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readytotaxi
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UK Sharm El Sheikh Flights Suspended.

Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:04 pm

Breaking news, all flight from the UK have been suspended from now.
BBC News, update to follow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34724604

[Edited 2015-11-04 09:06:00]

Flights to the UK are being held on the ground due to security issues.


[Edited 2015-11-04 09:07:45]

http://www.gov.uk/government/news/si...harm-el-sheikh


size=-4>[Edited 2015-11-04 09:10:28]

[Edited 2015-11-04 09:10:49]

[Edited 2015-11-04 09:58:27]
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tortugamon
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:12 pm

Seems like overkill. Wonder if they know something we don't.

tortugamon
 
lancelot07
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:13 pm

The article says DELAYED, not stopped completely.
 
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readytotaxi
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 2):

Correct, I said suspended.
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uta999
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:16 pm

UK government suspect a bomb downed the Russian A321

Also the poor security at Sharm behind the move.

UK experts to look at security there.
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enilria
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
Wonder if they know something we don't.
Quoting uta999 (Reply 4):
UK government suspect a bomb downed the Russian A321

I suspect the same, despite the concern over leaking rudder hydraulic fluid.
 
lancelot07
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 3):
Correct, I said suspended.

correct, but not in the title.  
Quoting uta999 (Reply 4):
UK government suspect a bomb downed the Russian A321

Do they ? Or is it just precaution ?
 
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Richard28
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:21 pm

BBC link now says this is because 'more information has come to light'
 
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enilria
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 7):
BBC link now says this is because 'more information has come to light'
Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I suspect the same, despite the concern over leaking rudder hydraulic fluid.

You know what's odd. They almost always hype the terror angle from day 1, but on this crash they pushed the focus onto mechanical failure in the opening stages based upon what turned out to be ZERO information leading that direction. It appears this has changed.

This is an interesting development politically because it now probably gives Russia further justification to be involved against ISIS. It's sort of the exact opposite of MH17 which politically discouraged Russia from being involved in Ukraine. Airplane crashes are now at the crux of global conflicts. I guess 9/11 is the model for military action justified by plane crashes. I guess it's a modern outgrowth of the RMS Lusitania. Hopefully there aren't that many parallels.
 
threepoint
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 6):
correct, but not in the title.

The word usage was correct. Can we focus on the contents of the story, rather than the minutiae of how it was posted?
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nema
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:52 pm

So our government suspended the UK flights as a "precautionary measure" after "more information has come to light".

I wonder from what source? After all, i assume were not linked or involved at this stage in the investigation of the flight recorders etc.
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lancelot07
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 9):
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/af...plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

Still declared as "precautionary", but ....

Bodies of passengers in the back are said to show "explosive trauma", with pieces of metal in them.
 
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readytotaxi
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 11):

I guess that now the bodies are back in Russia and a full autopsy has been done, their findings lead them to think that there was a blast "of some kind", and this has been passed to the UK. The UK then decided what they think is best for them in this fluid situation.
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lancelot07
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 12):

They think there was a blast of some kind in the back section of the plane, but not in the front section.
And until now, they have not found any residue of explosives.
 
B777LRF
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:27 pm

It is not unreasonable to suggest, that someone from a department starting with MI was dispatched from the embassy in Cairo, to have a look at the security set-up in Sharm. It is also not unreasonable to suggest said person found the set-up to be of questionable standards, and reported same to home office. If home office were also looking at information to suggest foul play, putting two and two together and taking the necessary precautions, does seem like a rather sensible idea.

I'm fairly certain the utterly inept Egyptian authorities are having kittens right now; their main - if not only - concern is restoration of tourism in Egypt. Having a bomb making it through security in Sharm and going off on an aircraft, is a sure-fire way of ensuring any such efforts will be shot to pieces.

News that the UK have suspended flights over security concerns is very nearly as bad, considering the swaths of UK residents usually flocking to the Egyptian Red Sea resorts.
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richierich
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
This is an interesting development politically because it now probably gives Russia further justification to be involved against ISIS. It's sort of the exact opposite of MH17 which politically discouraged Russia from being involved in Ukraine. Airplane crashes are now at the crux of global conflicts. I guess 9/11 is the model for military action justified by plane crashes. I guess it's a modern outgrowth of the RMS Lusitania. Hopefully there aren't that many parallels.

