DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

FSDan · Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:56 pm

I was looking through DL's W16 schedule over the weekend and found a few exciting domestic widebody additions utilizing the 333. There may be more, but this is what I have found so far:

January: ATL-SFO x1
February: MSP-SEA x1, MSP-LAX x1, ATL-SEA x1, ATL-LAX x1, ATL-SLC x1

If this holds, I think it will be the first time that DL has regularly scheduled 333s on domestic routes besides Hawaii. There are occasional upgauges for Thanksgiving and Christmas and equipment swaps, but I don't recall seeing DL use the 333 on any domestic routes other than as one offs. I was just on a DL 333 on an AMS-MSP flight last week and it was a great ride (IMO a much better ride than the 764 I was on for the outbound DTW-AMS flight).

As a side note, in February MSP will see more daily widebody flights on DL than I ever recall seeing:
MSP-SEA 1x 333
MSP-SFO 1x 763
MSP-LAX 1x 333
MSP-LAS 1x 763
MSP-PHX 2x 763
MSP-RSW 1x 763
MSP-MCO 3x 763
MSP-ATL 1x 763
MSP-CUN 1x 763
MSP-LHR 1x 764
MSP-CDG 1x 333
MSP-AMS 2x 333
MSP-HNL 1x 763
MSP-NRT 1x 332

That's a total of 18 daily widebody flights. When was the last time (if ever) that MSP had that many?

bobnwa · Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
I was just on a DL 333 on an AMS-MSP flight last week and it was a great ride (IMO a much better ride than the 764

Be carefull what you are saying there. By the way I agree.

a380787 · Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):

Surprisingly, MSP-DTW doesn't even have one (?)

764 · Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
When was the last time (if ever) that MSP had that many

I'm not sure about the exact number, but in the late nineties we used to see a lot of domestic D10 flying to DTW and SEA. There were also quite a few 747s around back then (to AMS, NRT and occasionally even domestically, iirc).

jfklganyc · Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:03 pm

I'm always shocked that JFK doesn't have any.

tlecam · Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 4):

I'm always shocked that JFK doesn't have any.

I assume you mean domestic A330 flights? They do have some 763 service from JFK to SFO (and possibly LAX, although my memory is hazy.) The ~8AM flight from JFK - SFO is often a 763.

WA707atMSP · Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:45 pm

Just for fun, here was NW's widebody schedule as of Dec 1974 (courtesy Departed Flights):

ATL: 1x day DC-10
ORD: 6x day DC-10, 2x day 747
DTW: 1x day DC-10
LAX: 1x day DC-10, 1x day 747
MKE: 2x day DC-10, 1x day 747
PHL: 1x day DC-10
SFO: 1x day DC-10
SEA: 2x day DC-10
GEG: 1x day DC-10
YWG: 1x day DC-10

That's a total of 17 DC-10s and 4 747s.

As of Nov 1979 the NW widebody schedule was:

BOS: 1x day DC-10
ORD: 6x day DC-10
DTW: 2x day DC-10, 2x day 747
LAX: 1x day DC-10, 1x day 747
SFO: 1x day DC-10
SEA: 1x day DC-10
GEG: 2x day DC-10
YWG: 1x day DC-10

A total of 15 DC-10s and 3 747s

FSDan · Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
ORD: 6x day DC-10, 2x day 747

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
MKE: 2x day DC-10, 1x day 747

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
YWG: 1x day DC-10

Wow. It's hard to believe that there used to be that much short haul widebody service, especially to somewhere like YWG!

RIX · Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 5):
They do have some 763 service from JFK to SFO (and possibly LAX, although my memory is hazy.)

I checked JFK - LAX very recently, it has 763. I also was onboard 763 JFK to Atlanta, although quite a while ago.

northwestEWR · Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:36 pm

I suspect they're doing this for pilot training purposes. There are a lot of guys that just lost the 747 who are making their way through the A330 class in time for these Jan/Feb domestic runs.

Might as well use that A330 capacity domestically and to train pilots during the Europe off season.

mke717spotter · Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
MKE: 2x day DC-10, 1x day 747

NW was still sending DC-10s to MKE through the late 90s.

jetjack74 · Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 10):
NW was still sending DC-10s to MKE through the late 90s.

