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clewatcher
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Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:02 pm

Happened just before 3PM EST while on final approach into Akron Fulton Airport KAKR, 2 confirmed dead,

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/...-of-fatalities-could-grow-1.639413

Rain and low cloud deck at the time, poor visibility, crashed 2 miles from airport.

[Edited 2015-11-10 14:05:24]

[Edited 2015-11-10 14:06:02]
-Raymond
 
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Joshu
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:32 pm

Now 9 mentioned dead by the "owner" of the a/c. -ohio.com
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qwerty
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:41 pm

Perhaps this is the flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526

Some speculation will be needed on the N-number.
 
clewatcher
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:42 pm

Confirmed to be a Hawker 125-700 series, clipped some power lines before hitting a small apartment building with up to 4 units in it, power went out over a decent sized portion of Southeast Akron into the Downtown area.

Plane reported to have taken off from a Dayton area airport.

Witnesses report unusual jet sounds compared to what they usually hear along final approach into KAKR with sounds of engines cutting out to sounds of engines throttling up repeatedly.
-Raymond
 
clewatcher
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting qwerty (Reply 2):

Perhaps this is the flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526

Some speculation will be needed on the N-number.

That is the flight as reported by local news.
-Raymond
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Perhaps N880RG.


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canyonblue17
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 5):
Perhaps N880RG

If it is....here is a photo I took.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark L. Pollio



[Edited 2015-11-10 15:19:02]
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BigSaabowski
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:24 pm

Here's the audio of the accident aircraft talking to Akron Approach. The callsign is Zipline 1526. The last transmission was around the 20 minute mark. They were doing the localizer approach to runway 25. The accident site is on about a one and a half mile final for runway 25.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kcak/KCAK-Nov-10-2015-1930Z.mp3

[Edited 2015-11-10 15:27:58]
 
F9Animal
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:05 am

This girl was on snapchat when the crash happened across the street! You can hear the engines, a flash, and then the crash. Absolutely shocking, and very very sad. Here is the news article with the video....

http://q13fox.com/2015/11/10/teen-on...ashes-into-ohio-apartment-complex/
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OMP777X
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 8):

This girl was on snapchat when the crash happened across the street! You can hear the engines, a flash, and then the crash. Absolutely shocking, and very very sad. Here is the news article with the video.

That was insane. There's a minute of her life that she'll definitely never forget. Luckily her neighbors weren't home. May all of the souls aboard who've perished rest in peace.

Best,

OMP777X
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F9Animal
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:48 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 9):
That was insane. There's a minute of her life that she'll definitely never forget. Luckily her neighbors weren't home. May all of the souls aboard who've perished rest in peace.

Best,

OMP777X

I don't know what makes that so gut wrenching. Maybe the raw sound of the engines and bang? Or, her reaction? I couldn't imagine. I have seen plenty of carnage, seen tons of awful videos.... But.... This one just made me cringe.  

I agree.... May those souls rest in peace.
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skyhawk62507
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
I don't know what makes that so gut wrenching. Maybe the raw sound of the engines and bang? Or, her reaction? I couldn't imagine. I have seen plenty of carnage, seen tons of awful videos.... But.... This one just made me cringe.

It's the contrast between the banal musings of a self-involved teenager/young adult, and watching as she is suddenly confronted by the harsh, bitter realities of death and destruction within view and earshot of her home. I think she matured a few years over the course of those eight seconds.

[Edited 2015-11-10 21:30:25]
 
Brewfangrb
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:09 am

Quoting skyhawk62507 (Reply 11):
a self-involved teenager/young adult

Right, because from an 8 second Snapchat you can pretty easily ascertain someone's personality. Or...just use a tired trope of characterizing teenagers.  
 
Part147
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting skyhawk62507 (Reply 11):
It's the contrast between the banal musings of a self-involved teenager/young adult, and watching as she is suddenly confronted by the harsh, bitter realities of death and destruction within view and earshot of her home. I think she matured a few years over the course of those eight seconds.

EVERY 'adult' was once a self-involved teenager/young adult.

