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ndhair37
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:39 am

An order for 100 aircraft after Emirates nigh-on humiliated Airbus with the A350 order cancellation and Boeing won't undertake to "Heat-ernise" the 787-10 family? Think of the likes of South African who equally need to play their hand for an A330 and A340 replacement and this could prove an incredibly popular option. What's the honest difference that needs making? A more powerful engine?
 
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Ab345
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:51 am

Interesting article from ferpe on the subject today:

http://leehamnews.com/2015/11/10/emirates-mid-range-choice/#more-17753

.......As issues with 787-10 surfaced, the A350-900 went into service with first operator, neighboring Qatar Airways. Feedback was good, not only from the airline but also from the passengers. Feedback from 787 passengers in comparison was mixed. While business class passengers praised the comfort, the economy passengers complained. Emirates know full well what a rumor of a comfortable aircraft can do for their load-factors. Their Airbus A380 passengers vote with their money.
As the gap between A350-900 and 787-10 got closer, the -10 is the maximum size in the family. Emirates “are creatures of size and scale” says Clark. An A350 choice has the attraction of a larger variant if needed, the -1000. But its economics will be very dependent on how well Airbus can keep the weight creep under control. Better wait until the first test aircraft prove where Airbus is on this touchy subject and on overall performance.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:28 am

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 200):
An order for 100 aircraft after Emirates nigh-on humiliated Airbus with the A350 order cancellation and Boeing won't undertake to "Heat-ernise" the 787-10 family?

For what it's worth I think we're reading far too much into the thread title.

For me, rather than this being evidence of a "slam-dunk for the 787-10", or a "slam-dunk for the A350-900", it's a slam-dunk for the 787-10 having already gone through design freeze, being in production, and due to fly in less than 18 months.
Simple as that IMO.

"Emiritisation" is surely something that happens during the definition stage, as it has for the 777X

Rgds
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
You left out the most important piece of information: according to Hazy, the difference between the 78X and A359 in terms of fuel burn is only 1-2%. Not that much to discuss about.

This is true, however, when the 7810 engine tech catches up to the 359 (and is should soon, Trent TEN and GE PIP4 are coming), the difference will be from 2-4% which is more significant. Those engines should be in place by the time the 7810 is delivered, so a bigger difference can be expected.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:01 pm

The Leeham article is suggesting that the lavatories on the A359 were redesigned allowing for more seats in the A359 nearly matching the 78X seating which has a harder time applying the same lavatory changes. I think there is a lot of merit to this being the reason EK has delayed its decision to see if there really is a seating advantage on the 78X. Interesting development.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 203):
when the 7810 engine tech catches up to the 359 (and is should soon

I doubt the Trent engine tech will ever match the XWB engine tech. Sure the TEN is a big step up but that improvement is based on the XWB improvments being implemented - in my opinion it will always be 1-2 percent behind. With the lighter weight it doesn't need to match it to have an advantage overall though.

tortugamon
 
wingman
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 201):
While business class passengers praised the comfort, the economy passengers complained. Emirates know full well what a rumor of a comfortable aircraft can do for their load-factors. Their Airbus A380 passengers vote with their money.

And yet EK operate the world's single largest fleet of 10 abreast 777s...so when those 100+ aircraft go out full of economy class passengers every day, are those passengers voting with something other than money or are they being flown against their will?

Look, you have pro Airbus folks and Airbus itself attempting to create this perception that Airbus makes more comfortable planes than Boeing. The flip side is that Boeing gives the customer the added flexibility of increasing yield by adding more seats in coach...to a degree that worldwide coach passengers have not yet deemed worthy of boycotting. This statement has to be true because f it wasn't there would be 100+ EK 777s parked off to the side of the airport in Dubai, just sitting there rusting to death.

I don't fault Airbus one bit for making it impossible to have this flexibility with mainline carriers, but to say that an airline like EK is going to decide between the 787 and 350 based on this econ-pax comfort factor is nonsense (in my own personal opinion). In my view, this order is going to be about performance and money.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 203):
This is true, however, when the 7810 engine tech catches up to the 359 (and is should soon, Trent TEN and GE PIP4 are coming), the difference will be from 2-4% which is more significant.

