klwright69
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Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:36 am

 
airliner371
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:07 am

Having these smaller carriers expand at the NYC airports would be great but at the same time, I don't see how you could do that. If you add more slots, the airports will be more prone to delays, but taking away slots from airlines is not fair either.

One thing I think is JFK may have some room during the mornings and early afternoons before the trans-atlantic flights come in but LGA really has no room to add slots and EWR is pretty tight too.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:35 am

Well duh. It's like saying you want more air, food or money.

Every airline wants more NYC access but it ain't gonna happen for the operational reasons listed by airliner371.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:24 am

Doesn't seem to mention the largest carrier (or second largest depending on season) at JFK is B6

Or that new airlines start service to JFK all the time

Or that if F9 wanted to start 2x JFK DEN service tomorrow they likely could

Seems everyone wants access to prime shuttle slots at LGA. Guess the article misses that
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:27 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
Having these smaller carriers expand at the NYC airports would be great but at the same time, I don't see how you could do that. If you add more slots, the airports will be more prone to delays, but taking away slots from airlines is not fair either.

You could start by not allowing UA to sell its JFK slots to DL. That whole transaction is designed to keep out competitors.

AS hasn't been able to expand its NYC presence beyond 2x SEA-EWR except for the new SEA-JFK redeye turn which uses the available early AM slots.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
but taking away slots from airlines is not fair either.

It is absolutely fair to force the US3 and B6 to divest itself of NYC slots in the name of fair competition.
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Gemuser
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
but taking away slots from airlines is not fair either.

On the contrary IMHO this is the fairest thing to do. They didn't pay for them, in many cases they are the results of mergers and the public interest benefit in more competition is very high.

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UA444
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:55 am

Why JFK? Don't they know that nobody wants to schelp over to that ghost town and that EWR is the center of the universe?
 
airliner371
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
It is absolutely fair to force the US3 and B6 to divest itself of NYC slots in the name of fair competition.
Quoting GEMUSER (Reply 6):
On the contrary IMHO this is the fairest thing to do.

It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

Quoting GEMUSER (Reply 6):
in many cases they are the results of mergers

And the airlines didn't pay enough through those mergers? They were paid for one way or the other.
 
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

It is not in the slightest socialist! You need to look at your terminology.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
And the airlines didn't pay enough through those mergers? They were paid for one way or the other.

The airlines paid nothing to get those slots, they were given by government action, the airlines do not own them, they belong to the government, so government action can take them away and redistribute them. Ask the Harrimans, the Vanderbilts & Rockefellers if you don't believe it.

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kevintarmac
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:22 pm

Its a shame ISP gets no love. Lovely airport.
 
commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:25 pm

WSJ also has an article on the subject with more complaining from Virgin America's Cush about how unfair the system is (following on the complaints las month about DAL access and potentially forced network carriers to codeshare with competitors).

I agree that there definitely should be use-it-or-lose-it provisions for "public good" assets like slots at constrained airports. But as long as the current holders of those slots are complying with those provisions, there should be absolutely no basis to confiscate said slots. That is unfair and at odds with both the legal and economic tradition of the sanctity of property rights that has contributed in no small part to the U.S. becoming the wealthiest society in history.

I also take issue with a point attributed to Cush in the WSJ article and repeated often - that being that the network carriers "received many of [their slots] years ago at no cost." It should not be held against airlines that have been around for decades that they happen to have existed at a time before air travel was as common as today and before airport investments stopped keeping pace with growth in demand. The mere fact that those slots have been theirs for a long time is, to me, totally meaningless to the argument. Beyond that, it's unfair and disingenuous to characterize many of these slots as having "no cost." Airlines may not have paid cash outright for slots decades ago, but incumbent airlines made massive investments in essentially creating the industry we have today and it was precisely many of these investments that facilitated and financed the growth that necessitated slots in the first place.

We should not discount the resources that AA expended helping to literally create LGA airport, or that Pan Am (Delta's at least partial corporate predecessor) expended developing IDL/JFK into the preeminent U.S. gateway across the Atlantic, or that Continental (United's at least partial corporate predecessor) expended turning EWR into the only megahub in the region at a time (post-People Express) when many wrote off EWR completely. These airlines should receive "credit" for what these past actions - to say nothing of the myriad of other investments they made, in some cases literally at the dawn of the airline industry itself - to establish the infrastructure, technology, safety mechanisms, etc. upon which the industry still relies, at least in part, to this day.
 
