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nickflightx
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Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:32 am

https://gma.yahoo.com/family-survives-week-week-airport-living-091922616--abc-news-topstories.html

Just saw this, and wow this is crazy! Going on 50 days!
 
bennett123
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:41 am

I heard something about this.

The problem with refugees/migrants is that everyone feels sorry for them/a desire to help.

The thing is what do you do when they turn uninvited and say "I like it in your country" especially when the move may be permanent.

Also it is not just one family, there are millions of them.
 
jetbintahn
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:26 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 1):
The thing is what do you do when they turn uninvited and say "I like it in your country" especially when the move may be permanent.

Careful, one shouldn't assume that's case here. As a quick summary, the mother was born in the Soviet Union and her sister still lives in Russia. Most of the family carry Iraqi passports, except for the two youngest children, and this is apparently where the snafu occurred - they had Syrian passports issued through the father (Syrian) and Russia granted them visas, only to decide their passports were fake when the family arrived.

Syria has since kindly clarified that they're legit documents and the Russian foreign ministry reckons they might just get a chance to review the case in the coming weeks. The poor family, my heart goes out to them, I'm sure they were thrilled at the news their stay at Sheremetyevo transit area has been lengthened by another couple of months or so..

[Edited 2015-11-03 02:29:06]
 
diverted
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:55 am

Quoting jetbintahn (Reply 2):
Careful, one shouldn't assume that's case here. As a quick summary, the mother was born in the Soviet Union and her sister still lives in Russia. Most of the family carry Iraqi passports, except for the two youngest children, and this is apparently where the snafu occurred - they had Syrian passports issued through the father (Syrian) and Russia granted them visas, only to decide their passports were fake when the family arrived.

Syria has since kindly clarified that they're legit documents and the Russian foreign ministry reckons they might just get a chance to review the case in the coming weeks. The poor family, my heart goes out to them, I'm sure they were thrilled at the news their stay at Sheremetyevo transit area has been lengthened by another couple of months or so..

Call Tom Hanks.

On a serious note though, man that's gotta suck. Stuck in limbo in an airport...
 
PEK777
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting jetbintahn (Reply 2):
I'm sure they were thrilled at the news their stay at Sheremetyevo transit area has been lengthened by another couple of months or so

They could always go back to where they belong.
 
mmo
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
They could always go back to where they belong.

Isn't that a little harsh? Glad to see empathy is a strong point for you!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 5):
Isn't that a little harsh? Glad to see empathy is a strong point for you!!

No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year. That's a number which is high enough to alter European society as it is now and change it forever. 10 million migrants where only 10% have higher education and less than half ever end up working. (At least that's the figures for Syrian migrants in Norway). In that single year we have taken on 10 million migrants, the population in the countries they migrated from has increased by about 65 million. You do the math.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 5):

Isn't that a little harsh? Glad to see empathy is a strong point for you!!

That's actually a commonly held point (especially over here in Germany)...whether you agree with it or not. Still, 50 days is a bit long...and these guys weren't selling government secrets like Snowden.
 
mmo
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 6):
No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
That's actually a commonly held point (especially over here in Germany)...whether you agree with it or not.

Let's see. Mother is Russian by birth. All have valid passports and visas. And you don't think it's fair?

I guess I'm missing something.
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ua900
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
Let's see. Mother is Russian by birth. All have valid passports and visas. And you don't think it's fair?

I guess I'm missing something.