A very striking video and and reminder to all that life is so fragile and fleeting... RIP to those who have died  
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mjlewis
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:07 pm

And it goes to show, that nowadays just about nothing can happen without some type of media capturing it.
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skyhawk62507
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 12):
Quoting skyhawk62507 (Reply 11):a self-involved teenager/young adult
Right, because from an 8 second Snapchat you can pretty easily ascertain someone's personality. Or...just use a tired trope of characterizing teenagers.

Not really the point, but given that literally the first words recorded are "he's so gaaaaaay," yeah, I feel pretty comfortable in characterizing her as (at least) somewhat immature. Just like practically any other teenager, "tired trope" or not.

Which was what I was trying to say in my original post: the reason this video may be even more jarring than others we've all seen, is that it only captured the accident indirectly. The focus was on the reaction of an innocent to the crash.

[Edited 2015-11-11 07:44:41]
 
crownvic
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:10 pm

first it was 9 on board then all night it dropped to just the two crew and now updated to nine on board...turns out reply 1 was correct

[Edited 2015-11-11 09:13:12]
 
trnswrld
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:40 pm

Wow that video is crazy! I'm not gonna comment on the chic. It sucks that she was saying that stuff on video that is now all over the internet, but whatever, lets face it we have all said stupid shit. As far as the rest of it holy crap! I'm not sure what the engines were doing whether they were producing power or not, but based on the video sure sounded like they were screaming.

[Edited 2015-11-11 11:02:15]
 
canyonblue17
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:52 pm

Have they confirmed the tail number?
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cfichad
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:58 pm

I have to admit I didn't read the headlines as far as the N Number until just now. I flew that plane in 2013 when I was with Execuflight out of Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport (FXE). This outfit is shady, at best. They are owned by a gentleman that has a less than stellar safety record and cuts corners. They have a pay for training deal they offer low time pilots.

The tail number would either be N237WR or N880RG. Those are two that Execuflight operated. Jennifer Lopez owned one of these planes with Sammy Sosa and a couple of other guys which I don't remember.

[Edited 2015-11-11 11:03:27]
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YVRLTN
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting cfichad (Reply 21):
The tail number would either be N237WR or N880RG

Still seems unconfirmed which of the two it is, see

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20151110-1
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canyonblue17
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:34 pm

One website says N237WR and another says N880RG. Any confirmation yet??
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eksath
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:06 pm

N237WR is confirmed by the authorities now.
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fghtngsiouxatc
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:07 pm

I'll second that Execuflight seemed like a bit of a shady operation. When I worked for an FBO at MDW, one of their 2 HA700 declared emergency after a hydraulic failure on final. We had to go out to the runway and tow them off. While I realize this could happen to any plane, their fleet consisted of relatively old aircraft (HA700, WW1124, and GIII). The aircraft ended up in our hangar for well over a week to get fixed. IIRC, the crew on another flight paid over $1,000 in cash for their bill, a bit strange in today's day and age, especially for a decently sized charter operation.

Very sad regardless, but hopefully this wasn't caused by some sort of mechanical failure that could've been easily prevented by the operator.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:53 pm

Looks like it is 9. Now, there is video of the actual crash caught on a camera. Wow!!!

http://fox8.com/2015/11/11/exclusive-video/
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26point2
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:16 pm

Let's stay on topic.

AIN reports the ceiling 5 minutes after the accident as 400 broken 900 overcast. LOC minimums are above 400. Wonder if they lost it on the missed approach.

2nd video (surveillance) looked to me the plane was in a near 90 bank and either training something or on fire when it crashed? Hard to make out.
 
Okie
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 26):
2nd video (surveillance) looked to me the plane was in a near 90 bank and either training something or on fire when it crashed? Hard to make out

What caught my eye is the rate of decent. Nothing in the background to get a sense of speed.

This may be the Hawker quadrant trap pulling the throttles back past the detent to fuel shut off position by accident. There is only a detent and no gate. They could have been trying to descend and slow down to quickly. Just did not have time to restart and regain enough thrust/speed going to keep gravity from taking over.
We had a similar situation with a local business owner on a Hawker a couple years ago. In that accident they got one restarted but did not have time to run up to full thrust.
That is just a wild guess but fits the scenario.