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

Do you know what this word means? It absolutely an essential function of the government to ensure there is fair competition and access to market for all. Frankly, I wish more industries would be scrutinized.
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enilria
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
Having these smaller carriers expand at the NYC airports would be great but at the same time, I don't see how you could do that. If you add more slots, the airports will be more prone to delays, but taking away slots from airlines is not fair either.
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
Well duh. It's like saying you want more air, food or money.
Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
Small airlines want their share of the pie.

This is really just about this:

FAA Proposes New Rules For EWR/LGA/JFK Slots (by LAXintl Jan 9 2015 in Civil Aviation)

The point of the NPRM is really twofold. Taking away slots that aren't being sufficiently used and requiring a transparent auction process.

Apart from all of that, I do think they should implement a system to reclaim slots from the major holders. Perhaps they take 20% of all slots from everybody and put them into a pool where airlines would have to lay claim to best use for 12 months and they come up with a method that does not favor operating a hub as the method to utilize them optimally.

Arguably, operating a hub at an airport with limited slots is the poorest use of them because the local market in NYC is sufficient to fully utilize LGA and probably EWR slots without the need for a hub, if prices were adjusted to the market. JFK is probably a different story.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
Arguably, operating a hub at an airport with limited slots is the poorest use of them because the local market in NYC is sufficient to fully utilize LGA and probably EWR slots without the need for a hub

Certainly not the case for EWR. If UA wanted to run EWR at 100% O&D, they'd have to cut a lot of flights...particularly on the international side where many of the routes rely on connections to fill more than half the plane.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
That is unfair and at odds with both the legal and economic tradition of the sanctity of property rights that has contributed in no small part to the U.S. becoming the wealthiest society in history.

The sanctity of property rights only applies to private property. Commercial airports like JFK/EWR/LGA are not private property.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
We should not discount the resources that AA expended helping to literally create LGA airport, or that Pan Am (Delta's at least partial corporate predecessor) expended developing IDL/JFK into the preeminent U.S. gateway across the Atlantic, or that Continental (United's at least partial corporate predecessor) expended turning EWR into the only megahub in the region at a time (post-People Express) when many wrote off EWR completely.

Sorry, but ancient history is ancient history. AA's expenditures 80 years ago during the regulated era are irrelevant to slots today in a deregulated environment. Again, airports are PUBLIC facilities that are heavily paid for by tax dollars...not airline investments.
 
commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
Commercial airports like JFK/EWR/LGA are not private property.

No, they're not, but the right of a company to use them is, indeed, an asset in every sense of the word - it has an established market value, and it can be bought, sold and traded. As such, the right to said asset should, indeed, be protected just like any other piece of property.

Again - not saying requirements about utilization should not be attached to these slots to ensure they're being used. I certainly advocate that. But if the holders of the slots are meeting those requirements, it would be travesty to confiscate them arbitrarily.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
AA's expenditures 80 years ago during the regulated era are irrelevant to slots today in a deregulated environment.

Didn't say AA should get to keep its slots with no restrictions today because of what they did eighty years ago. But what I did say is that I found it disingenuous to suggest that those slots were "free" eighty years ago, when in my view they very much had a cost, albeit largely an indirect one.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
Again, airports are PUBLIC facilities that are heavily paid for by tax dollars...not airline investments.

I strongly disagree. Airlines have, indeed, made massive investments over the years - not just monetary, but also political, etc. - in aviation infrastructure.

[Edited 2015-11-04 07:27:17]
 
Freshside3
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:46 pm

UA is gone from JFK. You now have some slots open there.
 
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hilram
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

And here I was, thinking that the Foundation block of Capitalism was free, unhindered competition. Alas - how wrong could I be!
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
It is absolutely fair to force the US3 and B6 to divest itself of NYC slots in the name of fair competition.
Quoting GEMUSER (Reply 6):
On the contrary IMHO this is the fairest thing to do.

It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

It's not about socialism, it's about competition. And that is VERY American.

People often forget that the intended protectees of rules and regulations like these are US, the flying public.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 16):
UA is gone from JFK. You now have some slots open there.

