747classic wrote:

Iemand91 wrote:

It's the final 10 days for KLM 747 operations.
Last flight will likely be KL894 arriving at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport at 17:40 on Sunday October 25.

A very strange decision to phase out the best " temporally freighter" in the KLM fleet, just before the cargo peak season and during the second covid -19 wave, requiring more medical supplies to be transported again.

KLM has plenty of long haul planes for the winter season. More than enough capacity.

inkjet7 wrote:

747classic wrote:

Iemand91 wrote:

It's the final 10 days for KLM 747 operations.
Last flight will likely be KL894 arriving at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport at 17:40 on Sunday October 25.

A very strange decision to phase out the best " temporally freighter" in the KLM fleet, just before the cargo peak season and during the second covid -19 wave, requiring more medical supplies to be transported again.

KLM has plenty of long haul planes for the winter season. More than enough capacity.

We are talking about long haul volume cargo capacity during the cargo peak season only, not about the limited volume cargo underfloor capacity of the KLM passenger long haul fleet (A332, A333, B789 , B78X, 772 and 773)

Many cargo airlines are re-activating (very expensive !!) stored 747 freighters just before this peak season, but KLM stores it's remaining combi's (acting as "standby" freighters) just before the peak season.

747classic wrote:

RvA wrote:

LH is also moving away from using their 747-8s in favour of A350s for the winter. Seems cargo demand doesn’t require it anymore or KL and LH are making mistakes? Doubt it given the pressure they’re under they’d do this if not absolutely sure.

LH has only all pax 747-8 (-400) aircraft with limited cargo (volume) payload, but high passenger capacity (not needed in winter)

KL has three combi 747's with far more cargo volume and payload than the rest of the KLM long range fleet, so they can still be operated in the" temporally freighter" role during the cargo peak season.

Clearly that extra cargo capacity isn’t deemed necessary was my point. LH is flying the 747-8 on those routes because of the cargo capacity, they are not filling them with pax. But clearly this winter even that is seemingly not needed.

KL is also under pressure to cut costs throughout the entire company in order to stay afloat. The last three 74E's are not exactly the most fuel efficient ones either.

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

KL is also under pressure to cut costs throughout the entire company in order to stay afloat. The last three 74E's are not exactly the most fuel efficient ones either.

Behind the four KLM/MP dedicated freighters, these three 744combi's are the most fuel efficient (kg fuel/ kg payload) at long haul cargo destinations.
The fuel consumption is higher (25%), but the (volume) payload is much higher (40%), more than compensating for the higher fuel consumption.

Most efficient cargo only KLM aircraft.

- 3x 747-406ERF , highest payload
- 1x 747-412BCF, second highest payload
- 3x 747-406M,
- 777-300ER, 25 % lower fuel consumption, but 40 % less volume payload than 747-406M.

Shedding of the 747s Combis at this time is very much a questionable move. United's CEO spoke the other day and didn't see traffic coming back to "normal" until 2024. Cargo carrying workhorses that are in your stable are worth their weight in gold at this point.

As 747Classic stated, airlines are pulling 747s that have been parked in the desert for quite some time, getting them up to standards at high cost and then flying them flat out once in service. KLM's move here doesn't match the flat out "madness" of people searching for cargo variant 747s right now.

Is there any way KLM has sold them to a high priced bidder and "taken the money and ran"?

it seems already one customer have shown interest to buy last three combi's

CX747 wrote:

Shedding of the 747s Combis at this time is very much a questionable move. United's CEO spoke the other day and didn't see traffic coming back to "normal" until 2024. Cargo carrying workhorses that are in your stable are worth their weight in gold at this point.

As 747Classic stated, airlines are pulling 747s that have been parked in the desert for quite some time, getting them up to standards at high cost and then flying them flat out once in service. KLM's move here doesn't match the flat out "madness" of people searching for cargo variant 747s right now.

Is there any way KLM has sold them to a high priced bidder and "taken the money and ran"?

That might be a reasonable assumption. Any smart cargo carrier would certainly buy these 74E's and convert them into full full freighters, especially now.

747classic wrote:

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

KL is also under pressure to cut costs throughout the entire company in order to stay afloat. The last three 74E's are not exactly the most fuel efficient ones either.

