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jacobin777
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):

....and while EK is running ads in German daily newspapers Advertising reliable air services. Which is cynical considering that strikes are forbidden in the ME and strikers would be deported immediateley.

What's cynical? To me, ostensibly EK is letting the German public know they can fly on EK without having to worry about their purchased ticket and flying on time and getting to their destination. Any smart competitor would take advantage of that.
"Up the Irons!"
 
fraT
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:42 pm

It won't affect anything today.
Let's see what UFO will announce on their press conference now.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:48 pm

All mainline operations for LH seem to be cancelled for tomorrow and I would imagine that most passengers are frantically making alternative arrangements, if they had not already done so before today, so the damage for the airline for this week seems to be done. I would imagine that there will be at least short time repercussions of potential passengers booking away from the airline until things quieten down again.
 
NH203
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting fraT (Reply 46):
Quoting fraT (Reply 46):
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 47):
A lawfull strike has been overturned?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
That DUS ruling should give UFO some incentive to get their act together and not further harm the Company, LH will sue them if they don't agree to Arbitration.

Well, the judge seems to think this is not a lawful strike.

The Lower Labour Court DUS is only competent for the DUS area, so we'll see what the FRA court will decide. The appellate court for the FRA court recently halted the Pilot union's strike, but keep in mind these were all emergency injunctions. The Pilot's union today appealed that dicission to the Federal Constitutional court, arguing the courts reasoning is out of what can be decided in an emergency proceeding and that the court seriously infringes on their constitonal rights. Let's see what will come out of that.

Furthermore LH already sued the Pilot's union for money, so they will likely do the same with the FAs. However, no union can be ordered to pay LH damages in an emergency proceeding, so this case will likely take years and the Federal Constitutional Court will likely have the final say.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:02 pm

A report related to the strike:

"Lufthansa adds freighter flights to counter strike action"

http://www.aircargonews.net/news/air...ghts-to-counter-strike-action.html
 
ec99
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
And still 3x the minimum wage here in Portugal.

It's tough to compete when your competitors can take their pick of who they hire from any of the EU's 28 Member States.

That is the fundamental problem. With EU open skies, LH has to compete against airlines that hire flight crews from Poland, Portugal etc.. who are non-unionized and will happily accept far less than what they pay their flight attendants. AF has the same problem. I don’t know what the solution is but until some solution is found I imagine the labor unrest will continue.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
The crucial item however is the transoition pay between early retirement at 55 and official Pension Age of 65.

I cannot say I fully understood this issue. This stuff is so complicated that I'm guessing something was lost in translation. However, if my understanding of it is correct, this problem seems significant. The US3 have all shed huge pension responsibilities in bankruptcy and it is unlikely any would still be flying if they had not done so. I imagine LH’s competitiveness is going to be constrained if it has pension costs far greater than your competition.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:53 pm

Between the pilots and the FA's, they sure are striking their airline into insolvency...if they want to lose their jobs through their stupidity, so be it.
 
ec99
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 56):
if they want to lose their jobs through their stupidity, so be it.

Maybe a German here could shed some light on this issue but I do not think the German government would let LH fail. I think one of the problems is the unions also believe this and as such are not worried about the health of the company long-term.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 49):

It should motivate UFO to keep fighting and follow the steps the pilots have taken and take the case to the Bundesverfassungsgericht.

  

Quoting ec99 (Reply 55):
That is the fundamental problem. With EU open skies, LH has to compete against airlines that hire flight crews from Poland, Portugal etc.. who are non-unionized and will happily accept far less than what they pay their flight attendants. AF has the same problem. I don’t know what the solution is but until some solution is found I imagine the labor unrest will continue.

This has nothing to do with being just open-skies. Its a fact of life in Europe or large country like the US.

Effects are felt across all industry where you have different regions with different economic variances and accordingly different labor cost. Its a fact in the EU and same in the US differences between states whether your run a factory or service industry.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 56):

Between the pilots and the FA's, they sure are striking their airline into insolvency...if they want to lose their jobs through their stupidity, so be it.

What you dispute employees basic rights to counter aggression by a company?
In democratic societies employees have rights to oppose company actions and are not in servitude regardless of what company forces upon them.
mercure f-wtcc
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 57):

Maybe a German here could shed some light on this issue but I do not think the German government would let LH fail. I think one of the problems is the unions also believe this and as such are not worried about the health of the company long-term.

I've talked with quite a few German friends...some of whom do work for opposing airlines...the issues here are more than their so-called "wages and benefits."

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 58):
What you dispute employees basic rights to counter aggression by a company?
In democratic societies employees have rights to oppose company actions and are not in servitude regardless of what company forces upon them.