Delta and United performed a slot swap.

DL received all 17 of UA's JFK slots and UA got 8 EWR slots from DL.
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commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 17):
And here I was, thinking that the Foundation block of Capitalism was free, unhindered competition.

It's more than "unhindered competition" - it's also "unhindered competition" subject to a rules-based market system. Arbitrarily confiscating access from one competitor to reallocate it to another - which is what was suggested earlier in the thread - is hardly what I'd call "unhindered competition."
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
No, they're not, but the right of a company to use them is, indeed, an asset in every sense of the word - it has an established market value, and it can be bought, sold and traded.

Only because the government erroneously allowed this to happen which is highly unusual for a public asset. You wouldn't allow private people to buy up slots on a congested highway and block others from using the highway.

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
But if the holders of the slots are meeting those requirements, it would be travesty to confiscate them arbitrarily.

I don't think it should be arbitrarily done, but the slots should all be on leases that are periodically renewed. Allowing private companies to own public assets in perpetuity is a dangerous precedent.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Delta and United performed a slot swap.

DL received all 17 of UA's JFK slots and UA got 8 EWR slots from DL.

Should we read this to assume that EWR slots are roughly 2x as valuable as JFK slots?
 
bjorn14
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting kevintarmac (Reply 10):

I agree. The airlines should use ISP(even SWF) like WN did until they grow up in NYC and then move.
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LAXintl
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 22):
Should we read this to assume that EWR slots are roughly 2x as valuable as JFK slots?

No. Deal included other consideration including cash. We should have an idea of the amount once Q4 special items are announced at the next earnings call.
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Mir
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
It is absolutely fair to force the US3 and B6 to divest itself of NYC slots in the name of fair competition.

No, it's not. It's certainly fair to not allow airlines to trade slots the way UA and DL did, or to sell or lease slots, or to require that airlines actually use the slots they have. Airlines should certainly not get to pick who gets the use of slots that they aren't using properly. But to allow the government to arbitrarily decide that a certain airline has too many slots and that some can be taken away from them introduces far too much uncertainty and is bad for everyone involved.

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ec99
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
Doesn't seem to mention the largest carrier (or second largest depending on season) at JFK is B6

  

IMO, the best situation for the American consumer would be the growth of another major airline that could compete with the US4. Limiting B6s growth is the most effective way to prevent them from growing into a major airline that can provide competition on a nationwide basis. A few more flights to Seattle, Denver or Cleveland may have some impact on fares in NYC. B6s growth into a mainline carrier hopefully leads to competition and maybe reduced fares nationwide.

I have long thought in these slot controlled at capacity airports that the simplest option is to ban the use of anything smaller than an E-175 or E-190. You could argue that an airline flying a 50 seat CRJ is not making the best use of a slot when another airline could fly a 180 seat A320.
 
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macsog6
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:39 pm

It's not socialism. Go look at the economic definition. What is is, however, is the introduction of regulation back into the air carrier market. Simply a system of who gets to fly from here to there and when they get to do so. It would be the first step, IMHO, of re-regulating the market which would likely be a disaster given the other instances of market regulation we've seen in recent years, albeit in other industries.

We have affordable, safe, and dependable air transport with the present method. It does not seem sound to me to return to a system that failed to deliver one of those key elements to the flying public before.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
Again - not saying requirements about utilization should not be attached to these slots to ensure they're being used. I certainly advocate that. But if the holders of the slots are meeting those requirements, it would be travesty to confiscate them arbitrarily.

Looking at this as confiscation is wrongheaded, IMO. For the past decade, we have had a complete (and muilti-administration) failure to enforce the antitrust laws in airline mergers and other transactions (e.g. US/DL and various NYC-area slot swaps). The US/DL slot swap in particular drastically increased monopolization at both airports and should have come with significant reallocation of slots to new entrants or limited incumbents. Appropriate enforcement of competition law is not confiscation.
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commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
But to allow the government to arbitrarily decide that a certain airline has too many slots and that some can be taken away from them introduces far too much uncertainty and is bad for everyone involved.


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Quoting EC99 (Reply 26):
You could argue that an airline flying a 50 seat CRJ is not making the best use of a slot when another airline could fly a 180 seat A320.

