Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PITrules
Topic Author
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:40 am

That's the rumor in another forum; to have a hub at ILN with ABX Air playing a major part. Rumor coincides with this:
http://wnewsj.com/news/4623/lgstx-services-moves-cargo-for-aerosmith

ABX has in fact been operating ILN-ABE/ONT on a daily basis for a couple weeks now, even on Sat/Sun

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ABX3102

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ATN3001

ABE and ONT are major Amazon fulfilment centers.

NAC is also rumored to have a part. They have been operating SBD-BFI-BOI-SBD, again on a daily basis for the past couple weeks.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...2/history/20151104/2100Z/KSBD/KBFI

Perhaps that's all anecdotal coincidences, but Amazon has been very public about their displeasure about having to rely on FedEx and UPS.
FLYi
 
catiii
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:24 am

If Amazon can run the package business better than FedEx or UPS, have at it. I'm betting they cannot though.
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Perhaps that's all anecdotal coincidences, but Amazon has been very public about their displeasure about having to rely on FedEx and UPS.

This is laughable.

If Amazon thinks they can run a better overnight/express package network than FedEx, they're fooling themselves pretty badly. ESPECIALLY with ABX Air at the helm--Yikes.
Now you're flying smart
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:47 am

Plus how are they gonna deliever it to the door once they fly to the city? FedEx and UPS.


Won't mind at all if Amazon starts their own courier service though. More ccompetition for FedEx and UPS.

[Edited 2015-11-04 20:48:35]
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):

Plus how are they gonna deliever it to the door once they fly to the city?

Drones?   

OnTrac?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
hz747300
Posts: 2417
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:58 am

Would be fun. I don't know for sure exactly how it started, but it would seem to be similar to SF Airlines in China/HK. I always thought of SF as a delivery center only, but in my office a lot of the stuff like pens and notepads are branded SF too. Then I listening to LiveATC, it seems they have an airline now too dedicated to shuffling around to their fulfillment centers. Could be similar with Amazon.

More fun would be Amazon launching an ULCC with the ability to watch TV on Amazon, or order off Amazon in a touchscreen seat back TV. (the more you order, the bigger the discount off your next trip!).
Keep on truckin'...
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:02 am

Perhaps it's just for peak season as a relief valve?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3223
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:04 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Perhaps that's all anecdotal coincidences, but Amazon has been very public about their displeasure about having to rely on FedEx and UPS.

Have not heard this, with the amount of packaging Amazon sends out every day you would think UPS/Fedex would bend over backwards to keep them happy.

Quoting catiii (Reply 1):

If Amazon can run the package business better than FedEx or UPS, have at it. I'm betting they cannot though.

They are trying in a limited ways.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 2):
If Amazon thinks they can run a better overnight/express package network than FedEx, they're fooling themselves pretty badly. ESPECIALLY with ABX Air at the helm--Yikes.
Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):
Plus how are they gonna deliever it to the door once they fly to the city? FedEx and UPS.

Won't mind at all if Amazon starts their own courier service though. More competition for FedEx and UPS.

They already have, it's called Amazon Prime Now, it's available in limited markets right now, however, Amazon have managed to shot themselves in the foot by classifying the drivers as independent contractors when they fall into the employee status according to California law.

Anyways, I can see the need for an internal airline if only for shuttling employees between Amazon distribution centers and moving high value stock in a rush situation.
 
Falcon Flyer
Posts: 1150
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2000 12:10 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:05 am

NAC is also rumored to have a part. They have been operating SBD-BFI-BOI-SBD, again on a daily basis for the past couple weeks.

I noticed that and was wondering why NAC was running that flight.
My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:06 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):

ABE and ONT are major Amazon fulfilment centers.

Pretty sure the new center at SBD is actually a lot bigger than whatever they have going on at ONT.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 2):

This is laughable.

If Amazon thinks they can run a better overnight/express package network than FedEx, they're fooling themselves pretty badly. ESPECIALLY with ABX Air at the helm--Yikes.

A challenge for sure, but I wouldn't say laughable. Amazon didn't get where they are by being morons.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4760
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:06 am

Maybe peak season reduce prices by getting the items closer ? I would think still arrives by other carrier just Amazon bulk mails them from closer. Kind of similar to FedEx parcel post or whatever the value option is where the post office actually delivers FedEx just gets it close
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 9):
A challenge for sure, but I wouldn't say laughable. Amazon didn't get where they are by being morons.

You're right, they're certainly not stupid...I just find it very hard to believe that they'd find it to be a good idea. Chartering extra capacity for peak season is one thing, but insourcing freight flying beyond that type of setup strikes me as rather absurd.
Now you're flying smart
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3480
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 7):
Have not heard this, with the amount of packaging Amazon sends out every day you would think UPS/Fedex would bend over backwards to keep them happy.