By destroying the hand that feeds them? Why not court action? Or mediation? Or actually getting with the times and realizing you can't have it the same way as you used to because the world changes and you have to adapt or be cast aside? At first glance, I had sympathy for the FA's...but after seeing and reading their grievances, that sympathy has evaporated.
 
ec99
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 58):
This has nothing to do with being just open-skies. Its a fact of life in Europe or large country like the US.

Effects are felt across all industry where you have different regions with different economic variances and accordingly different labor cost. Its a fact in the EU and same in the US differences between states whether your run a factory or service industry.

You are correct, this is not about really open skies since almost all the travel in question here is international in nature. Yet, the US3 are much less vulnerable to this problem since they have giant domestic networks due to the geographic size of the USA. On those domestic routes, only American owned airlines can operate and all employees of an American airlines living in USA need American work papers. This type of problem is therefore unlikely to emerge in America in regard to airlines hiring flight attendants for less in cheaper parts of country. The reason being America has national labor relation laws while in the EU each country has its own labor laws. American unions will not allow the airlines to hire FAs from Mississippi and Alabama for 50% of what a NYC based FA get. Unlike in Europe, another airlines can’t respond to this by base a crew in a different country to take advantage of more business friendly labor laws since that would forfeit said airlines ability to fly domestic flights in the USA.



Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):
I've talked with quite a few German friends...some of whom do work for opposing airlines...the issues here are more than their so-called "wages and benefits."

I’m not sure I follow this line of reasoning. What are their complaints about? They may well have more issues than “wages and benefits,” I would certainly be interested in learning about them and didn’t mean to infer that wage and benefits were the only issue. I was only noting that there might be asymmetrical bargaining positions since the unions may feel they have little to lose even if they force LH into some sort of reorganization (I have no idea how this works in Germany).
 
PanHAM
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 54):
"Lufthansa adds freighter flights to counter strike action"

They make up for freight that is usually carried in bellies of passenger flights. Good Thing they have 2 or 3 MD11s idling right now.

Quoting NH203 (Reply 53):
appellate court for the FRA court recently halted the Pilot union's strike, but keep in mind these were all emergency injunctions

The matter is not at the Frankfurt court that ruled against the pilots but in the Labor court of Darmstadt, south of FRA, due to the seat of UFO, FRA Labor court is not in Charge. Different judges may have a different opinion. But....

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 56):
they want to lose their jobs through their stupidity, so be it.

They are on a good way to succeed with that.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):

I've talked with quite a few German friends...some of whom do work for opposing airlines...the issues here are more than their so-called "wages and benefits."

If it was for wages and benefits it would have been settled years ago.But they want to influence Company strategy and that makes the strikes illegal. In Germany, we have "Mitbestimmung". Employees can vote 10 members into the supervisory board of PLCs and that is where strategy is discussed. Both UFO and VC have at least 4 seats in These boards. Both UFO and VC want to eat the cake and Keep it. But you cannot have votes in the board and strike against the decisions of the board.
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readytotaxi
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 61):
Both UFO and VC have at least 4 seats in These boards. Both UFO and VC want to eat the cake and Keep it. But you cannot have votes in the board and strike against the decisions of the board.

Thank you for that insight.  
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NH203
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 61):
The matter is not at the Frankfurt court that ruled against the pilots but in the Labor court of Darmstadt, south of FRA, due to the seat of UFO, FRA Labor court is not in Charge. Different judges may have a different opinion. But....

True, but the Appellate Court ("Hessisches Landesarbeitsgericht") is the same for both the FRA and Darmstadt Labour Court of first instance, and IIRC that was the one that ruled against the Pilots. Of course, it could be that a different chamber is in charge.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:21 pm

Crazy thing is these strikes have cost LH many times over the savings it sought to achieve. Per FT.com story, the losses which LH accountants have attributed to the strikes so far exceed over 20-years worth of savings the company had hope to achieve plus obviously indirect cost of terrible public opinion.

Frankly it seems to me as the LH management here is too stubborn for its own good by cutting off its nose to spite the face by repeating a needlessly self-destructive reaction to a problem. Its burning tons euros when its trying to save mere cents.

Obviously company has inflamed a very big nerve in its workers. I'm not sure its worth the cost anymore to battle over those cents by continued stubborn stance.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
Article today in FAZ, in German only, showing the Basic salary with add ons . According to that the starting salary for a LH FA is € 2650 per month and the end salary for a cabin chief /Purser/rette is € 7150,00 which is not too bad considering what is earned in Germany
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
The figures in the FAZ articloe are real

I'd wish I knew where they got this from???