She's not Russian. She was born in Kazakhstan while it was still part of the Soviet Union. It's like saying that someone born in the Philippines before 1946 is admissible to the U.S. by default, plus any family members travelling with them on foreign passports. As for admissibility on a valid visa, U.S. CBP officers determine admissibility for both ESTA participants and Visa holders. Not surprising that other countries would reserve that right for themselves as well. And false papers aren't unheard of these days in Europe, so the initial concern they had could be valid. The only bad part here is that it takes them 50 days to make that call.

http://www.voanews.com/content/russi...yrians-seeking-refuge/3004464.html

http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/esta

http://www.rt.com/news/316570-eu-false-syrian-refugees/

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 6):
No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year. That's a number which is high enough to alter European society as it is now and change it forever. 10 million migrants where only 10% have higher education and less than half ever end up working. (At least that's the figures for Syrian migrants in Norway). In that single year we have taken on 10 million migrants, the population in the countries they migrated from has increased by about 65 million. You do the math.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
That's actually a commonly held point (especially over here in Germany)...whether you agree with it or not. Still, 50 days is a bit long...and these guys weren't selling government secrets like Snowden.

Agreed, very common viewpoint towards refugees these days, especially in Europe. It's hard for them to separate the economic refugees from the political ones, and the ones who want to stay indefinitely vs. the ones who want to return once fighting ceases. And of course people who leave are also unavailable to turn the tide back home.

http://www.politico.eu/article/germa...n-migration-asylum-refugees-syria/
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rg787
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 6):
No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year. That's a number which is high enough to alter European society as it is now and change it forever. 10 million migrants where only 10% have higher education and less than half ever end up working. (At least that's the figures for Syrian migrants in Norway). In that single year we have taken on 10 million migrants, the population in the countries they migrated from has increased by about 65 million. You do the math.

Well, if you and your country are so much against it, why you don't send troops and end all this? I will get bashed for this but there is no sympathy in me for xenophile discusses. While it is true that the refugees from africa and the middle east should not be going to europe, no one cared about this when the US invaded Iraq and left them on their own. I know it is a complicated history, but well... Point is made. Also, in the past there were numerous times when europeans fled. World War 2, Napoleon, the expansion to the Americas, the domination of Africa and even some parts of Asia, just to name a few occasions, and nobody seemed to say the same thing you are saying.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 6):
No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year. That's a number which is high enough to alter European society as it is now and change it forever. 10 million migrants where only 10% have higher education and less than half ever end up working.

There are currently over 40 million first-generation immigrants in the U.S. (inclusive of documented and undocumented immigrants). Although we will grumble and moan about it, the U.S. hosts a continuous influx of immigrants that mostly manage to integrate rather well and become productive members of society. The current number of legal immigrants is around 1 million per year since 2000. I'm not certain of the undocumented population.

I believe a nation has a sovereign right to border controls. I understand the impulse to preserve what is comfortable-- although I reject that there exists such a thing as "European society", as you put it. However, it is callous to say, "go back where you belong" to a group of people who are trying to escape a civil war.

[Edited 2015-11-03 17:30:58]
 
PEK777
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 11):
I'm not certain of the undocumented population

Just so everyone is clear, by 'undocumented' we mean illegally crossed the border and in the country unlawfully. I just wanted to clear that up and not cower under the skirt of political correctness.
 
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
Quoting jetbintahn (Reply 2):
I'm sure they were thrilled at the news their stay at Sheremetyevo transit area has been lengthened by another couple of months or so

They could always go back to where they belong.

Exactly.

They should just go back to where they came from.
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:26 am

Quoting rg787 (Reply 10):
Also, in the past there were numerous times when europeans fled. World War 2, Napoleon, the expansion to the Americas, the domination of Africa and even some parts of Asia, just to name a few occasions, and nobody seemed to say the same thing you are saying.

It was probably being said...but since we didn't have internet boards then...  
 
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting rg787 (Reply 10):

Absolutely this mess is partially fault of the west and the US & George W Bushes government in particular. But right now it's countries like Finland that had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq war and other failures of western foreign policy that are paying the price, and that's unfair.

I'm not too keen on the idea of sacrificing Finnish social security, state funded healthcare and education and paying more taxes just to pay the living of tens or hundreds of thousands of people who have been forced to leave their home countries due to mess caused by others, or in many cases have arrived here just to get free money. While there are many legitimate refugees arriving, there are also a large number of economic migrants with no real danger back home simply taking advantage of the situation.

