction of the USA. The USA could, of course, impose sanctions on the flight if they do not like what is going on outside of their jurisdiction, but that is not at all the same thing. Imposing sanctions would set a dangerous precedent for others to do the same thing where they don't like how things are done in the USA.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 53):
What are you talking about?

He's talking about the USA not recognising passports from some declared independent states in the world. Yes, the USA does it too.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 53):
You are incorrect.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
Refusing him services because of that national origin is illegal.

No, he's right. KA are not even asking the passenger to disclose their country of origin. They are simply refusing to sell tickets to anyone who does not enter valid passport details. And, as the state of Israel does not exist as far as Kuwait is concerned, Israeli passports are not acceptable.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
Personal opinions aside, if you look at a map, atlas or globe, there it is for all to see.

Not if you look at a map, atlas or globe produced in any of the many countries that do not recognise the State of Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
You want to deny reality? Fine...but you have to do it amongst yourselves.

You seem to be assuming that what is "reality" in your own country is also "reality" in other countries. If you travel outside of your own country often enough, you will soon discover that that is far from true.
 
LGAviation
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
You want to deny reality? Fine...but you have to do it amongst yourselves.

You seem to be assuming that what is "reality" in your own country is also "reality" in other countries. If you travel outside of your own country often enough, you will soon discover that that is far from true.

Being in said place pretty much feels like being in a sovereign country, though
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ec99
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 67):
It is not their "national origin" being rejected, it is the travel document.

Your argument is completely logical and I understand where you are coming from.

However, under American law, prohibiting someone from flying based on the issuer of their passport is discrimination based on national origin. You can argue this is incorrect, but at present it is the law in the United States. I can give you a long list of areas where I disagree with the Supreme Court or the DOT but what they say is the law.
 
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pvjin
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):

Most of the countries that haven't recognized Israel are either oppressive dictatorships, failed states or often both. Why should we here in the civilized world care about their opinion?
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apfpilot
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 67):
It is not their "national origin" being rejected, it is the travel document.

US Law doesn't make that fine of a distinction. Someone born in Israel, living in Israel and only having an Israeli passport is banned from buying tickets on KU due to their having an Israeli passport. A tax on yarmulkes is a tax on jews is a quote from a supreme court decision where an attempt was made to distinguish between discriminating against a person, and against an act that is inherent to the person of which US law doesn't consider a valid difference.
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peterinlisbon
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:39 pm

It's hardly a big deal anyway. I doubt many Israeli citizens would choose Kuwait Airways to fly between London and New York, and choose to do so using their Israeli passports (most have dual nationality anyway). There are so many other airlines to choose from with better frequency and prices. But now they have the right to do so, if they wish, and KU has to comply with this ruling if it wants to fly the route. Israelis still can't go to Kuwait.
 
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zeke
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 70):
However, under American law, prohibiting someone from flying based on the issuer of their passport is discrimination based on national origin. You can argue this is incorrect, but at present it is the law in the United States.

In that case every airline that operates to/from the US is not following the US law. Every airline will have rejected passengers based upon the travel documents not meeting the airline requirements, e.g. where it was issued, insufficient time to expiry, lack of visa.
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apfpilot
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
In that case every airline that operates to/from the US is not following the US law. Every airline will have rejected passengers based upon the travel documents not meeting the airline requirements, e.g. where it was issued, insufficient time to expiry, lack of visa.

Nope, they would deny service to anyone who doesn't meet those requirements no matter where they are from or what they are doing.
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D L X
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 50):
The 14th amendment, as with most of the constitution, places limits on the government, not the citizens or their businesses.

Actually...

The 14th Amendment is one of the ones that places limits on both the government and individuals via Section 5, which delegates to Congress broad authority to enforce equal protection. If you are in commerce (and an airline is), the Congress can regulate YOU as a private actor to enforce equal protection.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 53):
Actually, the Civil Rights Act is an application of the 14th Amendment.

   (And the commerce clause.)

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
They DOT has jurisdiction over the flight anyway.

True. But only partial jurisdiction.

Why do you keep saying this?

