Prost
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:20 pm

It's tragic enough that we've lost these souls, and here we are already discrediting Putin AND Obama due to the tragedy. Perhaps we can refrain from this for a few days until more facts are known.
 
wanderlustlax
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 139):
When Russian backed Ukrainian rebels shot down the Malaysian Flight 17, they opened a hornet's nest. If this is a terrorist act, perhaps it will give Putin a slightly altered view of things.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

I also read that Putin has ordered a "full investigation" -- too bad he didn't care about having one for the families of MH17.

Hate to sound insensitive, but the irony here is mind-boggling.
 
Kaiarahi
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 143):

Thanks. It's rare to find any facts on these threads.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
aviationaware
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 150):
The failed Obama administration ??? ... FACTS PLEASE ... comments like that discredit your post ...

Well you just have to look at how relatively stable the middle east was before the Obama/Clinton warmongering with Gadhafi and many others who had control over their countries, and what a wildfire it has become since. They have bombed lesser evils (compared to what you have now) out to be replaced by the devil incarnet and failed states, they have removed strong presence where it was direly needed (ISIS was on the horizon already when Obama pulled out of Iraq), and given better weapons than the US forces have to people they knew nothing about, and now ISIS has those weapons.

Sorry but if that's not a totally failed policy by any measure then I don't know.

[Edited 2015-10-31 08:41:39]
 
p201055r
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:28 pm

A most terrible tragedy, RIP to those who have died and comfort to those now bereft & in mourning.

ISIS? As a terror group (and from how they have behaved in the past), they would claim at least an input into bringing the aircraft down, now wouldn't they? Terror needs an audience to succeed.
I'm sceptical, but until facts emerge & analysis is completed I wouldn't rush to accept any theory.
 
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enilria
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:29 pm

IS claim 'a fabrication'
Posted at 15:26
Russian Transport Minister Maxim Sokolov says the plane could not have been downed by a missile fired by jihadist militants. "Such reports cannot be considered true," he tells the Interfax news agency, according to BBC Monitoring.

"We are in close touch with our colleagues from Egypt and their air traffic authorities, and they have nothing at the moment which could confirm such fabrications," he adds.


http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-34687309
 
LU9092
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:29 pm

To me it sounds like much of the conflicting information coming out in the media is the result of incorrect translation of unofficial comments from Egyptian sources. It might be awhile before the fog lifts and we get a good idea of what might have caused this crash.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 150):
The failed Obama administration ??? ... FACTS PLEASE ... comments like that discredit your post ...

Pretty rich, isn't it? You have to go a long way back in history to find an American administration that *wasn't* giving weapons to some faction or another in that region. And to lay the responsibility for US weapons in ISIS hands solely on the current administration is patently asinine. Don't feed the troll.
 
LU9092
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 154):

Wait, are you a troll, or a satirist? Because your ideological blind spot with regard to very recent history is so over the top that it would be pretty hilarious if you were making fun of the hysterical far-right lunacy so rampant in US culture these days.
 
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flyingturtle
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 143):

It's now a bit more complicated as there also is a *State of Registry* : Ireland.
The states of design / manufacture and the state of the operator will have to liaise with the Irish authorities.

As far as I remember annex 13 of the ICAO treaty, the duties are as follows:
- country where the accident took place: has duty to investigate, but can delegate this to another country, or to the ICAO itself (e.g. MH17 was delegated to The Netherlands, or KAL007, was delegated to the ICAO)
- country where the plane was registered: will have to investigate if the aforesaid country is unable to, is unwilling to, or doesn't exist (e.g. AF447 in international waters)
- country/countries where the plane and its engines were manufactured: have to assist in the investigation
- country that suffered deaths and severe injuries: will be able to observe the investigations

This would set Russia and Ukraine on the same footing, both will have the equal status in this investigation. Egypt will investigate, with assistance from France (manufacturer), Switzerland (engine manufacturer International Aero Engines is registered in Zurich, but is owned by P&W and MTU Friedrichshafen and a couple of Japanese companies).


David

[Edited 2015-10-31 08:40:04]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
aviationaware
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting LU9092 (Reply 157):
You have to go a long way back in history to find an American administration that *wasn't* giving weapons to some faction or another in that region.