I quite doubt that sending troops could fix this mess, though it would be better than nothing. Still, I believe better border control and building of western funded refugee camps to nearby Middle Eastern / African countries is the only solution. For most of the refugees with little to no education Europe has no work to offer, keeping them on welfare forever would be disastrous for all parties involved.

[Edited 2015-11-04 01:43:11]
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n92r03
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Absolutely this mess is partially fault of the west and the US & George W Bushes government in particular.

Oh boy, here we go, Seriously bro, get real?
 
nomadd22
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 12):

Just so everyone is clear, by 'undocumented' we mean illegally crossed the border and in the country unlawfully. I just wanted to clear that up and not cower under the skirt of political correctness.

No. Most of them crossed the border legally and just forgot to leave.
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:28 pm

This is more a direct result of withdrawing from Iraq and abandoning an ally in Egypt, despotic though he was. This greatly destabilized the region
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pvjin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 16):
Oh boy, here we go, Seriously bro, get real?

ISIS originates from Iraqi Al Qaeda which could rise only after Saddam was out of the picture and there was nothing to fill the resulting power vacuum. So yes, the rise of ISIS and the resulting wave of refugees is largely fault of GWB. Admittedly Obama administration has made things only worse by supporting chaotic "pro democracy" forces in Libya and Syria.

Things just don't come out of nowhere, they are caused by developments that come from the past. I happen to study these things in an university.

[Edited 2015-11-04 13:30:40]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
bennett123
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:29 pm

Not sure how people "forget" to go home.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
So yes, the rise of ISIS and the resulting wave of refugees is largely fault of GWB.

This is not a correct reading of history. The removal of the Baathist government may be a "but for" cause, but it is not the direct cause of the rise of ISIS. The power vacuum you speak of was caused by the lack of stability prior to withdrawal of military presence. That withdrawal occurred after the Bush presidency. The timing of the withdrawal was only politically, but not strategically, appropriate. No sense in debating the Iraq conflict, really. We all have our opinions and new information isn't likely to change them.

Blaming the Bush Administration for all of the world's problems is a silly exercise at this point; if they, or their ideological successors, were still in office, there would still be a substantial American military presence in Iraq that would have staved off those who sought to exploit the vacuum.

What's more, the EU's management of the refugee crisis is the probably most material issue when assessing the incident as a whole.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 18):

This is more a direct result of withdrawing from Iraq and abandoning an ally in Egypt, despotic though he was. This greatly destabilized the region

  

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 20):
Not sure how people "forget" to go home.

You deliberately overstay your visa. It happens very often both in the UK and US. There is a conceptual difference between a person who crosses the border illegally, as PEK777 suggested, and a person who entered legally and stays beyond their visa authorisation illegally.

[Edited 2015-11-04 14:13:34]

[Edited 2015-11-04 14:16:15]

[Edited 2015-11-04 14:16:43]
 
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ua900
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 18):
This is more a direct result of withdrawing from Iraq and abandoning an ally in Egypt, despotic though he was. This greatly destabilized the region

Or Tunisia, or Libya, or working with someone like Assad... wars have gone on for all of history. Doesn't matter who started them, better question of who will finish them.

The current situation is not sustainable. Europe can't finance every person who seeks to leave these parts, and the countries these people are leaving from are losing young healthy people who could help reconstruct. Families stuck in Russia or Germany need to be given a way out, a way home that won't see them slaughtered. Better to be stuck in Moscow in a transit zone than to get killed.

