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DeltaRules
Posts: 5209
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting papatango (Reply 49):
How about CMH-AMS?

Sign me up. I found an archived FlyerTalk thread which said CRAA was working on getting NW to launch it in 2007 or 2008, with it never coming to fruition.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 323
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RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:12 am

Perhaps a major build up at SJC within the next 5 years.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3800
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:10 am

Delta's next big thing is to gut loyalty of any member who does not pay for first.

EconomyComfort+ is he new F classsssss
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 42):
Has anybody spoken for those Air Canada E195s that Boeing is taking? I

No.

Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
It will take years to upgrade the entire fleet, in the meantime while it is only on the A350 what do the rest of the DL travelling public do, wait?

yes? just like they had to wait for the A330 upgrades
People are waiting for the 777 upgrades at AA
etc. etc. etc.

Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
I know, pedantic, but if the have a plan for a new product and have the funds, the time to push out the new product is before the new a/c arrives.

It takes long lead times to roll out new hard product.
On top of that they are still getting the ROI on the current seats.

Quoting goboeing (Reply 46):

They are able to fly E190s right now. Contract has nothing to do with that.

I mean you are right but we all know the E90s wont happen till a contract is signed. Its about the only leverage the company has.

and the E90 pay rates are so low that the plane will be a nightmare to staff anyways.

Quoting flyinggoat (Reply 51):
Perhaps a major build up at SJC within the next 5 years.

highly unlikely

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 52):
Delta's next big thing is to gut loyalty of any member who does not pay for first.

Yeah what a terrible company, trying to make money and all.  
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 45):
RDU hanger for up to 3 aircraft up to 738 size?

that wont happen.
Having said that RDU just opened up as a line station. (Along with CLT and ORD, and they are opening one of the hangars in ORD again. Not sure if its the exDL hangar or exNW hangar).
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 25):
Don't tell me DL will be turning Comfort Plus into a real W product...if they did that, they'd get all of my international business for certain. Would love to see them do that!

I won't tell you that, but I will highly suggest it! Obviously, it won't happen overnight, and until the fleet mods are completed, it won't be anything more than it is now. Comfort+ will be loaded in its own fare class for travel starting this summer. Initially it will only be for travel in the 50-U.S. and Canada, but the birdies I've heard singing have pointed to a true Premium Economy product to be launched (as others above have said) with the A350.
 
BDL757
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:49 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
738/738MAX order to start the replacement of M88s

738s hold more pax than the MD-88 so I guess it wouldn't be a 1 for 1 replacement. Unless they also plan to use E195s to replace part of the M88 fleet in which case a mix of e195 and 738 would make sense.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
LAX and SEA gate/space solutions. More LAX growth both domestically and internationally. Making SEA into the Delta version of United's SFO hub.

I've been hearing about us moving to T1 and T2 (or maybe it was T2 and T3...can't remember) and leaving T5/6 but I can't see that happening unless it would result in a net gain of gates/space.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 56):
I've been hearing about us moving to T1 and T2 (or maybe it was T2 and T3...can't remember) and leaving T5/6 but I can't see that happening unless it would result in a net gain of gates/space.

T2/T3
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3800
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 53):
Yeah what a terrible company, trying to make money and all.  

No one ever said the organization shouldn't try to make money. A healthy, profitable Delta is good for consumers too. So no need for the snappiness.

However, at some point there is a tension that will break. Loyalty versus profit. The organization may choose profit over loyalty today which is probably the right decision, but at some point the economy will go into the tank again, people will fly less and those who were loyal may remember the incessant enhancements that took place over the last few years against Medallion members.

[Edited 2015-11-15 16:03:20]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3718
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 52):
Delta's next big thing is to gut loyalty of any member who does not pay for first.
EconomyComfort+ is he new F classsssss
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 58):
people will fly less and those who were loyal may remember the incessant enhancements that took place over the last few years against Medallion members.

You mean you might actually have to pay for a First Class ticket in order to guarantee you will be sitting in First?

Oh, the horrors!!!   
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3800
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 59):
You mean you might actually have to pay for a First Class ticket in order to guarantee you will be sitting in First?

