717atOGG
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How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:23 pm

I highly doubt a 737 MAX 8 could do KEF-SEA or KEF-PDX and those routes make money for FI so why buy those? The 752's aren't that old so I think 787's would have been more logical.
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lesfalls
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):

They will have 3 767s in the fleet so they can still operate those routes with the 767s while the East coast can be served with the 737MAX's. FI also probably has some other plans but they haven't released them like their 767 plans were only announced 5 months ago.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:51 pm

They're gonna have to bulk load all those fish!  
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:57 pm

757's are bulkload only too

[Edited 2015-11-14 08:57:36]
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kelvin933
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting 717atOGG (Thread starter):
I highly doubt a 737 MAX 8 could do KEF-SEA or KEF-PDX and those routes make money for FI so why buy those? The 752's aren't that old so I think 787's would have been more logical.

737MAX8 can do KEF-YHZ, KEF-YYZ, KEF-YUL, KEF-BOS, KEF-JFK, KEF-EWR, KEF-IAD, KEF-ORD so they do complement the 752 nicely by being slightly smaller, 156pax vs 183pax and having lower trip cost (fuel).
Doubt we will see the MAX9 in the US or Canada.
The main reason for buying the MAX was to get an aircraft better suited to the European part of the network, some of the European routes struggle to fill the 752.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:16 pm

They also have (or had) at least one 787 on order, didn't they?
 
mjoelnir
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 4):
The main reason for buying the MAX was to get an aircraft better suited to the European part of the network, some of the European routes struggle to fill the 752.

Load factors do not show that. But FI could add slim routes.

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 4):
Doubt we will see the MAX9 in the US or Canada.

If the 737-8 manages those routes, the 737-9 should too.

The main reason for the move to 737 is the reduction in cost. The 737 will do routes they will be able to do comfortable with pax and freight. The 757 and 767 will be used on routes needing more range or capacity.

I do not know what will happen to the one 787 still on order. I expect FI to take a second one, If they decide to really use it themselves. If the oil price does stay down, I expect them rather to add used 767.

[Edited 2015-11-14 10:20:37]
 
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Polot
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:41 pm

I believe FI intends to lease out the 787 like they use to do with the 767.
 
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kelvin933
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 6):
Load factors do not show that. But FI could add slim routes.

Really, the BGO SVG TRD planes are always full ?
The GLA-KEF, GOT-KEF and BLL-KEF planes is always over 80% ?
There are routes that are pretty thin in the current network that would be better served with smaller planes.
There is a reason why KEF-ABZ is started with a Q400 and not a 752.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 8):

Five routes are no reason to go for a new type. And how low are the load factors really? GLA sees a frequency increase this winter compared to last winter. The main difference would be being able to KEF - BGO -KEF instead of KEF - BGO - SVG/TRD - KEF. But GLA, BGO, SVG, TRD, GOT could be an argument for adding 3 - 4 737 and perhaps used ones, but FI ordered 17 737-8/9.

ABZ FI can do with a 757-200, but a 737-8 could have use for a longer runway. But we see perhps that runway extended in a few years.

[Edited 2015-11-14 10:38:40]

[Edited 2015-11-14 10:41:02]

[Edited 2015-11-14 10:41:43]
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:38 pm

If I am correct about fourteen 757s are from 1989 through1994. So some of these aircraft are starting to get a little long in the tooth. They range in age from 21 to 25 years in age.
So, replacements are on the horizon. AirFleets says there are two more 757s on order from about 2000 to add to their remaining passenger 757s of the same vintage.   
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mjoelnir
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):
If I am correct about fourteen 757s are from 1989 through1994. So some of these aircraft are starting to get a little long in the tooth. They range in age from 21 to 25 years in age.
So, replacements are on the horizon. AirFleets says there are two more 757s on order from about 2000 to add to their remaining passenger 757s of the same vintage.   

FI will be using 757 for quite a while. They moved flight training home and installed a spanking new simulator for the 757 here in Iceland. (I assume they will be able to do also 767 on that one).
I expect it being no problem replacing older 757 with newer ones, meanwhile one does not see any difference flying the older ones, they seem all to be in good shape.
 