And to SEA, LAS, MCO, MEM, LAX, SFO, BOS.......

airxliban · Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):

January: ATL-SFO x1
February: MSP-SEA x1, MSP-LAX x1, ATL-SEA x1, ATL-LAX x1, ATL-SLC x1

That's great news. Do we know if these are loaded in DL's internet booking engine yet? I did a couple of spot searches and couldn't find the MSP-LAX and ATL-LAX flights.

FSDan · Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting airxliban (Reply 12):
That's great news. Do we know if these are loaded in DL's internet booking engine yet? I did a couple of spot searches and couldn't find the MSP-LAX and ATL-LAX flights.

The date I was looking at was Monday, Feb 15, 2016. I just checked DL's website and I can book the 9:10am MSP-LAX flight on the 333, so it looks like they are loaded.

Prost · Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:33 pm

The bad news would be international must be quite reduced.

treebeard787 · Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 11):
Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 10):
NW was still sending DC-10s to MKE through the late 90s.

And to SEA, LAS, MCO, MEM, LAX, SFO, BOS.......

I recall NW running DC-10-40s MSP-PHX multiple times a day as well, up until around 2002 or so. My second ever flight on a DC-10 was on the route in fact, flight 100.

BayAreaFlyer · Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:25 pm

There's a missing gap into DL's network, MSP-OAK hasn't been considered.

redzeppelin · Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:52 pm

The 333 is also on ATL-HNL in February

Quoting Prost (Reply 14):
The bad news would be international must be quite reduced.

DL is of course taking 333 deliveries, and winter always slows down, so the slack could come from both sources.
I pulled the current schedules for these flights using the Feb 15 date mentioned above. Some of them could conceivably be mid-day turns between scheduled international trips. It's hard to tell. But there is definitely some slack.

ATL-HNL-ATL: 1050-1604, 1735-713(+1) --- uses 1 frame.
ATL-SLC-ATL: 1050-1307, 1355-1945 --- This could rotate from Intl routes via ATL. 48 min turn?
ATL-SEA-ATL: 1105-1344, 1445-2215 --- Straight turn in SEA? RON in ATL?
ATL-LAX-MSP: 0959-1200, 1245-1815 --- in MSP in time for flight to Europe? 45 min turn at LAX?
MSP-LAX-ATL: 0910-1110, 1230-1945 --- originate in MSP, in ATL for evening flight to Europe?
MSP-SEA-MSP: 1115-1302, 1320-1835 --- looks like it originates in MSP, rotates international at SEA

I didn't look up all of the international route timings, but looks like there will be at least one 333 RON at MSP and at least one 333 RON at ATL. I assumed from the schedule that ATL-LAX-ATL can't be a straight turn, and probably rotates with MSP. What is a reasonable turn time for a 333 between domestic sectors? Can it be turned in 45 minutes?

[Edited 2015-11-02 14:54:16]

[Edited 2015-11-02 14:56:21]

[Edited 2015-11-02 15:00:25]

LAX772LR · Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MSP-NRT 1x 332

Has it been an A332 for long?

Pretty significant downgauge (rightsizing?) for a route that IINM routinely saw 744s for a longggg time.

KGRB · Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 10):

NW was still sending DC-10s to MKE through the late 90s.

My first flight was on a NW DC-10-40 from MKE to MSP(!) in December of 1996. My how times have changed...

Quoting Treebeard787 (Reply 15):

I recall NW running DC-10-40s MSP-PHX multiple times a day as well, up until around 2002 or so. My second ever flight on a DC-10 was on the route in fact, flight 100.

I remember flying NW100 many times in the late 90s/early 00s. The DC-10s mainly ran that route in the winter, IIRC, with A319s and A320s on the route in the summer. Once the 757-300s came on the property, they took over many of the MSP-PHX flights.

WA707atMSP · Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 7):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
ORD: 6x day DC-10, 2x day 747
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
MKE: 2x day DC-10, 1x day 747
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):
YWG: 1x day DC-10

Wow. It's hard to believe that there used to be that much short haul widebody service, especially to somewhere like YWG!