I agree...the common denominator of all of these incidents (if the MetroJet crash was not an accident) is that innocent men, women and families, most of whom were not involved in on-going conflict in any way, die in an unbelievably violent manner. Terrorism is hardly new, of course, but tt's very sad that our world can be such a disgusting place sometimes.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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enilria
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 15):
I agree...the common denominator of all of these incidents (if the MetroJet crash was not an accident) is that innocent men, women and families, most of whom were not involved in on-going conflict in any way, die in an unbelievably violent manner. Terrorism is hardly new, of course, but tt's very sad that our world can be such a disgusting place sometimes.

I guess there's also KAL007. It would seem nobody has clean hands on these things either.

History often tells a different story. The wiki on the RMS Lusitania is an interesting read. UK was transporting weapons on it, daring the Germans to sink it and then denied the weapons, and claimed they targeted civilians dragging the USA into the war. The use of your own sheeple as pawns is beyond dastardly.
 
lancelot07
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
I guess there's also KAL007.

KAL 007, MH 17, the Iran Air A300 and the Ustica case (if it was indeed a missile) were accidently shot down. They all were mistaken for military airplanes or spy planes.

If this here tuns out to have been shot down by a missile launched by terrorists, it is very different - intentionally shooting at a civilian airliner is something new.
 
factsonly
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:44 pm

The Netherlands Government has just released a message that no Dutch airlines will fly to/from SSH at least until Sunday 8 November.
 
Andy33
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
On another note, is it not lost on anybody else that Airbus aircraft seem to be involved in these mysterious situations inordinately frequently? Malaysia X2, Air Asia 1X, Kolavia 1X.

Which two mysterious situations involved Airbus aircraft operated by Malaysia?
The 1983 A300 accident at Kuala Lumpur isn't mysterious, and everyone survived to tell their tales.
The recent MH17 and MH370 incidents both involved Boeing 772-ERs.
I can find details of an accident on MH involving a 732, and another with a Fokker 50, but that's all.
 
birdbrainz
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
Having a bomb making it through security in Sharm and going off on an aircraft, is a sure-fire way of ensuring any such efforts will be shot to pieces.

Indeed. It would bring down any hope of restoring Egypt's once high-flying tourism industry, so to speak.
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factsonly
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:13 pm

Ireland's IAA directs Irish airlines not to operate to/from Sharm el‐Sheikh or in Sinai Peninsula airspace until further notice.
 
CaliAtenza
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:18 pm

If it was a bomb placed by the ISIS affiliate in Sinai, then they may have signed their own death warrants.
 
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enilria
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 19):
KAL 007, MH 17, the Iran Air A300 and the Ustica case (if it was indeed a missile) were accidently shot down. They all were mistaken for military airplanes or spy planes.
He continued, saying that "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use."[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 22):
Which two mysterious situations involved Airbus aircraft operated by Malaysia?
Quoting Andy33 (Reply 22):
The recent MH17 and MH370 incidents both involved Boeing 772-ERs.

Sorry, my mistake...
 
coolian2
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
On another note, is it not lost on anybody else that Airbus aircraft seem to be involved in these mysterious situations inordinately frequently? Malaysia X2, Air Asia 1X, Kolavia 1X.

50% of those incidents to you've cited happened to Boeing aircraft.

Considering the effective duopoly Boeing and Airbus have, simply speaking it makes sense.
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richierich
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:26 pm

So the real question concerns whether or not the UK government knows anything more than we do OR is this being done out of an abundance of caution?

To me, not having any inside knowledge of course, the chances that this aircraft had a technical failure that caused this kind of catastrophic inflight breakup is kind of remote but we know it can happen. I don't believe any Airbus A320-family airliner has had any sort of inflight breakup to this point. Given the turbulent nature of the area (Sharm-el-Sheik had the hotel bombings a few years ago) and rising tensions against Russia's involvement in Syria, it seems a pretty large coincidence that this happened.

[Edited 2015-11-04 13:33:08]
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
daring the Germans to sink it and then denied the weapons

Woah there! The UK government undoubtedly covered up the presence of munitions onboard the RMS Lusitania until very recently iirc. But that's a long way from the notion of using it as a sacrificial lamb, which is well into the realm of conspiracy theory, and one of the dafter ones IMO.

I can't see any state actor has a vested interest in downing a Russian bucket and spade flight, and given the actions taken by western governments tonight which strongly point towards a bomb, it's hard to look beyond either Egyptian ISIS, Syrian ISIS, or, less likely, separatists from the North Caucasus. Nasty.
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EIDL
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:48 pm

The IAA are banning Irish AOC owners from the area. The AAIU are involved in the investigation as country of registration (and more competent than the Egyptian authorities for one...) but whether the IAA action is based on info from them or just copying the UK CAA I've no idea.
 
