Why Didn't DL's Ron Allen Livery Last Longer?

717atOGG · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:06 am

It looked fine in my opinion................

BravoEchoNov · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:10 am

Because the wavy gravy is better. JMO

n901wa · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:12 am

Sorry 717atOGG, but it was just ugly. I was happy to get the wavy gravy. Or go back the Widget and black nose.

mayor · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:39 am

The Ron Allen delivery, to me, looked ok in the beginning but it seemed to look outdated pretty quick. The Wavy Gravy WAS a sort of a sudden, sprung on most of us without any warning.

Also, the "frowny" Widget was not popular from the beginning.

[Edited 2015-10-29 18:55:40]

questions · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:42 am

I would love to see a cleaned up modern version of the classic widget livery.

UA444 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:54 am

Why do people like the wavy gravy? All it is was a eurowhite fuselage with random stuff on the tail. At least the Ron Allen had a cheat line to break up the white. And the frowning widget they did with the wavy gravy was ugly as hell.

mayor · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 5):
And the frowning widget they did with the wavy gravy was ugly as hell

The frowny widget started with the Ron Allen livery, I believe.

UltimateDelta · Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
Why Didn't DL's Ron Allen Livery Last Longer?

Well, it lasted until 2008...

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Photo © Wayne Campbell - CYYZ Aviation Photography

Personally I liked it way better than the Wavy Gravy livery, particularly on the MD-88 and 757.

DL_Mech · Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:10 am

Speaking of the Ron Allen Livery, the Delta typeface was not centered on the left side of the tail on early 737-800s. It was fixed on later deliveries.

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Photo © Barry Crawford

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Photo © Joe Pries - ATR Team

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Photo © Wilsam Cheung

1337Delta764 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 5):
And the frowning widget they did with the wavy gravy was ugly as hell.

Note that prior to introducing the current livery, some Wavy Gravy aircraft did get their widgets changed to the classic "sharp" red and blue widget when DL in 2004 decided to drop the frowny widget.

jfklganyc · Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:36 am

I thought it was a great livery too! Better than the subsequent Deltaflot livery. The new one is cool though.

They really went through a lot of rebranding in that time frame!

NASBWI · Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 6):
The frowny widget started with the Ron Allen livery, I believe.

Nah, it began with the "Wavy Gravy", but was updated later to the sharper widget. Honestly, the Ron Allen livery didn't look bad at all, IMO. The only issue I had in the beginning, was that the font seemed too "boring" (like someone typed it out on a PC, and slapped it on the plane). Then again, I (along with countless others) was accustomed to the sweeping font of the previous widget livery. Once I got used to the Ron Allen, I realized that it did actually compliment most of their fleet types (save maybe the L10-11, which I don't think ever got the treatment). Also, I don't think any of their MD-90s ever saw the Ron Allen livery, did they?

DocLightning · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10):

I thought it was a great livery too! Better than the subsequent Deltaflot livery

I thought it was also an excellent livery. It maintained the basic corporate colors of DL and a level of brand continuity while offering a fresh and modern (for the 1990s) look.

Deltaflot had the flag of Croatia on the tail, which I think they meant to look both patriotic and vaguely reminiscent of the widget while failing utterly at both. It used a lot of bare metal on the underside of the airframe, where bare metal gets all dirty and not shiny. There was the curvy widget that made no sense. And the colors were all wrong. Delta has never used powder blue.

The current livery is attractive, suited for the times and is true to the Delta Brand history. Lippencott was the firm that handled this. (They also did Coca-Cola back in the 1960s; they're kinda good at their job.)

It was interesting because there was a period of time in which Delta aircraft were wearing three different liveries. The old livery, Ron Allen, and then Deltaflot/Wavy Gravy. Fortunately, the new livery was instituted relatively quickly and the NW fleet was quickly converted, too.

N415XJ · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:26 am

I was never a fan of the Deltaflot livery. To me, an airliner's tail should feature either the airline logo or name so that it's easily identifiable in a lineup of planes (the one exception being Etihad's new livery, which is superb). The wavy cloth stuff meant absolutely nothing and just looked like an awful knock-off of Aeroflot's already awful post-soviet livery. That being said, the Ron Allen paint scheme looked kinda dull and would definitely look out of date by now. Delta's current livery is great IMO- it's very clean, simple, fresh, and it should age pretty well. Kind of reminds me of AF's previously livery in a way... nothing too flashy but clean and elegant.