I've been employed by the LH company group since 1998 and transferred to LH mainline in 2004 at which point my salary was demoted to starting levels because the company subsidiary I was employed with from 1998 until 2004 had a different labor agreement and contract. I kept my company seniority (dismissal protection, pension, ID travel benefits and seniority) but lost my pay level.

So when it comes to that I've been employed by LH since 2004. I'm in my 12th year flying for LH mainline.

I have a part time contract. 91,8% which basically means a one month leave or exemption from work in addition to 39 days of payed vacation. Beside that I've been on a semi-permanent loan to the trainings department for the past 4 years. In that case I divide my monthly hours between flying and teaching.

I'm single and have no kids so I pay quite an amount of taxes. So after 11 years of flying making 91,8% of the actual salary a full time flight attendant would make, with an additional function in flight attendant training in October 2015 I made € 2333,90 after taxes, plus roughly € 300,- in per diem! That's not that great! It's okay! I'm not complaining! But it's hardly what the public might think a 10 year LH flight attendant would make if they consider these figures by the FAZ to be correct!!!

By way of comparison my gross pay (before taxes) in October 2015 was € 3377,60.

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2015-11-10 15:05:29]
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
And still 3x the minimum wage here in Portugal.

It's tough to compete when your competitors can take their pick of who they hire from any of the EU's 28 Member States.

True! But what's the solution??? The majority of LH FA's are based in Germany and have to afford a living in Germany now and after retirement! Obviously cost of living in Germany is significantly higher than the cost of living in Portugal. So it's comparing apples with bananas!

There lies the problem! LH, AF, BA... have to compete with airlines from other European countries and other parts of the world with significantly lower labor costs that are at the same time (often) highly subsidized (ME3 for instance)... that's what comes with globalization!

Not good in my opinion! I personally would never, ever set foot on a ME3 plane! They'll never earn a cent from me! Simply because it isn't fair competition! I'm all in favor of competition, as long as it is fair! I'd fly on BA or AF, DL or AA... but never on one of the ME3... not as a European who has to afford a living here!

It's politics, it's corporate greed and personal greed... and a catch 22 until every western legacy airline is forcibly supplented from the market! That's the grim reality! It'll get worse... and once the western airlines are gone it's time for other western corporations!!!

Now all of you EK, QR, EY lovers... just wait until it's your company that can't compete with cheap foreign labor or significantly lower opearting costs any longer... the day will come, sooner or later!
 
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ua900
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 65):
I made € 2333,90 after taxes

And that's still too much for LH mgmt. Your EW colleagues must earn even less, else how to compete with FR's race to the bottom? Can't do it on service and quality in their minds. No more free candy bars or playing cards will help transform LH into a 5* airline. Not.


Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):
I've talked with quite a few German friends...some of whom do work for opposing airlines...the issues here are more than their so-called "wages and benefits."

Yup, the only real issue here is EW. Which they can't strike on legally.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 64):
Frankly it seems to me as the LH management here is too stubborn for its own good by cutting off its nose to spite the face by repeating a needlessly self-destructive reaction to a problem. Its burning tons euros when its trying to save mere cents.

Yup, staying the course. Both sides have a lot to gain by listening to each other's ideas.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 61):
In Germany, we have "Mitbestimmung".

The unions evidently don't feel that they have "Mitbestimmung", more like "Ueberstimmung" on the part of mgmt. Union board seats don't matter much to the unions if they can't prevent EW from happening. There's a fundamental difference of opinion on EW being a good decision for the company and employees. A lot of employees feel that they are already getting shafted and EW is making things worse. They'd rather try to go the 5* route than joining the race to the bottom. As a customer, I don't blame them because I still see so many of them giving 100% customer service day in day out. Remarkable given that many of them have already been outsourced and have passed through a number of restructuring schemes over the years, often simply by transferring people to yet another holding company in order to further erode their position.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
And still 3x the minimum wage here in Portugal. It's tough to compete when your competitors can take their pick of who they hire from any of the EU's 28 Member States.

If wages were the main issue then TP or LO should be doing much better than they are. Living in FRA or MUC on Portuguese or Polish wages doesn't work. Much the same way that being a F/A for UA at SFO is much tougher than IAH and virtually impossible for someone living in the U.S. but flying for AV or AM wages. Airline workers are not the reason for the high cost of living at a given duty station. Many are scraping by as it is, the last thing they need is a 40% wage cut through EW. The answer can't always be EW type wages, the other part of the equation is creating customer value through better services and products.
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 67):
EW colleagues must earn even less, else how to compete with FR's race to the bottom?

Since I'm not familiar with FA wages, I may be mistaken. However I was given a French magazine in which there was report about the "life" of a FA at FR. Basically she said she was only paid for the hours and minutes between the moments where the aircraft wheels left the ground and touched down again. Thus all the work before and after the actual flight were for free. Is that real? If so, it's really difficult to compete against such practice if yours are different in a better way.
 