Time to stabilize the region in order to minimize costs, suffering and impact on air travel. With tragedies like the refugee crisis, 7K 9268, the suspension of RB's EU routes, as well as the adverse impact of conflicts on IA, FG and 8U operations, it's obvious that something in the region is broken and should get fixed.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 21):

Personally I don't believe that "strategically appropriate" point for withdrawal would have ever become. Stability and and socioeconomic development often leads to democracy, but a foreign power imposing democracy upon a society that lack stability and socioeconomic development usually doesn't lead to those things. To put it simply, any attempts by the US to build a successful democratic society to Iraq were doomed to fail from the start. At some point US would have had to pull out from Iraq due to huge costs anyway, and at that point ISIS and similar organizations would have started to rise no matter what.

So from that mindset it's perfectly logical to see the fall of Saddam as the main event that led to rise of ISIS.
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
any attempts by the US to build a successful democratic society to Iraq were doomed to fail from the start. At some point US would have had to pull out from Iraq due to huge costs anyway...

I agree. You can't impose a democracy on a population that neither wants it nor can support it. But that is an indirect factor that is one of many involved in the proliferation of IS. I disagree with what I infer to be your suggestion that Bush is the most culpable party. His administration left office 7 years ago. It would be irresponsible to not acknowledge the import of the circumstances and decisions that were made in that succeeding 7 years.

Put differently, I won't speculate as to the inevitability of IS. That's a conclusion that requires a number of inferences I am not comfortable making. There probably would have been a point at which the Iraqi government and army would have been more capable of responding to IS. It's also possible that they would have never improved, and would have become reliant on the coalition's presence. I favor the former, however, because I tend to believe that militaries institutionalise and stabilise over time.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:16 pm

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 24):
I disagree with what I infer to be your suggestion that Bush is the most culpable party

Bush is exactly the most culpable party. He started it. There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. The feared weapon of mass destruction was a figment of imagination of his government.
Saddam was a bloody dictator, yes, but what right did the USA have to start a war and destabilize the region?
 
wzafar
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 13):

Send the boats back! Or bribe the smugglers to take the boats back.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
Bush is exactly the most culpable party. He started it. There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. The feared weapon of mass destruction was a figment of imagination of his government.
Saddam was a bloody dictator, yes, but what right did the USA have to start a war and destabilize the region?

Sorry, I'm not going to debate the the Iraq war or especially the pretexts to that war. As I said in my last post, it's a subject where opinion is crystallised. No information is likely to enlighten or change minds.

Bush didn't cause the migrant crisis, and it strikes me as absolutely ludicrous to make such a cavalier statement.

[Edited 2015-11-04 15:35:44]
 
eielef
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:06 am

How did the fly from Syria or Iraq to Moscow? Specially to SVO, because Syrianair has some irregular and erratical flights to VKO, but SVO?! The only idea that cames to my mind is that weird flight of Aeroflot between Teheran IKA and SVO, though it arrives to Terminal F.
Could they have been transit passengers on IKA without a serious passport control?
Or if not, flying via Istanbul: why didn't they stay in Istanbul instead of Moscow?
I can't imagine any other routes that could lead them to SVO... Which is quite a great place to stay, in comparison to DME which is so overcrowded...

Russia asks also for Transit Visas everywhere but in SVO, DME and, I think, OVB and SVX, which have a special transit area. Even transit that involved (previously) crossing from SVO2 (today Terminal D-E-F) to SVO1 (today Terminal A-C) meant also a transit visa. There are no flight leaving SVO1 anymore, or at least not any that allow connections.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting wzafar (Reply 26):
Send the boats back! Or bribe the smugglers to take the boats back.

The later is far less of a burden on the local tax payer  
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wzafar
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):

You are right about the tax burden but still we can't assume all refugees/migrants will be a tax burden on the state. Most of them work very hard to make a life and sure there will be those who abuse the system and live on the dole.

I met an Afghan refugee in regional Victoria last year who came by boat and the way he described the journey and how he risked his life made me think if he did have a choice to stay in Afghanistan he probably would have.

Anyway, back to the topic. I feel sorry for this family stuck in limbo and don't feel it is because of their own fault. And they certainly shouldn't be told to go back where they came from when where they came from is unsafe to live.
 
afcjets
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
some point US would have had to pull out from Iraq due to huge costs anyway, and at that point ISIS and similar organizations would have started to rise no matter what.