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kelvin933
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):

There are 12 passenger 752s manufactured before 1995 most of them will probably not last much beyond 2020.
I expect some late model 752 and 753 to replace them for missions where the MAX8 are not usable
(PDX, YVR, SEA) or not economically viable (YEG, DEN, MCO).
Also look at when the MOM/NMA is rumored to EIS, in the past this was 2025 but in the latest rumor this has moved to 2023. If Boeing actually announces the MOM/NMA in 2016 expect FI to extend the life of the 752s until they can receive MOMs.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 12):
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):

There are 12 passenger 752s manufactured before 1995 most of them will probably not last much beyond 2020.
I expect some late model 752 and 753 to replace them for missions where the MAX8 are not usable
(PDX, YVR, SEA) or not economically viable (YEG, DEN, MCO).
Also look at when the MOM/NMA is rumored to EIS, in the past this was 2025 but in the latest rumor this has moved to 2023. If Boeing actually announces the MOM/NMA in 2016 expect FI to extend the life of the 752s until they can receive MOMs.

MOM is as it is a rumor. And yes I expect FI to buy if it comes. But if it does not come soon, decision wise, and Airbus is expanding on its A321 theme, it could happen that FI will be forced to buy something not named Boeing.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:58 pm

They will be launch customer for the 797.
 
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kelvin933
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 14):
They will be launch customer for the 797.

Have you been reading John Wojicks interviews ?
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:03 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 13):
But if it does not come soon, decision wise, and Airbus is expanding on its A321 theme, it could happen that FI will be forced to buy something not named Boeing.

I see no reason that they would avoid an A321 if it meets their needs. I'm just not educated as to whether it does or not - enough, at least, to replace the 757's.

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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting kelvin933 (Reply 4):
The main reason for buying the MAX was to get an aircraft better suited to the European part of the network, some of the European routes struggle to fill the 752.

Really?

If that is the fact why has the 737-800 not bin part of the fleet for the last 10 years?

Why has FI ignored the 737-800 and 737-900 for the last 10 years, and suddenly the airline doubles in size and desides to bring in MAX8 and MAX9, types that do not bring any added value to the network than their predecessors, apart from less fuel burn.

Does not make any sense to me.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:09 am

The 737 max cannot replace the 757 on all routes, if anything the only 'existing' narrowbody that could is the new A321NeoLR..i still think Icelandair could order it someday, but the Max will still be good for smaller European routes and new routes that a 757 couldn't justify.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:49 am

I still believe a fleet of A321LR combined with 3-4 787-8 would be best for FI. There's no direct replacement for 757 and 767, but a mix of those two comes close. The A330-800 (A330-200neo) would most likely be too large, but would be better for fleet commonality.

The 737MAX will probably be good planes, and I suspect FI got them very cheap. But they're painting themselves into a corner, using two aircraft types going extinct (757 and 767 pax), and then order a bunch of planes that are too small and don't have the range to replace them.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:43 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 19):
I still believe a fleet of A321LR combined with 3-4 787-8 would be best for FI. There's no direct replacement for 757 and 767, but a mix of those two comes close. The A330-800 (A330-200neo) would most likely be too large, but would be better for fleet commonality.

While I think the A321 is compelling, I am starting to see the logic of the Boeing MOM concept as a replacement for the 757/767 in their fleet, with the MAX taking care of the shorter/lighter destinations.

That's a long ways away though. In the interim, I guess that they can acquire some newer 757's as needed.

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mjoelnir
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:34 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 17):
Why has FI ignored the 737-800 and 737-900 for the last 10 years, and suddenly the airline doubles in size and desides to bring in MAX8 and MAX9, types that do not bring any added value to the network than their predecessors, apart from less fuel burn.

I think you have supplied your own answer. FI is growing and the added size allows for the possibility of operating more than one type of air plane economically. And yes, the lower fuel burn is what makes the 737MAX attractive. Lower fuel burn also increases range or payload at the same range.

The main error in the thread start is, FI is not replacing the 757, they are adding the 737MAX.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:11 am

DHL have taken some FI B757's already.
The replacement for 757 at FI is the same for DHL, A321 doesn't do the job, MAX is a lower load.
Personally I hope Mr Boeing provides an answer
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:26 am

Quoting anjin (Reply 22):
DHL have taken some FI B757's already.