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ua900
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 68):
Basically she said she was only paid for the hours and minutes between the moments where the aircraft wheels left the ground and touched down again. Thus all the work before and after the actual flight were for free. Is that real? If so, it's really difficult to compete against such practice if yours are different in a better way.

Yes, that's real and fairly universal, i.e. AC and UA F/As are paid that way as well. A lot of sitting around at or near the airport for the first half of your career. You're guaranteed a certain amount of hours but it's not a life a luxury. And, since you're joining at the bottom of seniority, ready reserve means you can't always take advantage of close to free worldwide travel since you're travelling standby and need to be able to return to your home base fairly quickly. Imagine getting hired into SFO or YYZ on $20k a year and trying to make it. People sign on for the promise of smoother sailing when they get older, pick up seniority, start holding a line, become fully vested.

And along comes a carrier from some country with much lower cost of living, no working tax collection system and lower wages, and all of a sudden mgmt. decides you should make *that* local wage instead of the wage you need to live at your home base. It wouldn't work for UA at SFO, and it doesn't work for LH at FRA or MUC. Because in FRA, MUC or SFO, you could hardly live on €1,000-€1,400 per month after tax in your first year. At those rates you'll need to consume all your food and beverages outside of tap water aboard while working a flight  

LH has always said how they want to be a 5* carrier, a better way to compete. Anyone who flies LH these days doesn't want to switch to FR or 4U or EW or DE, so why dilute the mainline brand even more by continuously expanding EW? Have people pay for quality, fly more A319s from FRA to TXL instead of almost exclusively A321s, but then make the product more attractive by improving service and getting rid of EU Business Class. Worked well for LH's friends at TK. Nicer EU C cabin product than LH and great service in Y. In Canada, even Rouge got that message when they moved to 2-2-2 on their 767s.
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
 
NH203
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:20 am

The Darmstadt Labour Court has denied LH's request for an emergency injunction. The strike may go forward at the FRA and MUC bases until Friday (the announced end of the strike). The Court ruled, the demands of the union are reasonably clear. (which was the point the DUS Court took issue with).

[Edited 2015-11-10 20:20:52]
 
dc10lover
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:34 am

If they only retire the A340's and fly twins. This will help.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Unflug
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 65):
Best regards

L1011Lover

Thanks for that open post. If I compare that to my industry (IT) you get more than a technician and less than a software engineer, but employees in my industry can only dream of 39 days paid vacation...

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 59):
By destroying the hand that feeds them? Why not court action? Or mediation? Or actually getting with the times and realizing you can't have it the same way as you used to because the world changes and you have to adapt or be cast aside?

Good question. I think for some reason very specific characters have been succeeding in the unions. These guys sell their concept of

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 61):
...eat the cake and Keep it

for their own personnel advantage (that is, to keep the position as union leader), in my opinion.
 
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LTU330
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:11 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
And still 3x the minimum wage here in Portugal.

........and that is the problem. Ryanair etc take Cabin Crew and Pilots from all over Europe, and do not care about these people with regards to how they can afford to get by. With LH we are talking about trying to change the conditions of people who are expecting to get the pay and conditions they already signed up for, and therefore have expenses related to what they expect to get paid. ua900 mentioned the cost of living in FRA and MUC. These are good examples. To rent a one bedroom apartment in Erding near MUC now is going to cost at least €600 per month. You simply cannot compare Portugal to Germany. The next thing; why on earth are the Portuguese prepared to accept a minimum wage of just over €3 per hour when in Germany it is €8.50 and the U.K. €9.10 ? I can see why we have so many Portuguese people working on the Aircraft Cleaning teams in MUC now, but always accepting what the Companies want is what is destroying this industry at the moment. Yes, it's very hard to compete against the ME3, Ryanair, Norwegian and Vueling etc, but it is not the fault of the workers. It is the fault of Governments that signed up to the EU open skies without realising that their own Legacy carriers would be massively disadvantaged with regards to cost structures.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 65):
I'm single and have no kids so I pay quite an amount of taxes. So after 11 years of flying making 91,8% of the actual salary a full time flight attendant would make, with an additional function in flight attendant training in October 2015 I made € 2333,90 after taxes, plus roughly € 300,- in per diem! That's not that great! It's okay! I'm not complaining! But it's hardly what the public might think a 10 year LH flight attendant would make if they consider these figures by the FAZ to be correct!!!