I'm not sure I understand why the GEnx and T1000 are improvable, but the TXWB isn't ......

Rgds
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 203):
This is true, however, when the 7810 engine tech catches up to the 359 (and is should soon, Trent TEN and GE PIP4 are coming), the difference will be from 2-4% which is more significant. Those engines should be in place by the time the 7810 is delivered, so a bigger difference can be expected.

Aside from tortugamon's reply, that only holds true if there are no improvements to the TXWB or A350. Which is very unlikely.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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justloveplanes
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 206):
I'm not sure I understand why the GEnx and T1000 are improvable, but the TXWB isn't ......
Quoting scbriml (Reply 207):
Aside from tortugamon's reply, that only holds true if there are no improvements to the TXWB or A350. Which is very unlikely.

The TXWB is improvable for sure, and those new improvements may also (possibly not) migrate from the XWB down to the Trent TEN NG. So it's a game of catchup, but over time one might expect the technologies to coverge with the following caveat:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 204):
I doubt the Trent engine tech will ever match the XWB engine tech. Sure the TEN is a big step up but that improvement is based on the XWB improvments being implemented - in my opinion it will always be 1-2 percent behind. With the lighter weight it doesn't need to match it to have an advantage overall though.

So with continuous improvement over time, an offset will remain over the two architectures, but I am guessing it will not be big as the one that is there is now. So given all that, catching up was the wrong word, perhaps closing up the gap is better.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 208):
So with continuous improvement over time, an offset will remain over the two architectures, but I am guessing it will not be big as the one that is there is now.

I agree because right now its a pretty substantial gap but the 3%+ that the Trent TEN is supposed to bring will bring them closer together but I think its sort of like getting 50% of the way their every year type of thing....you never really get there especially because the goal posts (XWB) are moving too. Still, I think RR has a real winner on their hand with the Trent TEN and GE will need to launch something, maybe with the GE9x improvements, to keep pace and keep their high market share intact.

tortugamon
 
Bambel
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 193):
The question is what other advantages might the A350-900 bring to offset this natural advantage to the 787-10?

Better RW performance on hot days?

b.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 190):
Interestingly this article also says that the engine is spec'd at 70-72,000lbs yet we know there is a 77,800lbs RR Trent 1000 engine already certified let alone the yet to be certified Trent TEN.

That's what I was a bit confused about as well because we do know the Trent 1000 is certified to the numbers you mention.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 193):
A 787-10 burning about the same fuel as an A350-900 will unquestionably have better fuel burn per seat by dint of it's 3 extra rows.

AFAIK, the B787-10X also has more cargo capabilities as well.

Now how will weather, temperature, etc. affect it I'm not so sure.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 197):
You left out the most important piece of information: according to Hazy, the difference between the 78X and A359 in terms of fuel burn is only 1-2%. Not that much to discuss about.

However the article also stated ""“If it’s identically configured," which it won't be as the B787-10X will be able to seat more than the A359XWB.
"Up the Irons!"
 
WIederling
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 183):
LLC has already released notice of 10x in an A350

there is imho a difference between "N"abreast seating being used for boasting/boosting efficiency numbers in comparisons
and the plane is below par in a "N-1" setup that it originally was introduced with to "provide exceptional comfort"
or some stray carriers _also_ using "N"abreast while the majority currently goes for "N-1" arrangements.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing "will Not Change 7810 For Emirates"

Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:49 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 204):
The Leeham article is suggesting that the lavatories on the A359 were redesigned allowing for more seats in the A359 nearly matching the 78X seating which has a harder time applying the same lavatory changes. I think there is a lot of merit to this being the reason EK has delayed its decision to see if there really is a seating advantage on the 78X. Interesting development.

Airbus are adding up to 18 additional seats in the A350.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/t6tgtx.jpg

This new cabin option should become available at the end of the decade.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.

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