FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:15 am

KL staff in general are quite sentimental about these birds imho, I'm sure they will give it a proper send-off post crisis. They are effectively just grounding them.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:52 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
KL staff in general are quite sentimental about these birds imho, I'm sure they will give it a proper send-off post crisis. They are effectively just grounding them.



That remains to be seen. Cash is one of the vocal points right now so having them moved and parted out means cash. Having them sitting idle costs money.

Yes some if not all are sentimental, my wife included. She absolutely loved working on the 747 because of the space the galley offers and her looks. She works on the entire longhaul fleet but says nothing beats the queen.
Flying blue only if possible
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:12 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
KL staff in general are quite sentimental about these birds imho, I'm sure they will give it a proper send-off post crisis. They are effectively just grounding them.



That remains to be seen. Cash is one of the vocal points right now so having them moved and parted out means cash. Having them sitting idle costs money.

Yes some if not all are sentimental, my wife included. She absolutely loved working on the 747 because of the space the galley offers and her looks. She works on the entire longhaul fleet but says nothing beats the queen.



Part-out is a cost, and we can expect the markets for spares (especially for older types) to be sluggish. Dumping more parts into sluggish market simply lowers the price, without much additional turnover.
While break-up costs will need to be paid upfront. As you've said, cash rules in crisis.
These calculations are inherently complex, but there could be a situation, when delay of break-up of (at least some of the) KLM's 747's could actually make sense.
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:44 am

I think i will throw myself crying onto the runway when the last Queen has taxied into position. Nooooo!! Don't leave us!!
Air France is French AF
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:48 am

With collapse in belly cargo capacity, is there a chance the Combis will get a reprieve, flying cargo alone?
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inkjet7
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:58 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
With collapse in belly cargo capacity, is there a chance the Combis will get a reprieve, flying cargo alone?

I think it's cheaper to use a 787-10 or 77W for that purpose. They can haul quite a lot of freight without pax and bags on board.
 
LatinPlane
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:25 pm

Anyone have official news as to the last flights 744 flights operated by KLM? I was booked on 744 Combi next week from LAX to AMS flying business. I'm wondering when the last flights will operate? I may try to change the trip despite all the uncertainly just to see if I get on one of the last flights.
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
With collapse in belly cargo capacity, is there a chance the Combis will get a reprieve, flying cargo alone?

I think it's cheaper to use a 787-10 or 77W for that purpose. They can haul quite a lot of freight without pax and bags on board.


The lower cargo holds of the 78X and 77W will be volume limited and not weight limited, in most cases.
A 747combi has far more cargo volume at the maindeck (7X 10 ft pallets), plus also lower deck cargo holds..
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:22 pm

747classic wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
With collapse in belly cargo capacity, is there a chance the Combis will get a reprieve, flying cargo alone?

I think it's cheaper to use a 787-10 or 77W for that purpose. They can haul quite a lot of freight without pax and bags on board.


The lower cargo holds of the 78X and 77W will be volume limited and not weight limited, in most cases.
A 747combi has far more cargo volume at the maindeck (7X 10 ft pallets), plus also lower deck cargo holds..


Thank you, that makes sense.
Which brings the next question -- as these planes were slated for scrapping anyway, does a quick-and-dirty removal of seats/galleys/other passenger-related equipment from the main deck make sense? Or would it somehow affect their legal "Combi" certification, and ground them completely?
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A388
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:46 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Thank you, that makes sense.
Which brings the next question -- as these planes were slated for scrapping anyway, does a quick-and-dirty removal of seats/galleys/other passenger-related equipment from the main deck make sense? Or would it somehow affect their legal "Combi" certification, and ground them completely?


You mean removing the passenger interior as in converting them to full freighters? Why would KL want to do that, especially when looking at the current challenging air cargo market?

A388
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:36 pm

A388 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Thank you, that makes sense.
Which brings the next question -- as these planes were slated for scrapping anyway, does a quick-and-dirty removal of seats/galleys/other passenger-related equipment from the main deck make sense? Or would it somehow affect their legal "Combi" certification, and ground them completely?


You mean removing the passenger interior as in converting them to full freighters? Why would KL want to do that, especially when looking at the current challenging air cargo market?

