csavel
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NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:12 am

From yesterday's New York Times.

Article title: At Aeroflot, It’s Patriotism Over Profits as Russia Pressures Industry

Link : http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/business/international/aeroflot-heeds-the-call-to-buy-russian.html

Article is a mishmash of what I don't know. Gist is Aeroflot is being "forced" by Putin to take these rattletraps Sukhoi superjets. No mention of Interjet's quite successful use of the flying Natashas. No mention of Aeroflot already having bought the Superjet before Russia's economic meltdown.

First three paragraphs probably tell you all you need to know:

"MOSCOW — All smiles and cheery banter, the flight attendants greeted travelers on board Russia’s newest passenger jet.

“Welcome aboard and watch your head,” one attendant chirped courteously, holding her gloved hand atop the airplane’s diminutive door frame, lest passengers knock their heads.

As Aeroflot folds Russian-made jets back into its fleet, cramped doorways are just one of its challenges."


Really surprised by this article and its tone. For all the NY Times' faults, when it comes to international news, esp. international business news, they are better than other US papers. Admittedly the bar is not very high there.


Note to mods: Did search with multiple terms and nothing showed up on this. Apologies and feel free to delete if already posted.
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r2rho
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:21 pm

Wow, this article is so full of Cold War-mindset prejudices, it's not even worth commenting...
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting csavel (Thread starter):

The WSJ has the best international business reporting for a US based paper. I know their editorials lean right which certain folks abhor but their business reporting is on much higher level compared to the Times. This poorly researched article proves the point.

- IZB

[Edited 2015-11-13 06:41:06]
 
voodoo
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:04 pm

Wow.. that article is like some sort of reverse-Pravda article from the 1970s. Pitiful.
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incitatus
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:11 pm

One of the main messages in the article is related to the SSJ - that it is not a good aircraft, starting with a boarding door that is too small.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
RIX
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:17 pm

I've never considered NYT as "good source of international news", and the article is plain unfriendly, but saying patriotism is indeed over profits there it doesn't twist anything. Other than calling Crimea a disputed peninsula, of course (was Kuwait a disputed Iraqi province in 1990?). And maybe overstating "notorious rudeness": flying with them last time in 2000 - that is, years before they hired those "Chinese consultants", - I found the cabin crews polite and professional. Much more so than AA in same 2000.
 
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airzim
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:55 pm

The article is pretty fair. What specially is false or misleading?

The SuperJet is a dud. Just look at the sales to date.

Aeroflot has made tremendous strides improving their safety record and service standards.

The Russian economy is tightening and the government is pressing the national carrier to purchase locally made jets.

Sounds live a fair assessment.
 
bwaflyer
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting csavel (Thread starter):
“Welcome aboard and watch your head,” one attendant chirped courteously, holding her gloved hand atop the airplane’s diminutive door frame, lest passengers knock their heads.

Funnily enough I was doing the exact same thing on a 767 earlier today! Admittedly we had some very tall passengers!
 
N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 6):
The SuperJet is a dud

Interjet, CityJet, and VLM would disagree with you. It's the first Russian airliner to have a presence in the western world, and fits the tiny niche between the EMB-190/5 and the A319. All things considered, it isn't doing bad.

Quoting csavel (Thread starter):
"MOSCOW — All smiles and cheery banter, the flight attendants greeted travelers on board Russia’s newest passenger jet.

“Welcome aboard and watch your head,” one attendant chirped courteously, holding her gloved hand atop the airplane’s diminutive door frame, lest passengers knock their heads.

As Aeroflot folds Russian-made jets back into its fleet, cramped doorways are just one of its challenges."

What an utterly ridiculous anecdote. I suppose the Canadian planes are crappy as well because of their small doors and tiny lavatories?  

[Edited 2015-11-13 15:42:00]
 
alfa164
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 8):
I suppose the Canadian planes are crappy as well because of their small doors and tiny lavatories?

Actually, they are. Thus almost everyone's preference for the Embrear planes.
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airzim
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 8):
Interjet, CityJet, and VLM would disagree with you. It's the first Russian airliner to have a presence in the western world, and fits the tiny niche between the EMB-190/5 and the A319. All things considered, it isn't doing bad.

All things considered, it's doing terribly. No major Western carrier will ever fly this plane. I don't see VLM on the list, but outside InterJet, a questionable CityJet order, and Russian sphere token orders, who else is going to buy this frame?

This aircraft (ignoring all the other significant issues), like the MRJ, is 7 years too late and delivers nothing that an already proven aircraft in the market already delivers. The fact that it's cheap is never going to be enough.
 
N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 9):
Actually, they are.

Uh, no, they aren't. Over 2800 of the CRJ and Dash 8 series have been produced so far, and you can't go to any airport on earth without seeing a swarm of them buzzing around. The airlines seem to like them just fine. From a customer comfort standpoint, they're less comfortable because they're small aircraft, but most people can deal with being a little cramped for an hour or two. Also, 99.99% of customers can't tell the difference between a CRJ-200 and an E145. The point of my comment was that the part of the article I referenced had a tone like "Ha! What a crappy Russian airplane! They can't even build good doors!"

