Millenium
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 73):
New main landing GeAr
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 76):
New main landing gear? why, the six wheeler from the -1000 should do it

According to the latest airport compatibility brochures this is how the A350-1000 main landing gear compares to the 777.

777-200/200ER/300
Tires
50x20 R22
777-200LR/300ER
Tires
52 X 21 R 22

Triple bogey Axle distance 1-2 and 2-3
1,45m and 1,48m
distance axle 1-3
2,93m
Wheel spacing (Centerline) Axel 1 to 3
1,4m

Distance between both main landing gears (Centerline)
10,97M

A350
50x20 R22

Triple bogey Axle distance 1-2 and 2-3
1,4m and 1,4m
distance axle 1-3
2,8m
Wheel spacing (Centerline) Axel 1 and 3
1,397m
Axel 2
1,474m

Distance between both main landing gears (Centerline)
10,73M

The 777-200LR/300ER has slightly wider tires but otherwise it seem a wash, but as both the 777 and the 747 (from 400 to 800) has changes from 50x20 R22 to 52 X 21 R 22 the A350 probably also could and then the A350 could probably go to 350 tonnes as far as ground pressure go. The structure of the gear etc. might of course make this impossible.

Regards.

[Edited 2015-11-11 13:11:47]
Regards
 
Millenium
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 78):
New landing gear -> rotation issues
Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 120):
But it would indicate there is only about half a metre of fuselage length to extend before you'd have tailstrike issues - again, it doesn't take account of fuse curvature - but at a high level it would say stretching has a rotation issue that needs solved.
Quoting dare100em (Reply 146):
- new MLG, more ground clearance

To speculate a little:

This is what one might find when going through a number of measurements like nose to MLG/tail/different doors, hight above ground etc. from the Airplane Characteristics brochures for these two aircrafts.

777-300ER
35,97m from MLG center to tail (Has got semi levered gear: -1,6m? = 34,97 )
19,34m from MLG to fuselage curvature? (Has got semi levered gear: -1,6m? = 17,74)
2,3m from ground to fuselage (underside).

A350-1000
35,14m from MLG center to tail (No semi levered gear as far as I know)
17,72m from MLG to fuselage curvature?
2,5m from ground to fuselage (underside).

Seems the 777 has a little stubbier tail and sits slightly lower to the ground but compensates with the semi levered gear. The 777X is supposed to retain the wing box and landing gear so it should (???) remain at the same hight from the ground despite being a bit longer. Emirates seems perfectly happy with this so this seems its no problem at all. So there does seem to be some room for stretching the A350-1000 without doing anything to the landing gear especially with a bigger wing and new engines.  

Regards
Regards
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 194):
Nice, some old school a.net smack talking, reminds me of days gone past! 

Not too many chose to rally against the 77W, wonder why  
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 195):
That should than hit Boeing harder than Airbus, as IMO the 777-9 will amount to a bigger investment than the A350-1100, if it should come.

Solid point for sure but it would be true if Boeing didn't already commit to the 77X and have the orders in hand. The first mover advantage with the orders changes that dynamic. Now its up to Airbus if they want to spoil the party and split the market or not. Its certainly their prerogative. And I think they can. But that is a low ROI move in my opinion as I think they will get a lot of A351 orders without stretching it.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 195):
New engines would rather lead to development cost at the engine maker.

RR isn't looking like they are going to take something like that on. Wonder who will.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 195):
It is often strange how numbers are looked at. The A350-1000 has 175 orders, the 777-9 has 253 and the 777-8 is a different model.

The 77X EIS 3 years after the A351 meaning that customers are choosing to wait rather than operate the A351. 779 has been on offer for much less time.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 195):
I do not see Airbus having do do anything regarding the bigger twins until the A350-900 has a reduced backlog.

Agreed.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 196):
If Airbus had to worry about the A350-1100 taking sales from the A350-1000, does than mean the 779 sales are safe?

No I think it will take sales from both but that will reduce the ROI in the near term. If those customers are already going to order the A351 then they won't make more money by spending billions and selling them an A350-1100 instead. Certainly some sales would come as a result of the 779 but Boeing is already committed so it doesn't change their direction it just might change their ROI which is already pretty well assured at meeting standards at this point regardless of what Airbus does.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
Normally you would introduce a new family member when the smallest model becomes less popular. So when the market shifts to larger models and the A350-900 becomes less popular, it is time to introduce an A350-1100.