We do, trust me.

The amount of volume from Amazon we process at UPS is staggering. I mean honestly you wouldn't believe how many pieces a day we get from them in just my small building. For them to do their own deliveries on even a small scale would require a massive infrastructure investment. Could they do it? Sure. At a cost advantage to using UPS and FedEx? Probably not. They're already paying bare bones rates.

What I can see them doing is moving some of their own volume from distribution centers to MEM and SDF to cut costs, rather than paying FedEx or UPS to do the flying. They already do this on the ground.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7284
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:41 am

Interesting, imaigne Amazon with a fleet of small-ish aircraft (no bigger than ATR or Dassault Falcon) for their densest/largest regions with quadcopters (those things are not drones, just large toys, but thats another thread) as feeders.

Thats a great way to cut out the minute man but a huge up-front investment that may not pay out in the long run.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8980
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 1):

If Amazon can run the package business better than FedEx or UPS, have at it. I'm betting they cannot though.


Well, it's never a good idea to sell those guys short. When you realize that Amazon Web Services dwarfs and destroys longtime players like IBM and HP, and allegedly good consultants, you realize that they have the ability to bring the very best people in-house and incentivize them and inspire them and listen to them and try new ideas over and over until they get it right, after which they try even-newer stuff. The work ethic among Amazon folks is quite incredible, and they don't dawdle about implementing anything. And their culture doesn't punish failure -- they try their hand at handsets, and bomb. They tweak and still bomb. Then they move along. But the willingness to try and fail and try again is the essence of capitalism.

Here in New York City, their in-house package delivery, which takes the stuff from the warehouses around the Northeast and gets the stuff delivered by the USPS, is completely kicking FedEx and UPS's asses, particularly for home delivery. Same thing on Long Island. It comes faster, more reliably, and is delivered by my mailman much, much earlier in the day than either of the competitors. There is no question that they can absolutely run the business better than their vendors, at least in limited areas (but some BIG limited areas). They also make FedEx Smartpost look like idiots. A package that arrives at Smartpost in Edison on a Monday doesn't get given to the USPS until Wednesday at the earliest, and then often not soon enough to make the day's mail. A package that arrives at Amazon's distribution center in the northeast makes it to the USPS for delivery THAT DAY. They're killing it.

[Edited 2015-11-04 23:52:45]
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8980
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:26 am

Now that I've read the posts above, I have to say that I haven't read such knowledgeless drivel from some of our members in a long time. "How are they going to deliver it?" Really? (Of course, some of our members have some great posts above, but there are some real eye-rollers up there.)

You guys can mock all you want. Meanwhile, I will happily be receiving my free-Sunday-delivery packages from Amazon via the USPS, which does residential last-mile delivery better than anyone.

Also, as to ABX Air, Airborne was a great, great company for business delivery, which was it's primary business. Their ability to do certain missions was legendary. At one point, they were responsible for delivering basically every film print to movie theatres around the country, and they had that business because they were the only ones the film industry trusted to do it right every time. They did the initial iPhone rollout flawlessly. Residential wasn't their thing, so most people whose interaction with the logistics business is getting a new disk drive delivered from Newegg.com to their Mommy's house isn't really in a position to comment on them. DHL ruined their operation, plain and simple, through arrogance and stupidity, in my view. They were the first to do affordable residential delivery in a partnership with the USPS, by years, and were mocked by some for it. Of course now every big player has a significant business doing just that.

I don't think that Amazon plans to take everything away from FedEx and UPS. But where they can reorganize things so reliability is better and price is lower, they will. And they will also implement all sorts of outside-the-box ideas to see how they work. If this is one, I for one think it's cool. And ABX will have no trouble running a cross-dock operation, which is all they are admitting to doing. They still have myriad contracts with the USPS to do exactly this, because they do it better than most.

[Edited 2015-11-04 23:32:56]

[Edited 2015-11-04 23:55:01]

[Edited 2015-11-04 23:57:16]
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8980
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
We do, trust me.

Yes you do. The investment that UPS made last Christmas to prove they can scale the operation was staggering, and they were willing to take a profitability hit to restore their reputation as a great logistics provider. It's amazing how much manual work is involved in routing packages at UPS, and how knowledgeable the people at SDF had to be to make that happen. By getting the computer to more of the thinking, UPS truly improved the scaleability of its service, which is critical in the peak. But Amazon is still smarting from the shutdown that left stuff undelivered when many people on the ground at UPS were willing to work on Christmas to make sure that Bobby got his toy truck from Santa. Shutting down was a tough decision that I think went the wrong way, and I'm not sure that everyone believed that employee morale was the reason for it. I know a fair number of UPS people who still feel really bad that they weren't allowed to get the stuff to the Christmas tree in time when they were willing to bust their asses to do so, which is a testament to them.