If you don't think they're under the jurisdiction of the USDOT, why do they adhere to our ticket sales law?
https://www.kuwaitairways.com/en/legal/Pages/customerservice.aspx
Note that they have to offer free 24-hour refunds to anyone travelling to or from the US. That includes people who bought their tickets in Kuwait.

It's not because they like us. It's because they are legally required to do so. (14 C.F.R s 259.5.)

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
Wrong. Transactions occurring wholly outside of the USA do not fall under the jurisdiction of the USA.

Are you familiar with the term "long-arm jurisdiction?" If someone outside the state or outside the country reaches into the state or country to conduct business, they are not transacting wholly outside the US. (And selling tickets to persons in America for a flight that touches America 100% falls into this category.)

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 73):
I doubt many Israeli citizens would choose Kuwait Airways to fly between London and New York, and choose to do so using their Israeli passports (most have dual nationality anyway)

Yeah, that's something interesting about this particular flyer. IIRC, he has a US passport, which would have allowed him to fly, but chose to use his Israeli passport to cause this situation to occur. If he really wanted to fly, he could have.
I think a better test of our laws would be an openly gay American to seek employment, say as a gate agent. Then what would KU do when our laws forbid discrimination on the base of sexual orientation?
 
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zeke
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 75):
Nope, they would deny service to anyone who doesn't meet those requirements no matter where they are from or what they are doing.

Airlines "discriminate" all the time based upon the travel document being used, and where the passenger is traveling to. The US "discriminates" based upon where the travel document is issued as well for entry into the US, e.g. travel documents from Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, Indonesia are treated differently. The industry has always used the term "valid travel document" to cover this.
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N1120A
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 63):
Because Anti-Semitism still is a global problem

The biggest problem with anti-Semitism is in Israel - against Palestinians. You know, the other Semites.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 66):
Best option for KU is to drop the flight between LHR and JFK, or stop using the 5th freedom on the route.

They aren't going to do it.

Quoting zeke (Reply 67):
I understand what national origin means, that is why I went to pains to explain the difference between the ethnicity and the travel document.

Ethnicity and National Origin aren't the same thing.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
True. But only partial jurisdiction.

No. Ful jurisdiction. Just like the CAA/JAA also has full jurisdiction over the flight.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
Wrong. Transactions occurring wholly outside of the USA do not fall under the jurisdiction of the USA. The USA could, of course, impose sanctions on the flight if they do not like what is going on outside of their jurisdiction, but that is not at all the same thing. Imposing sanctions would set a dangerous precedent for others to do the same thing where they don't like how things are done in the USA.

Wrong again. As D L X mentioned, the jurisdiction of the DOT doesn't stop at the borders of the US.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
He's talking about the USA not recognising passports from some declared independent states in the world. Yes, the USA does it too.

Which is irrelevant.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 68):
No, he's right. KA are not even asking the passenger to disclose their country of origin. They are simply refusing to sell tickets to anyone who does not enter valid passport details. And, as the state of Israel does not exist as far as Kuwait is concerned, Israeli passports are not acceptable.

Guess what - entering a passport is a disclosure of national origin.
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Mir
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 74):
In that case every airline that operates to/from the US is not following the US law. Every airline will have rejected passengers based upon the travel documents not meeting the airline requirements, e.g. where it was issued, insufficient time to expiry, lack of visa.

That's not airlines, that's governments doing it. The airlines are only rejecting the passengers because they know that they will not be granted entry on the other end. I would look with a very critical eye at any airline that refused to carry a passenger based on a travel document policy that was more restrictive than the policy of a country that was on their itinerary.

In this case, Kuwaiti is well within their rights to refuse to carry passengers on flights to Kuwait who could not obtain entry into Kuwait, which includes Israeli citizens. But they can't refuse to carry them on flights that don't touch Kuwait, such as JFK-LHR.

-Mir
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strfyr51
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:08 pm

I think this entire line is? "When In Rome..." You don't GET to bring your petty Prejudices here to the USA. We have Enough of our OWN!!
 
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hilram
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):

The biggest problem with anti-Semitism is in Israel - against Palestinians. You know, the other Semites.

Funny. How come synagoges all over Europe reqire armed guards nowadays? Typically just brushing this off as a non-existent problem.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 73):
It's hardly a big deal anyway. I doubt many Israeli citizens would choose Kuwait Airways to fly between London and New York, and choose to do so using their Israeli passports (most have dual nationality anyway).