Agreed.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
That all depends on what kind of aircraft the A35Z would be. If they do the 789/78X combo (one model for range, another one for capacity), the answer to your question would be 'no'.

If you are looking for a medium range (78X-esque) ~350-seat aircraft aren't you already ordering an A351?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
Hold on a minute, Boeing so far has only talked about maximum production rates. They need a lot more orders to reach this level. EK orders are spread out between 2020 and 2030.

Agreed, certainly their production rates and timing commitments assume a certain production rate. I can't imagine is expecting a production rate less than the current one as certainly the market will grow. Agreed they will need more orders but I think those will come as we get closer. Either that or they will all go to the A350 and we will all know.

Quoting Millenium (Reply 201):
The 777X is supposed to retain the wing box and landing gear

There is a new landing gear manufacturer so I am not sure the landing gear will be the same.

tortugamon
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:01 pm

"Airline sources said Airbus is exploring more seriously than before a larger version of its A350-1000 widebody jet with a capacity of up to 450 seats to counter the latest Boeing 777, probably powered by the next generation of "UltraFan" engines from Rolls-Royce."

This suggests a timeline of "end-2025"!!

http://bloga350.blogspot.fr/2015/11/...s-said-to-mull-a350-1100-with.html
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:09 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 203):
"Airline sources said Airbus is exploring more seriously than before a larger version of its A350-1000 widebody jet with a capacity of up to 450 seats to counter the latest Boeing 777, probably powered by the next generation of "UltraFan" engines from Rolls-Royce."

This suggests a timeline of "end-2025"!!

http://bloga350.blogspot.fr/2015/11/....html

If that turns out to be true it gives more to the "not call it 350-1100" statement of F.B. This than will be a clean sheet and probably not even have the same fuse [to the A350].
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:23 pm

If that turns out to be true it gives more to the "not call it 350-1100" statement of F.B. This than will be a clean sheet and probably not even have the same fuse [to the A350].

Airbus are probably discussing a range of options with airlines, of which this 2025 Ultrafan version is only one.
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:29 pm

I am not quite sure why Airbus are talking about a 1100 at all - at the moment.The 773er replacement market is still 5 years away.The 1000 is 2 years away and even then there is the huge 900 backlog to get through - particularly at the present 'leisurely' production rate!
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:34 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 203):
probably powered by the next generation of "UltraFan" engines from Rolls-Royce."

That doesn't bode well for an A380neo any time soon.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 203):
This suggests a timeline of "end-2025"!!

Given the current happenings at RR:

Rolls Royce Faces Profitability Issues... (by mayohoo Nov 12 2015 in Civil Aviation)

I can imagine the CEO isn't going to be going to the BoD asking for a big new project for at least a couple more years.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Airbus and Boeing are constantly floating different designs to the airlines and are asking for the future requirements of the airlines.

Those ideas range from simple changes to existing designs to really wild concepts. Few do see the light of day though.
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 204):
If that turns out to be true it gives more to the "not call it 350-1100" statement of F.B. This than will be a clean sheet and probably not even have the same fuse [to the A350].

Hmmmmmmm.
That would be a bit odd, to be honest. A clean-sheet design in that size category would have to be developed into a family and thus encroach quite heavily on A380 territory. Or on A350-1000 territory. Neither sounds like something Airbus would be keen to do.
Then again - strapping UltraFans under it would basically make it an A350NEO. Which they could of course decide to do at that point as well, with the A350-1100 as the lead model, followed by -900 and -1000. That would mean a pretty short sales lifespan for the TXWB-powered A350s, though.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 207):
That doesn't bode well for an A380neo any time soon.

Agreed, if there is not an economic case for an A380neo, the decision will be deferred until there this.

The price of oil is a big big factor in the economic case. The proven RR Trent 900 is good enough with oil at $50, which might be looking a tad optimistic just now. As ever, there will be winners and losers. A lot of luck is involved in past investment decisions seeing the light of day now, rather than poor judgement.
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:55 pm

G'day

Quoting parapente (Reply 206):
I am not quite sure why Airbus are talking about a 1100 at all - at the moment

You might as well ask the same question why Boeing was launching the 777X err 777-9 and 777-8 years back when the 777-9 is expected to enter service in 2022. I am fully aware that Boeing claims an earlier entry into service date than that, but we A-nutters know better than that I guess
  