[Edited 2015-11-04 23:42:54]
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):
Plus how are they gonna deliever it to the door once they fly to the city? FedEx and UPS.
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
their in-house package delivery, which takes the stuff from the warehouses around the Northeast and gets the stuff delivered by the USPS, is completely kicking FedEx and UPS's asses
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
You guys can mock all you want. Meanwhile, I will happily be receiving my free-Sunday-delivery packages from Amazon via the USPS, which does residential last-mile delivery better than anyone.

Not Amazon but along similar lines, I've had packages from eBay's Global Shipping Programme in Kentucky get carried by FedEx from the seller to the GSP dispatch office, then by FedEx to Sydney... where somebody there puts them in the post.

It'd be cheaper if it just came USPS / Australia Post the whole way, but still. So if Amazon can utilise their own air service to get bulk shipments into the right part of the country and then do the last mile with an established and experienced residential delivery network... why not? It's not like they don't have years of data showing destination areas and shipment volume in pretty fine detail.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6270
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
We do, trust me.

Amazon is a HUGE customer of UPS, and FedEx. Like most huge customers, they get preferential treatment and rates.

I live full-time in an RV and move my location every few days to couple weeks. I use a mail forwarding service in Texas as my residence. USPS sends a special 18-wheeler 53' trailer out to the location to take the mail every day. They do several tons of USPS Priority mail each day. UPS and FedEx both have dedicated trucks loaded with incoming items for the service at their Houston distribution centers each day, and a scheduled dedicated pickup from the mail forwarding service each evening. The companies do their best for big customers.

Neither UPS or FedEx or even USPS is 'bad' at shipping. But when the volume of packages needed to be moved doubles, some places even triples, the standard shipping estimates don't work.

The on-line retailers know that, but promise you deliver by X date, even when they know the shippers don't have the lift capacity to get everyone's packages delivered on-time.

I've been an Amazon Prime customer since they started the service. And I've gone back to Amazon and gotten refunds, partial discounts, etc - because they shipping estimates during the holiday season are unrealistic. When Amazon tells me that a package ordered on December 18 will be delivered in two days - that is BS. It will only be delivered on that schedule if they ship it next morning air - which they don't normally. Though after some strong complaints, Amazon has upgraded the shipping on my orders without my having to pay the higher rates. Maybe my account is flagged.

I strongly urge folks to not take the 'it's UPS fault' BS excuse from on-line retailers. I doubt they will ever learn to adjust their delivery estimates during highest volume times, because the most customers will by their lame excuses.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
Here in New York City, their in-house package delivery, which takes the stuff from the warehouses around the Northeast and gets the stuff delivered by the USPS, is completely kicking FedEx and UPS's asses, particularly for home delivery. Same thing on Long Island. It comes faster, more reliably, and is delivered by my mailman much, much earlier in the day than either of the competitors. There is no question that they can absolutely run the business better than their vendors, at least in limited areas (but some BIG limited areas).

Large urban areas offer cost saving delivery opportunities for major on-line vendors like Amazon. Mainly because there is year round volume to maintain the costs of the infrastructure. But for the vast majority of the country - it simply isn't cost effective.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 16):
The investment that UPS made last Christmas to prove they can scale the operation was staggering, and they were willing to take a profitability hit to restore their reputation as a great logistics provider.

Despite that all of my prime packages via UPS were delayed. USPS made it on time or early with multiple packages. I will say the UPS gift cards to make up for the lateness was nice but still....
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5184
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
That's the rumor in another forum; to have a hub at ILN with ABX Air playing a major part. Rumor coincides with this:
http://wnewsj.com/news/4623/lgstx-services-moves-cargo-for-aerosmith

ABX has in fact been operating ILN-ABE/ONT on a daily basis for a couple weeks now, even on Sat/Sun

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ABX3102

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ATN3001

ABE and ONT are major Amazon fulfilment centers.

I'd wondered why ILN had come to life all of a sudden on FlightAware. Figured they were maintenance positioning flights of some sort. That would be big for Wilmington, which was ravaged when things moved to CVG.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2363
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:44 pm

Someone should check the Amazon.com job postings, that often gives stuff away.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6993
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
Here in New York City, their in-house package delivery, which takes the stuff from the warehouses around the Northeast and gets the stuff delivered by the USPS, is completely kicking FedEx and UPS's asses, particularly for home delivery. Same thing on Long Island. It comes faster, more reliably, and is delivered by my mailman much, much earlier in the day than either of the competitors.
Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 7):
They already have, it's called Amazon Prime Now, it's available in limited markets right now