DualQual · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:41 am

The Ron Allen livery sucked. Wavy Gravy was better but was ruined by the initial abomination that was the frowning widget. The current livery is the best livery flying right now. Nothing will compare to the original with the black nose but the current comes close. I just wish the widget on it was oriented like the 60s-90s livery.

N1120A · Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:00 am

I thought Ron Allen looked much, much better than Wavy Gravy/Deltaflot. It was really best executed on the MD-11, which I think is the plane they really had in mind when they did that livery. Also better than the current livery.

reltney · Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:01 am

As a Delta pilot for all those years, I never heard anyone in the airline ever called it wavy gravy and still don't. The crappy livery was embarrassing and the frowning widget mimicked how most felt. The real name can't be printed because some overly sensitive somebody might be offended. I was there.... Funny how that was an airliners.net made up name. Just letting you know and not trying to start anything. Just really funny.

Keep the good stuff coming.

Flam away flamers but fact is a fact.

mayor · Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 16):
As a Delta pilot for all those years, I never heard anyone in the airline ever called it wavy gravy and still don't. The crappy livery was embarrassing and the frowning widget mimicked how most felt. The real name can't be printed because some overly sensitive somebody might be offended. I was there.... Funny how that was an airliners.net made up name. Just letting you know and not trying to start anything. Just really funny.

Keep the good stuff coming.

Flam away flamers but fact is a fact.

I never heard it called wavy gravy, either until after I retired in '05.......I still don't think I know what the "official" name was. I think the original Widget scheme has been gone long enough, now, that it could make a comeback, but it won't.

Frankly, I think we should try the Travelaire livery of orange and black. I thought the '96 Olympic livery had promise, if they had adjusted it and simplified it for general use after the Olympics.

LAX772LR · Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:32 am

The crucial mistake of the Ron Allen livery was that it didn't have the corporate emblem on the tail. Same as BA's World Tails at the time.... and same as the tragedy on AA's aircraft now.

Quoting reltney (Reply 16):
I never heard anyone in the airline ever called it wavy gravy and still don't.

I heard it all the time. In fact, met quite a few who had no idea what "Colors In Motion even referred to.

DocLightning · Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):

The crucial mistake of the Ron Allen livery was that it didn't have the corporate emblem on the tail.

That isn't always necessary. WN's don't. B6's don't. NW's didn't always.

The Blue tail with the red wedge was highly reminiscent of the widget and the "Delta" on the tail removed any ambiguity.

LAX772LR · Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
B6's don't

Does B6 even *have* one?

If so, what is it?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
NW's didn't always.

But they, like BA, did correct that mistake.

N1120A · Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):

That isn't always necessary. WN's don't. B6's don't. NW's didn't always.

jetBlue doesn't have a logo. WN never really had one before they started doubling down on the heart.

RRTrent · Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
The crucial mistake of the Ron Allen livery was that it didn't have the corporate emblem on the tail. Same as BA's World Tails at the time

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):
But they, like BA, did correct that mistake.

Although the "world tails" didn't last long, BA still don't have their logo on the tail. The current livery has the union flag on, or to be exact, part of a union flag. BA's logo is the speedbird.

N1120A · Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 22):
BA's logo is the speedbird.

Actually, it is the Speedmarque. Speedbird was BOAC.

Aaron747 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:58 am

People can say it sucked all they want - hard to find a 77E anywhere that looks better than DL birds did in the Ron Allen scheme.

rj968 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):

I was hoping for that too. Couldn't quite figure out how to get the Widget on the blue tail though. Ron Allen looked dated from start but I 'll agree with those who liked it on the MD-11's and the first 777. I think only the 1st 777 had the Ron Allen but I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly if I'm wrong!