We have a military presence in places like Germany and Japan still and we couldn't keep any in Iraq? It was all political to withdraw prematurely and completely, and precisely why all hell broke lose and it was 100% Obama's decision, despite being told by all his military advisors what would happen and he refused to listen because it did not align with his ideal fantasy of how the world should work.

Rather than prove to a political party we were not in it for the oil, it would have been far better for us to have taken the oil to help cover our costs than to have it fund ISIS which is exactly what it's doing.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
Bush is exactly the most culpable party. He started it. There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. The feared weapon of mass destruction was a figment of imagination of his government.
Saddam was a bloody dictator, yes, but what right did the USA have to start a war and destabilize the region?

Despite the fabled mantra of Bush lied, people died, it was faulty intelligence and not all of it was US intelligence which is why so many countries joined the US to form the coalition. We had the right because Sadam could have granted unencumbered access to prove he didn't have any weapons stashed, but he liked the rest of the world thinking he had them even though he didn't, and it proved to be his downfall.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:10 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 31):
Despite the fabled mantra of Bush lied, people died, it was faulty intelligence and not all of it was US intelligence which is why so many countries joined the US to form the coalition. We had the right because Sadam could have granted unencumbered access to prove he didn't have any weapons stashed, but he liked the rest of the world thinking he had them even though he didn't, and it proved to be his downfall.

There were UN inspectors in Iraq declaring that they could not find those weapons before the war. I even remember a discussion were those inspectors declared, if the CIA could tell were those weapons would be they would go locking.
The USA was "joking" about those inspectors not finding what was clearly there.
And I well remember the attitude in the USA regarding the countries not supporting this war.
The faulty intelligence about the weapons is one point, but connecting Iraq with Al Qaida was the other point and there it was not faulty intelligence but fabrication.

And that does not mean I am or was a friend of Saddam and his bloody dictatorship, but one should leave countries to do there own regime change. The war and the aftermath have killed 100 thousands of civilians.
 
afcjets
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:18 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 32):
The faulty intelligence about the weapons is one point, but connecting Iraq with Al Qaida was the other point and there it was not faulty intelligence but fabrication.

And that does not mean I am or was a friend of Saddam and his bloody dictatorship, but one should leave countries to do there own regime change. The war and the aftermath have killed 100 thousands of civilians.

I don't remember Bush connecting Iraq with Al Qaeda. Sadam through terror and his military killed more than a million people, far less.
 
mmo
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
he later is far less of a burden on the local tax payer  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
I'm not too keen on the idea of sacrificing Finnish social security, state funded healthcare and education and paying more taxes just to pay the living of tens or hundreds of thousands of people who have been forced to leave their home countries due to mess caused by others, or in many cases have arrived here just to get free money. While there are many legitimate refugees arriving, there are also a large number of economic migrants with no real danger back home simply taking advantage of the situation.
Quoting ua900 (Reply 9):
Agreed, very common viewpoint towards refugees these days, especially in Europe. It's hard for them to separate the economic refugees from the political ones, and the ones who want to stay indefinitely vs. the ones who want to return once fighting ceases. And of course people who leave are also unavailable to turn the tide back home.
Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 6):

No, it's not harsh. Let's say Russia or Europe decides to be extremely generous and take on 10 million migrants the next year. That's a number which is high enough to alter European society as it is now and change it forever. 10 million migrants where only 10% have higher education and less than half ever end up working. (At least that's the figures for Syrian migrants in Norway). In that single year we have taken on 10 million migrants, the population in the countries they migrated from has increased by about 65 million. You do the math

I have done the math!!! Looks like you haven't!! Interesting reading. But what do they know!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...for-germany-leading-economist-says
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 33):
I don't remember Bush connecting Iraq with Al Qaeda. Sadam through terror and his military killed more than a million people, far less.

georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/10/print/20021007-8.html
 
PEK777
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:45 am

Can all the immigrants / invaders be relocated to a single location, where assistance would be centralized? Madagascar is an option, I read it could take up to one million Muslims a year for four years.Also, if we put them all in one place which has all the resources one could need, we could study them from outside (observation, not interaction) and establish once and for all if these people simply are not capable of society/civilization or if it is all the white man/George W Bush's fault as some on here seem to think. I think this has potential to be a good solution to the Muslim Question.
 
afcjets
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:01 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):

I don't remember that short paragraph in Bush's speech where he made a loose connection, however it does seems to be based on intelligence, not fabrication. While it may not have been a strong enough argument to go to war, it wasn't the main argument for going to war and was probably never or seldom repeated, which is probably why I don't remember it.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 37):
I don't remember that short paragraph in Bush's speech where he made a loose connection, however it does seems to be based on intelligence, not fabrication. While it may not have been a strong enough argument to go to war, it wasn't the main argument for going to war and was probably never or seldom repeated, which is probably why I don't remember it.

It was made a big deal off. Cheney took that part, Al Qaida - Iraq, very serious. People disagreeing were attacked including I think one member of your State Department and his wife, who worked for the CIA.

It is very conveniently forgotten. If you need it I can provide more documents.

What stands as facts are, that both arguments for war, the chemical / biological weapons and the Al Qaida connection were disproved after the war. The UN inspectors were proofed right, that no weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq at the start of the war. Regime change was not an argument of your government and would be an illegal argument for starting a war.
 
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caoimhin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:28 pm

It's a fool's errand to debate this topic. It's far too emotional a topic for a person who begins by saying that Bush caused the migrant crisis. To start with that opinion, one has to have a deeply embedded black-and-white opinion that Bush is just plainly awful. No amount of discussion will change that.

I'll respectfully disagree with you over the Iraq war and accept that reasonable minds can differ on the issue.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 34):
I have done the math!!! Looks like you haven't!! Interesting reading. But what do they know!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...for-germany-leading-economist-says

You need to understand that European mainstream media is inherently biased in favour of pro immigration viewpoints, those with opposing viewpoints won't really get a chance to speak, or are too afraid to do so because of getting called racist or intolerant.

Now, let's look at some solid facts. By far the largest group of refugees in Finland are Somalis, whom this country has been receiving since the civil war began in early 90's. Now, after over 20 years their unemployment rate is around 60-70% and they have a very high crime rate compared to native population and most other immigrant groups. Based on statistics available refugees from Middle East and Islamic parts of Africa have integrated rather poorly everywhere in Europe. Why on earth should I expect things to go otherwise this time when we have tens of times larger amount of refugees to integrate?

This quote from your article is a typical example of the bias I'm talking about:

"He said that Germany’s pending demographic crisis, which without sufficient immigration would lead to a shrinking of its working population by around 4.5 million over the next decade, mean huge opportunities for new arrivals to be integrated into the workplace."

He mentions the demographic issue and shrinking workforce, yet he totally fails to mention the fact that at the same time automation is very much reducing the need for workforce. The truth is that many of the jobs that currently employ large numbers of people will be automated within next two decades while that process of automation will create very few new jobs in return. This isn't like industrialization where the process itself created new jobs in factories for now ex agricultural workers, not at all.

To put it simply; There is no need for a lot of poorly educated workforce in Europe, and due to automation aging population doesn't mean there will soon be more jobs available for these refugees. The big majority of them will end up unemployed, ruining European welfare systems, not to even mention all the other social problems that will result, such as increasing crime, religious radicalization and terrorism.