I think these get to the heart of what Amazon might be up to -- either they figure that they can get items from their remote distribution centers to the local hand-off to USPS more cheaply/quickly, or they're going to use the delivery infrastructure they're already starting to build up with Prime Now.
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 22):

Love amazon prime. The distribution center in IND is across the street from my office.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3480
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
Here in New York City, their in-house package delivery, which takes the stuff from the warehouses around the Northeast and gets the stuff delivered by the USPS, is completely kicking FedEx and UPS's asses, particularly for home delivery. Same thing on Long Island. It comes faster, more reliably, and is delivered by my mailman much, much earlier in the day than either of the competitors. There is no question that they can absolutely run the business better than their vendors, at least in limited areas (but some BIG limited areas). They also make FedEx Smartpost look like idiots. A package that arrives at Smartpost in Edison on a Monday doesn't get given to the USPS until Wednesday at the earliest, and then often not soon enough to make the day's mail. A package that arrives at Amazon's distribution center in the northeast makes it to the USPS for delivery THAT DAY. They're killing it.

I can't speak for FedEx, but I know we deliver our SurePost packages to the post office first thing in the morning. Usually in the city the post office has the packages before most of our Next Day Air customers. What they do with it from there is their business. Usually it takes 24 hours. Amazon most likely drops their stuff at the post office much earlier in the day.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
You guys can mock all you want. Meanwhile, I will happily be receiving my free-Sunday-delivery packages from Amazon via the USPS, which does residential last-mile delivery better than anyone.

No, they really don't. They don't have the capacity for large parcels like we do. You mark my words, this years peak issues will be with the postal service. They have the capacity to do the mail. They don't have the capacity to absorb a ton of small package type pieces.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 16):
It's amazing how much manual work is involved in routing packages at UPS, and how knowledgeable the people at SDF had to be to make that happen. By getting the computer to more of the thinking, UPS truly improved the scaleability of its service, which is critical in the peak.

I didn't appreciate the scale until I started working for UPS. It's pretty amazing what goes into getting your package from Point A to Point B.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 16):
But Amazon is still smarting from the shutdown that left stuff undelivered when many people on the ground at UPS were willing to work on Christmas to make sure that Bobby got his toy truck from Santa. Shutting down was a tough decision that I think went the wrong way, and I'm not sure that everyone believed that employee morale was the reason for it. I know a fair number of UPS people who still feel really bad that they weren't allowed to get the stuff to the Christmas tree in time when they were willing to bust their asses to do so, which is a testament to them.

Employee morale wasn't the problem. Our employees are highly motivated, and care about the customer. But we simply just can not absorb an infinite amount of packages on one day. The problem is shippers offering the "Guaranteed by Christmas" on December 22nd and thinking it's possible to send an unlimited amount of packages through the system without consequence. Yes we can absorb a lot of packages in peak due to all the extra lift. But there is a limit.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Neither UPS or FedEx or even USPS is 'bad' at shipping. But when the volume of packages needed to be moved doubles, some places even triples, the standard shipping estimates don't work.

Not necessarily. Even doubling really isn't an issue. The scale isn't necessarily linear. You will always have extra lift capacity built into the system for the slow times because you need packages to go where they need to go. I could probably absorb a 100% increase in pickups today and not have a major issue in finding capacity. The issues become when all that capacity comes at one shot on one day in every building in the system. Ground packages we can move pretty easily. When everything is Next Day Air on December 23rd. You're going to have issues.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
And I've gone back to Amazon and gotten refunds, partial discounts, etc - because they shipping estimates during the holiday season are unrealistic. When Amazon tells me that a package ordered on December 18 will be delivered in two days - that is BS.

It actually really isn't BS. We have that capacity, and 2 Day is actually kind of a safe route for most packages. If we have extra lift and it's in the facility, we can get it on the next plane, if we don't we can truck it to where there is spare capacity and get it on the plane. During peak our 2 Day sort is probably the best thing we have. During peak we normally send our 2 Day packages to one facility and then it gets lifted to SDF. During peak that volume usually gets spread out to 3 different hubs that will absorb it and get it to Louisville.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
PITrules
Topic Author
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:58 pm

If it wasn't already mentioned it looks like TPA-ILN came online Oct 23 as well - the same day as both the NAC west coast operation and ILN-ABE/ONT.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ABX3103
FLYi
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:00 pm

It sounds like we don't have much to go on here besides references to this "Aerosmith Project" and the FAA data of plane movements in and out of ILN lately. But one thing I'm confused on is if we are looking at a direct contract with Amz (like the old USPS-branded airfleet where the planes are dedicated to Amz cargo), or is it a rider to existing FX/5X partnerships to expand what goes through those channels plus the SmartPost and UPS MI channels?
 