That is not much for highly skilled safety and service specialists.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 64):
Crazy thing is these strikes have cost LH many times over the savings it sought to achieve. Per FT.com story, the losses

That would be true if it was only for Money. But the constantt subsidy of the early retirement plan due to the low interest rates and the ignorance of UFO and VC to accept the reality will kill LH in the Long run. Most companies that have such plans in their System and the life insurers have changed the retirement plans so that the interest risk is on the beneficiaries side. Only two small unions resist reality. If LH Caves in on that issue the Company will not survive in the Long run.

It is not only that the liabilities towards the employees will influence the debt equity Ratio negatively,. Due to that effect the interest rates paid for new or prolonged loans will increase and add to costs. Management has no choice here. That is not stubborn, it is essential. Otherwise the unions would run LH without taking responsibility. That is their ultimate dream,
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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LTU330
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 74):

......I Agree, but it is more than many of our Aircraft Mechanics with three year apprenticeships and ATA 104 Level 3 Type courses earn. Like I said previously, this whole industry is becoming de-skilled. You can get a better hourly rate at Lidl or Penny, and without wanting to sound disrespectful to their workers, I firmly believe that a qualified Aircraft Mechanic or Crew member, should be earning more than a checkout counter attendant or shelf stacker that requires no formal qualification whatsoever. Unfortunately, the German Airlines (just like in the UK etc) have to compete with other European Airlines that employ their staff at less than the local minimum wage, so Norwegian and Vueling etc can operate out of MUC to other European destinations at a fraction of the cost of the Legacies, who already had their staff employed locally before this mess started. It mostly affects the Airline industry, as someone who works in a shop will not commute large distances for €8.50 an hour, but with Airlines flying W routes through these money making airports they get to employ people on €3.50 an hour from other countries, who then end up back at home every night.

Just my opinion of course, but these are really worrying times in Germany for LH colleagues and more so for my own company who are struggling every day to stay alive.
 
Unflug
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:39 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 73):
With LH we are talking about trying to change the conditions of people who are expecting to get the pay and conditions they already signed up for, and therefore have expenses related to what they expect to get paid.

This is not true. The controversy is about NEW contracts.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 74):
That is not much for highly skilled safety and service specialists.

In relation to the duration of the education it is not that bad either.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 65):
I'm not complaining! But it's hardly what the public might think a 10 year LH flight attendant would make if they consider these figures by the FAZ to be correct!!!

I'm not sure about any contradiction: if the FAZ numbers are correct you are 60% above entry salary after 10 years - doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
 
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LTU330
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:49 am

Unflug: the point I am trying to make is that the industry becomes de-skilled. We have different contracts here, and it does not sit right with me that two people doing exactly the same job in the same company can earn different wages. Not only that, companies can serve 90 days termination of contract when they are in trouble and then re- employ people on new contracts. This could easily happen at LH if they start to lose money.
 
DABZF
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 65):
I have a part time contract. 91,8% which basically means a one month leave or exemption from work in addition to 39 days of payed vacation. Beside that I've been on a semi-permanent loan to the trainings department for the past 4 years. In that case I divide my monthly hours between flying and teaching.

I'm single and have no kids so I pay quite an amount of taxes. So after 11 years of flying making 91,8% of the actual salary a full time flight attendant would make, with an additional function in flight attendant training in October 2015 I made € 2333,90 after taxes, plus roughly € 300,- in per diem! That's not that great! It's okay! I'm not complaining! But it's hardly what the public might think a 10 year LH flight attendant would make if they consider these figures by the FAZ to be correct!!!

To put it into perspective... I have very similar history working for LH. I'm non-crew in a country where cost of living is considerably higher than in Germany. I work 100%-time yet my salary after taxes is practically same as yours.
My monthly working hours are roughly 160 hours when LH/FA does max 87 hours! And yes, if I go on duty trip my time outside of working hours is not considered to be working time.

My pension, if I ever get to it, will be ~55% of my salary at the age of 66 (earliest possible retirement) and ~65% at the official retirement age of 69 (our new national pension scheme from 2017)! LH/FA can retire at 57 and get more pension (in %) than me at 66. To me LH is not paying any additional pension it is all according to national pension scheme...