If you ask me all these right wing economists are lobbying for liberal immigration policy to ruin our European welfare systems and to push wages lower through massive unemployment. Thanks to them and naive leftists who believe them the EU is following a path towards a society more similar to that in the US, a society with dying middle class and huge income disparity. THIS is the reason why I as a liberal leftist absolutely oppose massive "humanitarian immigration" to Europe.
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mmo
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 40):

He mentions the demographic issue and shrinking workforce, yet he totally fails to mention the fact that at the same time automation is very much reducing the need for workforce
Quoting pvjin (Reply 40):
If you ask me all these right wing economists are lobbying for liberal immigration policy to ruin our European welfare systems and to push wages lower through massive unemployment.

First of all, I live in Europe and I disagree with your assessment of the media. Secondly, unless you have a degree in economics and are a economist by trade, I really don't care what your opinion is. It is simply irrelevant.

As such, please provide your sources for your sweeping statements on automation. I simply don't believe your statement. You refer to the problem with Somalis. Did you read the article? It would strike me as no. The article goes on to state things like providing education and training. You simply lump everyone into the same category.
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ua900
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 41):
Secondly, unless you have a degree in economics

Well, I have a degree in Econ so I'll provide some sources and stats around it. For many years the EU and the U.S. have not provided the funds necessary to house, clothe and feed refugees in the region surrounding Syria and Iraq. Now the costs will be much higher, and seeing refugees make it to the EU and having a better life there encourages others to follow.

1. It costs any Western country a lot more to house refugees in either Europe or the U.S. than it does in Jordan, Lebanon or Turkey.

http://cis.org/High-Cost-of-Resettling-Middle-Eastern-Refugees

2. While mainstream media often won't broadcast available stats on incidents and it's easy to assail smaller media outlets as being biased, the government stats these sources cite in various countries show a higher crime rate.

http://en.europenews.dk/Denmark-asto...majority-crime-numbers-120355.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/26...crime-germany-65-daniel-greenfield

Quoting mmo (Reply 41):
please provide your sources for your sweeping statements on automation.

Any remaining jobs that aren't automated require a higher skill set than in the past. Being a skilled woodworker in Syria unfortunately doesn't translate into being a skilled assembler for an EU company that is highly automated. Automation is a key reason why for example EU fishing fleets have put many African fishermen out of business.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/...ut-its-hard-to-see-in-the-numbers/
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...g-west-african-stocks-9269042.html

In non-English speaking EU countries, the required skill set includes the language, the culture of the respective country and a commitment to liberty and tolerance. Much like speaking English is a required skill in the UK, Ireland, the U.S., Canada or Australia. And in the U.S. for example, all immigrants are expected to uphold and defend the constitution, i.e. make a commitment to the republic, Western norms, liberty, etc.

http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/...h-allegiance-united-states-america

And it's the lack of this commitment that's at the center of European concerns, people hear stories and anecdotes of people unable or unwilling to discard Sharia law from back home, the bloody extrajudicial settlement of disputes, the turf wars between groups trying to reestablish the pecking order they knew back home. Right or wrong, mainstream EU politics needs to come up with good answers for both prospective immigrants and for the existing population instead of pretending that conversations at the kitchen table don't exist.

http://time.com/3668889/pegida-germany-islamization/
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mmo
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 42):

1. It costs any Western country a lot more to house refugees in either Europe or the U.S. than it does in Jordan, Lebanon or Turkey.

Who is arguing that point. That is nothing more than common sense.

Did you read the article? If so, your points don't have a thing to do with the article. The article talked about providing education and training to get the masses up to a certain level that would allow them to enter the workforce and be productive.

I give up! What's the point? Now I know how Fox News is so successful!!
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777Jet
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 34):


I have done the math!!! Looks like you haven't!! Interesting reading. But what do they know!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-says

It's not only about the money, it's also about social problems / conflicts that people from particular regions bring to the countries that they chose to move to. They claim to be fleeing oppression, yet they want to force similar oppressive characteristics onto the society that they chose to enter. One need not look past certain countries in Europe to know what kinds of problems I'm talking about.
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lewis
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 34):

I cannot take any points that discuss demographics and mass introduction of foreigners seriously. How about we take all those funds that are destined to support "newcomers" for decades to come and spend them on Germans, Greeks, Austrians, Italians etc, giving them incentives to have more babies? Do you know why many Europeans don't have more babies? Because they can't afford to have them!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 44):
One need not look past certain countries in Europe to know what kinds of problems I'm talking about.
Quoting lewis (Reply 45):
I cannot take any points that discuss demographics and mass introduction of foreigners seriously.