A320ajm
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting nema (Reply 10):
I wonder from what source? After all, i assume were not linked or involved at this stage in the investigation of the flight recorders etc.

I imagine security and intelligence sources, especially if it is suspected to be terrorism related. Perhaps 'chatter' related to the incident?

A320ajm
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Chaostheory
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 27):
The AAIU are involved in the investigation as country of registration (and more competent than the Egyptian authorities for one...)


Don't make all encompassing statements when you don't know better.

I'll have you know the chaps running the investigation on the Egyptian side are well qualified and competent.

Go and read their report on the 777 cockpit fire if you don't believe me.
 
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PW100
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:14 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
The Netherlands Government has just released a message that no Dutch airlines will fly to/from SSH at least until Sunday 8 November

Small clarification: no Dutch flights are/were planned until this Sunday. The government will monitor further developments and decide before Sunday if the flight planned for that day will be allowed.
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AAMDanny
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:29 pm

I think after what happened to the British tourist's in Tunisia this summer, the UK Government are not taking anything to chance. They must have intel that they have not released yet.
 
tortugamon
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:31 pm

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 29):
I'll have you know the chaps running the investigation on the Egyptian side are well qualified and competent.

Go and read their report on the 777 cockpit fire if you don't believe me.

Yes, read that, and whatever you do don't read the ECAA's report on Egypt Air 990.

tortugamon
 
Chaostheory
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
Yes, read that, and whatever you do don't read the ECAA's report on Egypt Air 990.

That report had more to do with cultural and social differences than it did with competence.

Besides, the investigators in charge of the current op had nothing to do with that.
 
kdhurst380
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:44 pm

It seems a bit overkill, but at the same time, I've experienced first hand security at Sharm, and it is pretty lax for somewhere that's considered high risk.

I'm due to go in July and personally have no reservations about going again, the Egyptian people are incredibly hospitable.

Also, could I suggest a title edit? It is Sharm El Sheikh (I'm sure this is just a mistake on the part of the OP!)
 
tortugamon
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 33):
That report had more to do with cultural and social differences than it did with competence.
Besides, the investigators in charge of the current op had nothing to do with that.

I think it had a lot to do with hurting Egypt Air & Egyptian tourism as well. Factors are present here as well.

tortugamon
 
EIDL
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Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 29):

Don't make all encompassing statements when you don't know better.

I'll have you know the chaps running the investigation on the Egyptian side are well qualified and competent.

Go and read their report on the 777 cockpit fire if you don't believe me.

After MS990, the Egyptian investigators cannot be trusted ever again, basically. Politically require reporting is all we can expect.

A competent investigator isn't going to allow their name go on a report that clearly fake, to stop the 'cultural' argument.

[Edited 2015-11-04 15:21:35]
 
prebennorholm
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 21):
Ireland's IAA directs Irish airlines not to operate to/from Sharm el‐Sheikh or in Sinai Peninsula airspace until further notice.

The pictures of shrapnel holes out of the aft fuselage didn't arrive here until after office hours. Therefore a ban on Sham flights must wait until tomorrow.

If there isn't an EU wide ban on Thursday morning, then I would bet a farm on the fact that at least Denmark joins the UK, Ireland and Netherlands in the morning hours.

Sham used to be a rather popular charter destination with flights from both CPH and BLL.
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BaconButty
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:29 am

Quoting EIDL (Reply 36):
After MS990, the Egyptian investigators cannot be trusted ever again, basically. Politically require reporting is all we can expect.

It happened in 1999. We were still hoping the Star Wars prequels might be good. As opposed to now when . . . never mind.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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777Jet
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 19):
KAL 007, MH 17, the Iran Air A300 and the Ustica case (if it was indeed a missile) were accidently shot down. They all were mistaken for military airplanes or spy planes.

He continued, saying that "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use."[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

  

Also, we are no where close to being able to say that MH17 was "accidently shot down"...
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texdravid
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting EIDL (Reply 36):

I completely agree that Egyptian investigators can never again be trusted after the abominable co-pilot of MS 990 and his suicide/homicide act.

I hope that this incident hits Egypt where they will hurt badly----tourism.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:30 am

The U.K. Foreign Office has now advised against all but essential travel to SSH airport. They actually say the resort itself is safe just not the airport.