Gazdon121
Posts: 538
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:09 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:02 pm

what about if fedex started there own online store?
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4695
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 25):
If it wasn't already mentioned it looks like TPA-ILN came online Oct 23 as well - the same day as both the NAC west coast operation and ILN-ABE/ONT.

If you look at the ABX departures from ILN, you'll notice simething in common with the flight numbers of these Amazon flights. all ABX3XXX.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
Also, as to ABX Air, Airborne was a great, great company for business delivery, which was it's primary business. Their ability to do certain missions was legendary.

I was working in a shipping department for a food safety company (all tests needed to be kept cool) when the Airborne to DHL takeover debacle happened. They lost a pretty large customer overnight. It was actually pretty astounding to witness the implosion firsthand.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 801
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
Also, as to ABX Air, Airborne was a great, great company for business delivery, which was it's primary business.

My recollection is that Airborne was especially good at delivering our packages to a competitor on the other side of town, who, since they weren't US Mail, would gladly open and read them before letting us know they had been misdelivered.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
pjc747
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:50 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:58 am

Well, Amazon would be right at home. They'd be entering an industry with a history of low profits. Amazing that Amazon.com stock is $600+ with a super low P/E ratio, and haven't made any real money for over a decade.
 
BTVB6Flyer
Posts: 528
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:20 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 25):

If it wasn't already mentioned it looks like TPA-ILN came online Oct 23 as well - the same day as both the NAC west coast operation and ILN-ABE/ONT.

The Tampa Bay region just had two Amazon Fulfillment centers open recently. One in Ruskin, the other in Lakeland.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1755
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting pjc747 (Reply 30):

Best statement on A.net in a while.

This might be a way for them to test the waters to feed their UAV ("drone") deliver service. Service smaller, off the beaten path airports where they base their fleets of UAVs. Using the UAVs for last mile where today it hits a FedEX /UPS distribution facility.

Something like eBay Now, Amazon Same day etc, using dedicated fleets for specific products.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6270
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:55 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 24):
During peak our 2 Day sort is probably the best thing we have.

I was more focused on the local distribution center than SDF or the major hubs.

One example was at Mesquite Texas during the ice storm a couple Decembers ago, when more trucks arrived at the distribution center one day than would fit into the facility lots. They were lined up on the highway waiting to get in and get unloaded. These were both ground vehicles and those delivering from the airports. Among those trucks were over two dozen from the Amazon warehouse where three was the normal daily load. The distribution center had every employee their could get on duty 12-16 hours. Some of my friends tell me they slept in the break room, not going home for three days working to get the backlog out on trucks.

For years, I've found that Ground from Dallas to Houston was faster deliver than Next Day Air, because the package would depart Mesquite at 8 PM, arriving in South Houston at Midnight and be on the truck before the aircraft shipments arrived from the airport.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:00 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 16):
Yes you do. The investment that UPS made last Christmas to prove they can scale the operation was staggering, and they were willing to take a profitability hit to restore their reputation as a great logistics provider. It's amazing how much manual work is involved in routing packages at UPS, and how knowledgeable the people at SDF had to be to make that happen. By getting the computer to more of the thinking, UPS truly improved the scaleability of its service, which is critical in the peak. But Amazon is still smarting from the shutdown that left stuff undelivered when many people on the ground at UPS were willing to work on Christmas to make sure that Bobby got his toy truck from Santa. Shutting down was a tough decision that I think went the wrong way, and I'm not sure that everyone believed that employee morale was the reason for it. I know a fair number of UPS people who still feel really bad that they weren't allowed to get the stuff to the Christmas tree in time when they were willing to bust their asses to do so, which is a testament to them.

UPS employees probably care, but allegedly the company's high labor costs make it challenging for it to turn a profit off Amazon and the company's willing to let Amazon walk in lieu of spending billions in infrastructure that's only needed around the holiday season. Last holiday season was probably more of an outlier for UPS to restore its reputation than the norm, hence why UPS is demanding Uber-like "surge" pricing from Amazon despite Amazon's increasing reliance on contractors (and not UPS or FedEx) for deliveries.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 33):
For years, I've found that Ground from Dallas to Houston was faster deliver than Next Day Air, because the package would depart Mesquite at 8 PM, arriving in South Houston at Midnight and be on the truck before the aircraft shipments arrived from the airport.

If you're shipping from Dallas to Houston via UPS, the package is going to be trucked. Truck is cheaper than air, so UPS keeps packages on the ground as feasibly possible. In fact, UPS trucks air from SDF to many markets over the weekend in effort to keep fewer jets in the air / as much weight on the ground as possible.