Okie

[Edited 2015-11-11 16:13:50]
 
MrBuzzcut
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:03 am

Does a jet like this carry a FDR and CVR? My perusal of the relevant FAR says probably, but was hoping somebody here would know for sure on this particular model.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
I don't know what makes that so gut wrenching.
Quoting Okie (Reply 27):
This may be the Hawker quadrant trap pulling the throttles back past the detent to fuel shut off position by accident. There is only a detent and no gate. They could have been trying to descend and slow down to quickly. Just did not have time to restart and regain enough thrust/speed going to keep gravity from taking over.
We had a similar situation with a local business owner on a Hawker a couple years ago. In that accident they got one restarted but did not have time to run up to full thrust.
That is just a wild guess but fits the scenario.

Okie

Could you possibly elaborate on that to some degree for those of us who've never piloted a bizjet? It seems like your proposed scenario makes perfect sense to me without even knowing the in's and out's of its systems. Is the idea that the auto throttle was being used, and they were too high for their approach, so they accidentally tricked it into thinking it needed to cut the throttle too soon by trying to lose altitude? Sorry if I'm way off on my interpretation of your post.

Best,

OMP777X
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Aesma
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:26 am

He's saying that if you're not careful when reducing power, you might shut the engines down completely.
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 28):
This may be the Hawker quadrant trap pulling the throttles back past the detent to fuel shut off position by accident. There is only a detent and no gate. They could have been trying to descend and slow down to quickly. Just did not have time to restart and regain enough thrust/speed going to keep gravity from taking over.
We had a similar situation with a local business owner on a Hawker a couple years ago. In that accident they got one restarted but did not have time to run up to full thrust.
That is just a wild guess but fits the scenario.

Although the sound in the first video says the engines were going, and going at a high setting. I am leaning towards accelerated stall or deep stall.
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wjcandee
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 30):
Sorry if I'm way off on my interpretation of your post.

What he is saying is that the throttle on the Hawker doesn't have a gate that stops you from pulling it into the fuel cutoff position by mistake. There is just a detent where you stop at flight idle.

Here's a report on an accident that happened exactly that way. http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...neratePDF.aspx?id=CEN13FA196&rpt=p

The flight in the report is a good example of how passengers on private aircraft can end up getting a lot more than they bargained for because unless you operate under the regulations that prohibit crap like this, it will happen. Doubtless the three in the back didn't know that a barely-qualified person was getting a lesson from a non-instructor pilot (not even a commercial pilot) during their ride, a person who was just a friend of the pilot and had no official role in the flight, a lesson that killed the two in the pointy end.

They are entitled to kill themselves by doing stuff they weren't qualified to do, but the three in the back are just innocent victims of their failure to recognize the risks in what they were doing. "Oh it happens all the time." "It will be fine." "What's the harm?" Here is what it is.

As to the current flight, the two up front apparently weren't highly-experienced folks, so this is as good an EWAG as any.

[Edited 2015-11-11 17:48:09]

[Edited 2015-11-11 17:49:03]
 
OMP777X
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 31):
He's saying that if you're not careful when reducing power, you might shut the engines down completely.

I'm with the concept at least that far, but I'm asking more specifically about there being no "gate" on that model, etc.

The press has reported the CVR was already recovered. In addition to the NTSB there are some university students with an aviation disaster recovery team out there helping the authorities gather and process the evidence. It seems like they've got some solid pieces of evidence out of these videos themselves though already.
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Mir
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 27):
This may be the Hawker quadrant trap pulling the throttles back past the detent to fuel shut off position by accident. There is only a detent and no gate. They could have been trying to descend and slow down to quickly. Just did not have time to restart and regain enough thrust/speed going to keep gravity from taking over.

The sound in the snapchat video indicates that the engines were definitely not off. In addition, the 800 requires the movement of a separate lever in order to shut off the engines - you can't just do it by pulling the thrust levers back.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 33):
What he is saying is that the throttle on the Hawker doesn't have a gate that stops you from pulling it into the fuel cutoff position by mistake. There is just a detent where you stop at flight idle.