Oh, the horrors!!!   

Unless you know me, don't assume anything. I buy first.

Next.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
738/738MAX order to start the replacement of M88s
Wouldn't be shocked to see things work themselves out over the next year or so.



Question: If Anderson is quoted as saying that operating MD88s can still be quite profitable at $90 barrel prices, why add at least another $1-2B of debt to replace them when oil prices are at $40 a barrel?
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
PIEAvantiP180
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:04 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 61):

Per some of the other treads we have had on DL MD88 some posters have said that DL will start running out of parts to keep the fleet flying around 2020. From what I have read on here to order follow on batches of these parts will become increasingly expensive due to the volume of parts being produced is getting smaller as the world's MD88 fleet becomes ever smaller.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:21 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 62):

That's probably a factor. But it seems even with the increased cost in parts, a large batch order would still be well under $1-2B; if controlling capex is still the priority.

Also, wasn't there talk of DL working towards producing the MD88 parts in-house in these threads?
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:28 am

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 61):
Question: If Anderson is quoted as saying that operating MD88s can still be quite profitable at $90 barrel prices, why add at least another $1-2B of debt to replace them when oil prices are at $40 a barrel?

EXACTLY. If there's anyway that Delta can hang on until the NSA project starts off, they'd save billions in skipping a marginally better generation of airplane. I think they'll get close.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 63):
Also, wasn't there talk of DL working towards producing the MD88 parts in-house in these threads?

That's the word on the street.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 62):
Per some of the other treads we have had on DL MD88 some posters have said that DL will start running out of parts to keep the fleet flying around 2020. From what I have read on here to order follow on batches of these parts will become increasingly expensive due to the volume of parts being produced is getting smaller as the world's MD88 fleet becomes ever smaller.

I'll believe that when I see it. So far the projections I've seen aren't showing any problems until 2025ish, especially if we start building parts in house.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
questions
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RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:42 am

Will Delta brand the new W fare premium economy product on the A350 Delta Half or Delta Two?
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:00 am

Not really a "big thing", but when CLT opens up the Concourse A extension in the coming years, I have heard from multiple people that there will be a Delta Sky Club. CLT is probably the largest outstation without one.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 54):
line station

What does this mean?
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 60):
Unless you know me, don't assume anything. I buy first.

So then why would you care what they do to take away benefits from those in Economy Comfort?
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 56):

738s hold more pax than the MD-88 so I guess it wouldn't be a 1 for 1 replacement. Unless they also plan to use E195s to replace part of the M88 fleet in which case a mix of e195 and 738 would make sense.

I imagine it will be like AA is doing (or was doing with 738s) 3 for 2 or so. Probably a little room for growth.

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 56):

I've been hearing about us moving to T1 and T2 (or maybe it was T2 and T3...can't remember) and leaving T5/6 but I can't see that happening unless it would result in a net gain of gates/space.
T2/3. not sure how much extra space directly Delta will get but moving over to CUTE T2 should allow them more flexibility because (in theory) they will have more space at off peak times. Sounds like they will gain an extra gate or two but extra widebody gates and being with AF/KL/AM/VS/VA is very important. Plus possible TBIT use.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 58):

However, at some point there is a tension that will break. Loyalty versus profit. The organization may choose profit over loyalty today which is probably the right decision, but at some point the economy will go into the tank again, people will fly less and those who were loyal may remember the incessant enhancements that took place over the last few years against Medallion members.

Sorry but I am in the camp of FFs were getting way to much just to case market share. I hope that when things go back down hill the airlines don't go back to tossing as much "free" stuff to gain loyalty.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 60):

Unless you know me, don't assume anything. I buy first.

then, honestly non-smart ass question, why are you complaining about it being harder to upgrade into F?

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 61):

Question: If Anderson is quoted as saying that operating MD88s can still be quite profitable at $90 barrel prices, why add at least another $1-2B of debt to replace them when oil prices are at $40 a barrel?

First, not sure where you are getting this 1-2B of debt figure from. Delta is taking aircraft left and right an debt is decreasing. Delta wont be taking on a huge amount of debt to replace any fleet.