France.
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alfa164
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:55 am

I hate to get into a political discussion here... but, with this topic, there is no way to avoid it...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Absolutely this mess is partially fault of the west and the US & George W Bushes government in particular

  

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 18):
This is more a direct result of withdrawing from Iraq and abandoning an ally in Egypt, despotic though he was. This greatly destabilized the region

Sorry, but pvjin is right. Saddam wasn't a nice guy, but he provided the balance of power in the Middle East that prevented the dominance of Iran (now the leading power there) and the rise of radical groups like Al Qaida and ISIL.

And it was just his ruthlessness that kept all of them at bay.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
ISIS originates from Iraqi Al Qaeda which could rise only after Saddam was out of the picture and there was nothing to fill the resulting power vacuum. So yes, the rise of ISIS and the resulting wave of refugees is largely fault of GWB.

     

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 21):
The removal of the Baathist government may be a "but for" cause, but it is not the direct cause of the rise of ISIS. The power vacuum you speak of was caused by the lack of stability prior to withdrawal of military presence. That withdrawal occurred after the Bush presidency. The timing of the withdrawal was only politically, but not strategically, appropriate
Quoting caoimhin (Reply 21):
Blaming the Bush Administration for all of the world's problems is a silly exercise at this point; if they, or their ideological successors, were still in office, there would still be a substantial American military presence in Iraq that would have staved off those who sought to exploit the vacuum.
Quoting caoimhin (Reply 24):
I disagree with what I infer to be your suggestion that Bush is the most culpable party. His administration left office 7 years ago. It would be irresponsible to not acknowledge the import of the circumstances and decisions that were made in that succeeding 7 years.

Not quite right. The US withdrawal was unavoidable; the Iraqui government refused to renew or renegotiate a "Status of Forces" agreement with the US. Further, the US citizenry had no stomach for prolonging the folly in Iraq any further.

The "silly exercise" was the Bush administration's determination to wage war against a sovreign country that posed no threat to the USA.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 31):
Despite the fabled mantra of Bush lied, people died, it was faulty intelligence and not all of it was US intelligence which is why so many countries joined the US to form the coalition. We had the right because Sadam could have granted unencumbered access to prove he didn't have any weapons stashed, but he liked the rest of the world thinking he had them even though he didn't, and it proved to be his downfall.

Not quite right, either. It wasn't "faulty intelligence" that led to war; it was political manipulation of intelligence that brought that on. No one in the intelligence community declared there were WMD's in Iraq, but the Cheney-Rumsfeld fiefdom designed to reports to indicate otherwise.

Ironically, Saddam thought everyone in the USA was aware there were no WMD's; he thought it was domestic political blustering (he should know a lot about that!). On the other hand, he wanted his own people - and Iran - to believe they did exist, to deflect any thoughts they might have about overthrowing him.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
It was made a big deal off. Cheney took that part, Al Qaida - Iraq, very serious. People disagreeing were attacked including I think one member of your State Department and his wife, who worked for the CIA.
It is very conveniently forgotten. If you need it I can provide more documents.
What stands as facts are, that both arguments for war, the chemical / biological weapons and the Al Qaida connection were disproved after the war. The UN inspectors were proofed right, that no weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq at the start of the war. Regime change was not an argument of your government and would be an illegal argument for starting a war.

         Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for in today's Middle East.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Family Stuck In Airport

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:41 am

Since this thread has turned political it is being locked.

Regards,
Pat
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