Those birds were not owned by FI, but leased. They were some of the newest ones at FI, TF-FIY and TF-FIZ, l/n 943 and 948, original Iberia frames delivered 10/2000 and 12/2000.
 
packsonflight
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:51 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):

I think you have supplied your own answer. FI is growing and the added size allows for the possibility of operating more than one type of air plane economically. And yes, the lower fuel burn is what makes the 737MAX attractive. Lower fuel burn also increases range or payload at the same range.

To me, adding MAX to FI fleet in 2017 does not make any sense. What I can not get my head around is why the management did not se fit adding 737-800 and 737-900 when they where paying 1400$ for ton of fuel, and then it suddenly makes sense to bring in smaller type when KEF airport is totally exhausted.

It is also strange how they ignore 321NEOLR, an aircraft capable of hauling 180 pax to SEA (sans fish)
But it could do the fish to the east coast.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 24):
To me, adding MAX to FI fleet in 2017 does not make any sense. What I can not get my head around is why the management did not se fit adding 737-800 and 737-900 when they where paying 1400$ for ton of fuel, and then it suddenly makes sense to bring in smaller type when KEF airport is totally exhausted.

It is also strange how they ignore 321NEOLR, an aircraft capable of hauling 180 pax to SEA (sans fish)
But it could do the fish to the east coast.

They ordered the 737MAX before the oil price came down.Yes, the 737-800 would perhaps been suitable before, but the decision was than to stay with one type. The added economy of the MAX seem to have them convinced in the end, who knows were the fuel price will be after 2017. They still can do what they did with the 737-800, lease them out or sell them on. Regarding the A321LR, they seem to look at that frame not as a replacement for the 757, as the MAX is not a replacement but an addition.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:36 pm

Shifting to a smaller, but more numerous fleet, signifies a change of strategy towards frequency over capacity. Which is fine, provided your hub can accommodate the increased number of aircraft and passengers.

So before we start questioning FI's choice of carriage, ask first what are the expansion plans for KEF.

FI is a devoted Boeing customers, and that's fine too. Would a change to an A32xneo fleet have provided operational benefits over a 73xMAX fleet? Quite possibly, particularly at the upper end of the product range. However, there's much more to running an airline fleet than CASM, range and runway performance. Those are major factors, yes, but FI have obviously run the sums, as those sums work for them, and found it better to stick with Boeing.

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mjoelnir
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 26):
Shifting to a smaller, but more numerous fleet, signifies a change of strategy towards frequency over capacity. Which is fine, provided your hub can accommodate the increased number of aircraft and passengers.

So before we start questioning FI's choice of carriage, ask first what are the expansion plans for KEF.

Icelandair has not only ordered the 737MAX, but starts next year using the 767-300ER so overall I do not see a strategy of frequency over capacity, rather increasing the ability to match frequency and route.

KEF is increasing capacity. Both the check in area and the arrival hall has been expanded. The capacity of the bag handling system has been doubled. And an extension to the southern building is being finished, adding 6 gates for remote stands. Further expansion to the northern building should start soon.
But it seems that growth in passenger numbers outstrips expansion plans and though FI is growing fast, traffic at KEF is growing still faster, due to a big part to the increasing numbers of airlines adding KEF to their destinations.
 
packsonflight
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 25):
They ordered the 737MAX before the oil price came down.Yes, the 737-800 would perhaps been suitable before, but the decision was than to stay with one type. The added economy of the MAX seem to have them convinced in the end, who knows were the fuel price will be after 2017. They still can do what they did with the 737-800, lease them out or sell them on. Regarding the A321LR, they seem to look at that frame not as a replacement for the 757, as the MAX is not a replacement but an addition.

Why they do not see the 321LR as a 757 replacement is bizzare, because everybody else does. On top of that, if they would go with the 321LR they could add to the fleet old 319, 320 and 321 for optimum fleet flexibility, and retain single rating pilot pool which has served them so well in the past.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 28):
Why they do not see the 321LR as a 757 replacement is bizzare, because everybody else does.