True, but I never said the Bush administration or any other for that matter was any better. The fact of the matter remains that the weapons ISIS has now were handed out by the Obama administration, hence it failed. Trying to relativize this massive blunder by putting it next to the failures of other administrations is just ridiculous and a license for any future administration to continue this irresponsible distribution of military equipment.
 
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pvjin
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 154):

If you didn't notice ISIS originates from Iraq, from Iraqi Al Qaeda to be precise. If George W Bush hadn't invaded Iraq, gotten rid of Saddam and then left the country in ruins we simply wouldn't have ISIS. Sure, many of Obama's decisions regarding dealing with this situation haven't been the best, but let's not forget who actually started this mess.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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caoimhin
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 154):
Sorry but if that's not a totally failed policy even by a liberal then I don't know what kinds of drugs you are doing, they totally messed things up and everyone can see it.

Not a productive comment. You can suggest a theory without assuming a political posture.

[Edited 2015-10-31 09:34:39]
 
aviationaware
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 161):
If George W Bush hadn't invaded Iraq, gotten rid of Saddam and then left the country in ruins we simply wouldn't have ISIS.

True again, but this doesn't exonerate Obama - he pulled out and left the field to them, this is the reason why they are strong today. You can't go back forever in history, just like with the Israel-Palestine conflict you have to start somewhere in the fairly recent past to get to a fair starting point, and Obama can't blame all his failures on Bush's previous ones.

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 162):
Not a productive comment--and it is a sentiment that I actually agree with. Still, you can suggest the theory without assuming a political posture.

You are right, that wasn't appropriately phrased, I apologize.

[Edited 2015-10-31 08:42:25]
 
747megatop
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting gkirk (Thread starter):
has gone missing

We have seen time and again what those words "has gone missing" or "lost contact" means. In 99% of the cases the outcome is a crash. Passengers+crew RIP.
 
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Aaron747
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 163):
True again, but this doesn't exonerate Obama - he pulled out and left the field to them, this is the reason why they are strong today. You can't go back forever in history, just like with the Israel-Palestine conflict you have to start somewhere in the fairly recent past to get to a fair starting point, and Obama can't blame all his failures on Bush's previous ones.

Can you just take this malarkey over to Non-Av where it belongs? This thread is about the flight in question, not the geopolitical realm in which someone may have wanted to take it down.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
PanAm1971
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:52 pm

Highly unlikely it was a missile. There is a rough similarity to Pan Am 103. But it could also be an engine issue-and this frame was said to have had engine issues previously. Of course it could have been something else entirely. I am no fan of Putin or Russian foreign policy of the last few years. However, we need to hold off on casting wild accusations without a shred of evidence. There are several commenters on this thread already who will look back and be quite embarrassed by their posts.
 
SeeTheWorld
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 163):
True again, but this doesn't exonerate Obama - he pulled out and left the field to them, this is the reason why they are strong today. You can't go back forever in history, just like with the Israel-Palestine conflict you have to start somewhere in the fairly recent past to get to a fair starting point, and Obama can't blame all his failures on Bush's previous ones.

Seriously, just stop ...
 
AAMDanny
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:53 pm

Not sure how accurate this is but looks like one of the wings, I can't work out if it's upside down looking at the position of the slats

https://twitter.com/een2014/status/660480604123869184?nav=true
 
osiris30
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:55 pm

Hey guys, there's a forum for politics and this ain't it. If someone shot it down that's one thing, but discussing foreign policy of why in any significant detail belongs in the other forum. Sorry but sick and tired of political bickering where the opening argument is a sarcastic insult and then it's followed up by righteous indignation.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
spacecadet
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:55 pm

Political discussions have no place in this thread. This is about an airliner that went down after the pilot reported engine trouble.

It's fine to speculate on the causes, but going beyond that really isn't.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Acheron
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 139):
Quoting wanderlustlax (Reply 152):

Maybe we should adopt the same attitude next time an american airliners is bombed out of the sky seeing how the US shot down an Iranian airliner and even gave medals and citations to the perpetrators.

