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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:55 am

Unfortunately only 2 aircraft, but still. Great news!
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FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:02 am

747classic wrote:
KLM 744 combi's will (partly) return into service, starting next week.
KLM is reversing it's initial descision to ground all passenger 744's.
Philips and the Dutch Government are cooperating in supplying hospitals with medical supplies, using KLM 744combi aircraft.
See (in Dutch) : https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/189 ... evoorraden


Confirmed >> https://news.klm.com/klm-and-philips-es ... and-china/

There is still hope... I guess
 
76er
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:16 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Technical question: How can they safely operate her with an empty passenger section and a filled cargo section? How do they balance that out? I'm happy to volunteer as balance :dopey:



A couple of concrete blocks in the lower forward hold (station 11) should do the trick.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:27 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:

Technical question: How can they safely operate her with an empty passenger section and a filled cargo section? How do they balance that out? I'm happy to volunteer as balance :dopey:


I think they can balance it out through ballasting with the fuel tanks
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:55 am

In case people have an hour to spare and understand the Dutch language; Erwin van der Vaart - captain who flew PH-BFB's last flight from Rome to Amsterdam in Corendon livery - will give a live tour through the aircraft which is now parked at the Corendon Village Hotel near Schiphol Airport.

Will be live at 14:00 local time (that's an hour from now) until 15:00.

Live on Facebook en Youtube.

Image
Last edited by Iemand91 on Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dutchy
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:59 am

Yup, there back :lol: , Heintje Davids of the aviation (Dutchies on here will know what this is)


They were grounded because of the Corona crisis and because of the Corona crisis they are back in the air.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:18 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
747classic wrote:
KLM 744 combi's will (partly) return into service, starting next week.
KLM is reversing it's initial descision to ground all passenger 744's.
Philips and the Dutch Government are cooperating in supplying hospitals with medical supplies, using KLM 744combi aircraft.
See (in Dutch) : https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/189 ... evoorraden



That's amazing news and also makes a lot of sense :bouncy: . KLM has a unique bird in her hands with the 747 Combi, and although she won't be carrying passengers anymore she can still be of great service to our medical workers shipping medical equipment to Europe! See, we just can't live without the 747 :lol:

Technical question: How can they safely operate her with an empty passenger section and a filled cargo section? How do they balance that out? I'm happy to volunteer as balance :dopey:


Fuel as ballast seems to work, as mentioned upthread. Also, the last few weeks have shown great resourcefulness of airlines' and ground staff in actually packing the passenger seats with boxes, and securing these in place. So, all in all, it is actually possible that upfront sections would not be empty.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:16 pm

744combi volume capability is 140% greater than the 777-300ER, the second best choice for full freight operation by KLM passenger aircraft.
When used as "freight onlÿ" aircraft the following maximum payloads can be carried by a (KLM) 747combi and a 777-300ER

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER
213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46


With some clever loading no W&B problems will be present :
- cargo with the highest density at the FWD LWR cargo holds. Low density cargo at the lwr aft holds.
- pallets with the highest density at the most forward main deck positions, etc.

Note : Use of center wing fuel as balancing load is possible (in certain conditions), because adding extra center wing fuel shifts the CG more forward.

Nice to remember : flying at the aft CG limit SAVES FUEL and increases the performance limited TOW.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
danipawa
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:59 pm

Nice !
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:03 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Fuel as ballast seems to work, as mentioned upthread. Also, the last few weeks have shown great resourcefulness of airlines' and ground staff in actually packing the passenger seats with boxes, and securing these in place. So, all in all, it is actually possible that upfront sections would not be empty.


Putting large boxes or any large cargo on the 744 M-clas seats may not even be possible, because the 2 middle armrests cannot be folded entirely upwards. Small boxes could work...
 
andrej
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:05 pm

747classic wrote:

Note : Use of center wing fuel as balancing load is possible (in certain conditions), because adding extra center wing fuel shifts the CG more forward.

Nice to remember : flying at the aft CG limit SAVES FUEL and increases the performance limited TOW.


Thanks for this post. I understood that -400M do have ballast feature.

But, recently I heard that use of fuel ballast was not approved at KLM. As per the source, in the KLM 747 FCOM ballast fuel was not authorized (-400 and -400M). However the same source does not have KLM Weight/Balance Manual to check. Are you able to confirm this?