If Airbus decides to go ahead with the 1100 version, which I take is a given, they need to move now to capture their share of the market. Likely entry into service of the 1100 stretched version in roughly the same time frame as their competitors X model will get Airbus a considerable advantage in having a more efficient and cheaper alternative. By that time A 350 production should have ramped up to a point where delivery slots will be available shorter term
  


Cheers

Peter
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 211):
If Airbus decides to go ahead with the 1100 version, which I take is a given, they need to move now to capture their share of the market. Likely entry into service of the 1100 stretched version in roughly the same time frame as their competitors X model will get Airbus a considerable advantage in having a more efficient and cheaper alternative. By that time A 350 production should have ramped up to a point where delivery slots will be available shorter term

Sound good sense, it just will need much higher pricing for the new engine than Airbus have grown accustomed to.
Then there may well be a good economic case for both RR and Airbus.

As has been said, best let your opponent keep digging his hole, whilst you sail onward and upwards.

[Edited 2015-11-13 06:07:36]
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 206):
I am not quite sure why Airbus are talking about a 1100 at all - at the moment.The 773er replacement market is still 5 years away.

Ideally you'd at least be able to start offering a product a few years before that cycle starts, no?

And the 744 replacement cycle is now in full swing, so a product later than the 779 might only find table scraps.

Yet the UltraFan is 10 years away.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:21 pm

The 77W delivery rate was rather low in the beginning, the real replacement market is still 10 years away.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 206):
I am not quite sure why Airbus are talking about a 1100 at all - at the moment.The 773er replacement market is still 5 years away.
Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 211):
You might as well ask the same question why Boeing was launching the 777X err 777-9 and 777-8 years back when the 777-9 is expected to enter service in 2022.

In Boeing's case, it is clear why they did so - to prevent the A350-1000 from securing the entire 350+ seat market currently anchored by the 777-300ER.

As the producer of the A350-1000, Airbus doesn't have that worry. *grin*



Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 211):
If Airbus decides to go ahead with the 1100 version, which I take is a given, they need to move now to capture their share of the market.

But how big is the market for an A350-1100 going to be, especially compared to the market for the A350-1000? (see below)



Quoting Revelation (Reply 213):
And the 744 replacement cycle is now in full swing, so a product later than the 779 might only find table scraps.

The 747 replacement market has been in play since the early 2000s and the majority of it has gone to the 777-300ER, of which the A350-1000 is an exemplar. Boeing went bigger with the 777-9 because a 777-300ERneo would not have been sufficiently competitive against the A350-1000.

IMO, Airbus will do very well with just the A350-1000 in their quiver for the 350+ seat market.

And as zeke keeps reminding us, Airbus and Boeing do not launch planes in direct competition with each other, but to cover market zones. The A350-1000 is Airbus' response to this market, as is the 777-9 for Boeing. So Airbus should not need a larger A350.

[Edited 2015-11-13 06:35:21]
 
dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 207):
Given the current happenings at RR:

Rolls Royce Faces Profitability Issues... (by mayohoo Nov 12 2015 in Civil Aviation)

I can imagine the CEO isn't going to be going to the BoD asking for a big new project for at least a couple more years.

As stated in the A380neo-Threat their problems result from the maritime division and - to a lesser extend - weaker profits in the civil aero engine devision for business jets. So still going strong (with lesser profits) is the civil aero business for large jets (787, A350, A330, A380). Furthermore it's not that they are burning cash or running out of money soon. They need to restructure the maritime business, yes. But the field they will invest ist exactly the turbofans for AB.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 209):
Hmmmmmmm.
That would be a bit odd, to be honest. A clean-sheet design in that size category would have to be developed into a family and thus encroach quite heavily on A380 territory. Or on A350-1000 territory. Neither sounds like something Airbus would be keen to do.
Then again - strapping UltraFans under it would basically make it an A350NEO. Which they could of course decide to do at that point as well, with the A350-1100 as the lead model, followed by -900 and -1000. That would mean a pretty short sales lifespan for the TXWB-powered A350s, though.

I think that is exactly one of the options Airbus is considering ATM. With many projects fare advanced (regarding engineering) there has to be a decision where to go next. For Boeing it's 90% the MOM. Airbus was doing "studies" on the A380neo for quite some time now. It seems they have trouble closing the "business case". What we here now is a large makeover including a significant stretch or nearly nothing at all (maybe just the T7000 or even only a PvP on the "A380-800neo").