Here's a report on an accident that happened exactly that way. http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...rpt=p

First of all, that was a Premier, not an 800. Second of all, the text indicates that there isn't just a detent: "The airplane throttle quadrant had a mechanical stop at the flight idle power position, which required lifting finger levers, or pull-up locks, to further retard the throttles into the fuel cut-off position."

A similar system is used on many aircraft. You can't just pull the thrust levers back and shut the engines down, you've got to do something else (in this case lift the finger locks) in conjunction. If you don't, the furthest back they will go is idle power. I don't know of any aircraft that has a cut-off position on the thrust levers where you can shut the engine down solely by pulling the thrust levers back, detent or no detent.

-Mir
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Falcon Flyer
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:28 am

The Hawker 700 (and subsequent models) do not have a fuel cutoff position on the throttles, strictly full power or back to idle. In order to shutdown the engines, separate levers (called HP cocks) on the lower part of the center quadrant need to be moved out of a detent position and down in order to shutoff the engines. Reducing the power to idle and shutting down the engines are 2 distinct and separate processes. While it's way too early to know what happened, if the weather reports were accurate, there was about a 20min span were the ceiling was below minimums for the approach. Under FAR 135, they shouldn't have even attempted the approach. CAK is only a few miles away with ILS approaches to every runway, all having 200ft minimums. Very unfortunate.
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OMP777X
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 33):

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 30):
Sorry if I'm way off on my interpretation of your post.

What he is saying is that the throttle on the Hawker doesn't have a gate that stops you from pulling it into the fuel cutoff position by mistake. There is just a detent where you stop at flight idle.

Gotcha. That was kind of how I interpreted what you were saying.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
A similar system is used on many aircraft. You can't just pull the thrust levers back and shut the engines down, you've got to do something else (in this case lift the finger locks) in conjunction. If you don't, the furthest back they will go is idle power. I don't know of any aircraft that has a cut-off position on the thrust levers where you can shut the engine down solely by pulling the thrust levers back, detent or no detent.

So, in the event that a pilot in training is at the controls and accidentally pulls the throttle to idle when they're not supposed to, could that not induce a stall alone by itself on a final approach? I suppose there are even possible scenarios where someone could pull the power to the engine completely when it shouldn't have been, even if it did require lifting a finger lock to do it. Didn't the ATR in Taiwan come down for a similar reason?
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wjcandee
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:53 am

Yeah, but what several subsequent posters have indicated is that it's harder to do that on this model. Mir correctly points out that the report I cited to indicates that you have to pull finger switches to get the throttle all the way in to the cutoff position. But that sort of begs the question, because the passenger pilot apparently still managed to inadvertently pull the throttles into cutoff. So maybe it's a possibility, or maybe it isn't. These are all just educated wild ass guesses at this point, which is what I indicated as well.
 
apfpilot
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 33):
As to the current flight, the two up front apparently weren't highly-experienced folks, so this is as good an EWAG as any.

where are you reading that?
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Mir
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Reply 36):
While it's way too early to know what happened, if the weather reports were accurate, there was about a 20min span were the ceiling was below minimums for the approach. Under FAR 135, they shouldn't have even attempted the approach

Only visibility is controlling for determining whether to attempt an approach, so unless the visibility was below minimums there's no reason they could not have attempted the approach.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 38):
But that sort of begs the question, because the passenger pilot apparently still managed to inadvertently pull the throttles into cutoff.

He probably thought the instruction to pull the throttles all the way back included pulling them into cutoff. It's not difficult to do if you intend to do it.

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 37):
I suppose there are even possible scenarios where someone could pull the power to the engine completely when it shouldn't have been, even if it did require lifting a finger lock to do it. Didn't the ATR in Taiwan come down for a similar reason?

That happened because the crew intentionally shut down the wrong engine. That's a very different thing from unintentionally shutting down one or both engines.