RJ

gunsontheroof · Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:12 am

The Ron Allen livery is probably the best-looking totally lame livery of all-time. Not exactly the most distinguished award, but other airlines have done much worse. Delta's 60's-90's widget livery was a classic and anything following it was bound to catch some flack from enthusiasts, but the Ron Allen livery was pretty good. I liked the "Deltaflot" colors too, but they suffered from the same condition--not hard on the eyes, but not exactly iconic. The current DL livery is fine, but it's vastly more boring than the two that proceeded it and sure as hell has nothing on the 60's-90's livery--which IMHO, is one of the best-looking mainline liveries ever flown. The Ron Allen makes the list of "top three okay-est."

skipness1E · Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:50 am

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 22):
BA's logo is the speedbird.

Nowadays it's the speedmarque and the crest.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Speedbird was BOAC.

And BA from 1972 until 1984 and the coming of the Landor livery.

Delta Air Lines no matter how you look at it, screamed 1950s IMHO. Bit like AA and "Luxury Liner". #really?

wjcandee · Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Actually, it is the Speedmarque. Speedbird was BOAC

You are correct that the current logo is the Speedmarque. You are also correct that BOAC used the Speedbird mark.

However, the correct evolution is:

The Speedbird was developed for Imperial Airways in the early 1930s by Theyre Lee-Elliott, a British artist now famous for his work creating art deco logos (as well as painting ballet dancers and scenes, and his religious art). (I will also note tangentially that the current stupid Amtrak Acela logo has always seemed to me to be a confused ripoff of Lee-Elliott's Airmail logo.)

The Speedbird was then adopted by Imperial's successor, BOAC, when it was formed in 1939. "Speedbird" was also used by BOAC as its callsign when callsigns were later required to be used.

British Airways was formed out of BOAC, BEA and other airlines in the early 1970s, and the Speedbird logo and callsign were adopted by the combined company.

In the early 1980s, when BA was spun off from government ownership, it adopted a new logo called the Speedwing.

The Speedmarque is a more recent development. In 1997, Newell & Sorrell of London developed the Speedmarque logo as part of a rebranding campaign that included retraining and an investment in improved service. It was updated in 2007.

If you want to see how seriously some folks take "branding", you can read the logo use guidelines in the context of BA's current branding -- in other words a tidal wave of marketing drivel -- at https://www.lime-management.com/App_Themes/LimeManagementUK/Resources/brand_guidelines.pdf

[Edited 2015-10-30 05:12:47]

XAM2175 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 22):
The current livery has the union flag on, or to be exact, part of a union flag

To be even more exact, it's a stylised pattern derived from the Union flag, and named "Chatham Dockyard" after the factory that produced flags for the Royal Navy for many lots of years. It was a World Tail design that was previously reserved for Concorde only... so it could be argued that BA still use the World Tails scheme, but only one actual pattern from it.

BA's earlier Landor livery did feature the BA Coat of Arms on the tail, but before that it was just two blocks of colour.

As an aside, I quite like the Deltaflot - sorry, Colours in Motion - scheme. I can admit it's a bit on the bland side though.

N776AU · Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting rj968 (Reply 25):
I think only the 1st 777 had the Ron Allen but I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly if I'm wrong!

Not sure on the 777 how many had the 1997 colors. I know only the first 767-400 N828MH was that way and it looked damn good.

RRTrent · Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Actually, it is the Speedmarque. Speedbird was BOAC.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 27):
And BA from 1972 until 1984 and the coming of the Landor livery.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 28):
You are correct that the current logo is the Speedmarque

Yes, you are very much correct, its the Speedmarque, but we can agree its not on the tail, which was the initial point of my post.

Quoting XAM2175 (Reply 29):

I knew it was a world tail, but wasn't aware of its beginnings.

Anyway back on topic, I really likes Colours in Motion... it was simple and fresh for its time....

Ron Allen, naa... its wasn't bad, but wasn't great either

I don't think anything could top the Widget. I think that livery would still look new today with a little bit of modern adjustment.

DL747400 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:07 pm

Both the Ron Allen and the Wavy Gravy liveries were terrible. I always felt that both liveries looked incredibly cheap. Few DL employees I spoke to during that time liked either livery. I recall that DL advertising was slashed to almost nothing during those days and what they did have looked like it was done by the lowest bidder.

Like all other US carriers during that time, DL was in a battle for survival. I clearly remember reading that departmental budgets were slashed across the board. From the employee perspective, morale plunged. From the passenger perspective, the product suffered. Then along came Richard and the merger with NW. At long last, DL discovered Marketing and how really good Marketing can grow revenues. DL is still learning and continues to ride that success to this day.