A388

Those planes are condemned to scrapping, and will be removed from service before the month is out.
Their original retirement dates are later in the year, for some -- in 2021. So they have hours and cycles left.

Air cargo market is under reconfiguration, with massive loss of belly cargo capacity, as we speak. Some shift back towards dedicated freighters is a possibility...

KLM is looking at a massive loss of business, with grounded crews and planes, unused AMS slots, etc., and if there is a chance for these birds to earn a penny, why not?

And yes, just to make it clear, someone more knowledgeable might need to chime in, if full freighter conversion (with recertification) is even feasible at this point. But simply a weight reduction exercise -- with seats and other pax-related fixtures gone -- might make sense.
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:54 pm

Theoretical you could remove (part of) the interior, but not the fwd section(s), because removing a lot of FWD empty weight could cause W&B problems.(especially at the end of the flight, with less fuel on board.
A full P2F conversion makes no sence, planning and actual conversion takes about 9-12 months., if economical feasable.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:17 pm

When used as "freight onlÿ" aircraft the following maximum payloads can be carried by a (KLM) 747combi and a 777-300ER

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER

213.9 =+ (4x 21,39 ) = 229,46

See : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:45 pm

They wont be stored at AMS. No room.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:34 pm

Anyone in MIA are getting a 744 treat. KL685 AMS MEX is redirected/diverted to MIA for reasons unknown. Spotters think fast!
 
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Plane Holland
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:39 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Anyone in MIA are getting a 744 treat. KL685 AMS MEX is redirected/diverted to MIA for reasons unknown. Spotters think fast!


Is it confirmed that this lady is heading for MIA, I read somewhere it is returning to AMS. I think it's still doing circles the size of the country of Portugal
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:43 pm

Plane Holland wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Anyone in MIA are getting a 744 treat. KL685 AMS MEX is redirected/diverted to MIA for reasons unknown. Spotters think fast!


Is it confirmed that this lady is heading for MIA, I read somewhere it is returning to AMS. I think it's still doing circles the size of the country of Portugal


It's listed here: http://webvids.miami-airport.com/webfids/webfids The Queen is coming to Florida
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:04 pm

Maybe visible on this Miami webcam: https://www.miamiairportcam.com/
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:29 pm

ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only
 
Ishrion
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:45 pm

tvh wrote:
ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only


Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/
 
Doberdawg
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The surreal experience of getting back to the US on one of a KLM 747's final flights

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:23 am

Touching story from CNN.com of a flight back to the US on a KLM 747 scheduled for retirement.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/klm- ... index.html
 
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seemyseems
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Re: The surreal experience of getting back to the US on one of a KLM 747's final flights

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:54 am

Thanks for sharing. I will miss seeing these aircraft, my first ever long haul flight was on PH-BFY.
seemyseems in ATL
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:29 pm

Ishrion wrote:
tvh wrote:
ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only


Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/


They could take out the chairs. creating more space for cargo. Ok, there is no cargo floor in the passenger cabin and installing one takes way to long. so no pallet and only a limit weight can be loaded. but boxes with face masks ans stuf like that are not that heavy. Plenty of staf to load them by hand. They can use catering trucks to bring them up because they are currenly not used. At moments like this you have to improvise.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:05 pm

tvh wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
tvh wrote:
ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only


Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/


They could take out the chairs. creating more space for cargo. Ok, there is no cargo floor in the passenger cabin and installing one takes way to long. so no pallet and only a limit weight can be loaded. but boxes with face masks ans stuf like that are not that heavy. Plenty of staf to load them by hand. They can use catering trucks to bring them up because they are currenly not used. At moments like this you have to improvise.


As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.
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tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:35 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
tvh wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/


They could take out the chairs. creating more space for cargo. Ok, there is no cargo floor in the passenger cabin and installing one takes way to long. so no pallet and only a limit weight can be loaded. but boxes with face masks ans stuf like that are not that heavy. Plenty of staf to load them by hand. They can use catering trucks to bring them up because they are currenly not used. At moments like this you have to improvise.


As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.


Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:23 pm

tvh wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
tvh wrote:

They could take out the chairs. creating more space for cargo. Ok, there is no cargo floor in the passenger cabin and installing one takes way to long. so no pallet and only a limit weight can be loaded. but boxes with face masks ans stuf like that are not that heavy. Plenty of staf to load them by hand. They can use catering trucks to bring them up because they are currenly not used. At moments like this you have to improvise.


As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.


Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

Or “seatbags” - basically cargo bags that lock into the same rails that seats are locked into.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
gabep
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:49 pm

tvh wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
tvh wrote:

They could take out the chairs. creating more space for cargo. Ok, there is no cargo floor in the passenger cabin and installing one takes way to long. so no pallet and only a limit weight can be loaded. but boxes with face masks ans stuf like that are not that heavy. Plenty of staf to load them by hand. They can use catering trucks to bring them up because they are currenly not used. At moments like this you have to improvise.


As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.


Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

VirginFlyer wrote:
tvh wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:

As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.


Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

Or “seatbags” - basically cargo bags that lock into the same rails that seats are locked into.

V/F


Unfortunately, it’s just not that simple. There are numerous considerations and an entire certification process that has to take place. Cargo loading, handling, securing loads, crash barriers, fire and smoke suppression and countless other obstacles to service entry. Not to mention the incredible cost and time required to overcome before mentioned obstacles. Believe me, I want the ole gals to stick around, but I’m not convinced there is a case to be made. KLM is better positioned to capture increased cargo demand—even though it’s likely to be temporary—thanks to their dedicated 747 freighter fleet operated by Martinair.

Gabep
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:11 am

Ishrion wrote:
tvh wrote:
ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only


Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/


An Interesting plead, might have some merit in it. I haven't seen an official response from KLM though.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Flanker7
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
tvh wrote:
ex-topmanager of klm says in an open leter klm should keep the 747M as freighters, because there now is such a big need for freighters.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... eft-langer

sorry Dutch only


Here’s the English version of the letter:

https://theloadstar.com/an-open-letter- ... 747-combi/


An Interesting plead, might have some merit in it. I haven't seen an official response from KLM though.


The news we have is that only the 777 and 787 remain operational, the A 330 will be parked, and will be used to fly cargo only if neccessary. I really don't think that after this month we'll see any pax/combi 747 flying.
Flying blue only if possible
 
petertenthije
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:20 pm

The combi 747s have a fixed bulkhead between the passenger cabin and the maindeck cargo hold. It is therefor not simply a matter of removing seats. Unless an item fits through the passenger door, it is not going in the passenger cabin.

Moving the bulkhead would require structural changes. Considering the age, cycles and hours of KLM's 747s that would be too expensive.
Attamottamotta!
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:57 pm

petertenthije wrote:
The combi 747s have a fixed bulkhead between the passenger cabin and the maindeck cargo hold. It is therefor not simply a matter of removing seats. Unless an item fits through the passenger door, it is not going in the passenger cabin.

Moving the bulkhead would require structural changes. Considering the age, cycles and hours of KLM's 747s that would be too expensive.


And take way to long!!
I am only thinking about simple ways to boost cargo capacity for a few months at the most. a box with facemask easy fit through a passenger door. sure it will not be a very efficient to the standard of normal times, but at times like this everything can help.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:48 pm

tvh wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The combi 747s have a fixed bulkhead between the passenger cabin and the maindeck cargo hold. It is therefor not simply a matter of removing seats. Unless an item fits through the passenger door, it is not going in the passenger cabin.

Moving the bulkhead would require structural changes. Considering the age, cycles and hours of KLM's 747s that would be too expensive.


And take way to long!!
I am only thinking about simple ways to boost cargo capacity for a few months at the most. a box with facemask easy fit through a passenger door. sure it will not be a very efficient to the standard of normal times, but at times like this everything can help.