Quoting airzim (Reply 10):
All things considered, it's doing terribly.

Keep in mind that I was never trying to imply that the SSJ has hit it out of the park. It's an aircraft serving a tiny niche, built by the Russians whose airliners have NEVER seen any degree of commercial success outside russian/soviet satellites. However, Interjet, a North American carrier, has fallen head over heels for it, two well known EU carriers have shown interest, and 100 have been built. It'll never be the next E-Jet, but it has shown that the Russians are capable of building an aircraft safe and efficient enough to make some Western carriers interested in operating it. If Putin hadn't alienated the entire sane world, it may have been the start of a successful Russian airliner industry. As for the MRJ, it only just started flight testing, so it's a little early to write it off as a failure.
 
alfa164
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:57 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 11):
Uh, no, they aren't.

Actually, they are... very crappy. There were lots of Ford Pintos on the road, too... and they were crappy.

Just because you see a lot of them doesn't make them any better.
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N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 12):
Actually, they are... very crappy.

Ok, tell me why then. "I have to duck a little when I use the toilet" isn't a valid example. I'm really curious to find out why Bombardier regional planes are so bad at the mission they were designed for if they're operated in droves by/for many major airlines.
 
aviationaware
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:26 am

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 2):
The WSJ has the best international business reporting for a US based paper.

The Wall Street Journal has seen its value go down 90% from 5 billion to 500 million. It's a total trash can that nobody respects.
 
rbavfan
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:26 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 8):
and fits the tiny niche between the EMB-190/5 and the A319. All things considered, it isn't doing bad.

You realize is seats 98 @ 32" and so does the E190. So how exactly does it fit between the E190/5 & A319.
 
LJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 8):
Interjet, CityJet, and VLM would disagree with you. It's the first Russian airliner to have a presence in the western world, and fits the tiny niche between the EMB-190/5 and the A319. All things considered, it isn't doing bad.

VLM doesn't have any SSJ on order.

BTW We do have to be fair. The SSJ is not 100% Russian on not only the parts are from a lot of other companies, but a certain cpompany from the US acted as consultant on this project. Thus when the NY Times blames the Russians for the narrow doors it should blame Chicago/Seattle as well for the design.
 
Millenium
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:12 pm

The low door statement seems to be just rubbish.

Main front passenger door hight:
SSJ 100
1.83m

http://www.superjetinternational.com.../uploads/ssj100_datasheet_2011.pdf

B737 all models
1.83m

www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/737.pdf

A320
1.85m

http://www.airbus.com/support/mainte...cal-data/aircraft-characteristics/

To me it looks it's within normal western aerospace industry standard, what do you people think?

Regards
Regards
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:48 pm

This article just shows that the USA is not far from Russia in one sided journalism, I have recently seen that most US news outlets have been writing only one sided articles and this is obviously one of them.

The SSJ is not even a home grown jet, Even Boeing had a part in putting it together.

Very weird.
 
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airzim
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:18 pm

Has anyone read the article? Or at least past the first paragraph about a low door on entry.

The article is spot on.

Aeroflot was a basketcase, rebuilt it's reputation by modernizing the fleet and improving service standards.

The government has 'suggested' that Aeroflot purchase large numbers of Russian made airplanes, and take over responsibility for Transaero in order to assist the local economy. So far anything untrue?

Proof is in the sales numbers. The plane provides nothing that existing airplanes don't already provide, except better. Not really argumentative.

The real interesting test will be which European major allows CityJet to fly this plane under their banner. I suspect none.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 18):
This article just shows that the USA is not far from Russia in one sided journalism, I have recently seen that most US news outlets have been writing only one sided articles and this is obviously one of them.
 
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Revelation
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 11):

Keep in mind that I was never trying to imply that the SSJ has hit it out of the park. It's an aircraft serving a tiny niche, built by the Russians whose airliners have NEVER seen any degree of commercial success outside russian/soviet satellites.

And one company who should be entirely familiar with the reasons for this lack of success would be Aeroflot, no?

Unfortunately the article does not ever prove its central point:

Quote:
To help support homegrown companies in the midst of a downturn and Western sanctions, the government is pushing Aeroflot to buy the new Russian Superjets by Sukhoi.

So the article is at best innuendo.
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2175301
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 14):
The Wall Street Journal has seen its value go down 90% from 5 billion to 500 million.

That has more to do with the fact that there is no longer any profit in printing and selling newspapers (print operations typically lose money at this point). All newspapers have lost most of their value from the past for similar reasons. Many have gone bankrupt.

Now, the value is just based on the value of their news; and many people read it electronically.

Edited to add: I personally trust the WSJ as more reliable than the NY Times.


Have a great day,

[Edited 2015-11-14 12:14:23]
 
jeffh747
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 13):
find out why Bombardier regional planes are so bad at the mission they were designed for if they're operated in droves by

Because from a passenger standpoint, there are very poorly designed? Sat in row 1- a bulkhead on a thirty minute flight from JFK-PHL in a CRJ200. One of the most uncomfortable flights I've ever taken.
Less than two months later, I'm in the back of an Embraer 145 flying for about an hour twenty from CLE-ORD and I walked off of one of the most comfortable rides I've ever taken- which includes mainline A320s and 737s. From a passenger standpoint, the Embraer is just a better airplane, and I take every chance I get to fly on them.
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thekorean
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:19 pm

Aeroflot is a government owned airline...