Not everybody, only those that do not care about belly freight. The additional fuel tanks do no leave a lot of free volume in the belly on the A321.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 28):
On top of that, if they would go with the 321LR they could add to the fleet old 319, 320 and 321 for optimum fleet flexibility, and retain single rating pilot pool which has served them so well in the past.
FI is adding 767 and can use the same pilot pool as for the 757. I expect the differential training between 737 and 757/767 also to be quite short.
The move to Airbus would only be an advantage, if they exchange everything. That means also A330 with the A320 series.
FI would than also have to move their wet lease, flight training and MRO business over to Airbus types, including replacing there several 737,757 and 767. Quite a big step.

And all that out of me, who is an Airbus fan.

[Edited 2015-11-15 10:36:19]
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 29):
And all that out of me, who is an Airbus fan.

Indeed   Very good analysis though, makes absolute sense as to why FI has decided on the 737MAX. Thank you.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 29):
And all that out of me, who is an Airbus fan.

It's been refreshing.  

Personally, I think the A321neo is the airframe that will pull a lot of former 737NG airlines into the Airbus world. When you want to operate a single type, and you need the capability of the A321neo, it's a no-brainer all else being equal.

With FI, the 737MAX just hasn't resonated with me, and while I'm likely not as much of a Boeing fan as you are an Airbus fan, I nonetheless root for the hometown boys. I'm guessing mid-2020's that the MOM will put all the headscratching to rest.

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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
The main error in the thread start is, FI is not replacing the 757, they are adding the 737MAX.

  
They will likely replace some of the 757's but the bulk of the MAX routes will be to Europe and Eastern U.S. The 757 will still operate the longer routes until the time comes for them to be replaced with something else but that could still be a long time in the future.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
They will likely replace some of the 757's but the bulk of the MAX routes will be to Europe and Eastern U.S. The 757 will still operate the longer routes until the time comes for them to be replaced with something else but that could still be a long time in the future.

I believe this is correct. I can't imagine that the MAX could make SEA or DEN reliably year-round, particularly west-bound.
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
They will likely replace some of the 757's but the bulk of the MAX routes will be to Europe and Eastern U.S. The 757 will still operate the longer routes until the time comes for them to be replaced with something else but that could still be a long time in the future.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
I believe this is correct. I can't imagine that the MAX could make SEA or DEN reliably year-round, particularly west-bound.

If they can´t serve their routes, while the A321LR can, then what's the point of having MAX's. I think they know that they made the wrong decision and are thinking of ways to get out of it without too much financial pain i.e. losing deposits. Cancelling their B737 MAX's based on performance concerns and using their deposits for a new B787 order sounds about right to me.

Or maybe if they got a good price on the MAX's they can just sell them or lease them.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 34):

If they can´t serve their routes, while the A321LR can, then what's the point of having MAX's.

Again, my understanding is that the MAX is primarily for European service, existing and expansion. Also, there was no such thing as an A321LR when they ordered the MAX. And thirdly, they could still order the A321LR as 757 replacements when the time comes, or maybe by then there will be a better option.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 34):
If they can´t serve their routes, while the A321LR can, then what's the point of having MAX's

But how many routes can the 737 max actually not service? Looking at their route map, my rough estimate would that 80+% of their routes are under 3,000 miles. The Max can easily accomplish these routes and probably do them better than the A321LR since they will have the belly capacity for cargo. That really just basically leaves the western half of North America requiring 757/767 service.

I am not saying the 737 Max is a better plane or that FI, if starting from scratch would not go all Airbus. I am only saying that assuming FI is not planning to go all Airbus, the A321LR may not be superior for their needs.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting ec99 (Reply 36):
But how many routes can the 737 max actually not service? Looking at their route map, my rough estimate would that 80+% of their routes are under 3,000 miles. The Max can easily accomplish these routes and probably do them better than the A321LR since they will have the belly capacity for cargo. That really just basically leaves the western half of North America requiring 757/767 service.

I doubt the B737-9MAX can realistically make it to any US destinations without major weight restrictions. The -8MAX will make it to a few places. Also, there's no way that the MAX has more cargo capacity than the A321LR on such long routes.

Quoting ec99 (Reply 36):
I am only saying that assuming FI is not planning to go all Airbus, the A321LR may not be superior for their needs.