PA727 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:30 pm

I really think it was the font that killed the Ron Allen livery. Overall, it looks like a transitional livery, in that it was modernized yet kept a cheatline at a time when they were beginning to disappear. While the loss of the widget probably doomed it to failure for many people, with a "stronger" font, I bet it would have been looked at more favorably.

skipness1E · Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 28):

If you want to see how seriously some folks take "branding", you can read the logo use guidelines in the context of BA's current branding -- in other words a tidal wave of marketing drivel

No need t condescend someone else's area of expertise.

The totality of all that detail driiven placement got them the superbrand for 2014.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/bamediacentre/newsarticles?articleID=20140226114921#.VjN8xyssowE

Delta Air Lines B77Es were
N860DA
N861DA
N862DA
N865DA
N866DA
as N863DA was the test for Deltaflot and N864DA was "Soaring Spirit."

[Edited 2015-10-30 07:23:23]

ckfred · Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 6):

The frowny widget started with the Ron Allen livery, I believe

It was Leo Mullin who backed the frowning widget as a part of the refreshing of the branding. A lot of logos that had hard edges and sharp angles were softened over the last 20 years. So, the "frown" was introduced, to a lot of complaints from employees and passengers.

I didn't get the point of the wavy gravy tail, and the fuselage was too much white. I also noticed that if a jet bridge was aligned with L2 on the 752s, the 764s, and the 772s, the Delta title was obstructed. So with no name, no logo, and only the wavy gravy, there was nothing that really identified the airline.

I liked the Ron Allen livery better, because there were more widget overtones on the aircraft. Although, I had a discussion about the livery with a friend who flies for AA, since he spends a lot of time looking at other aircraft while in line for takeoff or sitting in the penalty box.

We both agreed that the old livery, while dated, looked better than the Ron Allen livery. It was a case of trying to freshen and update a livery, but it didn't work.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 14):
Nothing will compare to the original with the black nose but the current comes close.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 722s start out with white noses? It seems to me that most DL jets had the black nose on the nose cone. The 722s had white noses were the exception. The L-1011s had the blue stripe that wrapped around the nose, because the striping didn't align well with the cockpit windows.

In the 1980s, the L-1011 style was adapted to the rest of the fleet, starting with the 757s and 767s, as they were delivered from Boeing.

dlflynhayn · Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:30 pm

Did someone say that name Ron Allen? that brings back nightmares that guy single handedly wiped out my home base of LAX of flights,and let UA,AA,WN gain more momentum in the mid nineties.Now we are back were we should be well over 100 flights a day,id always wonder how much stronger DL would've been if Ron didn't do what he did hmmmmmm...BTW worse livery of all Ron Allen.

ckfred · Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting dlflynhayn (Reply 36):
Did someone say that name Ron Allen? that brings back nightmares that guy single handedly wiped out my home base of LAX of flights,and let UA,AA,WN gain more momentum in the mid nineties.

That was back when everyone was abandoning the West Coast. Southwest started flying in the West, and then bought Morris Air. AA sold the SJC hub to Reno Air. US dropped much of the north-south flying they had obtained with the acquisition of PSA. NW dropped what was left of the Hughes Air West route system.

Between the recession and Southwest, a lot of legacy carriers got very scared and decided to run, rather than compete.

Granted, DL's current management seems very willing to compete, but even Bob Crandall, who had a reputation for being a tough competitor, decided that he couldn't deal with Southwest at the time.

DualQual · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 35):

I think you are right on the 727s initially having a white nose. I believe the DC-8s had black only on the radome and under the cockpit windows until the end. Not sure on the L1011s. I can't tell you when the all black nose came into use. I did always think that livery looked good on any airplane in the fleet. Ron Allen looked OK on some airplanes and like crap on others. It's true, never be the one to follow the legend! But I'll admit to really hating it.

seabosdca · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting PA727 (Reply 33):
I really think it was the font that killed the Ron Allen livery.

Cover up the titles in Photoshop and you'll see that the Ron Allen livery doesn't look bad. Simple, but not Eurowhite boring, and effective. But the choice of typeface was terrible. That typeface is why it looked dated from day one and couldn't possibly be retained.