Behind the four KLM/MP dedicated freighters, these three 744combi's are the most fuel efficient (kg fuel/ kg payload) at long haul cargo destinations.
The fuel consumption is higher (25%), but the (volume) payload is much higher (40%), more than compensating for the higher fuel consumption.

Most efficient cargo only KLM aircraft.

- 3x 747-406ERF , highest payload
- 1x 747-412BCF, second highest payload
- 3x 747-406M,
- 777-300ER, 25 % lower fuel consumption, but 40 % less volume payload than 747-406M.

Do you know the floor loading for 747 pax not converted to F, but seats removed, every flyable 747-400F/BCF/D|BDSF or even 200F are returning to skies, National just picked up one stored ex CX BCF last flew 7 years ago, it would be great to know, with many airlines dunping pax 747, how much potentially one could carry, assume that aircraft still have cycles/hours left.

Kev

Wouldn’t be surprised if National, Western Global and possibly even Sky Lease Cargo are sniffing around these 3 74M’s.

B-HOP wrote:

747classic wrote:

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

KL is also under pressure to cut costs throughout the entire company in order to stay afloat. The last three 74E's are not exactly the most fuel efficient ones either.

Behind the four KLM/MP dedicated freighters, these three 744combi's are the most fuel efficient (kg fuel/ kg payload) at long haul cargo destinations.
The fuel consumption is higher (25%), but the (volume) payload is much higher (40%), more than compensating for the higher fuel consumption.

Most efficient cargo only KLM aircraft.

- 3x 747-406ERF , highest payload
- 1x 747-412BCF, second highest payload
- 3x 747-406M,
- 777-300ER, 25 % lower fuel consumption, but 40 % less volume payload than 747-406M.

Do you know the floor loading for 747 pax not converted to F, but seats removed, every flyable 747-400F/BCF/D|BDSF or even 200F are returning to skies, National just picked up one stored ex CX BCF last flew 7 years ago, it would be great to know, with many airlines dunping pax 747, how much potentially one could carry, assume that aircraft still have cycles/hours left.

Kev

Make that 3 ex SQ/CX/KA 744BCF’s for National, the COVID-19 Cargo thread is pretty detailed.

PH-BFT and -BFV at Schiphol, October 20, 2020:


Source: Martijn de Rooze: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 886649739/

Currently PH-BFW is on her way to Amsterdam as KL894 from Shanghai; expected arrival at 18:14.
This afternoon, -BFT will go out as KL893 to PVG at 17:35, and -BFV as KL895 at 21:45.

Final 3 days as of now:

Friday 23 October:
PH-BFT 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG
PH-BFV 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFW 17:35 KL893 from PVG

Saturday 24 October:
PH-BFT 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFV 17:35 KL893 to PVG
PH-BFW 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG

Sunday 25 October:
PH-BFT
PH-BFV 16:40 KL894 from PVG
PH-BFW 20:50 KL896 from PVG

If nothing changes, all 3 aircraft have 2 return flights left and -BFW will be the last ever KLM 747 pax flight (without pax...)

Iemand91 wrote:

Currently PH-BFW is on her way to Amsterdam as KL894 from Shanghai; expected arrival at 18:14.
This afternoon, -BFT will go out as KL893 to PVG at 17:35, and -BFV as KL895 at 21:45.

Final 3 days as of now:

Friday 23 October:
PH-BFT 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG
PH-BFV 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFW 17:35 KL893 from PVG

Saturday 24 October:
PH-BFT 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFV 17:35 KL893 to PVG
PH-BFW 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG

Sunday 25 October:
PH-BFT
PH-BFV 16:40 KL894 from PVG
PH-BFW 20:50 KL896 from PVG

If nothing changes, all 3 aircraft have 2 return flights left and -BFW will be the last ever KLM 747 pax flight (without pax...)

If AMS gate planning would be so kind to park them at three stands next to eachother next friday, that would be great...

Iemand91 wrote:

Currently PH-BFW is on her way to Amsterdam as KL894 from Shanghai; expected arrival at 18:14.
This afternoon, -BFT will go out as KL893 to PVG at 17:35, and -BFV as KL895 at 21:45.