You could argue that, but then - like with many of these types of issues - it really comes down to a question of what the outcome is that is deemed to be "in the public interest." Many of the markets reliant on those 50-80 seat regional jets are markets which like would have less service, if not no service at all, absent the ability to be served with aircraft that size. There are small and mid-size markets that would quite plausibly lose most if not all of their air service to airports like LGA and DCA if not for regional jets.

So is it "in the public interest" to prohibit the use of slots at LGA and DCA for flights with such aircraft, and thus risk some markets losing most or all of their air service, so that those slots can in turn be used by larger aircraft to - in all likelihood - add more flights in markets that already have it? I'm not arguing one way or another, but that is precisely the type of debate that needs to take place. Historically, in the post-deregulation environment, when market economics have tended to favor larger cities over smaller ones, anyway, politicians and bureaucrats have often (though not always) placed at least some "public interest" value on small and mid-size markets having access to places like LGA and DCA. We'll see if that continues, or if evolving attitudes mean that today another 737 or A320 to FLL, BNA, DTW, CHI, etc. is deemed more in the "public interest."

[Edited 2015-11-04 08:44:18]
 
commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
Looking at this as confiscation is wrongheaded, IMO. For the past decade, we have had a complete (and muilti-administration) failure to enforce the antitrust laws in airline mergers and other transactions (e.g. US/DL and various NYC-area slot swaps). The US/DL slot swap in particular drastically increased monopolization at both airports and should have come with significant reallocation of slots to new entrants or limited incumbents. Appropriate enforcement of competition law is not confiscation.

Once again, my statement was narrowly referencing an earlier comment about the confiscation - and that's absolutely what it is and would be - of slots from incumbent carriers for reallocation to competitors. As I've said repeatedly, it is entirely logical and fair - in my view - for there to be strong and strict utilization requirements placed on such scarce "public good" assets such as slots at constrained airports. And if carriers aren't adhering to those requirements, then I have no problem with them losing these slots. But if - as was earlier suggested - airlines are forced to "divest ... slots in the name of fair competition," and nothing else other than the entirely-arbitrary "fair competition," that to me would be a travesty, and a tragedy, and as someone else said, "bad for everyone involved."
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 30):
But if - as was earlier suggested - airlines are forced to "divest ... slots in the name of fair competition," and nothing else other than the entirely-arbitrary "fair competition," that to me would be a travesty, and a tragedy, and as someone else said, "bad for everyone involved."

Isn't that exactly what the antitrust laws call for in the context of a merger or other transaction?
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tortugamon
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:52 pm

Honestly who searches for airplane tickets in/out of NYC by plugging in individual airports? I think the vast majority plug in NYC. And if you look at NYC as a whole there are 6-7 active runways and over 200 gates. There is plenty of opportunity to compete. These airlines are looking for prime time slots. Ever been in LGA after 9pm? JFK/EWR in the early afternoon...Plenty of slots. Get rid of the curfew at LGA. Get the right number of gates at JFK. Improve ATC. There is plenty of room for everyone that wants to serve the city.

Making an airline divest in the name of fair competition is lunacy. It makes sense for merger approval but that is it.

Quoting EC99 (Reply 26):
I have long thought in these slot controlled at capacity airports that the simplest option is to ban the use of anything smaller than an E-175 or E-190. You could argue that an airline flying a 50 seat CRJ is not making the best use of a slot when another airline could fly a 180 seat A320.

I think some small towns with service to these airports might have a problem with that but there is something to be said for your idea.

tortugamon
 
commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
Isn't that exactly what the antitrust laws call for in the context of a merger or other transaction?

Once again - that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to an arbitrary - which I define as "precipitated by nothing other than political largess" - confiscation of slots for no other reason than "fair competition" (whatever that means).

If AA tomorrow wants to buy 200 slot pairs at JFK, that's one thing. But there is - in my view - absolutely no reasonable or logical (let alone legal) basis for simply saying, "AA (or Delta, or United, or JetBlue), we're now taking away your slots for no reason other than to give them to someone else because you have too many."