Pot. Kettle. Black

Sick individuals.
 
longhaul67
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:00 pm

Does anybody have any insight into the security measures at Egyptian airports? How difficult would it be to smuggle a bomb on board a plane?
 
osiris30
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 171):

Quoting milesrich (Reply 139):
Quoting wanderlustlax (Reply 152):

Maybe we should adopt the same attitude next time an american airliners is bombed out of the sky seeing how the US shot down an Iranian airliner and even gave medals and citations to the perpetrators.

Pot. Kettle. Black

Sick individuals.

You must be stuck I a lot of low cloud right now (because of the high horse you're on), but neither of those individuals said anything remotely sick. Your comment is actually more sickening and you're suggesting that in the future it should happen. aka you're actively wishing it. That is pretty sick.

Pot, kettle, indeed!
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
ec99
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:07 pm

Why doesn't someone start a non-av thread where people can bring up their political therories on the route of middle eastern instability going back to the crusades and discuss every act of aggression perpetrated by the US and Russia/USSR since 1945.

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 168):

Not sure how accurate this is but looks like one of the wings, I can't work out if it's upside down looking at the position of the slats

I'm not sure what it means but the wing is more intact than I expected it to be. Makes me wonder if the pilot was fighting with the plane/ maybe he had some control in the way down.

[Edited 2015-10-31 09:08:21]
 
vmf
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:07 pm

What a horrific loss  Given the reliability of the type I wonder what happened...
 
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Aesma
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:08 pm

Hope it's an accident.

RIP to the victims.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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N14AZ
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:08 pm

Moderators, please delete all that stuff, it is extremely annoying and inappropriate: people have died, families are suffering and some members have nothing better to do to "share" their political wisdom? Unbelievable....
 
wanderlustlax
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 171):
Sick individuals.

It's not an America = great and Russia = bad thing, champ. Read what I wrote next time.

Simply saying the way that Putin handled MH17 was atrocious and callous and now that it's happened to his country he's actually concerned about a "legitimate" investigation.

Last time I checked, BTW, America owned up to it's shoot down. Did Russia? I can't remember...

But what do I know...you're the genius here, obviously.
 
DDR
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 160):

The point everyone is trying to make, which you didn't get, is that this thread is not a place for you to air your political views. This thread is about a tragic airliner crash.
 
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Finn350
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:17 pm

Single engine failure should not have caused this. Could it be an uncontained engine failure severely damaging control surfaces? Or structural failure of the hull?
 
joejosh999
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:18 pm

Sincerely hope this is not the Russian version of the AirAsia version of AF447.

Perhaps the old tail strike led to an inflight breakup. They are saying wreckage spread over 6km.

However I also read the pilots complained to maintenance staff about engine problems on this aircraft.

As always, we must wait, and it's a relief that they are able to locate the black boxes.....
 
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VS4ever
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:22 pm

RIP to all those who lost their lives. The only bright spots at this point (which is relative considering the loss of life) is that they have a) located the plane and can start the investigation quickly b) have found the black box already which will also speed the investigation and c) are ultimately able to recover most of the bodies to return to their families quickly.

Those are the pieces to focus on, if we can speculate about what could have potentially happened based on pictures received from the crash site, then that's ok and fair game too, anything else pretty much is irrelevant while we deal with the aftermath of this tragedy and should be left to a much much later time.

Sad day for aviation, the families and the countries involved.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Redd
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:25 pm

 
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Btblue
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:25 pm

Tail section clearly visible with elements detached:

Top
 
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Btblue
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:31 pm

Horizontal stabiliser visible in this picture:

Top
 
joejosh999
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:33 pm

No pictures in those posts
 
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enilria
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 183):
ISIL is now claiming responsibility.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...4-people-on-board-latest-news.html

I already posted way up the thread


16:29
Two major airlines, Lufthansa and Air France, have decided to avoid flying over the Sinai Peninsula until they get a clear explanation of what caused Saturday's crash in the area, Reuters reports.