It would be strange if an airline doesn't choose the best possible airplane based on not wanting to fly either Airbus or Boeing. Generally, airlines just pick the airplanes that would be best for them. If management seriously thinks like that then they should be fired as they are not doing their fiduciary duty to shareholders. Being blindly Pro-Boeing or Pro-Airbus is a pretty stupid business strategy.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 37):
I doubt the B737-9MAX can realistically make it to any US destinations without major weight restrictions. The -8MAX will make it to a few places. Also, there's no way that the MAX has more cargo capacity than the A321LR on such long routes.

As there is very little difference in range between the -8 and -9, about 25 nm, It should make little difference range wise to use the -9 or the -8 to the east coast of North America from KEF.
The A321LR actually sacrifices cargo space for range with 3 ACTs. One of the drawbacks of the A321 is the small capacity of the wing tanks. The A320/321-200 have already the centre tank activated. The A320-200 allows 2 ACT and the A321-200 3 ACT.
So the already smaller hold of of the A321, compared to the 757, gets further reduced by the 3 ATC. So not much space for freight.

Regarding the MAX, perhaps FI will not use all of them, they can always use them for their wet lease operation.
 
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
As there is very little difference in range between the -8 and -9, about 25 nm, It should make little difference range wise to use the -9 or the -8 to the east coast of North America from KEF.
The A321LR actually sacrifices cargo space for range with 3 ACTs. One of the drawbacks of the A321 is the small capacity of the wing tanks. The A320/321-200 have already the centre tank activated. The A320-200 allows 2 ACT and the A321-200 3 ACT.
So the already smaller hold of of the A321, compared to the 757, gets further reduced by the 3 ATC. So not much space for freight.

Regarding the MAX, perhaps FI will not use all of them, they can always use them for their wet lease operation.

This is true, but the ACT can also be removed if they don't need them. As far as I understand, it's a fairly quickly swap? If they operated a fleet of A321LRs and a handful of 787-8s they could have removed ACT on some planes that needed more cargo volume and flown them on routes where the range wasn't needed. Then they could have used the 787-8 on the trunk routes and where the most fish needs to go.

I think the reason Icelandair went for the MAX is that they got a very good deal. Nothing wrong with that, except it was the wrong choice.. in my opinion.
 
eaa3
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
The A321LR actually sacrifices cargo space for range with 3 ACTs. One of the drawbacks of the A321 is the small capacity of the wing tanks. The A320/321-200 have already the centre tank activated. The A320-200 allows 2 ACT and the A321-200 3 ACT.

You can´t compare a B737 with no ACT's and an A321 with ACT's because in that case the A321 has longer range. Without ACT's, a comparable performance with the B737-9, the A321 and B737-9 have almost the exact same cargo capacity around sq. meters. However, the A321 has a higher take off weight so it could probably carry more heavy cargo like fish.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
As there is very little difference in range between the -8 and -9, about 25 nm, It should make little difference range wise to use the -9 or the -8 to the east coast of North America from KEF.

I very much doubt that. The B737-9 is 7% heavier than the B737-8 and has the same engines and fuel capacity. How could they have almost the same range but much heavier. Plus, the range is constricted by the take off angle being very low.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
Regarding the MAX, perhaps FI will not use all of them, they can always use them for their wet lease operation.

You mean like pre-2008 Icelandair. FL Group etc.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 40):
You can´t compare a B737 with no ACT's and an A321 with ACT's because in that case the A321 has longer range.

I compare the A321 with the 757. The 737 will at FI not, at least not fully, replace the 757. The 737 will be operated additional to the 757 and 767. If you tell me that the A320neo series is better than the 737Max, yes I agree. But if you ask if a of mix of A32X with 757 and 767 is better than a mix of 737, 757 and 767 han I have to disagree.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 40):
I very much doubt that. The B737-9 is 7% heavier than the B737-8 and has the same engines and fuel capacity. How could they have almost the same range but much heavier. Plus, the range is constricted by the take off angle being very low.

The -9 carries more fuel than the -8, look up the specs of the -800 and -900. i assume similar fuel loads. I assume a similar take off run for the -9, as for the -900. The 737-900ER can take off in KEF at MTOW.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 40):
You mean like pre-2008 Icelandair. FL Group etc.