N776AU · Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 39):
But the choice of typeface was terrible. That typeface is why it looked dated from day one and couldn't possibly be retained.

The good old Times New Roman!

rikkus67 · Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 4):
I would love to see a cleaned up modern version of the classic widget livery.

I'd love to see the widget in its traditional position!

DocLightning · Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 39):
Cover up the titles in Photoshop and you'll see that the Ron Allen livery doesn't look bad. Simple, but not Eurowhite boring, and effective. But the choice of typeface was terrible. That typeface is why it looked dated from day one and couldn't possibly be retained.

Seriff fonts like Garamond and Times New Roman were all the rage in the 1990s.

seabosdca · Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting N776AU (Reply 40):
The good old Times New Roman!

It wasn't even as timeless (if ugly) as Times New Roman. It was some kind of proprietary face that screamed '80s... in the '90s.

RIX · Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting dlflynhayn (Reply 36):
worse livery of all Ron Allen

Agree. To me it looked like attempted refresh of the classic one done quite unprofessionally.

ckfred · Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
I would love to see a cleaned up modern version of the classic widget livery.

If you look in the database of photos, say before 1968 or 1969, you'll see that the DC-9-10s had the widget turned sideways, somewhat like it is now, both on the vertical stabilizer and in the vicinity of L1 and R1. When I looked, I thought something was wrong, only to realize that the red part of the widget was on the rudder, rather than across the bottom of the stabilizer.

It looks like that when DL started getting DC-10-30s, that the familiar livery that lasted until the late 90s became the norm.

mayor · Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 45):

If you look in the database of photos, say before 1968 or 1969, you'll see that the DC-9-10s had the widget turned sideways, somewhat like it is now, both on the vertical stabilizer and in the vicinity of L1 and R1. When I looked, I thought something was wrong, only to realize that the red part of the widget was on the rudder, rather than across the bottom of the stabilizer.

At one time DC-8s, CV880s and DC9-10s each had a different livery.........it wasn't until later (68-69) that the Widget scheme became universal.

When I hired on in '71, the fleet, including the L-100, had the Widget scheme we all know and love.

Vasu · Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting UltimateDelta (Reply 7):

Wow, that plane wasn't in a good shape, paint-job wise!

Ty134A · Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:13 am

there are some liveries so beautiful and classic on certain airliners that i connect the with certain emotions that kind of conditioned my aeronautical heart.

one was the L1011 in the classic delta scheme with the black nose. this airliner in this scheme can not be prettier, it is perfection in every detail. same counts for LTU's L1011.

same for the IL-86 in the classic SU livery, but with the 1991-93 russian flag. this is perfection... love it sooooo much!

the DC-10 for me is the classic shiny silver AA livery. it seems that the airliner is born to wear these colors...

The SP and DC-8 with CFM form me will always be in the blue / orange UA livery, beautiful and classic.

the TU-154B in malevs latest colors, mmmmmh!!!!

oh well, i guess it's childhood feelings there, though many impressions only from books, never live! i really miss the classic times, for example the B737-200 in LH, BA and AF colors, so classic, so beautiful, the sound, smell and feeling of these airliners. or the TU-134 of belavia, such a beautiful princess, elegant, loud and dirty.

aerokiwi · Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
The crucial mistake of the Ron Allen livery was that it didn't have the corporate emblem on the tail. Same as BA's World Tails at the time.... and same as the tragedy on AA's aircraft now.

I agree. The fuselage was great - excellent treatment of the cheatline and even the nacelles worked. But the tail design was far too bland and dispensable.

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 26):
The current DL livery is fine, but it's vastly more boring than the two that proceeded it and sure as hell has nothing on the 60's-90's livery--which IMHO, is one of the best-looking mainline liveries ever flown.

Yeah I'm not sure about the craze over the current livery. It got the widget back on the tail, though in a pretty uninspiring way, all oversized and incomplete, and the fuselage is drop dead dull. But I think it was just a releif after the multiple liveries and the mess that was the Deltaflot scheme (the fuselage colours were just all over the place - bare metals in spots depending on type, the excessive white, the whatever font).

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