"We took the decision to avoid the area because the situation and the reasons for the crash were not clear," a Lufthansa spokeswoman is quoted by the news agency as saying.
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-34687309
 
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pvjin
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:34 pm

Another pic here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSqMSk5WEAAFKrj.jpg
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
DDR
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:35 pm

Judging by the photos, I don't understand how anyone thought there might be survivors. Utter destruction. Reports are saying that the bodies of all the children have been recovered. So sad.
 
OV735
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 180):
Single engine failure should not have caused this. Could it be an uncontained engine failure severely damaging control surfaces? Or structural failure of the hull?

It's hard to imagine any kind of wing-mounted engine failure, contained or not, resulting in an inflight breakup (which the reports of a scattered wreckage seem to indicate). Tail-mounted engines could indeed damage hydraulic lines in the fuselage when exploding - UA232 and a number of Tu-154 and Il-62 crashes come to mind - and even in those cases the aircraft stayed intact until surface impact.

Structural failure of the fuselage seems to be more likely in this case, either from fatigue/mishandled pressure vessel repairs or an external factor.
 
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flyingturtle
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:36 pm

One picture of blackened wings can be seen here: http://lifenews.ru/news/167363


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 444
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 188):
Another pic here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSqMSk5WEAAFKrj.jpg

Would anyone else agree the wing seems to be more damaged inboard than towards the tip?
 
CO953
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:39 pm

I follow political/foreign policy stuff pretty closely. If I recall correctly, somewhere around the time of Qaddafi's overthrow, Benghazi, etc., I seem to remember some reports floating around that quite a few American Stinger missiles had fallen into the "wrong" hands during the Libyan turmoil. I never heard much since. Let's hope that this is not where this leads. RIP to the victims.

ETA: Never mind - I just saw that Stingers can't go that high!

[Edited 2015-10-31 09:41:54]
 
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pvjin
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:41 pm

Here's also a pic of the vertical stabilizer:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/k_nmi...aevskiy/76097596/5602/5602_600.jpg

Also the pic of the wing I found earlier:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSqMSk5WEAAFKrj.jpg

Quoting CO953 (Reply 193):

It had to be one interesting stinger missile that shot down this aircraft from 30k feet.

[Edited 2015-10-31 09:42:07]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Spacepope
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting CO953 (Reply 193):
quite a few American Stinger missiles had fallen into the "wrong" hands during the Libyan turmoil. I never heard much since. Let's hope that this is not where this leads. RIP to the victims.

And where exactly would Libya het their hands on American MANPADS? Russian ones like Strela certainly, but not Stinger.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
SeeTheWorld
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:44 pm

Are we certain the pilot reported engine trouble or could this again be just an early inaccurate rumor ...?
 
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readytotaxi
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:46 pm

I am reminded of the Lauda Air 004 in 1991 don't know why it just sprung to mind, different type and so on I know.
Is it possible in this day and age?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2985
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 22):
Terrorist attack in revenge for Russia's actions in Syria?
Quoting Hywel (Reply 25):

We all know how anti-Russian you are, with your wild and exaggerated propaganda in other threads.

Honestly, my first thought was terrorist as well, i'm not sure if you remember the late 70's early 80's or have studied them or not, but Arab terrorists liked nothing more than picking of the odd airliner. With Russia's involvment in Syria now, they have to be a target, sad but true.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 146):

I understand what you are saying, but wrong place for it, start a thread in non-av and I will be happy to debate you.


So the quick pitch up and then dive reminds me of the profile of TWA800, lets give the investigators time to do their work, my only hope is that the pax were unconscious when it hit ground.
 
acabgd
Posts: 228
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 171):
Maybe we should adopt the same attitude next time an american airliners is bombed out of the sky seeing how the US shot down an Iranian airliner and even gave medals and citations to the perpetrators.

Pot. Kettle. Black

Sick individuals.

Couldn't agree more.
As for this case, the most telling is aircraft apparently coming down in separate pieces and abrupt slowdown while still at altitude. Something major caused the breakup, but I still "hope" (for the lack of the better word) that it was the rear bulkhead.
CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
 
kaneporta1
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Kolavia A321 crashes in Sinai / Egypt - Part 1

Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:05 pm

Looking at the pictures of the crash site, the wing is upside down. So one question that needs to be answered is, was the aircraft inverted before it hit the ground?
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers

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