I mean like current Icelandair, they operate 737-700,737-800 and 767-300 on wet lease to other airlines. They also used to lease out 757-200. They took the last two 757-200 back from Yakutia in the beginning of last year.
 
prebennorholm
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 24):
To me, adding MAX to FI fleet in 2017 does not make any sense.

Probably not to FI either. The 16 MAX planes on order are planned to be delivered from 2018 through 2021.

All this talk on thread after thread about FI *replacing* 757 by 737 MAX is really quite funny, since during the last more than two and a half years FI has written the following in their web site:

Icelandair’s current fleet of Boeing 757-200 aircraft configured to hold 183 passengers will remain in operation and together with the additional 737 MAX will give Icelandair new options for added frequency and destinations.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:31 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 34):
I think they know that they made the wrong decision and are thinking of ways to get out of it without too much financial pain i.e. losing deposits. Cancelling their B737 MAX's based on performance concerns and using their deposits for a new B787 order sounds about right to me.

Based on....?

Are you suggesting that they were deluded? The NEO was already available when the MAX was launched, so I'm guessing that you are suggesting that they "went funny" when they ordered the MAX?

Just curious. To me, unless the NEO can replace the 757's on all the routes, then perhaps the MAX made just as much sense, particularly if the price was right.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
Just curious. To me, unless the NEO can replace the 757's on all the routes, then perhaps the MAX made just as much sense, particularly if the price was right.

  

I do not know how often one has to repeat the point, the 737MAX is not replacing the 757 at Icelandair.

IMO Icelandair does not see the A321LR as a replacement for the 757-200 either. Icelandair does use the 5 or whatever % capability of the 757 that the A321LR does not reach.
Icelandair does add also the 767, even as on any route that the 757 manages, the 757-200 and especially the 757-300 have the better CASM than the 767-300ER. The 767 is added for the higher capacity to slot restricted airports and the added range over the 757-200.
I do see a reason for Icelandair, as a smallish airline, not to go for a fleet mix out of Boeing and Airbus. A move over to Airbus would than mean A32X + A330.
One should not forget that Icelandair runs its own MRO, that is tailored to Boeing 737, 757 and 767 as it is. The wet lease operation offers 737 and 767. I am sure Icelandair would supply a 757 if a lessee requires one. The charter operation offers mostly 757 in the Icelandic off season.
 
eaa3
Posts: 941
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RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
Are you suggesting that they were deluded? The NEO was already available when the MAX was launched, so I'm guessing that you are suggesting that they "went funny" when they ordered the MAX?

Just curious. To me, unless the NEO can replace the 757's on all the routes, then perhaps the MAX made just as much sense, particularly if the price was right.

Well I'm suggesting they made the wrong decision. I didn't mention anything about them being deluded. Up until the date that the decision was made, the A321NEO was thought to be the likely outcome. I think the more technical people were leaning there. Then Boeing made a final offer and the board made the decision at a meeting last lasted very late into the night. I think the final decision was made at 5am. Ultimately, it was the board that made the decision, going against the recommendations of many. The board of Icelandair is made up of business people from diversified backgrounds, but only one has an actual aviation background. Basically, these are professional board members. The other members include a guy that is the CEO of Toyota in Iceland, an independent consultant, a banker and a tech executive. I think, quite frankly, that the board just looked at the deal that they were being brought and went with the better one, without the technical aspects of the aircraft being a deciding factor. Even at that time, it was clear that the A321NEO would perform better than the B737-9 on longer routes to North America. However, things have changed with the new A321LR, wherein now there is no comparison.

I think the reason they made the wrong decision is that they let the price and financing of the deal overrule the technical aspect of which aircraft would serve them better on their route network. But then the board is made up of business men and women that have no prior experience in aviation. The chairman, Björgólfur, even said the day after the decision that sometimes you have to ignore some of the technical people and be a businessman. Basically, he felt that they got a better deal from Boeing. He also said that it's good to continue the good relationship between Boeing and Icelandair. Essentially, the conservative decision.

http://www.icelandairgroup.is/our-company/board/

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
I do not know how often one has to repeat the point, the 737MAX is not replacing the 757 at Icelandair.