Also why such procedure was not allowed, another source stated that it has something to do with that planes with scavenge jet pumps, that is automated and occurs at a certain stage (fuel balance). This is automatic transfer, that can reduce ballast fuel and it is hard to evaluate for the crew.
 
Quint1
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:19 pm

Any idea which two birds will fly again?
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:22 pm

Adjust the KLM FCOM, Boeing has a procedure for ballast fuel.
Or, If using CW fuel as ballast fuel, you have to manually select the override jettson pumps to off, if the CW ballast fuel level has been reached.
For the rest of the flight regard both pumps U/S and perform the relevant NNP, requiring manual fuel system operation, a nice monitoring job for the third pilot
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:52 pm

Quint1 wrote:
Any idea which two birds will fly again?


PH-BFW - PH-BFT - PH-BFV - PH-BFS are the remaining 74M's. The PH-BFS had its KL signing partially already removed, doubtful if she wil be back in the air
 
gabep
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:30 pm

Long live the Queen! I am delighted to see she'll be reactivated for a good cause.

Gabep
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:43 pm

Could this be the shortest type retirement/reactivation period ever for a major airline?

Obviously I'm very happy to see them soldier on just a bit longer :)
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:40 pm

747classic wrote:

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER
213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46


But doesn’t the 744M also burn about 20% more fuel?
So this means that:
- The extra 40% cargo is very lucrative (very likely now of course);
- cargo is too large for 77W belly (don’t think so for respirators and face masks); and/or
- all 77Ws are busy and they need the next best thing?
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:15 pm

I think we should change the title of this topic to

KL 744 Phase out Introduction News and Discussion Thread :rotfl:
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
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zkojq
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:50 pm

Wonderful - the first positive news on a.net in weeks.

PANAMsterdam wrote:
I think we should change the title of this topic to

KL 744 Phase out Introduction News and Discussion Thread :rotfl:


:lol:
First to fly the 787-9
 
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nuke
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:26 am

FrancisBegbie wrote:
747classic wrote:

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER
213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46


But doesn’t the 744M also burn about 20% more fuel?
So this means that:
- The extra 40% cargo is very lucrative (very likely now of course);
- cargo is too large for 77W belly (don’t think so for respirators and face masks); and/or
- all 77Ws are busy and they need the next best thing?

And how cheap is fuel right now?
Dependable Engines.
 
marcelh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:23 am

FrancisBegbie wrote:
747classic wrote:

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER
213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46


But doesn’t the 744M also burn about 20% more fuel?
So this means that:
- The extra 40% cargo is very lucrative (very likely now of course);
- cargo is too large for 77W belly (don’t think so for respirators and face masks); and/or
- all 77Ws are busy and they need the next best thing?

Who cares about 20% more fuel? Those flights are going to be used to get medical goods ASAP from China to The Netherlands. Prices for getting cargo from Asia to Europe are going through the roof, so it might be lucrative to bring back these birds temporarily.
 
andrej
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:36 am

747classic wrote:
Adjust the KLM FCOM, Boeing has a procedure for ballast fuel.
Or, If using CW fuel as ballast fuel, you have to manually select the override jettson pumps to off, if the CW ballast fuel level has been reached.
For the rest of the flight regard both pumps U/S and perform the relevant NNP, requiring manual fuel system operation, a nice monitoring job for the third pilot


Thanks for your response. Very informative as usual.

Pushing my luck here, but would you happen to know OEW, MZFW, MTOW, fuel capacity, and cargo capacity for some of KLM -400Ms (or historical -400Ms for other such as Malaysian Airlines 9M-MHL/MHM)?

Thanks!
Andrej
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:38 am

marcelh wrote:
FrancisBegbie wrote:
747classic wrote:

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER
213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46


But doesn’t the 744M also burn about 20% more fuel?
So this means that:
- The extra 40% cargo is very lucrative (very likely now of course);
- cargo is too large for 77W belly (don’t think so for respirators and face masks); and/or
- all 77Ws are busy and they need the next best thing?