If you're using FedEx, it will be flown as FedEx and FedEx Ground are two separate companies with unique facilities. FedEx is attempting to cross-utilize the two to mimic UPS, but its Ground division is a contractor model making the logistics challenging.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:44 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
The amount of volume from Amazon we process at UPS is staggering. I mean honestly you wouldn't believe how many pieces a day we get from them in just my small building. For them to do their own deliveries on even a small scale would require a massive infrastructure investment. Could they do it? Sure. At a cost advantage to using UPS and FedEx? Probably not. They're already paying bare bones rates.

Amazon is (in)famously ruthless with its suppliers. I think this could be a shot across the bow of the integrators. "We can build our own air network, FYI" in order to get better terms, but also to see how it could replace them.

What strikes me as odd is that Amazon is trying to stock inventory closer to its major markets by adding so many new locations in order to reduce the need for air transport. However, given the huge size of the company now, there's probably enough cross-country volume for a few flights between the major locations and major cities.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 7):
Anyways, I can see the need for an internal airline if only for shuttling employees between Amazon distribution centers and moving high value stock in a rush situation.

99% of the workers at distribution centers (fulfillment centers in Amazon parlance) are low-paid pickers and packers. There's no need to transport people between locations, and only a little traffic between SEA and those centers.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8980
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 34):
the company's willing to let Amazon walk in lieu of spending billions in infrastructure that's only needed around the holiday season

The surge around the holiday season has been around since UPS had one truck. It's just taking a different form these days. Regardless of how much Amazon stuff UPS carries, it still wants to carry the business of myriad other online merchants. THEY, in fact, were part of the problem in the Bad Year, so the infrastructure needs to be scalable regardless.

How "profitable" the Amazon business is depends a lot on how costs are accounted for. Remove the Amazon business and then see how "profitable" the rest of the business is. How "profitable" any piece of business is is a matter of art (and sales BS) as much as anything.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:34 am

Seriously...Amazon's ground delivery service is terrible - they've lost two packages of mine. I wouldn't trust them with a plane full of packages. At least FedEx and UPS are accountable.

Marc
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 37):
The surge around the holiday season has been around since UPS had one truck. It's just taking a different form these days. Regardless of how much Amazon stuff UPS carries, it still wants to carry the business of myriad other online merchants. THEY, in fact, were part of the problem in the Bad Year, so the infrastructure needs to be scalable regardless.

How "profitable" the Amazon business is depends a lot on how costs are accounted for. Remove the Amazon business and then see how "profitable" the rest of the business is. How "profitable" any piece of business is is a matter of art (and sales BS) as much as anything.

No, the holiday surge isn't new but surge pricing is -- and it's coming on the heels of Amazon attempting to build its own delivery network. If you live in NYC, your experience with free shipping might be next-day Sunday delivery via USPS, but if you live in rural Minnesota, you may wait the full 8 days. Amazon utilizes LTL to containerize shipments of small packages to local couriers (often somebody's garage) who then take a couple days to make the deliveries out of their own cars, with Amazon-supplied technology planning the routing. And this service is rapidly growing. In spite of that, the surge pricing seems wholly directed at Amazon, so UPS is showing they're not afraid (of Amazon, or losing Amazon's business... is up to debate).

UPS's savior is the lack of people with CDLs within the country. UPS, FedEx, etc. have been contracting the services of 3PL (like Swift) for extra lift, but due to the high demand they've been having to pay for their services from September, even though they won't be used until November (and some not at all).

[Edited 2015-11-05 19:49:32]
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3480
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 33):
For years, I've found that Ground from Dallas to Houston was faster deliver than Next Day Air, because the package would depart Mesquite at 8 PM, arriving in South Houston at Midnight and be on the truck before the aircraft shipments arrived from the airport.

People would be amazed how many Next Day Air packages we transport over our ground network. If you're within a 300-400 mile radius of the origin it's almost certainly being put on a truck. We'll put your Next Day Air right next to your ground package.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 34):
UPS employees probably care, but allegedly the company's high labor costs make it challenging for it to turn a profit off Amazon and the company's willing to let Amazon walk in lieu of spending billions in infrastructure that's only needed around the holiday season. Last holiday season was probably more of an outlier for UPS to restore its reputation than the norm, hence why UPS is demanding Uber-like "surge" pricing from Amazon despite Amazon's increasing reliance on contractors (and not UPS or FedEx) for deliveries.

Labor costs certainly don't help. But I'd be willing to bet our drivers do more stops in an 8 hour period than anybody else.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 36):
Amazon is (in)famously ruthless with its suppliers. I think this could be a shot across the bow of the integrators. "We can build our own air network, FYI" in order to get better terms, but also to see how it could replace them.

I'm sure it's a shot across the bow, but at the rate Amazon is growing, it doesn't matter. They would essentially need to buy DHL's network in the US just to do a sizeable amount of deliveries. A few 767 flights isn't going to make a noticeable difference.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 36):
What strikes me as odd is that Amazon is trying to stock inventory closer to its major markets by adding so many new locations in order to reduce the need for air transport. However, given the huge size of the company now, there's probably enough cross-country volume for a few flights between the major locations and major cities.