As we've discussed in past threads about NW, an unusually high percentage of their aircraft were 747s and DC-10s. The tradeoff to having such a large widebody fleet is that they needed to make multiple stops to keep their aircraft full. Many of these short haul flights were making stops in nearby cities for extra passengers, before they continued to their final destinations:

ORD:
The 7 AM DC-10 continued to FLL.
The 8 AM 747 continued to TPA
The 9 AM DC-10 continued to MIA
The 4 PM DC-10 is a turn around.
The 5:25 PM DC-10 is a turn around
The 7:05 PM DC-10 continued to TPA
The 10:20 PM DC-10 terminated at ORD.
The 12:50 AM 747 (which was probably operated mainly for mail and freight) continued to DTW and JFK.

MKE:
The 7:40 AM DC-10 continued to MIA
The 10:00 AM DC-10 originated in YWG, and continued to TPA
The noon 747 continued to JFK, with onward connections to Europe.

Likewise, the lone DC-10 nonstop to PHL continued to EWR, and the lone DC-10 to ATL continued to TPA.

So, only three of NW's eight widebodies to ORD and none of their three widebodies to MKE terminated there; the rest picked up more passengers (or freight) enroute to onward destinations.

My lone frustration with the (otherwise amazing) departed flights web site is that it does not include the detailed flight itinerary pages at the back of NW's old timetables. These pages show pretty clearly the multi stop nature of NW's flights.

FSDan · Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
ATL-SLC-ATL: 1050-1307, 1355-1945 --- This could rotate from Intl routes via ATL. 48 min turn?

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
ATL-LAX-MSP: 0959-1200, 1245-1815 --- in MSP in time for flight to Europe? 45 min turn at LAX?

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
What is a reasonable turn time for a 333 between domestic sectors? Can it be turned in 45 minutes?

A 333 definitely couldn't be turned in 45 minutes (for reference, 752s are generally 50 minutes and domestic 763s are about 1 hour). Probably 1.5 hrs or more to turn a 333 I would guess. I'm 99% sure that these flights will be re-timed slightly before the February schedule is finalized - it's still in a somewhat preliminary state this far out.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
Has it been an A332 for long?

Pretty significant downgauge (rightsizing?) for a route that IINM routinely saw 744s for a longggg time.

Not for too long (it has mostly been a 777 recently), although there might have been some time last winter when it went to the 332. I'm sure the 332 is enough capacity to handle the MSP O&D plus any connections from upper-Midwest markets that are unique to the MSP hub. If you think about it, there probably are quite a few connections from MSP to the rest of Asia that are now being routed MSP-SEA-XXX instead of MSP-NRT-XXX.

northwestEWR · Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 14):
The bad news would be international must be quite reduced.

Not more than normal during the Winter season.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
The 333 is also on ATL-HNL in February

The route switched over to the A330 in September and will probably stay on the A330 for the foreseeable future.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
DL is of course taking 333 deliveries, and winter always slows down, so the slack could come from both sources.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
What is a reasonable turn time for a 333 between domestic sectors? Can it be turned in 45 minutes?

Technically the minimum ground time at Delta for the A330-300 is 1:05 on a domestic turning domestic at a hub station. It's 1:30 international to domestic and 2 hours domestic to international and international - international.

I don't see them trying to turn these at minimum ground time. That's asking for delays. I'd expect 90 minute turns to be the scheduled time.

XFSUgimpLB41X · Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:00 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 9):

I suspect they're doing this for pilot training purposes. There are a lot of guys that just lost the 747 who are making their way through the A330 class in time for these Jan/Feb domestic runs.

It's not. Marketing places the planes where they need them. Years ago, your statement would have been a possibility. That is not the case today!

DTWPurserBoy · Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
Surprisingly, MSP-DTW doesn't even have one (?)

flights between hubs like MSP-DTW, DTW-ATL and MSP-ATL can always fill a 330. There was a time the same was true of flights to MEM.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 23):
It's not. Marketing places the planes where they need them. Years ago, your statement would have been a possibility. That is not the case today!

Nobody uses real airplane for training except for IOE time (initial operating experience) and there is a check airman on board. The simulators are so sophisticated that they can qualify a pilot on them without risking an airplane. There were a series of disastrous crashes in the 60's when aircraft were used at night for training. No passengers on board but usually all of the crew was lost.