2nd, why replace them? because DL is about to basically be the only at large operator of the M80 aircraft in the world. Supply chain costs on the airplane is just going to get higher and higher even with the part out program.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 63):

That's probably a factor. But it seems even with the increased cost in parts, a large batch order would still be well under $1-2B; if controlling capex is still the priority.

Controlling capex is the priority.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 63):

Also, wasn't there talk of DL working towards producing the MD88 parts in-house in these threads?

Okay lets just pretend for a moment that TechOps some how has the ability and tooling to just start making all kinds of airplane parts
You do realize how much extra cost it will add to build airplane parts for one fleet type?

TechOps can(and does) produce some small things fleet wide in some of the back shops but being able to complete lose OEM support is not an option for any aircraft in the fleet. Even if they could, the cost would be way to large.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 64):
they'd save billions in skipping a marginally better generation of airplane

Marginally? Doesn't the 737MAX have something like 15-20% better fuel burn than JT8D powered airplanes? That isn't marginal at all.

and highly unlikely a 737 sized NSA/MOM/Whatever the name is this week happens in time for it to replace the M88. Chances are Boeing is going to go 757 replacement first then downsize later to replace the 737-8.

In the MAX fleet the -8 isn't the problem and will be able to compete just fine against the 320NEO. Its the -9 v 321NEO that is the problem. No need to replace a plane that is competing just fine.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 66):

What does this mean?

Line station?
I means line maintenance. In other words very light MX work (ie something small breaks at the gate) and probably RON work.

[Edited 2015-11-16 04:40:20]
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 52):
Delta's next big thing is to gut loyalty of any member who does not pay for first.

EconomyComfort+ is he new F classsssss

I think Delta will measure loyalty even more closely by dollars spent rather than but in seat miles. I am fine with this personally. I can see Comfort + upgrades being included as a loyalty benefit. I still think that customers who regularly spend 5 and 6 figured annually will be rewarded for loyalty, regardless of paid fare class. Delta is not stupid - they know that corporate travelers often buy international business class, but domestic coach, at least for flights 4 hours or less. They'll reward those travelers to try and get the international business class tickets.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
BDL757
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:49 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 57):
T2/T3

Thanks!

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
T2/3. not sure how much extra space directly Delta will get but moving over to CUTE T2 should allow them more flexibility because (in theory) they will have more space at off peak times. Sounds like they will gain an extra gate or two but extra widebody gates and being with AF/KL/AM/VS/VA is very important. Plus possible TBIT use.

Interesting. Thank you for the info. I never thought about moving to be with other SkyTeam and JV partners which is definitely a good idea.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:33 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
First, not sure where you are getting this 1-2B of debt figure from.

Well, another few 752 retirements and the MD88 will have the largest count of any single variant in DL's fleet.

I'm making the assumption that DL replaces the capacity of nearly 120 aircraft with all new build 738/737-8 MAX. Or MAX and E190/E2. Either way, unless a significant portion is replaced by used aircraft (which is possible at DL), I don't think a final price tag north of 9-figures is that outlandish.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
2nd, why replace them? because DL is about to basically be the only at large operator of the M80 aircraft in the world

If AA were to hold steady with 100 frames for the next 7-10 years, do you think DL would maintain it's fleet rather than replace? i.e. Would it make any difference? (This is not a rhetorical question).

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
You do realize how much extra cost it will add to build airplane parts for one fleet type?

I do not have any professional aviation industry experience, so that's why I posed the question.

As far as one fleet, are there not part commonalities with the MD90 and 717? That's about 270 aircraft. Even if it's just the M90, that's still almost 200. Perhaps a little bit easier to absorb than say, any unique 764/753 part.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 64):
they'd save billions in skipping a marginally better generation of airplane

Marginally? Doesn't the 737MAX have something like 15-20% better fuel burn than JT8D powered airplanes? That isn't marginal at all.

and highly unlikely a 737 sized NSA/MOM/Whatever the name is this week happens in time for it to replace the M88. Chances are Boeing is going to go 757 replacement first then downsize later to replace the 737-8.