In order to do that its just as easy to use the 777 and 787 as planned for cargo ops. This way you don't have these aircraft sitting idle on the ground.
Flying blue only if possible
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 pm

In the present 747combi 6/7 pallet configuration (with the entire pax cabin and bulkhead installed) , the maindeck + lower cargo holds have 140% more volume than the lower cargo holds of the 777-300ER.
Nothing has to be changed.
The emergengy (medical) supplies are all volume limited.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
marcelh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:57 pm

PH-BFT -a combi- is currently flying to PVG as KL895. Last flight to Shanghai was February 2nd and was a 777 route
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:43 pm

marcelh wrote:
PH-BFT -a combi- is currently flying to PVG as KL895. Last flight to Shanghai was February 2nd and was a 777 route

Apparently she's going out empty* and it's going to get medical supplies back to The Netherlands.

* All female cockpit crew, small cabin crew and a load master.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
marcelh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:19 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
PH-BFT -a combi- is currently flying to PVG as KL895. Last flight to Shanghai was February 2nd and was a 777 route

Apparently she's going out empty* and it's going to get medical supplies back to The Netherlands.

* All female cockpit crew, small cabin crew and a load master.

Good job! :bigthumbsup:
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:56 am

Iemand91 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
PH-BFT -a combi- is currently flying to PVG as KL895. Last flight to Shanghai was February 2nd and was a 777 route

Apparently she's going out empty* and it's going to get medical supplies back to The Netherlands.

* All female cockpit crew, small cabin crew and a load master.


Perfect type of aircraft choice, with a high volumetric payload for the relative light medical supplies.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:12 am

There even was a version that could take 13 pallets
https://veiling.catawiki.nl/catalogus/l ... 0-combi-01
 
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747classic
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:37 am

tvh wrote:
There even was a version that could take 13 pallets
https://veiling.catawiki.nl/catalogus/l ... 0-combi-01


AFAIK no 747-400combi aircraft was ever operated in the 13 pallet configuration.
However early built 747-400combi aircraft were equipped with a strengthend main deck floor structure for a possible 13 pallet configuration.
Later built 747-400combi's had only a strengtend maindeck floor for the 6/7 pallet position (weight saving)
Only a few 747-200 combi's were actual operated in the 12/13 pallet configuration, I operated several of these flights for KLM (e.g. ATL, JFK) in the eighties.
After the SAA 747-200combi "Helderberg" accident in 1987 a halon knock down system was required (1992) for all combi's.
This halon knock down system was only certified for the 6/7 pallet configuration on the 747-200/300 and 747-400 combi aircraft and not for the 12/13 pallet configuration, due high certification costs and only a few interested operators.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:26 am

I'm sure that most of you already found this group on Facebook but for thos who haven't have a look at it. Great videos, photos comments etc worth having a look at. Almost every departing 747 is doing a wing roll and for many cockpit it's their last flight. Lots of videos have ATC comments.

Farewell klm Boeing 747
Flying blue only if possible
 
factsonly
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:40 am

Just to remind everyone that KLM was one of the inventors of the 747Combi, when it commenced combi operations on its standard B747-200B aircraft in the 1970's.

The seven initial B747-200B aircraft PH-BUA to PH-BUG proved too large for the airline in their early years of operation.
KLM solved this problem by introducing main deck cargo in the rear cabin on a few of it B747-200B aircraft, removing the centre seat section and left side seat section.
A long and narrow 3-seater and 2-seater starboard side seating area was maintained and separated from the cargo area by a fixed wall (between doors 14 and 15), creating a long and very narrow rear cabin. Cargo was loaded through the left hand rear door, while the right hand rear door was kept for passenger evacuation. The right hand rear washrooms remained in service.

It was during the operation of these semi-combi P&W powered B747-200Bs, that KLM commenced discussions with Boeing on the launch of a true B747-200Combi and ordered its initial two aircraft PH-BUH and PH-BUI in 1974. At the time of their delivery in 1975 these G&E powered aircraft were the most powerful B747's in the world and had sufficient power to be converted to B747-200BSFSUD with a stretched upperdeck.

Soon after delivery of the true B747-200B Combi aircraft, KLM converted its standard B747-200B back to all passenger aircraft.
 
tvh
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:45 am

Very intresting. Do you have a floorplan / seatmap of that configuration.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:09 am

Factsonly is talking about this:

Image
Image
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 596080475/

I don't think I've ever seen pictures of it though...
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
Flanker7
Posts: 450
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:47 am

I found some photos in the book, The Grand lady classic, unfortunately cannot upload. Can PM one of you I you like,
Flying blue only if possible
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:59 am

Flanker7 wrote:
I found some photos in the book, The Grand lady classic, unfortunately cannot upload. Can PM one of you I you like,

I have that book! :D

There's indeed one small photo of the small cargo area of in that configuration in that book.