Put restrictions on the slots, place utilization requirements on the slots, put minimum aircraft size requirements on the slots, whatever. As long as everyone goes in eyes-wide-open on the consequences of that - both positive and negative - then fine. But don't take said slots away unless and until airlines fail to meet those restrictions and requirements. Otherwise - it is, indeed, confiscation - nothing more, nothing less.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
Again, airports are PUBLIC facilities that are heavily paid for by tax dollars...not airline investments.
Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
I strongly disagree.
Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
I strongly disagree. Airlines have, indeed, made massive investments over the years - not just monetary, but also political, etc. - in aviation infrastructure.

This is going to be a perpetual issue in aviation that is very similar to the two political parties. There are two ways to view limited airport resources in areas like NYC... private investment on public facilities has made this issue more complicated.

1) Free market - All slots to the highest bidder, this treats the slot resources and airport land as the high value real estate that it is, airfares will reflect this and if you want a super cheap flight, you make the trek out to SWF or ISP.

Problem: under the full free market (and no perimeter), you would have every airline running 10x LAX, SFO 15x BOS, CHI, MCO and FLL with the number of destinations suffering.

2) Public infrastructure - as publicly funded infrastructure (the capacity, aka runways and taxiways, is entirely publicly funded) and wit this approach every effort to maximize the public access (destinations) should be considered.

Problem: Many slots not being used and treated with the value that they really are.

The only REAL solution in my opinion is a hybrid of the two that gives the airlines the stable resources to make investments in terminals, but also maximizes access (think back to when US ran 20x DH8 on LGA-PHL).

Short or an "electoral collage" like alotment of slots to states (truest form of public access) one idea could be to allocate certain numbers of slots to be used at the various FAA airport size categories:

non-hub- 400,000 enplanements and smaller;
small hub 1.7 million enplanements and smaller,
medium hub - 6.2 million and smaller
large hub anything above that)

This method works for LGA and EWR for the most part, JFK and EWR would need "international" slots.

If you allocate 1/4 of the slots to each category you can ensure/promote public access while also allowing the airlines to best utilize their facilities. This hybrid solution would prevent the giant sucking sound of small and mid sized communities with LGA service should the perimeter rule ever go away.

There is no easy way to go about it, but if you go entirely one sided, the other size will have a strong case for political action.
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commavia
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 34):
There are two ways to view limited airport resources in areas like NYC... private investment on public facilities has made this issue more complicated.

Just to be clear - I was not "strongly disagreeing" that airports are "public facilities," and critical "public" infrastructure. On that I totally agree. I was only disagreeing with the statement that they are "not [paid for by] airline investments."

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 34):
1) Free market - All slots to the highest bidder, this treats the slot resources and airport land as the high value real estate that it is, airfares will reflect this and if you want a super cheap flight, you make the trek out to SWF or ISP.

Problem: under the full free market (and no perimeter), you would have every airline running 10x LAX, SFO 15x BOS, CHI, MCO and FLL with the number of destinations suffering.

2) Public infrastructure - as publicly funded infrastructure (the capacity, aka runways and taxiways, is entirely publicly funded) and wit this approach every effort to maximize the public access (destinations) should be considered.

Problem: Many slots not being used and treated with the value that they really are.

That is, essentially, the issue.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:05 pm

A possible solution to the slot problem might be using a fee incentive to encourage the airlines to increase plane size and reduce frequencies on "over-served" routes. Implementation would, of course, be arbitrary and unfair in the eyes of the incumbent slot-holders; but it could be done.

US's former 18 a day between LGA and PHL is maybe the most egregious example of slot misuse; but there are many other examples of "over-service".
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:07 pm

In light of the recent mega-mergers, I think it's only fair that the little guys have access to lucrative markets where the giants dominate. New York is the biggest market in the country, but its airports are constrained. Since AA, DL, UA and WN hold most of those slots, I believe there should be some divestment, as competition is also constrained. I am not in in favor of reallocating all slots, but certainly "some" should be made available for carriers like F9, NK and hopefully new carriers to offer service into NYC.
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:09 pm

In light of the recent mega-mergers, I think it's only fair that the little guys have access to lucrative markets where the giants dominate. New York is the biggest market in the country, but its airports are constrained; and since AA, DL, UA and WN hold most of those slots, I believe there should be some divestment, as competition is also constrained. I am not in in favor of reallocating all slots, but certainly "some" should be made available for carriers like F9, NK and hopefully new carriers to offer service into NYC.