This is a matter of principle, not how many will be affected.
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N1120A
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 81):
Typically just brushing this off as a non-existent problem.

No. Anti-Semitism against both Jews and Palestinians is still a very existent problem. The issue is that Israel has adopted a policy of apartheid against the other Semitic group, which is disgusting. Indeed, we are less than a week away from the anniversary of the heartbreaking assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, which destroyed the peace process.

Quoting hilram (Reply 81):
How come synagoges all over Europe reqire armed guards nowadays?

Partly for show and partly because disgusting bigots are using Israel's bad acts as an excuse to attack Jews for their religious beliefs.
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andrefranca
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:42 pm

Decided to post, cause right now I'm waiting for a flight in DOH and I arrived from LCA and on my flight there were 4 israelis, yes with israeli passport etc..., they told me on qatar and bahrain they can transit without visa, but not allowed into the country, so seems that it's only kuwait air and saudia enforcing these rules? what about the others?
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 77):
Airlines "discriminate" all the time based upon the travel document being used, and where the passenger is traveling to. The US "discriminates" based upon where the travel document is issued as well for entry into the US, e.g. travel documents from Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, Indonesia are treated differently. The industry has always used the term "valid travel document" to cover this.

Those aren't considered discrimination under the law. You can't discriminate against someone because of their national origin. If someone is from Israel and only has an Israeli passport and you decline to accept that passport you are discriminating against someone because of that national origin.
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ua900
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting robsaw (Reply 47):
I'd suggest you research US civil rights laws a bit. Access to a publicly available service or product is for the most part required to be available to anyone without discrimination.

Tell that to the pizzerias and wedding caterers. For the most part, businesses don't engage in interstate transactions with customers, most goods and services are provided within one state, and business owners do have some discretion as to whom they serve (e.g. no shoes, no shirt, no service) - but again, if a business doesn't want my money I'll gladly shop elsewhere. I'll also tell all my friends. No law suit required, it's easy here to vote with your wallet.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 50):
The 14th amendment, as with most of the constitution, places limits on the government, not the citizens or their businesses.

But there was a federal civil rights act passed by Congress (in 1965 IIRC) that prohibits discrimination in any public accommodation (that means businesses) in interstate or federally regulated commerce based on race, religion or national origin. That is where the airline went wrong. It does not apply to foreign governments of course, so Kuwait may deny admission to whoever they want.

Ok, that makes more sense. Not the constitution, but some added law.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
Quoting seahawk (Reply 57):But in Kuwait the nation of Israel is not recognized as such.Too bad. In the rest of the free world it is recognized as country. Personal opinions aside, if you look at a map, atlas or globe, there it is for all to see. You want to deny reality? Fine...but you have to do it amongst yourselves.

Exactly. Their loss. The existence of Israel is a fact. Israel will defend itself to the last person, it has a track record of kicking butt, and it has friends throughout the world.

Quoting hilram (Reply 81):
Funny. How come synagoges all over Europe reqire armed guards nowadays? Typically just brushing this off as a non-existent problem.

More integration efforts are needed. It's bad to carry a conflict between two groups into a third country.

Quoting zeke (Reply 77):
Airlines "discriminate" all the time based upon the travel document being used, and where the passenger is traveling to. The US "discriminates" based upon where the travel document is issued as well for entry into the US, e.g. travel documents from Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, Indonesia are treated differently. The industry has always used the term "valid travel document" to cover this.

As someone who has friends without a U.S. and without a EU passport, I can confirm that. Good luck trying to do LatAm - EU without straddling U.S. carriers. It's BOG or bust, costs extra not to route through MIA or JFK, quite a bit extra. Better yet, LatAm - Asia. I'm glad for every new service that bypasses this issue, but they're still rare compared to the First World connections available for the chosen few granted the right the transfer through the U.S.

Quoting D L X (Reply 76):
Yeah, that's something interesting about this particular flyer. IIRC, he has a US passport, which would have allowed him to fly, but chose to use his Israeli passport to cause this situation to occur. If he really wanted to fly, he could have.