I'm sure there is still a need to move products between distribution centers, but even still, I can't imagine it's that much. If one center is out of a product they can still ship it from another. Most of my shipments seem to come from California and Arizona, while there is a distribution center only a few hours away in Minnesota.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
But the willingness to try and fail and try again is the essence of capitalism.

Why do certain people treat economics like a religion? As if innovation only started with the idea of capitalism.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 40):
People would be amazed how many Next Day Air packages we transport over our ground network.

I'd imagine it's a fairly high number...I mean if I need to NDA something from PHL-NYC, I'd think it a waste of money if it was transported PHL-SDF-JFK.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 40):
I'm sure there is still a need to move products between distribution centers, but even still, I can't imagine it's that much.

I have my own theory on this with Amazon. If I order a given item, what/if anything I pay in shipping could depend on where it comes from. Example: If I order a Kindle (as an example) with no rush shipping, they probably send it to me out of the Lexington Distribution Center, even though there are smaller centers near me. This way, they can just send it USPS, and not have to worry about premium costs from other carriers. Now, if I pay that $3.99 (if applicable), then Amazon has that little incentive to get it to me faster, and since I am a Prime member, they want to make sure I'm a happy customer, so in cases where I didn't take the free two day, they see, "Hey, this guy's Prime. Let's get it to him faster, so he's happy, and keeps paying us for his Prime membership." This is only a theory. I'm fully aware that I could be figuratively talking out of certain anatomical parts.

I will add that with shipping companies - and I hope I don't upset you Pat - I HATE UPS Smartpost. There's nothing like placing an order with a company, eagerly tracking the item, then seeing the line "Transferred to USPS." While the USPS has gotten somewhat better with package tracking, I still strongly prefer UPS and FedEx, as it's one tracking number, one company. I've had issues with Smartpost "Well, do you have your tracking number?" (Gives number) "Oh, that was transferred to the Post Office three days ago..."

Marc
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4695
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):

To be fair, using Swift ( Slow Whale In Fast Traffic) they may need to start packages off in September for holiday delivery. We are seeing bottleneck problems already with truck transport. This holiday season may get somewhat interesting
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 43):
We are seeing bottleneck problems already with truck transport. This holiday season may get somewhat interesting

One of my friends is a trucker...normally does produce, but says he may contact one of the shipping companies to gauge interest in using him as a contractor for the busy holiday season.

Marc
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8980
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:51 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 42):
There's nothing like placing an order with a company, eagerly tracking the item, then seeing the line "Transferred to USPS." While the USPS has gotten somewhat better with package tracking, I still strongly prefer UPS and FedEx, as it's one tracking number, one company. I've had issues with Smartpost "Well, do you have your tracking number?" (Gives number) "Oh, that was transferred to the Post Office three days ago..."

Yeah but Amazon's direct experience with the USPS puts the lie to it being the post office's fault. Fedex Smartpost (not UPS, Fedex) has clearly decided to take its time with that service, so not to impinge its more expensive Fedex Home Delivery. When they say "transferred to USPS", it means they loaded on a trailer or truck headed to the USPS, NOT that they have given it to them. The reality is that if you get it on the dock of the DDU (local post office) by 7am, it's going to be home-delivered that day. Amazon does ONE DAY delivery with the USPS. They get it out of their warehouse, dray it to the local area at 1am, and drop it off at the local post office before the cutoff for that day, and my mailman brings it before noon on his regular route. As a UPS employee noted above, the USPS weight limit is 70lbs, but they get it there VERY WELL. The USPS has been taking the heat for the failure of FedEx actually to put it in their hands, and instead to aggregate the local-est deliveries for a day or two before finally bothering to take it over to your post office, or to drop it at your post office at 2pm so it doesn't get delivered until the next day.

In short, it's not the USPS that's at fault, it's FedEx Smartpost, who says they "transferred" it, when all they really did was put it on the trailer of their to-the-post-office delivery agent, who then often takes his time. Newgistics does the same thing. When they have a sufficient volume to go to the DDU that day, it crosses their dock overnight and is in my hands the next morning. When they don't, they say "Processing" at their Port Elizabeth location for days, or they say that it has been dispatched, when all it is is sitting there in their lot.

[Edited 2015-11-05 21:51:41]

[Edited 2015-11-05 21:52:47]
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 45):
Fedex Smartpost (not UPS, Fedex

Thank-you for the correction. I meant UPS Surepost.
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:51 am

I think I like the idea of Amazon building out its own infrastucture to get shipments to either USPS larger processing centers (for instance, they have one here in Green Bay feeds a big part of GRB and areas to the north) or even more regional USPS locations.

