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readytotaxi
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Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:41 pm

Just a quick heads up for those arriving in the UK tomorrow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34693061

Possible divert or delays, that time of year I guess. Keep safe.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
David_itl
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:57 pm

Visibility at LHR has ranged from 50m from 0050 (appropriately!) to 200m until 1050 then steadily increased to 2200 at 1320 but is waning again. Only divs today that I can see were AI161 to CDG and BA246 to GLA.

LGW has been grotty since last night with it being under 1000m since the early hours of the morning apart fom the last hour.

Cancellations and topping on reserves seems to have been the order of the day.
 
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PM
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:16 pm

I'm sitting at Schipol where my flight (to Munich) is just one of many that are an hour or more delayed because of fog.

I have a connection to make to Johannesburg. Or will it be a few beers and sausages in a German hotel?
 
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lollomz
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

Well, it's not a tragedy....  

Lollo
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
planewasted
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:16 am

This is how it looked from a 787 from Austin when we landed yesterday morning.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20189869/20151101_030655.jpg
Looked really cool! Not so cool that my connecting flight to Sweden was delayed by more than 3 hours because of the fog.
 
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Airbus747
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:21 am

Why can't most airliners today with modern navigation equipment (ILS, etc) fly in fog?

I used to think they could...?
 
planewasted
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:31 am

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 5):

Why can't most airliners today with modern navigation equipment (ILS, etc) fly in fog?

According to the pilot on my flight extra separation was needed between aircraft because of the fog. Also ground operations are slower. And since Heathrow is so close to maximum capacity this causes delays and cancellations.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:49 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Just a quick heads up for those arriving in the UK tomorrow.

According to Eurocontrol, also Berlin, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Manchester and Paris are affected by fog.

Quoting Eurocontrol:

Good morning! Fog causing significant #flightdelay London Manchester Paris Amsterdam Frankfurt Berlin
https://www.public.nm.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
RobertNL070
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:02 am

Beautiful sunshine here in The Hague, on the Dutch coast. RTM seems not to be affected by fog. Flights to fog-bound destinations are delayed or cancelled.
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
factsonly
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 5):
Why can't most airliners today with modern navigation equipment (ILS, etc) fly in fog?

I used to think they could...?

Flying in fog is not the issue.

Quoting planewasted (Reply 6):
extra separation was needed between aircraft because of the fog.

Staying safe in close proximity while in the air and on the ground is a much bigger challenge.

At busy hubs, this results in planned cancellations to provide the greater separation required between aircraft while on approach and on the ground.

Just proves that the 'eyeball' still has a significant role to play in day-to-day air transport.
 
N1120A
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:37 am

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 5):

Why can't most airliners today with modern navigation equipment (ILS, etc) fly in fog?

I used to think they could...?

They can fly in it, but they need greater separation. Take a look at SFO to see just how close planes can get when you have clear weather, and you understand why airports go down the tubes when fog rolls in.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 9):
Just proves that the 'eyeball' still has a significant role to play in day-to-day air transport.

And always will.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Airbus747
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:49 am

I see... makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

So in the future we need more advanced TCAS?
 
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moo
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:59 am

I'm hoping this clears up by tomorrow, as I'm flying out to SFO at 10.45am :/
 
TUGMASTER
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:03 am

Just landed this morning from DXB(BA106)
Pilots formed us it was a fully automated landing...saw / felt nothing until touchdown.
Very smooth and quiet approach .
Can't grumble at all... We were nearly half an hour early...!!!!!
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:11 am

Recent LHR arrival ATIS. http://youtu.be/lrID9axfmZM
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
Lofty
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:22 am

LHR was very much prepared for this as on Friday they were saying to BA to cancel 10% of flights for Sunday.

Some of the issues during fog are:
Flow rate reductions as said greater separation.
Slower taxi times. Its fine having A/C that can land its trying to see the taxiway one of the draw backs for the B747 is a flight deck so high up.
Less flexibility eg tugs can't free range and at one point yesterday it was so bad that all uncontrolled taxiway crossings had to be closed.

Diversions were due to some aircraft only have Cat 1 or needing more fuel.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:31 am

We were INSANELY lucky to have made it back home from LGW to CGN last night on EasyJet...even with a 2 hour delay. I'd say about 2/3 of all the flights after 4 pm were completely canx'd. I've got a friend who just landed in LHR from the States and her connection to DUS was canx'd...and they said they could get her out the earliest in two days' time...she's training it home from London.

Those extra runways are really looking more enticing about now, aren't they?
 
CPH-R
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:01 am

Fog in channel, continent cut off...   
 
Speedbirdie
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:03 am

oo its pea soup out there...

*filler*  
Never give up..
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting Speedbirdie (Reply 18):
oo its pea soup out there...

You're telling me...I drove from Swindon to Hampton Court to Hever to Brighton to Gatwick yesterday and about the ONLY time I wasn't driving through 10m visibility fog was in Brighton.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:58 am

Poor AI161 from DEL, just spent 45 minutes going 12 times around the Lambourne stack waiting to get in at LHR.  
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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Btblue
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:41 pm

BA have a 747 up in Glasgow at the moment. I'm. Wondering if it's going to amalgamate the two afternoon BA flights operated by an A321 and 763. Got a mate waiting for his flight and I mentioned this morning he may get a bigger jet if there are cancellations. Fingers crossed.
 
starrymarkb
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:48 pm

It was very thick around Weston Super Mare last night, Suspect it was fun up at BRS* Was clear at EXT so wonder if anything diverted.