There you go. It's like someone with dual citizenship in the U.S. using their U.S. passport to try to go to Cuba without having a license. Could have used their foreign passport and no one in CUN or YYZ would have raised an eyebrow. What's with the muckraking? It's sad enough that discrimination exists, why fan the flames?
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:57 pm

Would a US airline transport a person showing a passport from South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabkh or Transnistria?
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 85):
Tell that to the pizzerias and wedding caterers

Oh, the law is on their tails for sure.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 86):

Would a US airline transport a person showing a passport from South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabkh or Transnistria?

If they could gain entry upon landing, yes.

Quoting ua900 (Reply 85):
No law suit required, it's easy here to vote with your wallet.

Easy to you because you're in the ruling class. Not so easy for minorities. Consider the Black American population in 1964 when the law was written, and how it was impossible to gain access to the great majority of services at the time.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 85):
Ok, that makes more sense. Not the constitution, but some added law.

Well also the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution. The materials that those shops sell are almost always from out of state to some extent.
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speedbored
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):
No. Ful jurisdiction. Just like the CAA/JAA also has full jurisdiction over the flight.

You are contradicting yourself here. You can't possibly have full jurisdiction if it is shared with someone else.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):
Guess what - entering a passport is a disclosure of national origin.

No it is not. Plenty of people hold passports that are not issued by their country of origin. Many people even hold more than one passport - they can't possibly have originated in more than one nation.

Quoting D L X (Reply 76):
It's because they are legally required to do so.

Only because they currently sell tickets to people in the USA.

Quoting D L X (Reply 76):
And selling tickets to persons in America for a flight that touches America 100% falls into this category.

Maybe. But they would not be doing that if, as I suggested, they stopped selling tickets in the USA.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
No it is not. Plenty of people hold passports that are not issued by their country of origin. Many people even hold more than one passport - they can't possibly have originated in more than one nation.

Just because it isn't always that way doesn't make it non-discriminatory.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
Maybe. But they would not be doing that if, as I suggested, they stopped selling tickets in the USA.

Unless they still offered transportation between JFK-LHR
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Polot
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
Maybe. But they would not be doing that if, as I suggested, they stopped selling tickets in the USA.

Which, as mentioned, is a discriminatory practice. You can talk all you want about the DOT's authority (or lack there of) over ticket sales outside the US to foreign nationals on flights to the US, but the US-Kuwait air service agreement allows the US to intervene in cases of discriminatory prices or practices (see article 12, paragraph 1).

KU can't fly anywhere of the US carrying local passengers without selling to American customers. That goes against the entire point of air service agreements and commercial traffic rights.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 87):
Quoting seahawk (Reply 86):
Would a US airline transport a person showing a passport from South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabkh or Transnistria?
If they could gain entry upon landing, yes.

But they can't since the U.S. doesn't recognize their countries, so no transport for them.

Quoting D L X (Reply 87):
Easy to you because you're in the ruling class. Not so easy for minorities. Consider the Black American population in 1964 when the law was written, and how it was impossible to gain access to the great majority of services at the time.

Am I part of the ruling class? I feel flattered in a way but I'm not sure that I am. I understand and appreciate why civil rights legislation was passed, and yes, there was and there is a place for it. But there's still an awful lot of discrimination left. Adding to seahawk's comment, a person from El Salvador can't even fly TA (their own airline) to MIA or IAH and connect to LH to FRA or MUC (which is visa-free for them) without a U.S. visa first. Talk about bullying and discrimination.
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 86):
Would a US airline transport a person showing a passport from South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabkh or Transnistria?

That's not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison given that no US airline flies non-stop between any two airports located in regions that recognize any of those three regions as independent states. If they were offering non-stop flights between two countries that recognized those passports, they would risk facing the same issue the KU is facing here. The reality is that a US airline would not be in the position to decide whether or not to transport that person because the US government (or third party government if a fifth freedom sector) will have refused to issue a visa and denied the right to travel due to a lack of entry qualifications before the airline ever had the opportunity to decide.

That is the issue at hand - an airline from a country that does not recognize Israel is offering non-stop transportation between two countries that do. As a result, someone traveling JFK-LHR does not need a visa or entry permission from the Kuwaiti government in order to utilize KU's service, and an Israeli passport holder is perfectly capable of receiving entry permission to both the USA and UK. So unlike your example, the governments of the countries at either end of the non-stop segment will not have denied boarding privileges in advance.