Pat is correct, UPS and their drivers, in particular, do great work. But...no one (no one) has the reach of the USPS. (Being required by law to service every location with an actual address helps). Despite the fun people like to have bashing the Post Office, they're very efficient and have low error rates. Imagine Amazon flying shipments to regional hubs in early morning and letting USPS deliver the next day, paying the low rates of a typical short distance parcel while still delivering on a 2 day promise to their customer.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:03 am

Amazon has their own trucking network and sorting centers (not distribution). Air lift is likely to supplement that network for fast moving packages. They could also be shuttling goods / inventory prior to final packaging between fulfillment centers to help balance inventory.

Strategically Amazon has no choice but to significantly reduce UPS / Fedex volumes. Online retail is a volume driven game to drive margin. Making UPS and Fedex larger with more volume only drives down their internal costs per packages which, while beneficial to Amazon, is beneficial to every other online retailer. Amazon's competion isn't a single company. It's the entire online retail sector. Lowering the shipping cost bases for everyone only hurts Amazon as they have high flooring and fulfillment costs in order to enable fast delivery (that's the only reason Amazon is successful). Allowing other companies to have access to cheap 2-day delivery destories their investments in fulfillment centers across the country.

Tactically, Amazon is wayyyy to big to make the entire company and its future dependent on the performance of other companies (UPS, FedEx). Shipping is the single largest risk the company faces. In order to control risk, they must have control over more of the shipping business. Amazon has chosen to address this risk by building their own highly optimized distribution network of fulfillment centers and shipping channels.

[Edited 2015-11-06 00:38:46]
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3480
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Rumor: Amazon Starting In-house Airline - Part 1

Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 42):
I'd imagine it's a fairly high number...I mean if I need to NDA something from PHL-NYC, I'd think it a waste of money if it was transported PHL-SDF-JFK.

You'd be surprised how much of FedEx's volume is flown over short distances.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 42):
I have my own theory on this with Amazon. If I order a given item, what/if anything I pay in shipping could depend on where it comes from. Example: If I order a Kindle (as an example) with no rush shipping, they probably send it to me out of the Lexington Distribution Center, even though there are smaller centers near me. This way, they can just send it USPS, and not have to worry about premium costs from other carriers. Now, if I pay that $3.99 (if applicable), then Amazon has that little incentive to get it to me faster, and since I am a Prime member, they want to make sure I'm a happy customer, so in cases where I didn't take the free two day, they see, "Hey, this guy's Prime. Let's get it to him faster, so he's happy, and keeps paying us for his Prime membership." This is only a theory. I'm fully aware that I could be figuratively talking out of certain anatomical parts.

Yes that can be part of it. But a lot of it is actually the speed of our ground network. We can move a lot of packages over a long distance pretty fast. Like I believe I mentioned in an earlier post, we can generally move ground volume 400-500 miles overnight. Amazon has enough distribution centers to where transit for most packages will only be a day or two.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 42):
I will add that with shipping companies - and I hope I don't upset you Pat - I HATE UPS Smartpost. There's nothing like placing an order with a company, eagerly tracking the item, then seeing the line "Transferred to USPS." While the USPS has gotten somewhat better with package tracking, I still strongly prefer UPS and FedEx, as it's one tracking number, one company. I've had issues with Smartpost "Well, do you have your tracking number?" (Gives number) "Oh, that was transferred to the Post Office three days ago..."

You're not upsetting me. I understand people get frustrated by it. But you must also look at it like this. With SurePost you're getting cheap shipping. That is the benefit to the customer. We give it to the post office because they can deliver it cheaper than we can. We process everything as a ground package up until the point of delivery. And even then, if we are making a delivery in the vicinity, it will be delivered by a man or woman in brown. With SurePost we are actually very good at tendering it to the post office. It's one area we focus on with it. I can't tell you the last time we didn't get SurePost volume to the post office the day we received it.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 45):
Yeah but Amazon's direct experience with the USPS puts the lie to it being the post office's fault. Fedex Smartpost (not UPS, Fedex) has clearly decided to take its time with that service, so not to impinge its more expensive Fedex Home Delivery.

It's also the downfall of the contractor model. The ground guys have no stakes in getting it there by a certain time. We do.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 45):
In short, it's not the USPS that's at fault, it's FedEx Smartpost, who says they "transferred" it, when all they really did was put it on the trailer of their to-the-post-office delivery agent, who then often takes his time.

I don't know how FedEx does it, but I know our SurePost gets delivered in bags and is tendered directly to the post office like a delivery. We don't put it on a trailer and let them unload it at their leisure. When it's tendered to the post office it is sitting there.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos