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DocLightning
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UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:36 pm

Saw this happen yesterday. UA 2257 or something IIRC. 8 minute SFO-OAK.

Even if they are picking up a sports team, wouldn't it be cheaper and not terribly more complicated or time-consuming to bring the sports team to SFO than to fly the airplane to OAK?
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ytib
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Even if they are picking up a sports team, wouldn't it be cheaper and not terribly more complicated or time-consuming to bring the sports team to SFO than to fly the airplane to OAK?

Charters are to where the paying customer wants the flight to be from, the drive from OAK to SFO could easily take an hour. You will see many baseball charters to BFI instead of SEA, Kansas City downtown instead of MCI, PIE instead of TPA, and so on.
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deltairlines
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:00 pm

The only surprising thing here is that this plane flew over on Saturday - it appears to be related to the New York Jets charter. Guess UA didn't need that plane on a fall Saturday. (I figure this only because there hasn't been a corresponding 757-300 departing out of OAK since it arrived).

Anyway, it makes 100% sense in this case to ferry the plane to OAK. First of all, it's charged to the client (in this case, the Jets). The Jets game ends around 400p in Oakland today, so they'd be leaving the stadium at 5 pm or so, once they get washed up, do their interviews, etc. From the Oakland stadium, it's a mere five minutes to OAK. It would probably be a good 45 minutes to drive across the bay and get to SFO. Given that they'd be flying to EWR (about a 5.5 hour flight), taking off at 530p gets them in at 2 a.m., which is an extra hour of sleep in their own bed - something that football coaches value highly. Given the amount of money an NFL team has, getting their team home and rested even just a little bit more is worth the cost of the ferry flight from SFO to OAK.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:03 pm

Quoting ytib (Reply 1):
Kansas City downtown instead of MCI

MKC is not an easy airport to operate out of because they don't have sufficient ARFF on site, meaning firefighters have to be called in from a nearby station for the time of arrival/departure. And if *when* the charter flight runs late, you have to keep them in the loop.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
UA 2257 or something IIRC. 8 minute SFO-OAK.

Was it the other direction (OAK-SFO)? UA customer NY Jets are playing the Raiders this week, so that may have been a reposition ferry after completion of the charter flight. Per contracts with the various teams, reposition flights to get the aircraft in position are not allowed to be open booking segments.

Quoting ytib (Reply 1):
Charters are to where the paying customer wants the flight to be from

And the teams have demonstrated that they are willing to pay for the cost of ferrying an airplane into position to get the airport they want, so keep them happy.
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Okcflyer
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:45 pm

I'm more surprised the Jets are taking a 753 transcon. FIgured it would be a wide-body with layflats up front for the coaches / senior players. Aside from player personal gear, I guess the team equipment gets trucked across country since cargo ability is limited on the 753?

D

[Edited 2015-11-01 15:45:36]
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
Per contracts with the various teams, reposition flights to get the aircraft in position are not allowed to be open booking segments.

Why is that?

And what about the post-charter repositioning?
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 5):
Why is that?

And what about the post-charter repositioning?

2 reasons - First, you don't want to risk the inbound flight having a passenger related issue (i.e. medical divert/death) that adds to the potential of not being able to have the aircraft ready for the customer when promised. Second, sports teams prefer to use FBOs instead of the regular passenger terminal where the airline doesn't have it's own support staff to clean/cater the airplane (a charter coordinator will travel with the plane to ensure paperwork delivery, fueling is taken care of, etc). So cleaning and catering is done at the hub (and usually they will tanker in fuel to avoid paying FBO fuel prices as well as avoid any fueling related delays). Charter flights make a lot more money than your average domestic flight, so a premium is placed on them to ensure quality and on time performance.

As for the post charter repositioning - I suppose an airline could make it a live revenue segment (depending on the city pair and if there is demand), but if the aircraft might be needed expeditiously on a more valuable flight, it's better to just go ahead and ferry it out and set it up for that flight rather than clean/cater and reposition the aircraft to the passenger terminal.
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6):
(and usually they will tanker in fuel to avoid paying FBO fuel prices as well as avoid any fueling related delays).

No airline in the world pays FBO fuel prices. There are nationwide fuel networks with preferred pricing (world fuel, etc)
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 2):
Given that they'd be flying to EWR (about a 5.5 hour flight), taking off at 530p gets them in at 2 a.m., which is an extra hour of sleep in their own bed - something that football coaches value highly. Given the amount of money an NFL team has, getting their team home and rested even just a little bit more is worth the cost of the ferry flight from SFO to OAK.

Everything made sense about this post up that point. Given the recent conversion of SFO-EWR to p.s. service with all flat bed 752s, a coach wishing for team rest should have picked a sUA 752 with lie flats (or two of them or a 763 if they need more flat bed seats) - a 753 seems like a poor choice if the purpose of positioning at OAK was to maximize the team's ability to rest.
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:44 am

According to FlightAware N57855 flew LAX->OAK->SFO on Friday, then SFO->OAK on Saturday, is scheduled to fly OAK->SFO today (Sunday Nov 1) and then back into service SFO->BOS tomorrow morning.

Edited to add: When UAL's DC-10 maintenance was at SFO MOC, the post-maintenance DC-10 test flights would perform missed approaches into OAK and (perhaps) depending on the nature of the test also land there. Someone who works at UA may be able to tell us more about ship N57855's adventures this weekend , but the pattern above seems more like flight test related activity than charter activity.

[Edited 2015-11-01 16:56:56]
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910A
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:04 am

United used to have regular scheduled flights operating SFO-OAK. Basically they were positioning flights, after the bitter 1985 strike, UA offered a double miles promotion in an attempt to regain their customers. Those flights operated full between the two airports. Where else would you get 1,000 miles for a 11 mile trip.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 2):
it appears to be related to the New York Jets charter

The Jets flew into SJC on Friday on UA #2232 a 764. As I write this the 764 is repositioning from SJC to OAK #2268.

[Edited 2015-11-01 17:20:01]
 
LittleFokker
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 8):

Everything made sense about this post up that point. Given the recent conversion of SFO-EWR to p.s. service with all flat bed 752s, a coach wishing for team rest should have picked a sUA 752 with lie flats (or two of them or a 763 if they need more flat bed seats) - a 753 seems like a poor choice if the purpose of positioning at OAK was to maximize the team's ability to rest.

Lie flat seats are nice, and they take advantage on the few trips that they upgrade to widebody. But more importantly, I believe it's in the NFLPA contract that no player can occupy the middle seat to account for the fact that these are larger than average people. Throw in coaches, trainers, high level team management, and occasionally family members, and you get close to 100 people traveling. Block out the middle seats and with a 752 PS config, well, you're getting close to capacity. 753 provides more breathing room and capacity flexibility, while being able to take more cargo. That's why every team UA flies chooses the 753 or larger aircraft (and the DirecTV seat monitors are a nice selling point too).
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):

thats not true. Just this year I've taken a 753 IAH-STL and today UA was operating a 764 EWR-MSY with passengers.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 9):
According to FlightAware N57855 flew LAX->OAK->SFO on Friday, then SFO->OAK on Saturday, is scheduled to fly OAK->SFO today (Sunday Nov 1) and then back into service SFO->BOS tomorrow morning.

OK, that is not a sports charter.
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:57 am

There was one time that UA did have a scheduled OAK-SFO off the tail end of some other trip(DEN??) on a weekend, to bring it to the maintenance base. Must have been 1992 or around there.

I remember there was this elderly couple that I met that actually bought tickets on that flight. They were not able to get any tickets out of OAK using miles on AA, and cashed them in for SFO-DFW-OKC or something like that. They had wheelchairs and bags, and didn't want to deal with loading and unloading with the ground transportation. They figured it was a better deal to just buy the UA ticket to connect in SFO.
 
lweber557
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:06 am

I work in the fractional/charter business. If customer wants to fly out of an airport we can operate out of we get them a plane there. Can't tell you how many deadheads we do between FTW-DAL. But its added into their costs. They are paying for convenience .
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Freshside3
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 12):
Lie flat seats are nice, and they take advantage on the few trips that they upgrade to widebody. But more importantly, I believe it's in the NFLPA contract that no player can occupy the middle seat to account for the fact that these are larger than average people.

Which probably can explain why the Seahawks use DL instead of hometown carrier AS.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 17):

Which probably can explain why the Seahawks use DL instead of hometown carrier AS.

I am not privy to the NFLPA contract, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is language stating that charter flights must be done on 757 or larger aircraft. Colleges will use a lot of 737s, but they don't have union protection and athletic departments don't have as deep of pockets. In the past, the Seahawks have used HA (like the Raiders do), as well as team owner Paul Allen's private 757. DL, UA, and AA do the bulk of NFL flying because the charter airlines like Swiftair and Miami Air do not have large enough airplanes (plus it's only up to 10 road trips a year including preseason once a week - easier for the majors to accommodate).
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910A
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:14 am

Here is a fun item regarding NFL travel miles for this season.

2015 NFL Travel Miles (Road games where team travels over 2,000 miles)

1. 49ers: 27,998 (4)
2. Dolphins: 26,452 (2 -- including London) (17,568 miles for 8 road games)
3. Raiders: 26,336 (3)
4. Seahawks: 25,086 (1)
5. Chargers: 24,274 (2)
6. Cardinals: 23,652 (1)
7. Chiefs: 21,640 (1 -- including London) (12,920 miles for 8 road games)
8. Ravens: 20,550 (3)
9. Lions: 20,272 (1-- Includes away game in London)
10. Jets: 19,866 (2 -- Includes away game in London)
11. Jaguars: 19,101 (1 -- including London) (10,537 miles for 8 road games)
12. Cowboys: 17,148 (0)
13. Bengals: 16,062 (2)
14. Broncos: 15,912 (0)
15. Patriots: 15,308 (0)
16. Packers: 15,108 (0)
17. Bills: 14,912 (1 -- Includes away game in London)
18. Rams: 14,738 (0)
19. Vikings: 14,394 (0)
20. Texans: 14,318 (0)
21. Steelers: 13,226 (2)
22. Browns: 12,564 (2)
23. Giants: 12,448 (0)
24. Saints: 11,942 (0)
25. Bears: 11,830 (0)
26. Panthers: 11,660 (1)
27. Buccaneers: 11,288 (0)
28. Falcons: 10,334 (1)
29. Titans: 9,312 (0)
30. Colts: 8,914 (0)
31. Redskins: 7,150 (0)
32. Eagles: 6,818 (0)

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...ravel-most-miles-eagles-the-fewest
 
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csturdiv
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:28 am

God, even the Bears are near the bottom of that list.
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:32 pm

A bit off topic, but I remember talking with a Delta charter rep years ago regarding a Boston Red Sox flight that was here in DFW. A 767-300 was being used. He claimed one of the players (pitcher) had it in his contract that any charter flight over 750 miles would have to be on a wide body aircraft.
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sw733
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
MKC is not an easy airport to operate out of because they don't have sufficient ARFF on site, meaning firefighters have to be called in from a nearby station for the time of arrival/departure. And if *when* the charter flight runs late, you have to keep them in the loop.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of this. I do know that most MLB teams use MKC (including the Royals themselves) because of its relative proximity to Kauffman Stadium (not the closest, but a lot closer than MCI). An exception was the World Series where larger planes were used, so MCI was required.

YEAH ROYALS!

Quoting 910A (Reply 19):
32. Eagles: 6,818 (0)

I guess they give the lowest mileage trips to the teams with the lowest passing yards?

I kid, I kid.
 
us330
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting ytib (Reply 1):
You will see many baseball charters to BFI instead of SEA, Kansas City downtown instead of MCI, PIE instead of TPA, and so on

Teams that come into Dallas to play the Stars and Mavericks use Love Field, while DFW is typically used for Cowboys and Rangers opponents. I say typically because for some reason when the Blue Jays regularly use Love Field instead of DFW.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):
No airline in the world pays FBO fuel prices. There are nationwide fuel networks with preferred pricing (world fuel, etc)

And no airline does. The people on the hook for the charter would pay the costs, it would be worked into the cost of the charter. Yes sports teams do use FBOs for their flights.
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deltairlines
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:55 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 23):
Teams that come into Dallas to play the Stars and Mavericks use Love Field, while DFW is typically used for Cowboys and Rangers opponents. I say typically because for some reason when the Blue Jays regularly use Love Field instead of DFW.

I know one MLB team that flies into DAL (the team stays in downtown Dallas) but flies out of DFW (given it's proximity to the Rangers ballpark). Makes sense - upon arriving team is going to the hotel, when leaving they are going straight from the park.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 22):
Quoting sw733 (Reply 22):
Interesting, I wasn't aware of this. I do know that most MLB teams use MKC (including the Royals themselves) because of its relative proximity to Kauffman Stadium (not the closest, but a lot closer than MCI). An exception was the World Series where larger planes were used, so MCI was required.

Agreed. Pretty much every MLB team uses MKC and I've seen AF1 there as well when Bush #2 was in office.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:18 pm

This thread reminds me of the time I was in the US Navy back in 1968. I needed to get back to San Diego but I was in San Francisco.
It was late at night. At that time Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA) was still operating a B727 'freak flight' from SFO-OAK-San Diego.
I bought a ticket. First stop was OAK. Some pax got off and some new pax got on. I always thought the SFO-OAK leg was one of the shortest in the country.
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gdg9
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting B737900 (Reply 27):
I always thought the SFO-OAK leg was one of the shortest in the country.

11 miles.
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AADC10
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:25 pm

It was probably a maintenance flight. A UA FA told me how she go to sit in the cockpit for an entire SFO-OAK flight as it was for maintenance and there were no passengers. There was some reason they needed the FA but I forgot what it was.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 18):
I am not privy to the NFLPA contract, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is language stating that charter flights must be done on 757 or larger aircraft.

They don't have any contractual language like this, but gauge is usually determined by team/operator when they're in contract talks based on stage length, amount of payload (some teams carry more stuff than others) and pax count.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):
No airline in the world pays FBO fuel prices. There are nationwide fuel networks with preferred pricing (world fuel, etc)

Wrong. FWA's current fuel supplier isn't part of a fuel network - airlines have to pay FBO prices, which are so high that the FWACAA has to rebate airlines for the difference. That will change in January when the new airport-owned FBO opens and the supplier switches to Avfuel, which has their own network and is part of many others.