I don't know the right answer here, but let's at least try to make valid points in the debate instead of resorting to hyperbolic examples which don't apply.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
Only because they currently sell tickets to people in the USA.

The rule applies equally to the tickets sold IN KUWAIT to KUWAITIS returning JFK-LHR-KWI. You have to understand that.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
But they would not be doing that if, as I suggested, they stopped selling tickets in the USA.

False. A ton of those tickets JFK-LHR are not sold in the US, and yet the US law still applies.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
Quoting D L X (Reply 76):
And selling tickets to persons in America for a flight that touches America 100% falls into this category.

Maybe.

Dude. How many lawyers would it take to convince you? You've had at least 2 tell you you're wrong.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 44):

That's an unfairly bigoted statement for someone accusing others of bigotry. You can't assume that everyone from Pakistan is anti-Israel or a bigot in general. Obviously this one poster has made his views well known here but you can't generalize. See Salah Choudhury who was born in Pakistan and has been a strong Zionist and anti-Islamist despite being a devout Muslim (and was arrested by the Bangladeshi government due to his travels to Tel Aviv).


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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
You are contradicting yourself here. You can't possibly have full jurisdiction if it is shared with someone else.

No I'm not. Any airline that flies to the United States must comply with any and all US laws applicable to air transport. While jurisdiction may be concurrent, the DOT could care less what the government of Kuwait says. The full extent of the DOT's jurisdiction is exercised.

But hey, what do I know? I just do this for a living.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 89):
No it is not. Plenty of people hold passports that are not issued by their country of origin. Many people even hold more than one passport - they can't possibly have originated in more than one nation.

Wrong. National Origin is an extremely broad category. It covers ethnicity, language, nationality and more. That is why the category "national origin" exists.

Quoting D L X (Reply 94):
Dude. How many lawyers would it take to convince you? You've had at least 2 tell you you're wrong.

I wonder if some people would tell their surgeon how to excise a tumor?
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:40 am

Sorry to be so pedantic, but to those who think that commercial discrimination is banned by the constitution, 14th amendment or otherwise, are wrong. Amendment 14 section 5 gives congress the right to enforce the other sections which are limits on government.

It is the commerce clause in article I that gives the congress power to ban discrimination in interstate and international commerce. Kuwait airlines can either obey that law or stop doing business in the US.

Any airline can deny boarding to a passenger that cannot show that they will be permitted entry into the destination country. That discrimination on the part of the destination country is not under control of the airline.

Even though the government of Kuwait owns the airline, the destination country is the UK in the referenced case and the passenger did have the required documentation for the UK. The feeling of the owner of the airline, even if is a sovereign nation, are irrelevant to the civil rights act. Kuwait loses this argument every time. End of story.
 
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 97):
Sorry to be so pedantic, but to those who think that commercial discrimination is banned by the constitution, 14th amendment or otherwise, are wrong. Amendment 14 section 5 gives congress the right to enforce the other sections which are limits on government.

It is the commerce clause in article I that gives the congress power to ban discrimination in interstate and international commerce.

Actually, it is both. But, what do D L X and I know? We're just lawyers, not "investors."
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RE: DOT Says Kuwait Cant Discriminate Against Israelis

Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 79):
In this case, Kuwaiti is well within their rights to refuse to carry passengers on flights to Kuwait who could not obtain entry into Kuwait, which includes Israeli citizens. But they can't refuse to carry them on flights that don't touch Kuwait, such as JFK-LHR.

The flight is not JFK-LHR-JFK, or vv, it is JFK-LHR-KWI, it is actually a JFK-KWI flight with a stop over in LHR. An Israeli passport holder, like most passport holders are not permitted to enter the UK without a visa unless they can show proof of residence and their onward itinerary.

A visa is required for a one way ticket JFK-LHR, or an additional itinerary. The airline is unaware of an onwards itinerary if purchasing a one way fare, and if they were rejected at the UK border for not meeting the entry requirements, they would be placed back on the flight to KWI where they also have no right to entry. This has happened to me on a number of stop over flights I have done in the past.
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