I can imagine that a large TWIN - whether based on the A350 fuse or not - is one option they are seriously considering now which could

A) Be an "exit option" for the A380 which doesen't sell well anyway WITHOUT the risk the ME3 and others immediately ordering a further 300 77X from 2020 onwards. Because IF the A380 vanishes the 777-9 will immediately be the plane for a lote of Airlines on the upper end.
B) Be executet TOGETHER with a significant revision of the A380neo with an EIS 2022-2023 (reality: 2025) which J.L. seems to flirt with (real stretch, new wing, smaller tail ...)

In both cases, whether the A380-900neo is done or not it's not a problem for a TWIN "slightly on top" of the 77X anyway because the A380-900neo will be again MUCH bigger than anything else or it doesn't exist at all. The A380-800 - even with a new engine - is IMO dead by 2025 anyway.

The problem with B) is OFC that its a 20b € job and why Airbus would probably kill the 77X with this move they could be in "tight squezze" in the category above the A321 well up to the A350-900 through the Boeing MOM + 787-family without having enough ressources left for their own MOM (IMO airbus has as much as a problem as Boeing in the MOM size, maybe a little larger because the A330neo is nothing more than a 10 year solution at best).

[Edited 2015-11-13 07:02:06]

[Edited 2015-11-13 07:48:47]
 
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anfromme
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 216):
Airbus was doing "studies" on the A380neo for quite some time now. It seems they have trouble closing the "business case"

I can see why - it's a couple of years too early for an A380. They wouldn't want to do a NEO with an engine that's going to be (almost) outdated by the time it enters service.

Quoting dare100em (Reply 216):
In both cases, whether the A380-900neo is done or not it's not a problem for a TWIN "slightly on top" of the 77X anyway because the A380-900neo will be again MUCH bigger than anything else or it doesn't exist at all. The A380-800 - even with a new engine - is IMO dead by 2025 anyway.

That does make some sense, actually  

Although - regarding the clean-sheet answer to the 779, it also has to be said that Airbus have been looking at whether that market is big enough even for a "simple" (compared to a clean sheet design) solution like an A350-1100. To suddenly not only decide that it is big enough for that but big enough for a completely new family of airplanes would be a bit - uhm - unexpected, to be honest.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
Right along with that point, wouldn't the A351 be screwed if Airbus launches an 350-1100?

That all depends on what kind of aircraft the A35Z would be. If they do the 789/78X combo (one model for range, another one for capacity), the answer to your question would be 'no'.

I do wish that Airbus (or someone) would stamp their authority on some naming convention here. At present, it's all over the place, and I for one get quite confused by all these different nomenclatures

A351, A350K, A350-1100, A35Z - WTF!
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 215):
And as zeke keeps reminding us, Airbus and Boeing do not launch planes in direct competition with each other, but to cover market zones. The A350-1000 is Airbus' response to this market, as is the 777-9 for Boeing. So Airbus should not need a larger A350.

Yet they still have the A380, maybe that is not what I said after all.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 218):
quite

Seen it being called the A350XLB, extra long body as well.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 211):
the 777-9 is expected to enter service in 2022. I am fully aware that Boeing claims an earlier entry into service date than that, but we A-nutters know better than that I guess  

Internally Boeing is planning on 2H 2019 for EIS. 2013-2020 is 7 years from launch to EIS. The aggressive 787 timeline it is not.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 211):
By that time A 350 production should have ramped up to a point where delivery slots will be available shorter term

As long as don't sell any more A350s. I don't think that will happen.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 215):
Boeing went bigger with the 777-9 because a 777-300ERneo would not have been sufficiently competitive against the A350-1000.

I think they did whatever EK wanted to be honest. A small bump in capacity after more than a decade operating the 77W makes sense to me.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 217):
To suddenly not only decide that it is big enough for that but big enough for a completely new family of airplanes would be a bit - uhm - unexpected, to be honest.

Exactly. I only see this as a derivative. A clean sheet program would only come if they were closing the A380 line down and I think that is unlikely. Why start clean sheet when you have a perfectly good program to base it on and that just EIS.

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dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 220):
Quoting anfromme (Reply 217):To suddenly not only decide that it is big enough for that but big enough for a completely new family of airplanes would be a bit - uhm - unexpected, to be honest.
Exactly. I only see this as a derivative. A clean sheet program would only come if they were closing the A380 line down and I think that is unlikely. Why start clean sheet when you have a perfectly good program to base it on and that just EIS.