[Edited 2015-11-04 09:11:19]
 
airliner371
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
Honestly who searches for airplane tickets in/out of NYC by plugging in individual airports?

Ummmm... I, a lifelong New Yorker, do.

If you're over in the Newark area, you're not going to go all the way to JFK, and if you're out on Long Island, you're not going to go all the way over to Newark, at least not under typical circumstances.

That's the magic of having 3 major airports in the NYC area, one is going to be most convenient for you. For me, LaGuardia is most convenient but when I need to fly international, I go to JFK. Unless I'm stuck and need to get home or out, Newark really isn't convenient for me.

All I'm saying is I rarely search "NYC," I'll usually have a specific airport in mind. But I'm just one of many New Yorkers.
 
ec99
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 29):
Many of the markets reliant on those 50-80 seat regional jets are markets which like would have less service, if not no service at all, absent the ability to be served with aircraft that size. There are small and mid-size markets that would quite plausibly lose most if not all of their air service to airports like LGA and DCA if not for regional jets.

There is certainly a strong argument to be made that it may be “in the public interest” to have two CRJ flights to Mid-size city X instead of two more A320 flights to LAX or DFW. I wonder what percentage of airports only connection to NYC is on regional jets. Upon further reflection, I think prohibiting regional jets probably is only reasonable to airports that also have a mainline connection to NYC.

As for the political angle, I am pretty agnostic on American politics, seeing value in the middle while also supporting the free market. Anyhow, what is happening here is just not socialism. The airports in question are owned by the Port Authority. Some people appear to be saying it is socialism for the owner of property to do with that property as they see fit. This makes no sense to me.
 
ty97
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 37):
In light of the recent mega-mergers, I think it's only fair that the little guys have access to lucrative markets where the giants dominate. New York is the biggest market in the country, but its airports are constrained. Since AA, DL, UA and WN hold most of those slots, I believe there should be some divestment, as competition is also constrained.

AA/US were forced to give up slots at LGA as part of their merger. Slots at DCA as well. The replacement slots went largely to Florida service, just like Frontier would run. There is tons of competition on those routes already.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 37):
Since AA, DL, UA and WN hold most of those slots

There is virtually zero chance that WN has more slots than B6 does in the NYC market. How many airlines would you say is fair?

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 38):
but certainly "some" should be made available for carriers like F9, NK and hopefully new carriers to offer service into NYC.

Its rare to hear 'service' and F9/NK in the same sentence but jokes aside, its not like they can't service the NYC market. They already do, they just want access to the most profitable times. Just because they rote a letter doesn't mean they should be given a handout. It would be different if there was a monopoly but there are 5 major airlines that are well represented in NYC and they have spent decade(s) building it. Redistribution of wealth isn't what free market capitalistic societies do it isn't like its a monopoly.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 39):
All I'm saying is I rarely search "NYC," I'll usually have a specific airport in mind. But I'm just one of many New Yorkers.

Its been my experience that many Manhattanites do is search NYC and then filter for their preferences. Surely if you are on long island you prefer JFK, and Jersey EWR (as you say) but the lion's share of the population is in the middle and I didn't say 'all' I said 'most'  

The point is they all tend to have their benefits and disadvantages and access to 1 isn't going to give you that much of an advantage over another, and there are plenty of slots to establishing a footing and grow with time. The airports and ATC can do better to give more access without taking money out of the 5 NYC operators' pockets.

tortugamon
 
airliner371
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:43 pm

WN, B6, VX and WS have all been able to get slots and expand in the NYC airports over the past few years. AS, F9, G4 and NK could have all gotten some slots had they put up the money for it like WN, B6, VX and WS have done.

I definitely agree there should be some changes. An 80% use it or lose it would be a great start.

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 37):
Since AA, DL, UA and WN hold most of those slots

Take WN out of that and put in B6. WN has grown in NYC over the past few years but they definitely don't hold nearly enough to put them on the same level as AA, DL, UA and B6 in NYC.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 42):
Redistribution of wealth isn't what free market capitalistic societies do it isn't like its a monopoly.

THANK YOU. PREACH!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
It is absolutely fair to force the US3 and B6 to divest itself of NYC slots in the name of fair competition.
Quoting GEMUSER (Reply 6):
On the contrary IMHO this is the fairest thing to do.