If we are gonna accuse them of buying SSJ for patriotism can we not suspect AF the same for A380?
 
N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 23):
Because from a passenger standpoint, there are very poorly designed?

Ok, so CRJs are uncomfortable. I never denied that. I've flown on both the CRJ and ERJ many times, so I know first hand that they aren't the best ride in the sky. But HOW does that make them bad aircraft?? Why would an airline look at an aircraft and say 'the passengers will be uncomfortable, but hell, we'll take 100"? Because the aircraft can make the airline money in some way. I fail to see why you and ALFA164 consider Bombardiers complete pieces of crap because the cabin is a bit cramped. 1500 CRJs and 1100 Dash-8s remain in operation, and there are 116 orders for them on the books. I guess these numbers mean nothing to you.
 
alfa164
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 24):
I fail to see why you and ALFA164 consider Bombardiers complete pieces of crap because the cabin is a bit cramped.

Maybe because we sometimes have to fly in them - unless we can find a way to avoid them.   

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 24):
Ok, so CRJs are uncomfortable. I never denied that.

I think you answered your own question.
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Pyrex
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 14):
The Wall Street Journal has seen its value go down 90% from 5 billion to 500 million. It's a total trash can that nobody respects.

Clearly you are not in their target audience (people who do business for a living, the vast, vast majority of whom respect it even if they disagree with its stance on issues).
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N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 25):

I think you answered your own question.

Whatever. You seem incapable of listening to anything I'm saying. Passenger comfort is the ultimate measure of a plane's value. Everything else, like fuel efficiency, reliability, how well it fits into an airline's network, or safety, is secondary. Got it. A+ argument sir :^)

[Edited 2015-11-14 18:24:28]
 
Ruscoe
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 27):
Passenger comfort is the ultimate measure of a plane's value. Everything else, like fuel efficiency, reliability, how well it fits into an airline's network, or safety, is secondary. Got it. A+ argument sir :^)

From whose point of view?

I've flown Embraer, Dash this and that and CRJ so many times, and they are all fine for the lengths they are designed for.

I am also one of those people who isn't more comfortable (or less) in the 320 compared with the 737. If I had to pick the most important factor for comfort, I would go with pitch, but these things are very personal.

Ruscoe
 
alfa164
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 27):
Whatever. You seem incapable of listening to anything I'm saying

Not incapable... just not convinced. You seem tom think that, because there are hundreds of them in operation, that proves they aren't crappy. All that proves is: 1) they were in the market early; and 2) the did an adequate job, with an adequate ROI, for the airlines.

Like I said before, you could say the same thing about the Ford Pinto; it sold a lot - millions, actually... so you say it wasn't a crappy car?

It was crappy... and so are the CRJ's.
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Viscount724
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 29):
Like I said before, you could say the same thing about the Ford Pinto; it sold a lot - millions, actually... so you say it wasn't a crappy car?

It was crappy... and so are the CRJ's.

But the Pinto wasn't as crappy as the Chevy Vega. Don't think it would have been possible to be worse than the Vega (with the possible exception of the Yugo.)

I don't consider all CRJs bad. Try AC (Jazz) CRJ-705s (CRJ-900s with fewer seats). They're very nice with the same seatback PTVs as the mainline AC fleet, and 34 inch seat pitch in Y class, the best of the entire AC mainline or regional fleet.


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[Edited 2015-11-14 19:22:46]
 
N415XJ
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RE: NY Times Article: Aeroflot Takes On For Country?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 29):
the did an adequate job, with an adequate ROI, for the airlines.

=it's done what it was designed to do. Also keep in mind that I never said the CRJ is the best thing since sliced bread, just that it isn't "crappy". And as for the Ford Pinto,

Quote:
In 1977 controversy surrounding the Pinto erupted after revelations that its structural design allowed its fuel tank filler neck to break off and the fuel tank to be punctured in a rear-end collision, resulting in serious and potentially deadly fires from spilled fuel.


So, 7 years after they were introduced a fatal design error was uncovered, and the car was quickly discontinued a few years later. Your analogy is more relevant to the DC-10, if anything (and that's pushing it). Until news comes out of a deadly flaw in the CRJ's design that was covered up by Bombardier using unethical business practices, you won't convince me (or any thinking person) that the CRJ is an objectively bad airplane.

Quoting ALFA164 (Reply 29):
You seem tom think that, because there are hundreds of them in operation, that proves they aren't crappy

Usually sustained sales over several decades and a lack of serious fatal disasters means that an aircraft is doing reasonably well. I guess we have different definitions of "crappy". Yours seems to be 'crappy: a plane that is configured by an airline in a way that makes me uncomfortable'. Mine is 'crappy: a plane that is either fatally unsafe due to a major design problem, cannot achieve what it was designed to do, or both'.

[Edited 2015-11-14 21:14:26]

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