If they do use a real airplane they take several crews up to someplace quiet like LAN and do "bounces" and the crews switch off after they have satisfied the instructor. But it is so much safer to do the really scary stuff like stalls, engine outs, etc. on the simulator. Nobody gets hurt.

flyaa757 · Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:31 pm

Speaking of widebodies...check out ATL domestic on 2/15

SEA 0810 76ER
SLC 0825 76A
FLL 0900 76A
LAX 0959 333
SLC 1050 333
HNL 1050 333
SEA 1105 333
MCO 1455 76A
LAX 1614 76A
SFO 1615 76A
SAN 1620 76A
LAS 1955 76A
MSP 2000 76A

4 333s!

cloudboy · Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 24):
flights between hubs like MSP-DTW, DTW-ATL and MSP-ATL can always fill a 330. There was a time the same was true of flights to MEM.

I've never understood that though. Why would there be so many people going from ATL to MSP for example? It wounld not make sense that there are increased connections, because being a hub you already have direct connections. And why would people connect through two hubs unless either it is a very small airport or you have a particular interest in long routing/multi-leg flights?

threeifbyair · Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 26):
I've never understood that though. Why would there be so many people going from ATL to MSP for example? It wounld not make sense that there are increased connections, because being a hub you already have direct connections. And why would people connect through two hubs unless either it is a very small airport or you have a particular interest in long routing/multi-leg flights?

Probably a combination of various factors:

1) Unique market on one or both ends of the route (e.g. MOT or MLB)
2) DL likely captures the vast majority of the O&D market at both ends (higher share than 1-hub city pairs)
2a) Loyal DL people in ATL & MSP will still choose 1-stop DL routings if the times of the nonstop flights don't work.
3) Some level of company traffic (flight crews, management, training, etc.)
4) Rebooked passengers (which happen every day due to missed flights, late connections, etc.)

Other stuff I haven't thought of.

MSPNWA · Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:48 pm

I wonder if the widebody increase is to create more slack in the narrowbody fleet for winter modifications. You need to make hay on those during the winter time.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 26):
I've never understood that though. Why would there be so many people going from ATL to MSP for example? It wounld not make sense that there are increased connections, because being a hub you already have direct connections. And why would people connect through two hubs unless either it is a very small airport or you have a particular interest in long routing/multi-leg flights?

There's a lot of cities served by ATL that are not served well, or at all, by MSP. And there's some vice versa. So there's a large need for connections through either.

WA707atMSP · Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 27):
4) Rebooked passengers (which happen every day due to missed flights, late connections, etc.)

Flight cancellations are another reason for hub-hub traffic. If a flight from ATL to SFO cancels, or has a long delay, the passengers will be connected via any of the other hubs that have empty seats.

FoxBravo · Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MSP-LAX 1x 333

This is the ~9am departure that has been a domestic 763 for a very long time, so this isn't such a huge change in capacity (293 seats vs 261, I believe), although it is definitely a product upgrade. I wonder if this is related to the retirement of the domestic 763s, or if those are simply being shuffled to other routes.

Flighty · Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 18):
Pretty significant downgauge (rightsizing?) for a route that IINM routinely saw 744s for a longggg time.

MSP NRT was 747 Classic for a LONG time like 30+ years, then 744 between about 2004 and 2012, then often 772. Airbus is new on the route.

burnsie28 · Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 23):
Marketing places the planes where they need them

Small correction... Network does, not marketing.

tlecam · Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:53 am

Interestingly, delta 476 l (SFO-JFK) this coming Sunday is operating with a 764.

[Edited 2015-11-03 17:54:23]

usairways85 · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting tlecam (Reply 33):
Interestingly, delta 476 l (SFO-JFK) this coming Sunday is operating with a 764.

The Falcons play at the 49ers this coming Sunday. I don't know if the Falcon's use DL (I assume so). The SFO-JFK flight could just be a one-off sub to get the plane back into the normal rotation.

YYZAMS · Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:13 am

MSP - SEA A330 is what I noticed too the other day when I was looking at flights. It was going for about 400 up front for one way....not bad

DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

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RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

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RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

RE: DL Domestic 333 Service Winter 2016

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