I would have agreed until a week ago. But actually F.B. said several interesting things about a A350-1100: 1) "Slightly above 777-9 [in capacity] with 40 seats more" 2) Range and payload as 777-9 3) Won't be called A350-1100.

This means at least new wing (wingtips), plus new engines, probably plus new MLG, plus 80m plus (?) fuse based on A350.

So in the best case its a project in the scale of the 777X. And at the end the tube will be very long with a high fitness ratio. And without any change of a further stretch.

Furthermore the Boeing design guy stayed something like "How can they compete [with the 77X family] with their clean sheet?"

All this doesn't sound like they consider a "simple stretch".
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 221):
I would have agreed until a week ago. But actually F.B. said several interesting things about a A350-1100: 1) "Slightly above 777-9 [in capacity] with 40 seats more" 2) Range and payload as 777-9 3) Won't be called A350-1100.

I think some of those quotes may have been JL and I definitely didn't see 40 more seats than the 779, I saw that 40+ more seats than the A351. All of the 450 seat quotes I've seen have said 'up to' before it and I would think it would be 440 anyway as then they would save on not having to add another door. I think it was JL said it won't be called the 1100. The reason I differentiate is that I take what FB has to say a lot more strongly than I do JL.

Quoting dare100em (Reply 221):
All this doesn't sound like they consider a "simple stretch".

There are things they can do that is more than a simple stretch but not as extreme as a clean sheet. Look at the A345/A346 program as an example. Same with the 77W vs 77E/773 as another example. I think that would be the way to go. Still cheaper than a 77X program.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
Hold on a minute, Boeing so far has only talked about maximum production rates. They need a lot more orders to reach this level. EK orders are spread out between 2020 and 2030.

This is still just talk about production rates and even this is just about the facility being made capable and with approvals but a new article today says they are preparing for production rates of "about 125 777Xs a year if demand is that high. That would be a 25 percent increase over the production rate for its 777 classic. The push past 100 airplanes a year is “tentatively scheduled to begin in 2021,”

http://www.theheraldbusinessjournal....-faster-construction-rate-for-777X

I think that rate is unlikely.

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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting Millenium (Reply 201):
The 777X is supposed to retain the wing box

No, the wing box is new as the 777X wing is significantly larger than the 777-300ER wing. The larger wing requires a new wing box.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 225):
Quoting Millenium (Reply 201):
The 777X is supposed to retain the wing box

No, the wing box is new as the 777X wing is significantly larger than the 777-300ER wing. The larger wing requires a new wing box.

The plans kept changing from an entirely new composite wingbox and wing to half composite and half aluminum to composite center box. I'm not sure what they finally settled on.
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 223):
Quoting Millenium (Reply 201):
The 777X is supposed to retain the wing box

No, the wing box is new as the 777X wing is significantly larger than the 777-300ER wing. The larger wing requires a new wing box.

A new wing does not by itself indicate a new wing box, but an increased MTOW or MZFW would.
 
dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:26 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 223):
No, the wing box is new as the 777X wing is significantly larger than the 777-300ER wing. The larger wing requires a new wing box.

What I get is that the wingbox stays Aluminium (77W with some reinforcement) now.
 
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:08 am

I think it would be ridiculous for Airbus to launch such aircraft. There are not many very large routes out there and even if it's not selling that well the A380 already occupies many of them and more in the future with both the A380 & 777-9X on order. There is just no room for a third aircraft type in that segment between the very big markets.

On a market like UK from Asia, whether you operate a very large aircraft to London, or a half the size to the 2nd market which is Manchester. You don't have something between and it's like that on most of the markets in the world.

[Edited 2015-11-14 02:12:35]
Never trust the obvious
 
Egerton
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:53 am

[quote=Aither,reply=227]

Aither, I agree. To position a new Airbus aeroplane just above the 777-9 makes no sense.

A 'heavy weight A350-1100', with bigger gross weight, would permit the 80m stretch and same range as the -1000. This would need a little more power from the existing fan size, probably not completely out of the question given a few years of RR R&D. Such a 'plane would be positioned above the current 777 and just below the 777-9 and makes good sense.
 
Amiga500
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:55 am

Quoting Egerton (Reply 187):

I feel sure that you will be able to quote many potential modes of failure like this fan blade off case, and demonstrate to your own satisfaction that these will make the RR UltraFan vp fan blades concept an impossible objective.