But the 737MAX could very well be obsolete itself not long after EIS. If DL could bridge the gap until NSA, you may not need another replacement for 30+ years in that category.

As far as which new type happens first, who knows? Maybe they will all be one type, with the 757 replacement as the stretch version. A new design won't have the 739 syndrome.   
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8269
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):

First, not sure where you are getting this 1-2B of debt figure from. Delta is taking aircraft left and right an debt is decreasing. Delta wont be taking on a huge amount of debt to replace any fleet.

2nd, why replace them? because DL is about to basically be the only at large operator of the M80 aircraft in the world. Supply chain costs on the airplane is just going to get higher and higher even with the part out program.
Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 71):
Well, another few 752 retirements and the MD88 will have the largest count of any single variant in DL's fleet.

I'm making the assumption that DL replaces the capacity of nearly 120 aircraft with all new build 738/737-8 MAX. Or MAX and E190/E2. Either way, unless a significant portion is replaced by used aircraft (which is possible at DL), I don't think a final price tag north of 9-figures is that outlandish.

I suspect you'll see a portion of the MD88 fleet/capacity replaced by a combination of new build and used aircraft when that time comes around the 2020-2022 timeframe. They can probably cut the fleet down to about 60-70 frames and still utilize/canabalize existing and retired frames but ultimately the parts supply chain and OEM support will run its course.

Used airframes are a possibility too A319/A320 and 738 aircraft as availability and cost dictate.
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 71):
But the 737MAX could very well be obsolete itself not long after EIS. If DL could bridge the gap until NSA, you may not need another replacement for 30+ years in that category.

Exactly. The NSA should be another 15% more efficient on top of the MAX which is ~15% better than the 88. If they can hold out and jump an entire generation, they'd save a fortune in replacing both the 88 and the MAX shortly after that.

Frankly I'm amazed other airlines are falling for the temporary solution of the MAX/NEO. It's marginally better than the 737NG/A320 but costs a LOT more, only to be made obsolete a few years later.

It's all about ROI: the MAX won't pay for itself in a decade. Delta has squeezed almost 30 years out of the 88. They like extremely long return times.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
FlyMKG
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:20 am

Move to T2 and T3 in LAX.

Shift some of the 175s from LAX to SEA to continue the fight with Alaska

Shift even more 175s to BOS to start a fight with JetBlue

FlyMKG
 
carljanderson
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:34 pm

Wonder how much they'll show or hint at during their investor day presentation on Dec. 17.
 
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
Fully expect at least MSP-PVG and JFK-PVG over time. Also at least one more PEK/HKG flight

Interesting on the PVG routes especially MSP. I can see JFK more than MSP, but one has to wonder if either comes at the expense (in terms of profitability) of DTW. I could see another PEK flight, LAX I think will be the choice. HKG is interesting, especially with the "seasonal" cut. Though it isn't hard to imagine a weekly HKG split between SEA and DTW while keeping the NRT connection.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
Having said that I do think we will see the US airlines pressure the US government to start negotiations over a expanded bilateral with China. Open skies is what they will want, but IMO its highly unlikely China agrees.

I think you will see the expanded bilateral, but I think China will play hardball. I do not see open skies happening at any point in the near future. The US3 should be careful what they wish for in that respect as they will be basically opening up the US to a bunch of state run carriers, which supposedly they are against. It will also be interesting to see how much China trying to influence HKG will affect air travel and if that could possibly factor into bilateral talks.
 
AABB777
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: Delta Next Big Thing?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 77):
I think you will see the expanded bilateral, but I think China will play hardball. I do not see open skies happening at any point in the near future. The US3 should be careful what they wish for in that respect as they will be basically opening up the US to a bunch of state run carriers, which supposedly they are against. It will also be interesting to see how much China trying to influence HKG will affect air travel and if that could possibly factor into bilateral talks.

Just a small correction to the statement above. The US3 are not against state-run airlines. The US3 are against airlines having unrestricted access to the U.S. market while being subsidized by their respective governments in violation of trade agreements.

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