Who cares about 20% more fuel? Those flights are going to be used to get medical goods ASAP from China to The Netherlands. Prices for getting cargo from Asia to Europe are going through the roof, so it might be lucrative to bring back these birds temporarily.


Might be worth noting that Philips' involvement was apparently crucial for the redeployment. So fuel price is indeed not an issue anymore. Yes, KL was losing cash fast, but Philips gave them a lifeline by getting them involved in their supply chain with Philips 'paying for the gas' so to speak. It's not much, but enough to cover the operating costs for about two months.
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:58 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Fuel as ballast seems to work, as mentioned upthread. Also, the last few weeks have shown great resourcefulness of airlines' and ground staff in actually packing the passenger seats with boxes, and securing these in place. So, all in all, it is actually possible that upfront sections would not be empty.


Putting large boxes or any large cargo on the 744 M-clas seats may not even be possible, because the 2 middle armrests cannot be folded entirely upwards. Small boxes could work...


Just rip those armrest out, these aircraft will never be used for passengers anyhow. They could rip out every other row of seats and put the boxes in between. Fasten the boxes with cargonets and go.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:20 am

tvh wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Fuel as ballast seems to work, as mentioned upthread. Also, the last few weeks have shown great resourcefulness of airlines' and ground staff in actually packing the passenger seats with boxes, and securing these in place. So, all in all, it is actually possible that upfront sections would not be empty.


Putting large boxes or any large cargo on the 744 M-clas seats may not even be possible, because the 2 middle armrests cannot be folded entirely upwards. Small boxes could work...


Just rip those armrest out, these aircraft will never be used for passengers anyhow. They could rip out every other row of seats and put the boxes in between. Fasten the boxes with cargonets and go.


No need for that kind of vandalism (and also potential certification consequences?). There are plenty of photos floating around the net (and a.net), with boxes neatly fitting into Y seats. Including on a delivery flight of a new airliner recently (was it an A220 to Air Baltic, if memory serves me?). If boxes can be accommodated in Y-class seats, I think that they can be quite comfortable in World Business Class seats...
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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cjg225
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:28 am

Don't see it mentioned anywhere in here, but KL operated at least one 744 (not sure which) between KIX and AMS last week for pharmaceutical shipments on a charter basis for UPS (who was arranging it for a particular customer that may or may not be my employer).
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
marcelh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:39 am

cjg225 wrote:
Don't see it mentioned anywhere in here, but KL operated at least one 744 (not sure which) between KIX and AMS last week for pharmaceutical shipments on a charter basis for UPS (who was arranging it for a particular customer that may or may not be my employer).

Last week KLM has flown to KIX with B772 or B789
 
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cjg225
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:07 pm

marcelh wrote:
cjg225 wrote:
Don't see it mentioned anywhere in here, but KL operated at least one 744 (not sure which) between KIX and AMS last week for pharmaceutical shipments on a charter basis for UPS (who was arranging it for a particular customer that may or may not be my employer).

Last week KLM has flown to KIX with B772 or B789

Hmm. I stand corrected. I got this information from one of my colleagues in Europe who worked on the charter, and it seems he was incorrect.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:08 pm

marcelh wrote:
Who cares about 20% more fuel? Those flights are going to be used to get medical goods ASAP from China to The Netherlands. Prices for getting cargo from Asia to Europe are going through the roof, so it might be lucrative to bring back these birds temporarily.


What a delightfully Dutch way of saying: "I agree with you option A is the most likely" :D

I'm pretty sure that KL's finance department is the first party who cares that about 20% more fuel, unless somebody else is paying for it. Considering the current financial situation they would probably put your head on a stake next to the entrance of the Head Office for way less than burning that extra fuel without reason or reward.
 
proest
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:31 pm

Quint1 wrote:
Any idea which two birds will fly again?


PH-BFT and PH-BFV. Also (unrelated to this topic) early retirements of A330's are discussed. It seems KLM will seriously shrink its operation after Covid-19.
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:04 pm

proest wrote:
Quint1 wrote:
Any idea which two birds will fly again?


PH-BFT and PH-BFV. Also (unrelated to this topic) early retirements of A330's are discussed. It seems KLM will seriously shrink its operation after Covid-19.