When you read through what I've been saying - and realise its about relying on the vp function to offset engine out scenarios and whether that failure philosophy will be allowed - then you can get back to me and tell me whether I'm saying ultrafan will or won't happen :rolleyes:
 
Egerton
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 229):

May I refer to my Reply 192 ?
 
WIederling
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
They need at least another 300 orders to secure a high production rate of 7-8

Boeing already explained how that is going to work:

Productionequivalence wise 777X frames will count for 3..5 classic 777 frames.
So even if the 777 classic rate contracts to 3..4 frames a month the
the "expanded" counting of those 777X frames will keep 777 overall production
numbers in the high single digit domain. voila ..  

What problems remain if you have a sophist copout handy for everything?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Egerton
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 221):
I would have agreed until a week ago. But actually F.B. said several interesting things about a A350-1100: 1) "Slightly above 777-9 [in capacity] with 40 seats more" 2) Range and payload as 777-9 3) Won't be called A350-1100.

Dear dare100em,
Please forgive me for asking, but what are your sources for each of the 3 numbered points you make? Thanks.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:19 am

I really don't think that Airbus is too worried about competing with the 779 since they will be very hard to beat against the 778.

The 778 is going to be the 779 as the 77L is to the 77W...a niche product. So when we look at the entire widebody twin product lines of both, (788 to 779 and A330neo to A350-1000), we see 2 very complete stables with just enough give and take to differentiate the products.

Airbus isn't going to spend a lot of time worrying about a larger twin for many years to come.

Let's let Airbus and their customers get some miles under the wings before we decide how inadequate the A350-1000 is or isn't, in relation to anything.
What the...?
 
dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting Egerton (Reply 232):
Dear dare100em,
Please forgive me for asking, but what are your sources for each of the 3 numbered points you make? Thanks.
http://bloga350.blogspot.de/2015/11/...ying-market-for-stretched.html?m=1
 
bobdino
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting dare100em

Quoting Egerton (Reply 232):


Quoting dare100em:
I would have agreed until a week ago. But actually F.B. said several interesting things about a A350-1100: 1) Slightly above 777-9 [in capacity
:
with 40 seats more" 2) Range and payload as 777-9 3) Won't be called A350-1100.

Please forgive me for asking, but what are your sources for each of the 3 numbered points you make? Thanks.
http://bloga350.blogspot.de/2015/11/...ket-for-stretched.html?m=1[/quote]

That blogA350 piece is a rewrite of this Reuters article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...13424X20151109#FU0sSAyiyQJhPpbc.97

In particular, point (1) is incorrect - Leahy was talking about 40-50 more seats than the A350-1000.

To quote Leahy directly from the article:

Quote:
We don't know yet. If I had to bet, the larger part of the market will stay around the A350-1000 or 777-300ER size category ... It would be sitting right on top of them with similar range and payload and substantially lower seat-mile costs. But before putting our resources into that, we have got to determine if that is a big enough market. If the market (for) 40-50 more seats is large enough, we don't necessarily want to give that whole thing to Boeing.


[Edited 2015-11-15 06:28:23]
 
Egerton
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 234):

Thanks.

According to your source (for which many thanks) "Airbus Chief Executive Fabrice Bregier did not rule out expanding the A350 family, saying Airbus would invest where needed." That is all the Airbus CEO said.

The rest which was the the content of your numbered points 1, 2 and 3 were comments by a much less senior chap called John Leahy who is the sales chief. It was quite easy to misread this, but I suggest that the correct reading leaves a very different understanding of the views of Airbus.

No doubt JL is correct that Airbus are looking at all options, but it is FB who will put up to the Group Board whatever capex proposal he (FB) has decided is the way forward. This reading of the source puts all of us back to what was the accepted status quo, which is pretty much common for both Boeing and Airbus, but expressed best by Boeing as 'no new moonshots'.

Sales folk are unlikely to have been granted delegated authority to recommend capex to the Group Board.

[Edited 2015-11-15 06:32:44]
 
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seahawk
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:26 pm

Airbus never talked about something bigger than the 777-9. They talked about A350k + 40-50 seats. At 9 abreast we are talking about 5 rows. A very modest stretch.
 
dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:54 pm

Okay, not much bigger but at least "right on top of them" which would mean going for the full 80m (and new wing etc.).