Am I complaining or on a strike? No, I'm happy that in these times I still have a job in the industry that I love!
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
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LTU330
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:06 am

DABZF: Your personal circumstances must dictate that you can afford to live on the wage you earn despite the higher cost of living. Your profile shows a Germany flag, but maybe you live now in Switzerland or similar as Germany is not a cheap place to live, especially around an airport like MUC or FRA. I also make a good wage, but I have been in this industry for 33 years now. I am in as high a position as I can achieve in my current Airline, and despite already working more than 400 hours overtime this year, I could earn more in other countries for performing the same level of job without having to make the overtime. I make this overtime not for the personal benefits, but to help the company, as did many others. I do not want to relocate to earn more money. I also love my job, although maybe not as much as previously due to the current circumstances, but the fact remains, you cannot compare what LH employees earn to what you earn. You choose to accept your conditions. LH staff know that as time goes by and the new contract people become the majority, there is absolutely the potential that LH can go through the courts to annul their contracts on the grounds of financial difficulties and then offer new terms and conditions, and once again this comes around solely because Governments created a free EU employment state that cannot protect the individuals of the countries that have traditionally been prosperous like Germany. Instead of the first world countries prospering now, the rates of pay drop to a lower level which in the end means that even highly skilled people will only get the same money as those with no qualifications. Of course it will only get worse now due to other factors in Europe at the moment. If you don't believe me, look at what happened in the UK with regards to the road haulage businesses. British people could no longer afford to pay for their houses because the rates of pay became so much lower with the influx of EU workers from countries with much lower cost of living standards. The companies will always take the cheapest option. They only consider there employees as numbers nowadays.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 69):

Thanks.

This is quite an interesting thread.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 80):
They only consider there employees as numbers nowadays.

The same way that most airlines view pax as nothing but an open wallet.
 
Unflug
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 78):
Unflug: the point I am trying to make is that the industry becomes de-skilled. We have different contracts here, and it does not sit right with me that two people doing exactly the same job in the same company can earn different wages.

I think it should be perfectly acceptable that someone signing a contract today may have different salary or (more important) pension schemes than someone who signed 10 or more years ago. If the employees (or better the unions) can't accept that, they will certainly succeed in guaranteeing that everyone will be earning the same a couple of years from now. Unfortunately the common number will be exactly zero.
 
offloaded
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 67):
If wages were the main issue then TP or LO should be doing much better than they are

I mentioned what minimum wage was for information only, there are plenty of people earning far more than that, and whilst I don't know exactly what salaries TP staff are on, I'm very sure it's 2 or 3x the minimum wage. I do remember going back years to the Qualiflyer Group (TP/SR/SN) days, SR pilots were insisting out of solidarity that their counterparts at TP were paid the same, despite being from a poorer country and all, yet were surprised to learn that TP pilots were earning more than them!

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 73):
The next thing; why on earth are the Portuguese prepared to accept a minimum wage of just over €3 per hour when in Germany it is €8.50 and the U.K. €9.10

Why would Germans only accept €8.50 an hour if the UK is €9.10? There's going to be hoards of Germans coming over taking British jobs for 60c and hour more! I'm joking or course, but what do you mean, why are they prepared to accept it? It's the way it is. Why does half of Africa live on $1 a day? Or Chinese work for 50c / hr? Wealth generation and raising living standards takes decades, and Portugal, via EEC/EC/EU funds has already been given a massive boost towards that, but if Germany wants to donate a lot of billions more so that everyone here can be on €8.50 an hour, sure, get your chequebook out.

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 80):

Welcome to the EU of 2015. So are you implying that it's German politicians and big business that are fanatical about the EU, but ordinary Germans not so much? And if you think it's fun now, wait until Montenegro, Serbia, Albania, Ukraine and Turkey join the party.... Of course by then our Dear Leaders in Brussels, Berlin, and London will be long pensioned off, but.....
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 77):
I'm not sure about any contradiction: if the FAZ numbers are correct you are 60% above entry salary after 10 years - doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

The contradiction is that starting salary isn't anywhere near € 2650,-

They're not even clear as to what the € 2650,- are? Is it gross pay or after taxes? Well let me asure you that no LH flight attendant will make € 2650,- as a starting salary after taxes and even as gross pay it seems a little high!

Even before 2005 when LH came out with new contracts for new-hire flight attendants the starting salary was at € 1683,67 plus 16,3% tax free shift allowance, plus per diem. After July 1, 2005 that starting salary was reduced to € 1433,23, plus 16,3% tax free shift allowance, plus per diem. Then it was slightly raised after a few years, during long negotiations. I don't know the current starting salary, but it's definitely nowhere near what it was before July 1, 2005! (Per diem by the way can't be included into the actual pay. On some trips you might not need your per diem while on other trips to expensive destinations you might even need more than what you actually get to cover your expenses for food, tips etc.!)

That base pay covers 70 flight hours! Anything over 70 flight hours will get additional hourly pay. But LH is very restricted on hours. FA's can't fly unlimited flight hours. The average is 78 and LH is very keen on making sure no FA has too much overtime! Usually when you get to a point at which you have more hours than average they'll make FA's dead head on flights with lighter loads! In general outside the peak season you'll hardly find anyone flying more than 80 hours.