IIRC, G4 left ORH in part because of a similar FBO fuel price situation.
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
Per contracts with the various teams, reposition flights to get the aircraft in position are not allowed to be open booking segments.

As others have mentioned this is not entirely true. Certain reposition flights are bookable, albeit these are fairly rare. One can book UA 416 on Dec 18, a non-stop TPA-SFO. It is the Friday after a Thursday game the team plays in St Louis. The team uses a UA 753.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting ytib (Reply 1):
Charters are to where the paying customer wants the flight to be from, the drive from OAK to SFO could easily take an hour. You will see many baseball charters to BFI instead of SEA, Kansas City downtown instead of MCI, PIE instead of TPA, and so on.

I believe Indians charters use Burke Lakefront instead of Hopkins...
 
flyXJT
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 7):
Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6) and usually they will tanker in fuel to avoid paying FBO fuel prices as well as avoid any fueling related delays). No airline in the world pays FBO fuel prices. There are nationwide fuel networks with preferred pricing (world fuel, etc)

This is spot on. FBOs (outside of the ma and pop operators) have agreements with many fuel suppliers (Colt, AvFuel, BP, World, etc), as do the airlines. The fuel supplier will send the release to the FBO, and the FBO will charge a pre-negotiated into plane fee. Generally FBOs have a pre-determined commercial into plane rate that is a fraction of the normal retail margin charged to other customers, but still higher than what the airlines will pay into plane at the gate. This is based on the fact that normal airline fueling operations rely totally on volume to be worthwhile. Charging a couple pennies into plane for the one off sports charter isn't worth the liability and risk of having one of your employees pulling a truck up under the wing.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 24):
And no airline does. The people on the hook for the charter would pay the costs, it would be worked into the cost of the charter. Yes sports teams do use FBOs for their flights.

Correct that no airline does, but again, that is mainly due to the fact that no FBO is going to charge full retail to an airline, especially if it is an airport with commercial service.

Many sports teams do use FBOs at the origin station (i.e. home) . It is becoming increasingly prominent for them to use the terminal/gates for arrival at their destination as long as buses can come out to the ramp, the airline has the gate and staff availability to handle it, etc.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 31):
Wrong. FWA's current fuel supplier isn't part of a fuel network - airlines have to pay FBO prices, which are so high that the FWACAA has to rebate airlines for the difference. That will change in January when the new airport-owned FBO opens and the supplier switches to Avfuel, which has their own network and is part of many others.

FWA's situation is unique for a number of ways, but generally speaking, you don't need to be a branded supplier to offer pricing through the fuel agreements.
 
flyXJT
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 33):
I believe Indians charters use Burke Lakefront instead of Hopkins...

The do use Hopkins, all Cleveland teams use Hopkins - but a hand full of visiting teams (NBA, NFL, and MLB) will use BKL, weather permitting

[Edited 2015-11-02 10:37:11]
 
ckfred
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:30 pm

I was looking for the charter out of Denver last night for Green Bay and found that when the Packers played at the 49ers earlier this season, DL ferried a 763 from SFO to SJC, to pick up the team. Presumably, the 763 worked a flight to SFO from one of the hubs, then flew SFO-SJC-GRB, and then was probably ferried to MSP, DTW, or possibly ATL.
 
us330
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 25):
I know one MLB team that flies into DAL (the team stays in downtown Dallas) but flies out of DFW (given it's proximity to the Rangers ballpark). Makes sense - upon arriving team is going to the hotel, when leaving they are going straight from the park.

Makes sense given the lack of decent hotels out there (other than the Sheraton). Still must be a PITA going to and from the Ballpark during a three or four game series, especially after the game.
 
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RE: UA Operates 753 From SFO To OAK

Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting flyxjt (Reply 34):
FWA's situation is unique for a number of ways, but generally speaking, you don't need to be a branded supplier to offer pricing through the fuel agreements.

Part of the reason why FWA has a unique situation is because of the arrangement involved. Although fuel at FWA is currently Phillips 66-branded, Phillips 66 is not the supplier to the FBO (Atlantic Aviation in this case) - a third party owned by the Kelley family of Fort Wayne car dealer fame is. The Kelley family acts as an intermediary between Phillips 66 and the airlines, and because they are the only source of jet fuel/100LL and have no contract fuel agreements, they can charge FWA users far more than other area airports.

When the FWACAA takes over FBO ops from Atlantic in two months, the Kelleys will no longer be involved in FWA's fuel pricing because Avfuel will supply the fuel directly to airlines and pilots (however, the FWACAA will pump it and store it).
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