You're a bit of a know it all. I find it quite annoying. Especially, your endless talk about fish. You were after all the one that started that. I've never said that the B737MAX is replacing the B757. I've said that whatever aircraft they get they need the range to be as long as possible so that they can serve North American destinations. The A321 does that for them.

And it's also the only viable replacement for the B757, even if it is slightly smaller and carries less cargo.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
IMO Icelandair does not see the A321LR as a replacement for the 757-200 either. Icelandair does use the 5 or whatever % capability of the 757 that the A321LR does not reach.

There is no direct replacement. The A321LR is the closest you can get and for a while, IMO.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
One should not forget that Icelandair runs its own MRO, that is tailored to Boeing 737, 757 and 767 as it is. The wet lease operation offers 737 and 767. I am sure Icelandair would supply a 757 if a lessee requires one. The charter operation offers mostly 757 in the Icelandic off season.

Not sure what you're point is. Lot's of airlines switch types. I'm pretty sure they don't do wet leasing in B737's. They owned a subsidiary in the Czech Republic that did that once and perhaps they still have some planes on their balance sheet. But they are not active operators of B737's for passenger flights.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9909
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 45):
There is no direct replacement. The A321LR is the closest you can get and for a while, IMO.

Correction: There is no direct replacement yet.

But FI can afford to play the waiting game. Boeing may end up very well end up launching something that can easily replace their 757's + possibly give them slightly more (without being overkill like the 788/A338). If nothing every comes out of that then FI will eventually order the A321.

A.net has shiny jet syndrome. An airline must order the new plane now! Smart airlines don't fall for that. FI has no issues operating older aircraft (in terms of age, not generation). Yes the Neo is more fuel efficient than the 757, but I guarantee you that FI's 757s are a lot cheaper to own than what Airbus is willing to sell the A321LR for (especially since it has no direct competition) and having the most fuel efficient fleet is a little less critical when fuel prices are low.

It is the same reasons why the A321LR has not yet been bombarded with orders from DL, UA, AA and others so far. No need to jump the gun and make a rash decision. FI (and others) are in a position to wait, and possible have direct input into Boeing's A321LR response to shape it into something that would work even better for them. There are some cons to being the first mover, and pros to being the respondent  Wink

[Edited 2015-11-17 08:27:16]
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 45):
I think the reason they made the wrong decision is that they let the price and financing of the deal overrule the technical aspect of which aircraft would serve them better on their route network.

But doesn't that happen in many RFP's? It's part of the balancing act when making any purchase.

Now, if the A32Xneo could have done everything their current fleet does, I'd probably be more in agreement as I don't care what they fly. But absent that, they then had to weigh a number of different factors, including the fact that at the end of the day whatever they bought wouldn't remove the 757 from the fleet. Therefore, in some respects, it was not just A vs B but $ vs $$. And B/$ won out over A/$$ apparently.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 45):
Essentially, the conservative decision.

Sometimes that's what it comes down to. There are certainly plenty of airlines in the world that have thrown caution to the wind in their buying decisions. Frankly, conservative for a carrier like FI probably is also prudent.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 45):
There is no direct replacement. The A321LR is the closest you can get and for a while, IMO.

True.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1251
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 46):
including the fact that at the end of the day whatever they bought wouldn't remove the 757 from the fleet.

The ONLY thing that will that will end the continued use of the 757 is old age, high maintenance costs including the availability of replacement parts.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9202
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: How Could FI Replace 752's With 737 MAX?

Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 45):
You're a bit of a know it all. I find it quite annoying. Especially, your endless talk about fish. You were after all the one that started that. I've never said that the B737MAX is replacing the B757. I've said that whatever aircraft they get they need the range to be as long as possible so that they can serve North American destinations. The A321 does that for them.

Right back your compliment. If I talk about fish, that is because I am connected to the fish industry. Selling fresh fish flown out mainly by Icelandair is the new moneymaker in the industry. It was about 30,000 metric tons of fish last year and a very big part of the whole freight flown from Iceland, over 90% of the freight originating here. Icelandair has only 2 dedicated 757-200 cargo frames left and is steadily increasing belly freight. If you have no idea about that, stop mouthing of your ignorance.

[Edited 2015-11-17 15:47:59]

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