However it's in essence the same as travel insurance will be invalid so no one will go holiday even if they wanted to. No guidelines yet on how long this is expected to last.

Obviously it appears necessary but what a blow for Egyptian tourism.

http://news.sky.com/story/1581952/uk...-sharm-flights-amid-jet-bomb-fears
 
rbavfan
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):

Its been reported they have satellite heat images showing large heat spots on the airliner.
 
lancelot07
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
He continued, saying that "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use."[37]

Boeing 707 were used as spy planes.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 39):
Also, we are no where close to being able to say that MH17 was "accidently shot down"...

Rebels bragged about shooting down an Ukrainian military transport plane after the fact, before it became known it was MH17.
In all cases, of course shooting was intentional, the accidental part is the mistaken identity of the target.
 
B777LRF
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:55 am

Quoting Chaostheory (Reply 29):
Don't make all encompassing statements when you don't know better.

I'll have you know the chaps running the investigation on the Egyptian side are well qualified and competent.

Go and read their report on the 777 cockpit fire if you don't believe me.

Would that be the same agency who, looking at evidence clearly showing the engine master switches were placed in the 'off' position, the FO control column being pushed fully forward whilst he's heard mumbling 'I place my trust in God', decided the cause of the accident was a rudder hard-over followed by LOC?

Wouldn't trust them any further than I can throw a grand piano which, just to make it clear, is not very far at all!

The 777 cockpit fire was utterly uncontroversial, in that it didn't involve foul play, and therefore the Egyptian authorities had no pressing need to cover anything up.

This accident is very different, and if the 'wrong' conclusions are reached it may very well spell another disaster for Egyptian tourism. We should therefore expect them to do whatever they can to do a cover-up job, and file as the reason for the disaster something, ANYTHING, that doesn't point a finger at security lapses in Sharm.
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jamesontheroad
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:24 am

This morning's BBC Radio bulletins across various networks have included comments from British tourists who recently returned from Sharm. They described (albeit retrospectively) the ease with which one could simply walk around additional luggage screening at the terminal entrance, and the way in which non-travelling individuals appeared able to walk theough security unchecked.
 
nema
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:51 am

As we are now living in a vastly different world of increased terrorist threats, it is quite alarming to hear of the numbers of people joining their ranks. We have to be realistic and consider that If not already, its only a matter of time before some of these fanatics get jobs as airport ground crews air side and gradually start figuring out methods to bypass security to place fatal devices in the cargo hold.
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directorguy
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:32 am

It's high time that someone does something about the security situation at airports in Egypt.
I have traveled many times in and out of Egyptian airports and generally, it's all about the appearance. At CAI, to enter the terminal, you must put your luggage through an X-ray machine, and show your passport+ticket to an officer. Officer doesn't really look at the screen. Once you enter the terminal, you walk a bit, then go through another luggage x-ray checkpoint. There, you are subjected to a pat down but not really requested to empty pockets, take off shoes etc. Children, women, and elderly people are very likely to be waived through. After check-in and passport control, security is done at the boarding gate (this is the case at Terminals 1 & 3 at Cairo International). At T3 in particular, checks are more stringent.
I do not recall the specific procedures at SSH particularly for Europe-bound international flights, but for domestic flights it is usually a half-hearted attempt. You can easily go through if you have a fake ticket.
Egyptian airports also have a crowd management problem. Particularly people dropping off friends and family at departures, and then picking them up at arrivals. At peak times there is a lot of chaos at the entry points into the terminal themselves.

There are plenty of loopholes in the security set-up at Egyptian airports, but unfortunately, given the work culture at the government/police/interior ministry, it is less about accountability and more about sweeping things under the rug, occasionally offering up a high-ranking official at the altar of a public sacrifice. Last summer, in 38C heat, in Ramadan, airport authorities decided to ramp up security (don't recall the reason) and they had passengers line up with their bags outside the terminal to get in for 30+ minutes, which of course is unacceptable. Really hope that they re-design security but in a user-friendly manner that doesn't make it unpleasant for people.
 
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aerorobnz
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Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:40 am

It seems logical until we have a determined cause.
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lancelot07
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RE: UK Sharm El Sheikh Flights Suspended.

Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting directorguy (Reply 47):

I wonder how this will affect other airports in the area, such as DXB or AUH or even IST.
What can happen in SSH can happen there, too. And it is not beyond thought that eventually it can happen in Europe.

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