Before July 1, 2005 a LH flight attendant reached €2616,95 after 9 years of service. The top out was €3539,34 after 17 years.

Again, I'm not complaining. Not at all! I think the salary is okay per German standards. It might be even more than what other people might get. And I was usually very happy with it! The free time also gave me the opportunity to work other jobs. So I make quite good money! However it's hardly as good as the public might think and some people make others believe! LH FA's are definitely not overpaid!

Quoting Unflug (Reply 72):
Thanks for that open post. If I compare that to my industry (IT) you get more than a technician and less than a software engineer, but employees in my industry can only dream of 39 days paid vacation...

Keep in mind we need 7 days if we'd like a week of vacation! Since our operation is 24/7! So in fact we don't have more vacation days than people in other jobs where they usually take 5 days because they're off saturday and sunday
anyway!

Anyhow, I'm currently very torn! I understand both sides and it won't be easy! I'm just glad I'm currently on vacation and don't have to make a decision wether being loyal to the union and go on strike or be loyal to the company and customers and go to work! It's really sad that it has come that far and a solution dosn't seem anywhere near 

Best regards
L1011Lover
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting DABZF (Reply 79):
when LH/FA does max 87 hours

flight hours that is! Not working hours! We don't work 160 hours true! But definitely more than 87! Even if we fly as little as 70 hours (which is off blocks to on blocks) !
 
airevents
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:21 pm

Being one of the affected flight attendants myself, let me add (to put things in perspective a bit and explain how it works) that getting your flight hours together can take a long time. If you fly FRA-HAJ-FRA-HAM you can easily spend your whole day on the plane or at the airport (if you have a longer transit time in between which can happen). Still, at the end of the day, you only have three flight hours in the bank. So in terms of working hours, it is really not (always) comparable to a job on the ground. Plus, as my colleague said, the amount of vacation days may sound luxurious but we work weekends and holidays, so you would have to deduct quite a bit to compare it to office jobs where you have the weekend off automatically, don´t work on bank holidays and public holidays etc.
 
boysteve
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:28 pm

So what are the chances that I will fly by booked MAN-FRA-PVG on Friday 13th Nov? About 3pm today (Wednesday 11th Nov) they cancelled the same flight for Thursday 12th Nov. Does this mean that if my flight 24 hours later is cancelled I will find out at 3pm Thursday 12th Nov?
 
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:31 am

It isn't just costs. LH has not been allowed to expand where they can be profitable. The curfews and lack of FRA and MUC expansion reduced LH's competitiveness which forced growth at competition. Keeping a business from growing is the same as pushing growth to the competition.

Look at the old flight times India to Germany and the post curfew times. Who wouldn't want a stop at the ME3 when that is the choice for EU or US connections.

Lightsaber
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FRAEDDF
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 88):

Doesn't look good, I would say. Given the escalation between the union and LH-management this week, I would expect the strike to continue through Friday. LH's CEO Spohr made it clear once more in a speech yesterday, that management will not back down. "There is strong resistance against change at LH", he said. But they would have to change, "because the world (of aviation) has changed".
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:40 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...l-shows-spohr-digging-in-for-fight

interesting article about the strategic considerations behind LH's hard stance.

Basically, they have to win this one, or they are going to find it impossible to earn enough money to even pay for all outstanding commitments, let alone make some money next decade.
They have been trying to change it for years in a soft way, backing down each time when strikes were called, but they find they can no longer avoid it.
Low fuel prices are providing them with the financial reserve and momentum to ride it out, similar to how BA (IAG) cracked down on legacy working conditions in 2010 and has been an example ever since.
Shareholders like the hard stance, pushing share price up by double digit percentage figures meanwhile.

Sounds to me like LH is not going to give in, even if unions keep striking for the rest of the month.
Somehow, if the financial long term outlook is indeed as they say it is, they have no choice and from the comments above I notice a lot of frustration with the all too open aviation market in Europe which is allowing unfair competition, rather than arguments to show the math of LH doesn't add up, but its not like LH can change the laws of the EU, can it?

[Edited 2015-11-11 23:42:01]

[Edited 2015-11-11 23:43:02]
 
Unflug
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 85):
They're not even clear as to what the € 2650,- are? Is it gross pay or after taxes? Well let me asure you that no LH flight attendant will make € 2650,- as a starting salary after taxes and even as gross pay it seems a little high!

Look at the notes on the left of the diagram. Their numbers are gross and before taxes and social insurance, your are talking about net. I think their numbers are as correct as yours...

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 91):
interesting article about the strategic considerations behind LH's hard stance.