-Mir
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robertm46
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:07 am

To add to the comment about not having the minimums at Akron Fulton, I would also caution that the localizer 25 approach has an offset transmitter...about 1.1 miles down the runway. The pilot reported established on the localizer so I assume he was using this approach. Instead of having the DME read zero miles at the touch down end (as in the GPS 25 approach), it should read 1.1 miles. This is not a big deal, but if you are working hard on an approach to minimums with the ceiling varying between 400 ft and 600 ft overcast in some rain it may present some confusion. If you suddenly realize that you should get down a little quicker to make the 1.1 mile go around point (rather than zero which would be at the far end of the runway) you might, in haste, steepen the descent rate, pull the throttle to idle, and overshoot the minimums with little power. If the speed deteriorates quickly enough when you pull up to maintain or regain the MDA, going to full power may not stop the descent and stall. The wing dropping in the surveillance video could well be the stall wing rolloff, though the jet looked like it was dropping, not flying at that point. The proper thing to do, assuming all systems were working properly, is to initiate a go around the second things get even the slightest bit unstable. This was just a thought that occurred to me, though we really have no indication of what went wrong. These things are just very sad for those of us who have flown business aircraft into Akron Fulton Airport! RIP all onboard.
 
OMP777X
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
That's a very different thing from unintentionally shutting down one or both engines.

That wasn't what I suggested. I don't think anyone qualified to fly would be that dense and not realize that what they were doing would shut the engine down. On the other hand...

Quoting robertm46 (Reply 41):
If you suddenly realize that you should get down a little quicker to make the 1.1 mile go around point (rather than zero which would be at the far end of the runway) you might, in haste, steepen the descent rate, pull the throttle to idle, and overshoot the minimums with little power. If the speed deteriorates quickly enough when you pull up to maintain or regain the MDA, going to full power may not stop the descent and stall.

Yes, that seems more likely to happen. The NTSB is now stating that they believe weather was a contributing factor, and could have helped lead to the scenario you've suggested.
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Falcon Flyer
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Only visibility is controlling for determining whether to attempt an approach, so unless the visibility was below minimums there's no reason they could not have attempted the approach.

You're absolutely right. Too many years out of 135.
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atct
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting robertm46 (Reply 41):
To add to the comment about not having the minimums at Akron Fulton, I would also caution that the localizer 25 approach has an offset transmitter...about 1.1 miles down the runway. The pilot reported established on the localizer so I assume he was using this approach. Instead of having the DME read zero miles at the touch down end (as in the GPS 25 approach), it should read 1.1 miles. This is not a big deal, but if you are working hard on an approach to minimums with the ceiling varying between 400 ft and 600 ft overcast in some rain it may present some confusion. If you suddenly realize that you should get down a little quicker to make the 1.1 mile go around point (rather than zero which would be at the far end of the runway) you might, in haste, steepen the descent rate, pull the throttle to idle, and overshoot the minimums with little power. If the speed deteriorates quickly enough when you pull up to maintain or regain the MDA, going to full power may not stop the descent and stall. The wing dropping in the surveillance video could well be the stall wing rolloff, though the jet looked like it was dropping, not flying at that point. The proper thing to do, assuming all systems were working properly, is to initiate a go around the second things get even the slightest bit unstable. This was just a thought that occurred to me, though we really have no indication of what went wrong. These things are just very sad for those of us who have flown business aircraft into Akron Fulton Airport! RIP all onboard.

I understand the point that they went low, but shooting a LOC/DME approach is common practice for the most basic of IFR pilots. Also, the localizer antennae, on 99% of approaches, is at the departure end. Hence, the MAP is usually the approach end of the runway, which is anywhere from 1-3DME depending on the length of the runway.

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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 31):
As to the current flight, the two up front apparently weren't highly-experienced folks, so this is as good an EWAG as any.

FYI: I saw a report quoting the FAA as saying that the two up front had 5,000 and 6,000 hours. It did not list in what.
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RE: Hawker Jet Crash In Akron Ohio

Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:43 am

Preliminary report mentions that they were in contact with another aircraft that landed before they were to land saying they broke out of cloud cover at minimums and that the Hawker acknowledged.

read the report here: http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local...deadly-akron-plane-crash/75984594/
-Raymond

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