Final 3 days as of now:

Friday 23 October:
PH-BFT 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG
PH-BFV 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFW 17:35 KL893 from PVG

Saturday 24 October:
PH-BFT 21:50 KL896 from PVG
PH-BFV 17:35 KL893 to PVG
PH-BFW 17:40 KL894 from PVG | 21:45 KL895 to PVG

Sunday 25 October:
PH-BFT
PH-BFV 16:40 KL894 from PVG
PH-BFW 20:50 KL896 from PVG

If nothing changes, all 3 aircraft have 2 return flights left and -BFW will be the last ever KLM 747 pax flight (without pax...)

Hi lemand91. What do you see as the post KLM retirement fate for these three Combis. Part out or is there enough left in them hours and cycles-wise for a rebirth with a freighter airline?

IMHO the only combi that would have been suitable for conversion is -BFY, it is still fairly young for a 744 at 18 years of age. Just a few years ago Asiana did just that, performed by Bedek.

aristoenigma wrote:

Hi lemand91. What do you see as the post KLM retirement fate for these three Combis. Part out or is there enough left in them hours and cycles-wise for a rebirth with a freighter airline?

I honestly have no idea. But it would surprise me if they will have a 2nd life after this.

Of the 19 retired 747-400's (7 full pax / 12 combi) so far, 10 have been scrapped already (1 full pax / 9 combi) with the 11 about to be scrapped or also already gone. (PH-BFH full pax in Teruel).

A 747 pax to cargo conversion would be suprising too; the last were 2 Asiana 747's in 2017 in Tel Aviv.

PH-BFT is on her way making her last commercial flight PVG-AMS: https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM896/25db44f0

lemand91
10 scrapped and 11 about to be scrapped is 21, not 19.

bennett123 wrote:

lemand91
10 scrapped and 11 about to be scrapped is 21, not 19.

I meant 19 aircaft have been retired with 10 of them scrapped and with the 11th about to be scrapped or already scrapped (PH-BFH at Teruel)

Right i get it.

The future for these jets would depend upon how old they are, how many hours/cycles they have, along with when heavy maintenance due.

Amazon has been converting what were once thought to be "to old" 767s and flying them just fine with ATI or Atlas. The same could possibly be done with these 747s by somebody else paying attention. Conversion of a combi to full freighter supposedly takes half the usual conversion time. So, three months to get a fully converted 747 freighter. That's not to shabby and in today's market, if the jets are in good condition, somebody could bite. In less than 1 year from purchase an airline could have 3 well maintained 747 freighters ready to go for an exploding cargo market.

CX747 wrote:

The future for these jets would depend upon how old they are, how many hours/cycles they have, along with when heavy maintenance due.

Amazon has been converting what were once thought to be "to old" 767s and flying them just fine with ATI or Atlas. The same could possibly be done with these 747s by somebody else paying attention. Conversion of a combi to full freighter supposedly takes half the usual conversion time. So, three months to get a fully converted 747 freighter. That's not to shabby and in today's market, if the jets are in good condition, somebody could bite. In less than 1 year from purchase an airline could have 3 well maintained 747 freighters ready to go for an exploding cargo market.

IAI (Bedek), the only remaining 747 P-F conversion site, is fully booked out with 767-200/300 BDSF conversions in 2020/2021.
At short term no 747 conversion is available (no experienced manpower), also the conversion kits (floorbeams, inner lining, etc) have to be ordered and produced.

Meanwhile PH-BFT "City of Tokyo" has made her final commercial flight as KL896 from PVG to AMS and has landed at Amsterdam Airport:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 998897861/

And tonight just before 10 o'clock, PH-BFW "City of Shanghai" was pushed back at Amsterdam to perform the last ever outbound commercial KLM 747 pax flight.
She departed just seconds before -BFT connected to the gate at her arrival.

Final KLM 747 pax departure from Amsterdam:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 765552051/


Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 532214341/


Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=37 ... n__=%2CO*F

Ishrion wrote:

KLM has been using the 747s for pax lately? Since when and which routes?

No, just cargo (and LOTS of it).
But they are the last KLM flights with 747 pax aircraft.
KLM still has 747 freighters left so I have to specifically mention the "pax" part.

Ishrion wrote:

Iemand91 wrote:

And tonight just before 10 o'clock, PH-BFW "City of Shanghai" was pushed back at Amsterdam to perform the last ever outbound commercial KLM 747 pax flight.
She departed just seconds before -BFT connected to the gate at her arrival.

Final KLM 747 pax departure from Amsterdam:

KLM has been using the 747s for pax lately? Since when and which routes?

The situation is as follows:

This weekend, at the close of Summer 2020 schedules, KLM operated its final commercial services with the three remaining B747-400M Combi aircraft in its fleet: PH-BFT, PH-BFV and PH-BFW. These 3x aircraft have been used as 'Preighters', with cargo-in-cabin service since April 2020. The last KLM B747 passenger flights were operated in March 2020.

Quite separately, the KLM Cargo/Martinair Cargo fleet of 3x B747-400ERF (KLM Cargo livery) and 1x B747-400FSC (Martinair Cargo livery) will continue to operate scheduled freighter services to Africa, North- Central and South America for the coming years.

Are there any speculative dates yet for their final flights to the boneyard (likely MHV) for retirement? Very sad to see them go...

PH-BFW will land in about 20 minutes.
Livestreams here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_QLCytNjkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wolscx6XNJc

People are discouraged to watch at Schiphol; spotting places and the like are closed off.

Typo PH-BFV has arrived and PH-BFW will arrive later tonight 20:50

Iemand91 wrote:

PH-BFW will land in about 20 minutes.
Livestreams here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_QLCytNjkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wolscx6XNJc

People are discouraged to watch at Schiphol; spotting places and the like are closed off.

Yeah, typo. And on this forum you can't fix your typos...

Goodbye Queen! Thanks for your service! There will be never a plane like you

Last flight is about 20 minutes from landing.
Last flight is flown by PH-BFW "City of Shanghai" (how fitting).
She was delivered to KLM on October 26, 2000; exactly 20 years ago tomorrow.

Live streams are live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0baQt ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS16GCX3xZY

And engines turning off...

They’ve taken three 747’s out of service together at a time of strong freight demand. That’s a lot of freight uplift to replace with what?

airsmiles wrote:

They’ve taken three 747’s out of service together at a time of strong freight demand. That’s a lot of freight uplift to replace with what?

There is an unconfirmed rumour floating around internally that they might be sold and reused to an cargo carrier. So maybe a second life instead of retirement...

The KL/MP cargo department seems not be able (or willing) to operate three 747combi aircraft (the best standby freighter available) during the upcoming cargo peak season.
Retirement after the peak season would have been more economically, also seen the fact that the now not needed 747 pilots are receiving "waiting money" according the latest union agreement.

Note : All over the world cargo airlines are activating freighters, due the present reduced belly load capacity

There might be a lot of politics involved in the making of this decision.

747classic wrote:

The KL/MP cargo department seems not be able (or willing) to operate three 747combi aircraft (the best standby freighter available) during the upcoming cargo peak season.
Retirement after the peak season would have been more economically, also seen the fact that the now not needed 747 pilots are receiving "waiting money" according the latest union agreement.

Note : All over the world cargo airlines are activating freighters, due the present reduced belly load capacity

The cargo in cabin model is marginal. It could be these aircraft are due for service that is not economical to perform.

These are expensive aircraft to fly. It is just time.

Lightsaber

inkjet7 wrote:

There might be a lot of politics involved in the making of this decision.

What‘s “a lot of politics“ mean?

lightsaber wrote:

747classic wrote:

The KL/MP cargo department seems not be able (or willing) to operate three 747combi aircraft (the best standby freighter available) during the upcoming cargo peak season.
Retirement after the peak season would have been more economically, also seen the fact that the now not needed 747 pilots are receiving "waiting money" according the latest union agreement.

Note : All over the world cargo airlines are activating freighters, due the present reduced belly load capacity

The cargo in cabin model is marginal. It could be these aircraft are due for service that is not economical to perform.

These are expensive aircraft to fly. It is just time.

Lightsaber

I am not questioning that the combi's will have to leave. However, two were original scheduled to operate until April 2021, so no HMV is due until that time.
Also 747 licended flight crew is available and these crews have to be payed in November -December, with or without active 747combi's.
I was questioning the timing : Just before the peak cargo season.

Regarding the cargo in cabin model.
The 747-400Combi is able to carry up to 55 tons of cargo at the lower decks and at the 7 main deck 10 ft pallet positions. On top of that a lot of light volume cargo can be carried in the cabin.

It's by far the best long range passenger aircraft used for cargo only in the KLM fleet. (25 % more fuelconsumption, but 40% more cargo volume than the next best, the 777-300ER)

All 3 parked at Schiphol-East today:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 091845585/

RvA wrote:

inkjet7 wrote:

There might be a lot of politics involved in the making of this decision.

What‘s “a lot of politics“ mean?

It is related to the savings KLM has to make to get direct loans and guarantees for bank loans from the government.

inkjet7 wrote:

RvA wrote:

inkjet7 wrote:

There might be a lot of politics involved in the making of this decision.

What‘s “a lot of politics“ mean?

It is related to the savings KLM has to make to get direct loans and guarantees for bank loans from the government.

So does that mean the aircraft flying with cargo etc make less money than it costs to maintain active in the fleet?

inkjet7 wrote:

RvA wrote:

inkjet7 wrote:

There might be a lot of politics involved in the making of this decision.

What‘s “a lot of politics“ mean?

It is related to the savings KLM has to make to get direct loans and guarantees for bank loans from the government.

Lines up with a lot of facts. Semi counter productive but you follow the big money I guess. Hopefully an enterprising outfit can put these birds back to work.

Titles have been removed from PH-BFT "City of Tokyo"


Source

Iemand91 wrote:

Titles have been removed from PH-BFT "City of Tokyo"


Source

Does this mean scrapped? Or still stored as KLM asset?

aristoenigma wrote:

Iemand91 wrote:

Titles have been removed from PH-BFT "City of Tokyo"


Source

Does this mean scrapped? Or still stored as KLM asset?

Removal of company idenity marks often means change in ownership, so no longer KL asset. If they were meant to be scrapped, they would be have already been flown to TER, GBA or EHTW by now... So to be continued...

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

aristoenigma wrote:

Iemand91 wrote:

Titles have been removed from PH-BFT "City of Tokyo"


Source

Does this mean scrapped? Or still stored as KLM asset?

Removal of company idenity marks often means change in ownership, so no longer KL asset. If they were meant to be scrapped, they would be have already been flown to TER, GBA or EHTW by now... So to be continued...

One of the comments on this post says that she’ll leave before mid December, my personal bet is that she’ll ferry AMS-ORD-MHV like her sisters. If you use deductive reasoning/compare to what the other KLM 747s did, it would seem that ‘only’ Mondays are possible departure dates. As mid December is the LATEST that BFT could leave, my bet is that she’ll leave on December 7 (last week of November is Thanksgiving, doubt they’d send her that week, anything earlier is too soon since she needs her 3rd engine switched out). It makes even more sense when you look at PH-BFL, she flew to MHV on October 5, fast forward to December and it makes sense that BFT would be retired at the same ‘corresponding’ time (early in the month on a Monday). Link to the original post below:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/FarewellK ... oup_browse

VCVSpotter wrote:

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

aristoenigma wrote:

Does this mean scrapped? Or still stored as KLM asset?

Removal of company idenity marks often means change in ownership, so no longer KL asset. If they were meant to be scrapped, they would be have already been flown to TER, GBA or EHTW by now... So to be continued...

One of the comments on this post says that she’ll leave before mid December, my personal bet is that she’ll ferry AMS-ORD-MHV like her sisters. If you use deductive reasoning/compare to what the other KLM 747s did, it would seem that ‘only’ Mondays are possible departure dates. As mid December is the LATEST that BFT could leave, my bet is that she’ll leave on December 7 (last week of November is Thanksgiving, doubt they’d send her that week, anything earlier is too soon since she needs her 3rd engine switched out). It makes even more sense when you look at PH-BFL, she flew to MHV on October 5, fast forward to December and it makes sense that BFT would be retired at the same ‘corresponding’ time (early in the month on a Monday). Link to the original post below:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/FarewellK ... oup_browse

It all depends which company KL sold them to. If it is a Russian cargo carrier, they might go into the opposite direction...

Titles have been removed from PH-BFV "City of Vancouver' as well.







Source