Indeed, interesting.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:57 am

This clearly shows that the unions can not back down. It is all or nothing for the workers. The different unions should be starting to co-ordinate their actions. So that you have week 1 FA - week 2 pilots - week 3 ground personal and then start again. That way they would save their funds and could shut down LH for months.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:04 am

That bwould be suicide for LH and it's employees. The FAs are already Shooting themselves into the knee. They will gain Little out of this and even if they Claim that they have won, it would by a Pyrrhus victory.

LH has to change, there is no choice, there are no options. Even the Status quo will ultimately lead to losing more and more market share to the low costs in Europe and the ME3 on the Long range. It will mean less Jobs for the core Airline and I am sure that many employees know that.

If UFO and the others want to act fresponsible thwy should go into Arbitration an´d accept that strategy and manegement decisions cannot be a subject in arbitration. The unions themselves have sacrificed that on the altar of Mitbestimmung.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 93):
This clearly shows that the unions can not back down. It is all or nothing for the workers. The different unions should be starting to co-ordinate their actions. So that you have week 1 FA - week 2 pilots - week 3 ground personal and then start again. That way they would save their funds and could shut down LH for months.

Then they would strike LH into the ground...and lose their jobs...and find that the public has zero sympathy for them.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 95):
Then they would strike LH into the ground...and lose their jobs...and find that the public has zero sympathy for them.

But it would end faster one way or the other. The current situation is much more damaging to LH.
 
Unflug
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 93):
This clearly shows that the unions can not back down. It is all or nothing for the workers. The different unions should be starting to co-ordinate their actions. So that you have week 1 FA - week 2 pilots - week 3 ground personal and then start again. That way they would save their funds and could shut down LH for months.

To gain what exactly? Is it an achievement in itself to shut down a company?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 96):
But it would end faster one way or the other. The current situation is much more damaging to LH.

Going bankrupt faster would be less damaging???
 
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seahawk
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 97):

Going bankrupt faster would be less damaging???

If they do reach an agreement, it is better to get to that point faster, as it means the management can start to restructure the company. (for example grow Eurowings or Austrian to fly LH mainline missions) If this fight drags on for months with traveller always having to fear a strike, people will learn to avoid LH and the image or reliability and safety will take a serious hit.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Next Lufthansa-Strike Looming

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 96):
But it would end faster one way or the other.

I hope you're just kidding.
Something has to change at LH, because one has to be completely blind not to see the airline can not compete on price in the long run.
Okay, there's the idea you don't need to compete on price because you'll offer a better service!
Let me tell you something: staff at other airlines doesn't kick or yell at their passengers, nor do they throw their food at them, you know?
And sure, many people like a bit of the efficient German touch, but they aren't willing to pay hundreds of euro more for it either.
So even those who do not look for the lowest possible price aren't willing to pay whatever it takes for the right to fly LH either.
Alternatively, it would be nice if they could simply lock out competitors, but that just aint going to happen, so the only other option is to become more like them
Sure, it's going to hurt, and it will involve letting go of perks and future benefits, but the alternative is even worse you know?
Let's face it: LH is where BA was 10 years ago: you can either do as they did, or you can become a second AZ, AF etc etc.
At present it looks like the unions are opting for the second category just to safeguard their short term benefits.
I'd rather opt for the first alternative: let's be honnest for a second: staff at BA for instance aren't poorly paid, nor will you under the new plan.
What will be gone are the days where a normal flight attendant's job at LH basically means a ticket to an extremely comfortable living standard, otherwise only attainable by people who have at least a Ph.D. and a lot of experience.
I understand it's painful to say goodby to all of that, but flight attendants at most other airlines have long kissed goodbye to the illusion they are 'ambassadors', 'flying managers', or what else and have come to terms with the idea they are ordinary employees just like their counterparts on the ground providing a service, pretty much like reception staff at a hotel for instance.
There's really no more room to pamper them through generous end of carreer schemes wich allow them to have 10 years of comfortably paid leave as from 55 and/or a payout of 1/3rd of a million euro at the end of their carreer.


Quoting seahawk (Reply 96):
The current situation is much more damaging to LH.

YOu think so?
Just look at BA: they went through the same mess 5 years ago, and they got out much better.
If they can make the airline much leaner, and give it a much lower and far more competitive cost base, no strike cost is going to scare them away from it.
The long term benefits are so overwhelming, that even a month long strike (or longer) is just short term pain.
Besides, whereas LH itself may pretty much be shut down, the other entities of the group all work as normal.
If anything, it's just demonstrating to your managers that all future growth is to happen there, rather than at LH itself.
I am sorry to say, but it's really time to wake up and smell the coffee: others in Europe have long done so (to the exception of AF), or have gone bust in the mean time...

[Edited 2015-11-12 01:33:36]

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