It's fair if you believe in socialism but that's not what America is.

Um, no. Trust me, I am as anti-Socialist as it gets. And unfortunately, right now America has a socialist president, so it kind of is what America is.

Forcing large airlines to give up slots when they have too much market power is not socialism, it's preventing monopoly/oligopoly power.
a.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting EC99 (Reply 40):
The airports in question are owned by the Port Authority. Some people appear to be saying it is socialism for the owner of property to do with that property as they see fit. This makes no sense to me.

No they are owned by the city and states in which they are in. They are operated by the port authority which is in-turn owned by New Jersey and New York.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 43):
An 80% use it or lose it would be a great start.

Great Point! There are so many common sense solutions like this that could be tried before you go to the extreme and start redistributing wealth.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
Um, no. Trust me, I am as anti-Socialist as it gets. And unfortunately, right now America has a socialist president, so it kind of is what America is.

So in the late 1970s were we all peanut farmers from GA? In the '80s were we all good looking actors who turned out to be solid statesmen with top down economic views, and in the 90s did we all cheat on our wives with interns, and in the 2000s did we all start making up our own words? Your statement is ridiculous.

tortugamon
 
airliner371
Posts: 2404
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
it's preventing monopoly/oligopoly power.

The problem with this is that NYC is not a monopoly/oligopoly. You have about 4 major carriers competing on many routes and sometimes even more on the bigger routes.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 46):
The problem with this is that NYC is not a monopoly/oligopoly. You have about 4 major carriers competing on many routes and sometimes even more on the bigger routes.

Exactly.

Interesting thought experiment: what is the smallest market - as measured by metro-metro O&D - from NYC that has less than three nonstop competitors? I'm thinking of all the major O&D markets in the U.S., and I'm struggling to come up with any that have less than three competitors. It's likely a very similar story for WAS metro.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 47):
what is the smallest market - as measured by metro-metro O&D - from NYC that has less than three nonstop competitors?

But then you also have places like PVD that as recently as 2000 had over 20 daily NYC flights, slowly dwindle down to the 4x EWR that exists today. The Acela is routinely full with fares often in excess of $300 R/T for the 3 hour trip. (Acela day trip for next Tuesday is just under $400).

With a good schedule and responsible fares (meaning, keeping in mind that a passenger can still drive to BOS and pay LESS, so not charging $800 to BOS's $200) that someone can make it work to LGA or JFK.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
User avatar
enilria
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RE: Small Airlines Want More EWR, LGA, JFK

Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
Certainly not the case for EWR. If UA wanted to run EWR at 100% O&D, they'd have to cut a lot of flights...particularly on the international side where many of the routes rely on connections to fill more than half the plane.

The fares at EWR are extremely high. If fares were reasonable the entire airport would be choked with just local traffic.

What I'm saying is that if you set up a system for award of slots from this pool (like they have with Air21) I would diverge on the traditional rules and disadvantage proposals that leverage the hub. For example, let's say you have three proposals for use of the slots:

1) EWR-MGM, CRJ-200, Forecast traffic 40 people, 23 connecting at EWR, average fare $250OW
2) EWR-MSP, 737-800, Forecast traffic 150 people, 78 connecting at EWR, average fare $245OW
3) EWR-IND, 737-800, Forecast traffic 150 people, 13 connecting at EWR, average fare $178 OW

Option 1 should be shot down as being a ridiculous waste of the slot asset.
Option 2 should be a secondary option to Option 3 because a) the fares are much higher and b) the passengers are connecting in EWR which is poor use of slots when there are plenty of airports to connect at without slots.
Option 3 if an option like this is available it should be first choice.

Also, keep in mind the Port of NY/NJ is primarily concerned with the economic development of the region. People connecting are of much less value to them than local traffic. So, they would also want this type of arrangement if they are smart.

If the airline does not meet their forecast on local traffic or fares when the slots go back up, there should be some sort of penalty applied in the following year. Maybe they use a point system.

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 27):
It's not socialism.

It's not. These airlines no more own the right to land than you own the right to a spot on Highway 216 on the way to work. Airports and airspace are infrastructure owned by the government. There are no leases between the airlines and the government for the use of airspace. It's all just squatting and grandfathering. There's no contract and no ownership of the air or a piece of the runway.

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