When browsing through it, it makes you sad knowing it will be all over within days...
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
Flanker7
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:38 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
I found some photos in the book, The Grand lady classic, unfortunately cannot upload. Can PM one of you I you like,

I have that book! :D

There's indeed one small photo of the small cargo area of in that configuration in that book.

When browsing through it, it makes you sad knowing it will be all over within days...

I know, my wife gets quite emotional thinking about it and everytime she sees a video or photo it brings tears to her eyes. She absolutely loved working on the Grand Lady.
Flying blue only if possible
 
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ryanflyer
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:02 pm

gabep wrote:
tvh wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:

As pointed upthread, these planes are certified as passenger planes (albeit with a cargo section). Removing seats might affect certification. And that's only for seat removal as a weight-saving measure.

If you intend to stuff former passenger section with boxes, how do you intend to secure them? Load shift can be deadly.


Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

VirginFlyer wrote:
tvh wrote:

Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

Or “seatbags” - basically cargo bags that lock into the same rails that seats are locked into.

V/F


Unfortunately, it’s just not that simple. There are numerous considerations and an entire certification process that has to take place. Cargo loading, handling, securing loads, crash barriers, fire and smoke suppression and countless other obstacles to service entry. Not to mention the incredible cost and time required to overcome before mentioned obstacles. Believe me, I want the ole gals to stick around, but I’m not convinced there is a case to be made. KLM is better positioned to capture increased cargo demand—even though it’s likely to be temporary—thanks to their dedicated 747 freighter fleet operated by Martinair.

Gabep



You actually may be wrong... Though I would have assumed you to be 100% correct. It looks like Chine Eastern just removes seats and created an A330 combi... I wonder if other airlines could follow. https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/statu ... 43840?s=20
 
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747classic
Posts: 2897
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:32 pm

@ factsonly

To put the 747combi history in the correct context :

The side cargo door option was designed and certified at a cost of $15 million in 1973/1974 and installed (modification) at two Sabena 747-100's during spring 1974. (L/N92 & 95)

The first factory built 747 (the second 747-200F !) with the optional side cargo door installed was L/N 242 for Seabord World,

The first factory built 747-200 combi with the side cargo door installed was L/N 250 a 747-233B(combi) for Air Canada

L/N 262, 263 and 264, all three 747-2B4Bcombi's for MEA were the second, third and fourth factory built combi's.

L/N 271, KLM 's first 747combi was the fifth factory built combi.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Momo1435
Posts: 1117
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Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:33 pm

ryanflyer wrote:
gabep wrote:
tvh wrote:

Cargo nets. Sure it is that as easy as I put it. But there have been plenty of planes where they take out the seats to carry freight in the night and return them for passengers the next day. Klm must have some people that can think of a way to secure that cargo.

VirginFlyer wrote:
Or “seatbags” - basically cargo bags that lock into the same rails that seats are locked into.

V/F


Unfortunately, it’s just not that simple. There are numerous considerations and an entire certification process that has to take place. Cargo loading, handling, securing loads, crash barriers, fire and smoke suppression and countless other obstacles to service entry. Not to mention the incredible cost and time required to overcome before mentioned obstacles. Believe me, I want the ole gals to stick around, but I’m not convinced there is a case to be made. KLM is better positioned to capture increased cargo demand—even though it’s likely to be temporary—thanks to their dedicated 747 freighter fleet operated by Martinair.

Gabep

You actually may be wrong... Though I would have assumed you to be 100% correct. It looks like Chine Eastern just removes seats and created an A330 combi... I wonder if other airlines could follow. https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/statu ... 43840?s=20

Except that this A330 "Combi" will never operate scheduled flights with paying passengers up front.
 
tvh
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: KL 744 Phase out News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:05 pm

Right, this is basically the idea I proposed for the 74M's. Use the main passenger cabin at least a bit for cargo.

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