Could they replace them with A321LR's, That way they can keep there slots / network and stil reduce capacity.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:45 pm

PH-BFT and -BFV got a little TLC today. They can start the PEK and PVG service this Monday.
There's a rumour -BFW will join too next weekend.

So that would be 3 out of 4 remaining combi aircraft back in service. The 4th (-BFS) has all her titles (including registration) removed.
All titles (apart from registration) has also been removed from the full pax -BFY.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:41 am

Iemand91 wrote:
PH-BFT and -BFV got a little TLC today. They can start the PEK and PVG service this Monday.
There's a rumour -BFW will join too next weekend.

So that would be 3 out of 4 remaining combi aircraft back in service. The 4th (-BFS) has all her titles (including registration) removed.
All titles (apart from registration) has also been removed from the full pax -BFY.


PH-BFW will be operational again from April 18th.
See (in Dutch) : https://www.facebook.com/groups/FarewellKLMBoeing747
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:44 pm

First 747 is back in action; PH-BFT is going to ICN and then onwards to PEK: https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM897/245bceb9
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:40 am

Departure video of PH-BFT towards ICN : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwNK5d ... e=youtu.be
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:47 am

747classic wrote:
Departure video of PH-BFT towards ICN : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwNK5d ... e=youtu.be

Great to see it back in the air! Now to hope that market circumstances result in the type staying in service even longer...

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:28 pm

The second KLM 747combi (PH-BFW) departed for ICN, see : https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM897/245ced00
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:09 pm

747classic wrote:
The second KLM 747combi (PH-BFW) departed for ICN, see : https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM897/245ced00


Departure video of the "back in service" PH-BFW : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1lcxX ... e=youtu.be
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AMP44
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:33 am

747classic wrote:
747classic wrote:
The second KLM 747combi (PH-BFW) departed for ICN, see : https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM897/245ced00


Departure video of the "back in service" PH-BFW : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1lcxX ... e=youtu.be


Why is she not wearing the 100 Years logo anymore?
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:48 am

PH-BFT returned from PEK to AMS at April 16th.
According the Loadmaster Herman Reede, the payload was volume limited, (so 140% more payload than a volume limited 777W)
See for pictures at PEK and during flight : https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 851329981/

PH-BFT is already scheduled for the next flight, KL893 to ICN at April 17th.
The schedule seems to be AMS-ICN-PEK-AMS, with a crew change at ICN.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AMS18C36C
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:27 am

Phosphorus wrote:
tvh wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:

Putting large boxes or any large cargo on the 744 M-clas seats may not even be possible, because the 2 middle armrests cannot be folded entirely upwards. Small boxes could work...


Just rip those armrest out, these aircraft will never be used for passengers anyhow. They could rip out every other row of seats and put the boxes in between. Fasten the boxes with cargonets and go.


No need for that kind of vandalism (and also potential certification consequences?). There are plenty of photos floating around the net (and a.net), with boxes neatly fitting into Y seats. Including on a delivery flight of a new airliner recently (was it an A220 to Air Baltic, if memory serves me?). If boxes can be accommodated in Y-class seats, I think that they can be quite comfortable in World Business Class seats...

tvh wrote:
proest wrote:
Quint1 wrote:
Any idea which two birds will fly again?


PH-BFT and PH-BFV. Also (unrelated to this topic) early retirements of A330's are discussed. It seems KLM will seriously shrink its operation after Covid-19.


Could they replace them with A321LR's, That way they can keep there slots / network and stil reduce capacity.


That belongs in the 737-replacement thread and the thread where the rumour was discussed that KLM was looking at 321's.

Oh, and how do they determine which boxes get an upgrade to J? ;) :D
 
CURQ400
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:42 pm

747classic wrote:
PH-BFT returned from PEK to AMS at April 16th.
According the Loadmaster Herman Reede, the payload was volume limited, (so 140% more payload than a volume limited 777W)
See for pictures at PEK and during flight : https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 851329981/

PH-BFT is already scheduled for the next flight, KL893 to ICN at April 17th.
The schedule seems to be AMS-ICN-PEK-AMS, with a crew change at ICN.