But yes, nothing for certain atm regarding A350-1100 (A360) or A380neo.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:26 pm

The full stretch to near 80m would be around 6m or 10 frames and would give about 7 rows of 32'' Y. At 9 per row that would give 63 extra passengers and 6 to 8 ld3 container.
 
dare100em
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:03 pm

Yes, but Maybe they add a row of business too. Or they go "only" for 78m. In any case it would be the upper limit for the A350.
 
SteinarN
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 239):
The full stretch to near 80m would be around 6m or 10 frames and would give about 7 rows of 32'' Y. At 9 per row that would give 63 extra passengers and 6 to 8 ld3 container.

Yes. But keeping the ratio of business, first class and economy constant it would be more like four or five rows of Y and one row of J for a total of some 35 to 40 seats more.
 
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BaconButty
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting Egerton (Reply 236):
The rest which was the the content of your numbered points 1, 2 and 3 were comments by a much less senior chap called John Leahy who is the sales chief.

Just to nitpick, he hasn't been the sales chief for years now. He was promoted to COO a fair few years ago.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
tortugamon
Topic Author
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 239):
The full stretch to near 80m would be around 6m or 10 frames and would give about 7 rows of 32'' Y. At 9 per row that would give 63 extra passengers and 6 to 8 ld3 container.

The 787 is a 6m stretch and it adds less than 40 seats in most configurations. 6 LD3s I agree with but the 78X stretch is 5.5m and only added 4 LD3 positions so def not 8.

tortugamon
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 1973
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 242):
Just to nitpick, he hasn't been the sales chief for years now.
He was promoted to COO a fair few years ago.

Yeah 21 years actually as Chief of sales.
http://www.traveller.com.au/selling-...n-who-made-airbus-number-one-1amjg
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
Egerton
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 242):
Just to nitpick, he hasn't been the sales chief for years now. He was promoted to COO a fair few years ago.

Leahy is Chief Operating Officer - Customers. I think my summary of him as sales chief was correct. He is neither the CEO nor the COO.

[Edited 2015-11-15 14:50:35]
 
Ruscoe
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:42 am

From A350 XWB News:

In a sign that any new plane would need to be carefully marketed to avoid upstaging the existing A350-1000, Airbus chief operating officer for customers John Leahy denied reports it would be called 'A350-1100'.


Source: Rami Khanna-Prade


"There is nothing called the A350-1100 and I wouldn't call anything the 1100," he said.


Based on the article “Airbus eyes decision soon on bigger A350 jet” published in Reuters.

If this report is correct, it is interesting because, reading between the lines, to me it could mean:

1. The 359-1100 idea is either shelved or a lot further away than expected.Nothing is going to happen until the 350-1000 is flying and providing the promised performance.
2. JL has been told not to raise expectations with Airbus customers at this time.
3. Airbus has shelved plans for a large wide body based on the 350 and will instead go for a different (new) design

Ruscoe
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 231):
Productionequivalence wise 777X frames will count for 3..5 classic 777 frames.
So even if the 777 classic rate contracts to 3..4 frames a month the
the "expanded" counting of those 777X frames will keep 777 overall production
numbers in the high single digit domain. voila ..

That's not what I meant.

The 777 classic will go out of production. To secure 777X production at 7-8 jets per month, sales need to double at least.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
olle
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:09 pm

The latest developments of A350-900 to SQ with longer range does this not mean that the A350 already can handle a higher weight then earlier mentioned? I remember a number 180 tons.

A350-1100 based on A350-1000 with the improvements mentioned in the 900 version above, what weight can this verion handle and how far can it fly?

A new engine 2025-2030 will only improve this without major changes.


Why do we then need a totally new wing?

If Boeing can do this with 787-10 why not Airbus?
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
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RE: New A350-1100 Information From Reuters

Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting olle (Reply 248):
I remember a number 180 tons.

A350-900 initial MOTW was 268t.
To compensate for the excess weight in the initial batches
and because the design allowed it this was raised to 275t.
With the batch three frames allegedly meeting the original OEW
the -900 already is 7t fuel more capable.
( did they also increase MZFW ? then also more payload )

The LR raises this by another 5t to 280t.

The (potentially) available fuel volume on the A350 airframe
appears to be equal or bigger than
the 165,000l configured for the LR.

Configured volume for the base -900 is 138,000l
and 156,000l for todays -1000.

I'd be surprised if Airbus can't "find" a teeny bit of MTOW raise for the -1000 as well.
another 9t would be super  
Murphy is an optimist

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