*WSM is pretty much on the Centerline of BRS's runway
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting btblue (Reply 21):
BA have a 747 up in Glasgow at the moment.

That's yesterdays BA246. It's positioning back now.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:10 pm

I understand from a number of former colleagues that some (all?) of the BA A320 family fleet is equipped with MLS.

Does that hold true for short haul 767s as well?
 
roseflyer
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting Airbus747 (Reply 11):

I see... makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

So in the future we need more advanced TCAS?

There are requirements for separation between airplanes. When planes are within visual contact of each other, ATC can hand over some of the separation requirement to the pilots and require them to maintain visual separation. This is very important in SFO for example The runways are so close together that there is not enough lateral separation to allow dual instrument approaches. To get full use of multiple runways, they have to be parallel and a half mile apart. Otherwise, there is not enough separation. Instrument landing systems are very accurate, but there is still some risk during the approach. In SFO, if the ceiling is less than 4,000ft, they cannot conduct dual runway visual approaches. The landings have to be staggered which slows it down.

LHR has better separation between the runways, but everything is sequenced so tightly that fog, rain or snow slows down the operation. ATC has to allow for more separation which lowers the landings per hour count and causes these delays.

Ground operations are also an issue. There are planes that can land with almost no visual sight of the ground. Most larger and well established airlines are flying with minimum decision height around 200-500ft. One problem is then taxiing after landing in that weather. It can be very slow and arduous to depend on ground radar when the ground controllers can't see anything.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 24):
I understand from a number of former colleagues that some (all?) of the BA A320 family fleet is equipped with MLS.

Only the A32x fleet.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
Gazdon121
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:40 pm

Does anyone know of there has been any interesting diverts?
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:41 pm

Clear blue sky with slight ground mist now. LVPs cancelled.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
fcogafa
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting Gazdon121 (Reply 27):
Ground operations are also an issue. There are planes that can land with almost no visual sight of the ground. Most larger and well established airlines are flying with minimum decision height around 200-500ft. One problem is then taxiing after landing in that weather. It can be very slow and arduous to depend on ground radar when the ground controllers can't see anything.

One of the main issues is that landed aircraft have to be further off the runway than usual before the next one can land, to avoid ILS beam interruptions, so you need a larger gap between them
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 29):
One of the main issues is that landed aircraft have to be further off the runway than usual before the next one can land, to avoid ILS beam interruptions, so you need a larger gap between them
Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 24):
I understand from a number of former colleagues that some (all?) of the BA A320 family fleet is equipped with MLS.

Most of the BA A320 fleet have MLS. MLS is not affected by beam bend and interference. BA have a deal with the Tower at LHR that they will land a row of MLS A320 close together to increase the runway useage. It gets more BA A320 on the ground, and they overtake the hold to do it  
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 25):
There are planes that can land with almost no visual sight of the ground.

Had two BA A320 land last week at ARN with DH 0. they landed before they saw the runway. We had a cloud base of about 10m!
 
bond007
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 13):
Just landed this morning from DXB(BA106)
Pilots formed us it was a fully automated landing...saw / felt nothing until touchdown.
Very smooth and quiet approach .

Yes, same situation on BA 2166 from TPA to LGW on Sunday morning. Couldn't see anything until touchdown. Taxiing was very slow due to visibility on the ground.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):

Quoting factsonly (Reply 9):
Just proves that the 'eyeball' still has a significant role to play in day-to-day air transport.

And always will.

Unfortunately, if we stuck with the 'eyeball' then nobody would be landing in bad weather. It's only with radar and ILS systems that we can do this today in bad weather. With current technology we could automatically vector aircraft to approach at the same minimums as visual approaches quite easily, and have systems for taxying. It comes down to infrastructure, money, and return on investment ... and of course the time technology takes to get into current designs.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:26 pm

Okay, it's is not looking good for Tuesday morning, again. More fog overnight lingering into mid morning.
Not just the UK, AMS reported lots of problems also. With aircraft and crew out of place due to divertions airlines are going to struggle again, the flight planning ops must be burning the candle at both ends.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34703566

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:10 pm

Aer Lingus using an A330 on one of the evening LHR flights.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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Btblue
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:16 pm

It's been poor here today in Cambridge. An A330 was due in and the departure of the former Air Bridge Cargo 744F was cancelled - the airport was covered by a growing blanket of mist with visibility dropping by the second. It actually looked quite spectacular.
 
Gazdon121
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 33):

that could be THE movement of the evening
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:57 pm

Wackiest divert of the day goes to this BA Embraer 190. Came from AMS .... and then went back again.



[Edited 2015-11-02 10:58:45]
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 36):

Now that's a nice day out for one of us. 
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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winterlight
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RE: Fog Warning For LHR And LGW

Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:02 pm

I think it ended up in RTM after all. Extra Avios all round?
Question everything. Trust no-one.

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