Shouldn’t that be 40% more?
 
proest
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:16 pm

Currently, the first AC777-style conversion (ripping out all the chairs) is being planned at KL. I am wondering how much extra cargo space/ cargo weight this will create. But a fast guestimate makes me think that the volume capacity grows with at least 40% (matching the 74M) while the weight savings makes the difference in load capacity disappear. Loading time will naturally be significantly longer, but that is not a worry in the short-run (6-12months).

I wouldn't be surprised if KL will retire the combi's again in a few week's time and replace them with 777 without chairs and keep them as handicapped freighters. As long as demand for passenger seats demands that. A situation that can be easily 12-15 months away.

I expect the 74M to be retired sooner than later. The 777 simply have better economics while providing a pad to temporarily shrink the passenger fleet.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:26 pm

proest wrote:
Currently, the first AC777-style conversion (ripping out all the chairs) is being planned at KL....

... Loading time will naturally be significantly longer, but that is not a worry in the short-run (6-12months)...


How about practicality? Without an external cargo door like on the 74M, it's impossible to load main deck ULD's on a 777.
 
A388
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:52 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
proest wrote:
Currently, the first AC777-style conversion (ripping out all the chairs) is being planned at KL....

... Loading time will naturally be significantly longer, but that is not a worry in the short-run (6-12months)...


How about practicality? Without an external cargo door like on the 74M, it's impossible to load main deck ULD's on a 777.


As mentioned already, time for loading is less of an issue now, or no issue at all. So, even loading manually on the converted passenger main deck will be no problem. ULD's for these passenger-cargo converted flights aren't necessary because of the crisis. It's the fastest way to get these goods to those countries as full freighters are hard to get (they are all busy flying) while there are a lot of passenger aircraft not flying which can also be used to haul cargo even though in a different way but still quicker compared to waiting on full freighter availability.

Airlines wouldn't do this if there wasn't a demand for them (passenger aircraft being used for cargo only flights on the main deck and lower deck).

A388
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:07 pm

About a half hour ago PH-BFV left Amsterdam for Seoul; now all 3 747's (PH-BFT, -BFV and -BFW) are back in action.
https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM895/24603da0
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
FGITD
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:39 pm

proest wrote:
Currently, the first AC777-style conversion (ripping out all the chairs) is being planned at KL. I am wondering how much extra cargo space/ cargo weight this will create. But a fast guestimate makes me think that the volume capacity grows with at least 40% (matching the 74M) while the weight savings makes the difference in load capacity disappear. Loading time will naturally be significantly longer, but that is not a worry in the short-run (6-12months).

I wouldn't be surprised if KL will retire the combi's again in a few week's time and replace them with 777 without chairs and keep them as handicapped freighters. As long as demand for passenger seats demands that. A situation that can be easily 12-15 months away.

I expect the 74M to be retired sooner than later. The 777 simply have better economics while providing a pad to temporarily shrink the passenger fleet.


I agree. Nice to see the 747s flying again, but I think it's definitely a temporary bandaid.

The combi is great for oversized cargo (horses, engines, etc) but for the type of freight being moved these days, it really doesn't make a huge difference. It's all boxes that are relatively lightweight. You still have to load/offload manually, regardless of ULD. Only difference is doing it in a warehouse for a ULD or at the aircraft for loose. I've seen a few cases where loose is actually a bit quicker because you can offload the packages directly into a truck from the aircraft.

Interestingly enough, it seems the load planning for loose boxes is actually easier than pax. Less variables, extremely consistent spread. No idea how that effects fuel efficiency or all that stuff though.

Either way, crazy times. If you'd told me 6 months ago that we'd be pulling seats out of pax 777s to fill them with boxes I'd have never believed you.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:09 pm

The resurgence of the KLM 747-combi aircraft is for 6-8 weeks. I thought that was mentioned here before, but looks like it was not.
So this is not a long term thing; the plan was 6-8 weeks, not longer (unless plans change).
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:56 pm

Sorry if I missed this -- but now, that these Combis are back in the air, flying cargo, do we know the crew complement? Two pilots only, or more pilots? Any FA's, as speculated? Any "loadmaster"/"supercargo"?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:51 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
The resurgence of the KLM 747-combi aircraft is for 6-8 weeks. I thought that was mentioned here before, but looks like it was not.
So this is not a long term thing; the plan was 6-8 weeks, not longer (unless plans change).


The plan changed once. It will change again.

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